In the 1950's 30% of US employees were in manufacturing - almost 1 in 3 jobs

[jetdawgg]

In the 1950's 30% of US employees were in manufacturing - almost 1 in 3 jobs. This country was a relative manufacturing super power, we were the world's richest and most productive country. In 1994 approximately 1 in 8 jobs were in manufacturing. In 2014 if the US government (Bureau of Labor Statistics) projections are accurate that figure will have slipped to 1 in 12 jobs.

The government is telling us in black and white that the policies they are enacting will decrease both absolute and relative manufacturing employment to levels below that of the 1950's - over 2 million below.

In less than 20 years since America put in place some of its most self-devastating policy decisions (NAFTA, WTO, CAFTA, etc.), this country will have almost completely converted from a self-sufficient sovereign state, capable of manufacturing what it needs to sustain and protect itself, to a country of servants – serfs, working at the behest of foreign employers or engaged in the sales, marketing, and distribution of foreign-made goods – working at their discretion, for wages they determine, and forced to pay their prices for needed goods. This is the definition of a servant.

A country that ends up producing little of value will have little to consume at home and little to trade abroad, and will have a low standard of living. The way this country was built was by developing world-leading industries and dominating the markets for products that we invented. Now we have conceded that we are instead going to exist by selling our assets and eliminate most of our ability to produce for ourselves. This would make any country extremely vulnerable.

From 1994-2004, manufacturing was the second fastest job-losing sector in our economy (second only to agricultural employment). From 2004-2014, the government predicts that most of the employment growth will come from retail, health care, leisure and hospitality, government jobs, and “professional and business services.”

This country needs salespeople, waiters, attorneys, doctors, and managers. But how could we have ever built a superpower country on those professions alone?

Many say that we are shipping jobs overseas because they are too low-paying or too rudimentary. Anyone who has worked in factory operating a million-dollar piece of equipment can tell you the satisfying difference from being forced to work in a restaurant as a waiter because of lack of alternatives. Why would we send factory jobs overseas to replace them with jobs in retail and hospitality? Factories sustain communities. Retail and hospitality enriches absentee corporations and shareholders. Offshore outsourcing strips us of technology, taxes, profits, and career opportunities. Why would we choose that path as manufacturing jobs pay much more on average than service jobs?

Some other countries, like Japan, pay wages as high as or higher than America because their manufacturing is capital and knowledge intensive and requires fewer workers per unit of output. In addition, other countries like China that pay wages as low as 1/10 of ours, also does not have the same cost of living as the US. Their goods cost a fraction of what they cost here in America; therefore it is not possible to compare the wages on an absolute basis.

Many people also say education is the key. They say that not enough Americans are being trained for engineering, science, or production occupations. There is no point in educating people when there are no jobs – when these industries are being systematically and predatorily destroyed by foreign subsidized competition producing and operating both externally and here in this country through insourcing.

We are living in a fool’s paradise, being propped up by foreign loans to our government and foreign subsidized consumption of our incredulous trade deficits which is approaching $800 billion ($1.6 million per minute) this year alone..

The net takeaway of the Bureau of Labor Statistics report is that if you expect to earn a decent living by producing a product – any product – in this next 10 years, you will have little opportunity to do that in this country.


E-mail editor@economyincrisis.org (editor@economyincrisis.org)

http://www.economyincrisis.org/articles/show/1060

[semperfi170]

Since a good many of our companies have foreign investors and the boards want to ensure the investors will get a ROI, they will continue to send manufacturing jobs elsewhere. We still have to pay the higher prices however. I have always felt that some industries don't make sense to have here, if they can't be competitive. My concern is that we are not leading anymore in starting new industries and keeping the jobs here.

Business has to be restuctured and this includes the unions. I know that unions have done a lot of good, but now they are as big business as businesses themselves. There has to be a balance. But, it is real crock of s*** when even new inventions and industries are sent overseas because the cost of producing the goods is cheaper. Interesting enough it also includes the design work.

One of the problems is Congress and other politicians throughout our country.
Raising minimum wage doesn't increase wealth or jobs, money needs to be invested in R&D and infrastructure.


If we don't wake up the America we know will slide into a weak, third rate power. History does repeat itself!

