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thedrifter
04-29-07, 06:41 AM
AT WAR
Certified Madness
America might not have beaten the Japanese if Jack Murtha had been around.

BY BRUCE BERKOWITZ
Sunday, April 29, 2007 12:01 a.m. EDT

One of the more interesting sections of the war funding bill Congress will soon send President Bush is its provision for "readiness." The bill prohibits spending funds "to deploy any unit of the Armed Forces to Iraq unless the chief of the military department concerned has certified in writing . . . that the unit is fully mission capable."

Rep. John Murtha (D., Pa.), chairman of the House subcommittee on defense appropriations, is mainly responsible for the clause. Mr. Murtha is a Marine Vietnam combat veteran and he's concerned that U.S. forces don't have all the resources they need to complete their missions.

U.S. Navy Ensign George Gay would have been bemused.

Ensign Gay became famous in World War II as the sole survivor of Torpedo Eight, a squadron flying off of the USS Hornet in the pivotal Battle of Midway. If ever there was a unit of the armed forces that wasn't "mission capable," it was Torpedo Eight.

In June 1942, the Navy's new torpedo bomber, the Grumman TBF Avenger, wasn't ready. So Ensign Gay and the other Americans had to fly old Douglas TBD Devastators, an aircraft that was inadequate for the task of taking on Japanese fighters.

A Devastator's top speed was about 200 mph. The Japanese interceptors--Zeros--could do around 350 mph. That's correct, the Japanese pilots had an advantage of about 150 miles per hour.

But Ensign Gay's bigger problem was training. "When we finally got up to the Battle of Midway it was the first time I had ever carried a torpedo on an aircraft," he later told a Navy interviewer, "and was the first time I had ever taken a torpedo off of a ship, had never even seen it done. None of the other ensigns in the squadron had either."

Ensign Gay and the others got the attack plan in "chalk talks" and then rehearsed the attack by walking through the steps on the flight deck.

Not a single TBD flying that day from the Hornet made it back. Ensign Gay was the only one of the 30 men in his squadron who survived the attack and he had to be fished from the sea a day after the battle. The TBDs from the other two American carriers suffered similar losses.

But by drawing the Zeros to themselves, the slow, low-flying Devastators gave U.S. dive bombers a clear shot to strike from above. The dive bombers sank three of the four Japanese carriers, a loss that decided the outcome of a battle that proved to be turning point in the war in the Pacific.

Which gets us back to Mr. Murtha's readiness provision.

Lt. Gay (he was promoted) later briefed the events to a Navy interviewer. He described the situation, succinctly, as "a difficult problem."

"We had old planes and we were new," the pilot recalled. "We had a dual job of not only training a squadron of boot Ensigns," he said, "we also had to fight the war at the same time."

In fact, training and fighting became one and the same. Ensign Gay's squadron leader told him and the others to follow him to the target, and then they figured out a way to get through the flack when they got there.

Ensign Gay and the other pilots knew they were ill-equipped and under-trained. But they flew the mission anyway because they also knew that something larger was at stake--like losing the war if they waited until someone was willing to "certify in writing" that they met official readiness standards.

It's unfortunate, and often tragic, but that's what happens in war, or at least one that you are serious about. And that's the issue. Are we serious about the war? Can anyone imagine Congress in 1942 passing a provision like the one in the current bill? Would they constrain Gen. Dwight D. Eisenhower the way they propose to constrain Gen. David H. Petraeus?

Mr. Murtha has good intentions, but he's got it exactly wrong. If U.S. forces lack the equipment or training they need, it's his job, as the chairman of the one subcommittee specifically responsible for originating defense appropriations, to make sure they get it.

If legislators really don't believe we should continue in Iraq, they need to come clean, shut down the war--and accept the risks, and take responsibility for the consequences. Otherwise, they need to provide U.S. forces the means to carry out their missions.

Ellie

semperfi170
04-29-07, 07:49 AM
How can anybody expect him do his job? It seems that all he wants is the publicity along with the rest of his ilk in Congress. He is not doing what is best for the Country and the men & women serving it. I guess murtha believes all things can be done according to a schedule once a war is being fought and every military person can receive training as they would during peace time. Personally, I believe murtha is SENILE - therefore out of touch with reality!

10thzodiac
04-29-07, 09:08 PM
1) The Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor ready or not. Sorry we're not ready yet !

2) We attacked Iraq ready or not. Not ready yet !

"As you know, you go to war with the Army you have. They're not the Army you might want or wish to have at a later time." ~ Donald Rumsfeld

Is there a difference between 1 and 2 ???

Note: General John Abizaid, the head of U.S. forces in Iraq, said he couldn't "answer for the record why we started this war with protective vests that were in short supply."

