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thedrifter
05-19-07, 07:50 AM
Man for man, are European troops better than US troops?
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I got the idea for this thread from the “Cowboys” thread Rockymtnclimber started a couple of months ago. One of the ideas that emerged was that Europeans believe that man for man European soldiers are more professional and more effective than American troops. In their minds, American troops are “loud and trigger happy” and espouse a “shoot first and ask questions later” philosophy when it comes to military operations.

A number of European and at least one Canadian poster weighed in on this subject, and there seems to be a general, almost universal, consensus in Europe that the average American soldier is inferior to the average soldier from Western or Northern Europe. The Germans sneer at our supposed armored superiority. The French claim that the US Marines would be no match for the French Foreign Legion. The British feel that the average British Army infantryman is a better soldier than your average US Marine infantryman, much less any Army infantryman.

The Europeans concede that the US military is way ahead of Europe in early detection technology, naval warfare and carrier aircraft, and our air force (although they dispute that US Air Force pilots are better that European pilots), but they claim that without these advantages American troops wouldn’t stand a chance against French, British, German, or even Canadian or Swedish troops in a fair fight. One European poster claimed that European troops could have accomplished what we did in Iraq in half the time.

Most Europeans tend to place a lot of the blame on how we train our soldiers. They take issue with the whole “we’re the best and can kick anybody’s @$$” philosophy that we instill in our troops from the minute they step off the bus in basic training. As far as many Europeans are concerned, this philosophy isn’t just improper, it’s morally wrong, and is just one of the characteristics that prevent American troops from living up to their potential.

Here’s my question: Man for man, are European troops probably better than your average US soldier? If so, what makes American troops less professional and less effective than European troops? Please provide examples, not just theories. For you Europeans, what could America do to produce troops more on par with European troops?

I’ve said this before, but I’ll say it again: Let’s keep this one civil. This is not a “US vs. Europe” thread. I want to hear opinions from US military veterans that may have served with European troops as well as European veterans that have served with Americans. I’ll just kind of sit back and read what everyone has to say before I throw in my own opinions, but I’ll intercede if it starts getting personal.

Ellie

maverickmarine
05-19-07, 08:39 AM
I personally have trained with and in some limited cases been on ops with various members of the British military both SAS and Royale Marines and I didn't notice any real DIFFERENCE other than the obvious differences in how we use the English language. From my experience both sides found the other to be very professional. This of course was with what is considered "The Elite", of both sides but having my biased for the USMC I would of course consider us to be the better fighting man. I don't know enough though about the general training of their regular Marines or Soldiers to speak intelligently about their level of training or preparedness. The only foreign military unit that I trained with that I find to be quite different and if fact crazy are the ROK Marines. Those guys are just plain nuts!

FistFu68
05-19-07, 08:55 AM
:evilgrin: THOSE BASTARD'S COULDN'T WIPE THE FUDGE OUTTA OUR SKIVVIES,I WAS NOT IMPRESSED BY BRITISH (POW'S) IN THIS LAST IRIAIAN FIASCO!!!JUST ANOTHER AZZ-HOLES OPIONION.....S/F :evilgrin: :iwo:

FistFu68
05-19-07, 11:57 AM
:usmc: WE ARE UNITED STATES MARINES,WE OUT FIGHT,WE OUT DRINK,WE OUT SWEAR,WE OUT FUC,WE JUST OUT EVERYONE!!!!!:usmc: THAT INCLUDES YOU,LITTLE KIM-CHEE EATIN TURD!!!:D

Sgt Leprechaun
05-19-07, 02:19 PM
I do believe this be the same attitude that the "lowly 'murkans' have been up against since at LEAST the French and Indian wars. And, the 'experts' have been proven wrong every-single-time...much to their chagrin. The Rev War Brits thought nothing of the 'grubby' Colonial Militia.

The WWI German troops didn't believe that "American Infantry" could be such crack shots...much to their dismay at a place called Bellau Wood.

The WWII Germans, and Japanese, troops, believed themselves vastly superior to American forces, by virtue of their 'superior training' 'combat prowess' 'intellect', etc.

The Red Army during the cold war had no doubt they could beat the 'decadent' Americans.