[jetdawgg]

Since a good many of our companies have foreign investors and the boards want to ensure the investors will get a ROI, they will continue to send manufacturing jobs elsewhere. We still have to pay the higher prices however. I have always felt that some industries don't make sense to have here, if they can't be competitive. My concern is that we are not leading anymore in starting new industries and keeping the jobs here.

Business has to be restuctured and this includes the unions. I know that unions have done a lot of good, but now they are as big business as businesses themselves. There has to be a balance. But, it is real crock of s*** when even new inventions and industries are sent overseas because the cost of producing the goods is cheaper. Interesting enough it also includes the design work.

One of the problems is Congress and other politicians throughout our country.
Raising minimum wage doesn't increase wealth or jobs, money needs to be invested in R&D and infrastructure.


If we don't wake up the America we know will slide into a weak, third rate power. History does repeat itself!

Semperfi, I agree with you wholeheartedly. Our weak politicians continue to accept money from corporate interest that allow jobs to go overseas. Whatever happened to 'America First'?

We will all be flipping burgers if we don't stop the slide soon. Anytime I hear about NAFTA, Globalization, etc., I wonder how many jobs will be lost. I want to vote for men and women who will bring jobs back here.

Who will invest in educationa dn infrastructure. How can you be a leader if you don't produce, innovate or manufacter? We should in the very least start with energy independence as it will bring about new jobs and skill sets.

Along with keeping us from becoming tenth fiddle in a two fiddle band to the oil producing nations:usmc:

[Sgt Leprechaun]

Hmmm....NAFTA was pushed by Clinton and the dems.

On a side note to that, I agree, we've gone from an industrial style nation (factories, etc) to a consumer/tech style nation (ipods, cappucinos). I personally think this is a bad thing, I have for years.

Both parties are equally to blame here, there are no innocents. But, NAFTA was a big thing pushed by Clinton and co.

[davblay]

Anyone remember ROSS PAROT (spelling)?? his charts, his scales and his statement about NAFTA. He said "IF NAFTA IS PASSED AND ENACTED, WE WILL HEAR A HUGE SUCKING SOUND, AND THAT WILL BE AMERICAN JOBS GOING DOWN TO MEXICO", I believe that is correct. I may not have even spelled his name right, but get the point? The american people thought he was a nut! ;)

[davblay]

Hmmm....NAFTA was pushed by Clinton and the dems.

On a side note to that, I agree, we've gone from an industrial style nation (factories, etc) to a consumer/tech style nation (ipods, cappucinos). I personally think this is a bad thing, I have for years.

Both parties are equally to blame here, there are no innocents. But, NAFTA was a big thing pushed by Clinton and co.

I agree, whole heartedly, but it seemed like the thing to do at the time, I guess! LMAO!

[semperfi170]

BTW, Mexico has been experiencing a sucking sound the last couple of years ---manufacturing jobs going to India & China.

[10thzodiac]

DavBlay, this Marine didn't think Ross Perot was a nut ! I had his Campaign Sign in my front lawn and voted for him !!!

Corporations rule this Country and world. Corporations only know one thing, the bottom line. I had a corporation once too, I rode the coat-tails of my larger counter-parts and received benefits I wouldn't have otherwise as a sole-proprietor. My biggest incentive to incorporate was insulating myself from personal financial liability, providing I acted lawfully.

Corporations externalize. What does that mean ? In the lawful pursuit of the bottom line any consequences of their action is someone else's problem e.g. loss of jobs, ecology, benefits, etc. That's why corporations employ lobbyist and isolate presidential choices financially who you can vote for. Nothing like stacking the deck with law makers in your pocket http://www.leatherneck.com/forums/images/icons/icon7.gif

How many people have woke up in America and found out they lost their pensions, medical benefits, jobs because of externalization ? The President and Congress pushed a "no bid" Medicare Prescription plan into law. Do you think it really benefited anyone other than drug corporations ? You can receive the same drugs at Sam's Club or Costco for what the Government prescription plan cost the individual. The VA has also reneged on promises made to Veterans in my state, and I'm sure your state too. Illinois and refused to enroll hundreds of thousand of veterans that were promised medical benefits. Today myself, I'd be ineligible if I applied. So far I've been grandfathered because I enrolled earlier. When I become 65 January, I'm getting a private company Medicare Supplement Plan "F", rather relying on the VA for anything other than prescriptions, that is, if I'm even still eligible for that.