Even the small contingent of troops that Mongolia sent to Iraq came with the lifesaving vests

Our troops had been issued Vietnam era flak jackets that, as one soldier put it, "couldn't stop a rock !

A secret Pentagon study has found that as many as 80 percent of the Marines who have been killed in Iraq from wounds to the upper body could have survived if they had had extra body armor. Such armor has been available since 2003, but until recently the Pentagon has largely declined to supply it to troops despite calls from the field for additional protection, according to military officials.


secret Pentagon report (http://www.nytimes.com/2006/01/07/politics/07armor.html?ei=5090&en=ff21d2fbfcae4825&ex=1294290000&partner=rssuserland&emc=rss&pagewanted=print)

DougRagan
04-30-07, 02:17 AM
I was in from 93 - 98 and can't remember being fully mission capable one day.

Sgt Leprechaun
04-30-07, 07:47 AM
"Extra body armor". Any idea how much that "extra body armor" weighs?

There comes a time when we have to recognize this is a dangerous line of work, and act accordingly. Read "The Soldiers load and the mobility of a nation".

Flak vests aren't desgined to stop bullets, but shrapnel. Those who expect them to do so didn't bother to read the tag on the inside.

Interestingly, when I was with 24th MEU in 99, our equipment was NOT Vietnam vintage stuff. It was new. We got new boots, new packs (which were MOLLE crap but that's not the point), new kevlar.

That of course, doesn't mean we were fully 'mission capable', since we towed 2 humvees aboard the Nashville that remained there the entire float.

Since we are spitballing here, name ONE war or conflict we were EVER prepared for.

Just one.

10thzodiac
04-30-07, 09:04 AM
I was in from 93 - 98 and can't remember being fully mission capable one day.

When I was flown into Cuba during the Missile Crisis, we had no food except peanut butter & bread, half frozen milk and off bran warm soda for the first few days. No .45 ammo, and that was my TO weapon http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/mesg/tsmileys2/02.gif

Besides having to push un-operable six-bys on to the ships before going to Vietnam in '64 (9th MEB, 7000 Marines) there wasn't enough rifle ammunition for the 3500 Marines offshore at Saigon. When we split off and left 3500 Marines at DaNang off shore, they left the rifle ammo up there with them. Our riflemen at Saigon only had 14 rounds apiece if we went ashore. We had plenty of artillery shells on my ship in the south, but the artillery pieces were up north. My ship (USS Magoffin) was suppose to go into Saigon harbor and dock with all that High Explosive on it, if they hit us you could of heard the exposion on the other side of the world ! I worked in Marine Message center and saw it all. Military intelligence is an oxymoron.

To make things worse, albeit minor, one of our Marines went wacky and started throwing critical machine gun parts over board and later jumped overboard at night and started swimming to shore on his rubber lady. WTF

OLE SARG
04-30-07, 09:15 AM
ms murtha is a senile ole idiot. I believe I saw a flyer and his village is looking for him!!!!!

SEMPER FI,

drumcorpssnare
04-30-07, 01:33 PM
Christ!, had Murtha been around in WW II, the Wearmacht would have been goose-stepping down Pennsylvania Ave., and the Japanese occupying the Presidio, before he stopped to think, "WTF???"

Some little snot-nosed 95 lb. wash-out from Marine Corps bootcamp needs to kick his azz!:evilgrin:
drumcorpssnare:usmc:

10thzodiac
04-30-07, 07:54 PM
Major General Smedley D. Butler USMC on the threat of a foreign enemies successfully invading America

In opposing the re-militarization of American foreign policy, he called for a viable defense exclusive of imperialistic capabilities. With existing US. military capability, no foreign enemy or likely coalition could invade America. It would take a force of at least a million men to invade a nation of 130 million. They would have to arrive all at once to be effective. There was not enough shipping in the entire world to transport such a force across 3,000 miles of ocean in a period of ten days. In the last war it had taken four months, using the enemy's biggest ships as well, to get a million men to Europe. A strong US. coastal defense would be a final and insurmountable obstacle. In Woman's Home Companion, also in 1936, he advocated a constitutional amendment to prohibit removal of armed forces from the continental United States and Panama Canal, and to restrict warships to within 500 miles of the coast and aircraft to within 700 miles, somewhat extended from distances proposed in War Is a Racket. The real danger of war was American military adventurism, not foreign invasion. http://coat.ncf.ca/our_magazine/links/53/butler01-by_schmidt.html

OLE SARG
05-01-07, 08:51 AM
Translated still means ms murtha is a traitor, back-stabbing, pseudo-intellectual, piece of ****!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

SEMPER FI,