And, so it goes.

outlaw3179
05-19-07, 03:33 PM
We trained with the Dutch a few years back . Ill be honest with you, as far as physical , those guys are studs. On runs they would smoke the Marines. On the obstacle courses they would finish them like they were nothing. So at first we started getting down on ourselves , but when it came down to tactics, and fire and maneuver, we without a doubt killed them. They couldnt keep up with us, or do anything to stop us. We were at a MOUT facility in Kentucky and they couldnt control us when they sent us in to clear it and they were the defenders. It was pretty awesome. Average height of theese lurches was about 6'2. So I dont know if that payed into but I dont think that they're better than us.

Sgt Leprechaun
05-19-07, 03:55 PM
Exactly. The Germans march far better than we do. They built a far better heavy tank, and had a jet fighter long before we did. The Japanese Zero fighter outperformed most US fighters until well into WWII. The German Tiger tank was the best heavy tank in the world at D-Day. Standard US Tank tactics required 4 Sherman tanks to assault 1 tiger.

But you know what? We beat em. Every-single-one of em.

We beat them fair and square, in stand up fights, and everywhere else.

And, for those who might believe that we no longer "possess such men", I would beg to differ. Every generation of 'furrnurs' seem to think that about the US fighting man.

And we continue, without fail, to make widows and wailing mothers of their women.

ggyoung
05-19-07, 06:23 PM
Now for my take on this. Yes it did take a average of 4 Sherman tanks to take out one Tiger tank. But 3 of those 4 Shermans were killed doing it. The sherman was a pile of sh!!t. Ask the old tank vets. The Sherman was great for the Marines and army fighting the japs but not the Germans. Next the German air forse now days. A few years ago ( like 4 or 5) at Key West Fl. there was a joint air war game. The German Lufwafa( I know that is spelled wrong) useing Mig 29's kicked the USAF butt. Notice the Mig 29 can land on make shift runways and old roads. All of the Migs can do this. We have only one and The U.S. Marines fly that one. And we are still using that damn m-16. That 223 round sucks. But when it comes down to everything the good old US of A can and will kick everybodys ass if they would just turne us lose.

3077India
05-19-07, 06:39 PM
...Please provide examples,...

...I want to hear opinions from US military veterans that may have served with European troops as well as European veterans that have served with Americans.
THOSE BASTARD'S COULDN'T WIPE THE FUDGE OUTTA OUR SKIVVIES,I WAS NOT IMPRESSED BY BRITISH (POW'S) IN THIS LAST IRIAIAN FIASCO!!!JUST ANOTHER AZZ-HOLES OPIONION.....S/F
WE ARE UNITED STATES MARINES,WE OUT FIGHT,WE OUT DRINK,WE OUT SWEAR,WE OUT FUC,WE JUST OUT EVERYONE!!!!!

THAT INCLUDES YOU,LITTLE KIM-CHEE EATIN TURD!!!
Oh well so much for providing examples and opinions. :p :confused:

bootlace15
05-19-07, 08:19 PM
Rockymtnclimer,cowboy and your self can go fuk yourselves. Why would you put this sh!t on this site. Find Hitler and the other aszwipes and ask them how good the US troops are. As for the Marines we do what we are trained to do...Kill ****** aszholes,especialy those that doubt us............Find Sadam and ask him...........Then go to Iwo for a vacation and hope I'm not there......

Tet you

bootlace 15 out

FistFu68
05-19-07, 09:23 PM
:evilgrin: YO 3077,I WAS WITH 3 DIFFERENT MARINE DIVISION'S;WAS ALL OVER THIS FRIGGING PLANET AS A MARINE RIFLEMAN!!!DID NATO,KOREA,WITH THE AUSSIE'S.GOT MY CHERRY BUSTED IN THE 'NAM AS A FRIGGING GRUNT,TO START MY 5YR'S IN THE USMC.HELL THE BEST PART OF YOU'R YOUNG AZZ,RAN DOWN YOU'R MAMA'S LEG THERE DEC.1968.(LMFAO)SO IMPRESS ME MARINE?????:evilgrin:

jinelson
05-19-07, 09:34 PM
Whoah Marines stand down thedrifter posted this thread from another site. No one here is saying this crap! I will see if I can find out what site it is and declare a free fire zone. OORAH!!!