Ross Perot didn't need corporate money, he had his own. Ross Perot is a patriot, a maverick and wasn't afraid to say the "Emperor Has No Clothes !" He wasn't a "me too" agreeing with corporate America like the Clinton's and the Bush's of America.

Nobody is perfect, and I feel the powers to be found a skeleton in Ross Perot's closest which caused him to decide not to be President. Some say the Republicans were going to smear his daughter as the reason, I think it was allot more than that. Remember Ross Perot was a successful Corporate business man who made a killing when he took his Corporation public (sold stock).

As I said before here, I have Polish neighbors next door, and they have told me politely this Country has gone downhill since they came here. Their chief complaint, American money isn't worth what it use to be and on their return trips to Europe how the European's are taken back with our war on Iraq.

Personally, as soon as I become liquid in my investments, I'm going to diversify in strong economies that haven't lent money to the Worlds largest debtor nation that elects nit-wits ! No wonder Haliburton is going to Dubai. Hmmm, It would be interesting to know if they are getting into Euros that have appreciated big time against the green back.

As far as corporations go, has anybody ever thought, that in the wild if an animal was so clever and greedy gathering all the food [wealth] for itself, would that be right ? Well, not only do we reward corporations for that kind of behavior, we spill our children's blood and call it their duty, while we drive our gas guzzlers to the mall without second thought !

And old Wall Street axiom: "Trees do not grow to the sky !"


http://code0range.net/files/images/corporate_flag-1033.jpg

[OLE SARG]

I agree, whole heartedly, but it seemed like the thing to do at the time, I guess! LMAO!

To corrupt politicians (to include slick willie), anytime is the thing to do at any particular time (??). slick willie did a lot of things back then that are biting the USA in the ass now, to include hildabeast!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

SEMPER FI,

[10thzodiac]

To corrupt politicians (to include slick willie), anytime is the thing to do at any particular time (??). slick willie did a lot of things back then that are biting the USA in the ass now, to include hildabeast!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

SEMPER FI,

Clinton's might be allot of things, but they and the Democrats never cut your veterans benefits OLE SARGE, you can thank the republicans for cuts http://smileys.on-my-web.com/repository/Winks/tongue-wink.gif
<CENTER> </CENTER>
An OLD SARGE Marine cousin of mine "Peleliu" asked me to vote for his man, "Bill Clinton." I voted for Ross Perot.

[jetdawgg]

Moreover 10Z, the stock market is not any assistance at this time either. The fed continues to Xerox dollar bills, decreasing the value of the greenback:

http://goldsilver.com/the_dow_is_crashing.php

This is a nice read with a lot of graphs showing why the US economy is in trouble. Ever hear the idiots on tv say "if you take out oil and food there is no inflation"?

When I go to the gas station I can't say to the attendant "well I am taking out gasoline because..." Unrealistic terms define the economy. We have to bring this back to reality.:usmc:

[OLE SARG]

No, slick willie and company just made our military SO SMALL and IMPOTENT we are still recovering from that. You have to admit slick willie is NO FRIEND of the military (although his wifey looks like a first sergeant who has been beat with a ****ing ugly TREE).

SEMPER FI,

[jetdawgg]

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=3 width="97%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=gen vAlign=baseline>by Phyllis Schlafly</TD><TD class=gen align=right>April 18, 2007</TD></TR><TR><TD colSpan=2>http://www.eagleforum.org/gif/cleardot.gif</TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top colSpan=2><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 align=right border=0><TBODY><TR><TD vAlign=top><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1 width=202 align=right border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=gensm vAlign=top></TD></TR><TR><TD class=gensm> </TD></TR><TR><TD class=gen align=middle><TABLE cellSpacing=3 cellPadding=3 width=200 align=center border=0><TBODY><TR><TD align=middle><SCRIPT type=text/javascript><!--google_ad_client = "pub-6838394476841661";google_alternate_ad_url = "http://www.eagleforum.org/ssi/FR1.html";google_ad_width = 160;google_ad_height = 600;google_ad_format = "160x600_as";google_ad_type = "text_image";google_ad_channel ="4485533790";google_color_border = "D20000";google_color_bg = "FFFFFF";google_color_link = "000000";google_color_url = "666666";google_color_text = "333333";//--></SCRIPT><SCRIPT src="http://pagead2.googlesyndication.com/pagead/show_ads.js" type=text/javascript></SCRIPT></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><!-- BEGIN MasterWebpageMailer --><!-- BEGIN_PRINTER_FRIENDLY_COPY -->On the first day that H-1B visas became available, the corporations snapped up all that are allowed. Our government received 150,000 applications for the 85,000 slots set aside to bring in foreign skilled workers.