Jim

3077India
05-19-07, 09:53 PM
YO 3077,I WAS WITH 3 DIFFERENT MARINE DIVISION'S;WAS ALL OVER THIS FRIGGING PLANET AS A MARINE RIFLEMAN!!!DID NATO, KOREA, WITH THE AUSSIE'S.GOT MY CHERRY BUSTED IN THE 'NAM AS A FRIGGING GRUNT,TO START MY 5YR'S IN THE USMC.HELL THE BEST PART OF YOU'R YOUNG AZZ,RAN DOWN YOU'R MAMA'S LEG [movie quote, real original] THERE DEC.1968.(LMFAO)SO IMPRESS ME MARINE????? YOU DON"T HAVE TO YELL AT ME! I wasn't yelling at you before.

Glad to know that you served your country and I don't belittle anyone's military service to their country; I am pro-military and pro-veteran and support our troops 1000%, but all that aside you still haven't answered TheDrifter's question:
...Here’s my question: Man for man, are European troops probably better than your average US soldier? If so, what makes American troops less professional and less effective than European troops? Please provide examples, not just theories. For you Europeans, what could America do to produce troops more on par with European troops?

...I want to hear opinions from US military veterans that may have served with European troops as well as European veterans that have served with Americans...Can you provide specific examples that would refute any assertions that European soldiers are better than Americans? If so, let us know.

Now if you've taken anything I said before as insulting, that is regrettable, since that wasn't my intention (maybe sarcastically or ironically). ...BUT I DIGRESS!

3077India
05-19-07, 09:55 PM
Whoah Marines stand down thedrifter posted this thread from another site. No one here is saying this crap! I will see if I can find out what site it is and declare a free fire zone. OORAH!!!

JimROGER THAT! :marine:

cturner
05-20-07, 10:00 PM
A couple weeks ago, some Marines in my unit got back from a trip to Scotland to train with the Royal Marines. Their opinion was that, although as far as PT went they were fine, but when it came to tactics, it was a sad sight. The example they gave me was this: the way the Royal Marines teach immediate / remedial action is to shake it, hit it a couple times, slam the mag in and out a couple times, and then try again. That did it for me.

DougRagan
05-21-07, 03:51 AM
Are they better? Why don't we ask Iran what they think of UK Marines? That story would have been different if it had been U.S. Marines. The headlines would have read, "Jarheads start war with Iran. Handful of U.S. Marines have already swam to shore and taken Tehran. President Bush to issue statement just as soon as the Pentagon figures out what happened."

I would have to agree with one of my old DIs. The only group better would be the ROK Marines. Those guys are just angry, and they know karate and such. The ROK DIs are still allowed to knock a recruit on his backside.

Quinbo
05-21-07, 08:55 AM
Had occasion to cross train with the Ghurkas and I'll say they are some tough fukers. Chatted with their sergeant for a while and learned that it is a village honor to go into the Ghurkas and they walk to boot camp. Sometimes as much as a thousand miles just to get there. They get paid every six weeks and libbo on payday. The rest of the time they train. I guess it is true that the sun never sets on the english empire.

ggyoung
05-21-07, 10:58 AM
The VC were scarred sh!! less of them ROK Marines. The NVA wanted nothing to do with them. You ask why? They did not have any "ROE". The Ghurkas were just plane damn mean. If I had to share a fighting hole with a sh!! for branes Marine or a sh!! head ROC Marine or a sh!! head Ghurka I would take one of the last 2.

lucien2
05-21-07, 11:26 AM
I trained with and have the following opinions about;

1) British Royal Marines - Just as agressive as US Marines and almost as good.
2) Italian Army - Joke.
3) Norweigan Army - Cocky and incompetent, what a combo!

There is a reason why the US has the best fighting forces in the world.

Say no more!

Zulu 36
05-21-07, 03:22 PM
The VC were scarred sh!! less of them ROK Marines. The NVA wanted nothing to do with them. You ask why? They did not have any "ROE". The Ghurkas were just plane damn mean. If I had to share a fighting hole with a sh!! for branes Marine or a sh!! head ROC Marine or a sh!! head Ghurka I would take one of the last 2.

I had some dealings with Royal Marines and I found them, in general, in better physical shape than US Marines, but about equal in tactical skills. US Marines might be a bit better with individual rifle marksmanship.