The corporations whine that H-1Bs are needed because of a shortage of Americans with skills, but major studies at UC-Davis and Duke universities conclusively prove we have thousands of unemployed or underemployed Americans with all needed technical skills. Nobel economist Milton Friedman accurately labeled H-1Bs a government "subsidy" to enable employers to get workers at a lower wage.

The best way to deal with the demand for a limited number of H-1Bs would be to auction them off, so then we would find out if they are really needed and how much they are worth. An auction would enable the taxpayers to get some return on the H-1B subsidy instead of the current system which allows corporations to influence Congressmen with campaign contributions and pay high-priced lobbyists to get legislation to increase the number.

Contrary to corporate propaganda, H-1Bs are not an alternative to outsourcing skilled jobs but a vehicle to promote outsourcing. H-1Bs enable corporations to bring in foreigners, train them in American ways, and then send them back to guide outsourced plants in Asia.

For years we've been told that it's OK for our manufacturing jobs to be outsourced overseas because the United States will always keep the technology, engineering, innovative, service-industry and white-collar jobs. Even when service-industry jobs began to be outsourced, we were told, those are just low-skill tasks like answering customer inquiries.
It turns out that was all a lie. The high-skill and technical jobs are also rapidly moving overseas, especially to India.

Boeing now employs hundreds of Indians for aircraft engineering, writing software for next-generation cockpits and systems to prevent aircraft collisions. Investment banks like Morgan Stanley are hiring Indians to analyze American stocks and to write reports for institutional investors, jobs formerly done by Americans earning six-figure salaries on Wall Street.

Eli Lilly is doing major pharmaceutical research in India. Cisco Systems, the leading maker of communications equipment, will have 20 percent of its top talent in India within five years, and global-consulting giant Accenture will have more employees in India than in the United States by the end of this year.

I.B.M. reduced its American work force by 31,000 while increasing its Indian staff to 52,000. Citigroup, which already has 22,000 employees in India, plans to eliminate 26,000 jobs in the U.S. and increase its Asian work force by another 10,000 where the pay is lower.

Follow the money, of course, explains this massive shift in jobs. It's cheaper to hire and produce in India than in the United States.
The unhappy results of these policies are now apparent; they richly benefit the corporations but are devastating to the American middle class. Outsourcing reduces good American jobs, our standard of living, our national security, and our world leadership.

This massive change in our economy should be front-page news, but you have to look on the lower half of the inside pages of pro-globalism newspapers like the New York Times to find the facts. It was a real surprise when the Wall Street Journal (always a big supporter of free trade, globalism, and open borders) published a front-page article called "Pain from Free Trade Spurs Second Thoughts (http://online.wsj.com/article_email/SB117500805386350446-lMyQjAxMDE3NzE1OTAxMDk4Wj.html)."

This article reported that one of the most prominent advocates of free trade, Professor Alan Blinder, now says that free trade can put 30 to 40 million American jobs at risk, mostly from outsourcing.

Blinder is one of America's most influential economists. A professor at Princeton University with a Ph.D. from MIT, he is a former Federal Reserve vice chairman and adviser to several presidents. For years, he has been peddling the notion that free trade enriches the United States.
Professor Blinder just got around to looking at the facts, and the facts changed his views. He ranked 817 occupations to identify how likely each one is to go overseas.

The most vulnerable jobs are bookkeepers, accountants, computer programmers, data entry keyers, medical transcriptionists, graphic designers, and financial analysts. Blinder now says that the millions of American jobs that have already gone to Asia are "only the tip of a very big iceberg."