ROK Marines I met were really nice guys - to US Marines. Anyone else was forfeit. They acted like wound-up springs ready to go.

In Vietnam we had a battalion of ROK Army nearby for a couple of months. They were plenty tough too and we got along with them well. They were welcome in our clubs anytime and we in theirs. I watched two ROK Army guys kick the dog **** out of six VN Air Force idiots. Kick literally, no hands used. It gets really bloody to be kicked in the head with a combat boot heel by a pro. I was impressed.

Italian Army and Air Force security forces - I disagree with lucien2. There must be a word stronger than "joke." Like "helpless?" The Carabineri are better and they are primarily a police force.

Ghurkas I met once in Okinawa in 1972. They were on R&R from Hong Kong. Really nice guys, friendly, but exuded "tough" out of every pore. The NCOs could speak pretty fair English (a promotion requirement). The younger troops hardly had any English yet, but my Ghurkali was pretty weak too, so we were even. :D

I also met some Black Watch fellows on Okinawa. They were friendly, hard to understand, but friendly. They were on R&R too, so I couldn't judge their skills.

FistFu68
05-21-07, 03:35 PM
:evilgrin: WERE YOU EVER IN COMBAT,ON THE GROUND WITH ANY OF THE ABOVE MENTIONED?I WAS,IN NUMERIOUS SEARCH AND DESTROY MISSION'S.FIGHTING IN A BAR, IS ONE THING GOING UP AGAINST;A DUG IN N.V.A REGIMENT IS ANOTHER!!!NONE BUT THE AUSSIE'S IMPRESSED ME,IN COMBAT NOT SOME HEAR SAY BULLCHIT!THE ROK'S HAD A HABIT OF HEADING THE OTHER WAY,WHEN RPG'S STARTED COMING THEIR WAY!TAKE THE BATTLE OF MEADE RIVER FOR AN EXAMPLE,THEY FUCEN;BUGGED OUT.:evilgrin: :iwo:

drumcorpssnare
05-21-07, 03:56 PM
From a historical perspective, the U.S. Marine Corps is, in my opinion, the finest fighting force in the world.
Now, have there been other groups or individuals who fought with extraordinary valor and tenacity? Of course! History is full of examples where great fighting men overcame impossible odds, to win the day.
Can any fighting organization rightfully claim they NEVER lost a battle? None that I can think of. (I'm talkin' battles; not skirmishes)
There are a few though, with long histories, whose losses you could count without takin' your shoes and socks off!

The U.S. Marine Corps is one. The Black Watch is another.
drumcorpssnare:usmc:

lucien2
05-21-07, 04:39 PM
I had some dealings with Royal Marines and I found them, in general, in better physical shape than US Marines, but about equal in tactical skills. US Marines might be a bit better with individual rifle marksmanship.

ROK Marines I met were really nice guys - to US Marines. Anyone else was forfeit. They acted like wound-up springs ready to go.

In Vietnam we had a battalion of ROK Army nearby for a couple of months. They were plenty tough too and we got along with them well. They were welcome in our clubs anytime and we in theirs. I watched two ROK Army guys kick the dog **** out of six VN Air Force idiots. Kick literally, no hands used. It gets really bloody to be kicked in the head with a combat boot heel by a pro. I was impressed.

Italian Army and Air Force security forces - I disagree with lucien2. There must be a word stronger than "joke." Like "helpless?" The Carabineri are better and they are primarily a police force.

Ghurkas I met once in Okinawa in 1972. They were on R&R from Hong Kong. Really nice guys, friendly, but exuded "tough" out of every pore. The NCOs could speak pretty fair English (a promotion requirement). The younger troops hardly had any English yet, but my Ghurkali was pretty weak too, so we were even. :D

I also met some Black Watch fellows on Okinawa. They were friendly, hard to understand, but friendly. They were on R&R too, so I couldn't judge their skills.

Thanks for the clarification, I guess I was being to generous to those sh!tbirds!

10thzodiac
05-22-07, 02:03 PM
"The Allied soldier never seemed to be trained as we were, always to try to do more than had been asked of us."

-Obergefreiter Adolf Hihenstein, German 276th Inf Div

CanadianSoldier
03-19-08, 10:20 PM
Was just wondering which Black Watch regiment you were speaking about, the UK one, or the Canadian one?