Dr. Blinder is not the only prestigious economist who is having second thoughts. Nobel Laureate Paul Samuelson, who wrote the principal textbook used in university economics classes, is also now criticizing globalization and admitting that rich countries aren't always winners from free trade.

Most of the Democrats who won in November 2006 talked a lot about the issue of jobs, while the Republicans who lost kept mouthing the tired old mantra that globalism is both good and inevitable. Republicans can't win the White House in 2008 without Pennsylvania, Ohio or Wisconsin, all of which have lost thousands of jobs to outsourcing.

http://www.eagleforum.org/column/2007/apr07/07-04-18.html<!-- END_PRINTER_FRIENDLY_COPY -->
</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

[Sgt Leprechaun]

My answer to this?

Unions. They've priced themselves OUT of the competitive market. Thus, if a company can offshore to someplace that will work cheaper, with fewer labor disputes, they are going to do it. Now, we've made it easier for them to do it.

Note that lots of the jobs 'going overseas' are jobs that can be done thru 'telecommuting' as well.

And, IMO, Republicans who jumped on the 'globalization' bandwagon were idiots. I said that back when NAFTA first came out, and continue to say it today. However, the dems bear equal blame here. Clinton pushed it. Against the advice of the unions (can you blame them?) and others...but he got it thru...with help from Republicans.

[jetdawgg]

And Gates wants more visas. This has got to stop now.

[jetdawgg]

WASHINGTON (AP) - Three weeks ago, Dawn Zimmer became a statistic. Laid off from her job assembling trucks at Freightliner's plant in Portland, Ore., she and 800 of her colleagues joined a long line of U.S. manufacturing workers who have lost jobs in recent years. A total of 3.2 million—one in six factory jobs—have disappeared since the start of 2000.


Many people believe those jobs will never come back.

"They are building a multimillion-dollar plant in Mexico and they are going to build the Freightliners down there. They came in and videotaped us at work so they could train the Mexican workers," said Zimmer, 55, who had worked at Freightliner since 1994.

That's the issue for American workers. Many of their jobs are moving overseas, to Mexico and China and elsewhere.
Just ask Tom Riegel.

He worked for 27 years making Pennsylvania House furniture at a factory in Lewisburg, Pa., until the plant shut down in December 2004. The production was moved to a plant in China, which kept making the furniture under the Pennsylvania House label for shipment back to the United States.

Rigel, 48, who has had health problems, hasn't worked since he lost his job running a molding machine. He says his prospects aren't good given the number of other furniture plants in the area that have suffered layoffs.

"It started with just a few pieces of furniture made in China. Then it snowballed," he said. "Manufacturing was built on the back of the American worker and then boom—one day your job is gone."

Even though manufacturing jobs have been declining, the country is enjoying the lowest average unemployment rates of the past four decades. The reason: the growth in the service industries—everything from hotel chambermaids to skilled heart surgeons.

Eighty-four percent of Americans in the labor force are employed in service jobs, up from 81 percent in 2000. The sector has added 8.78 million jobs since the beginning of 2000.

Although these workers have been largely sheltered from the global forces that have hit manufacturing, that could change as satellites and fiber optic cable drive down the cost of long-distance communication. Today it is call centers in India and the Philippines but tomorrow many more U.S. jobs could move off shore.

Some economists say the United States is experiencing a normal economic evolution from farms to factories and now to service jobs.

"Every advanced economy has seen its employment in agriculture and manufacturing decline relative to services and America is no exception," said Daniel Griswold (http://search.breitbart.com/q?s=%22Daniel+Griswold%22&sid=breitbart.com), an economist at the Cato Institute (http://search.breitbart.com/q?s=%22Cato+Institute%22&sid=breitbart.com), a Washington think tank.
But others note that the loss in manufacturing jobs has been accelerating in recent years as the trade deficit has grown and America imports more and more products that used to be made here.

"It is pretty crystal clear to our members that when their plant closes down, they know where their jobs are going," said Thea Lee, policy director at the AFL-CIO.

Princeton economist Alan Blinder, who was vice chairman of the Federal Reserve during the Clinton administration (http://search.breitbart.com/q?s=%22Clinton+administration%22&sid=breitbart.com), says the number of jobs at risk of being shipped out of the country could reach 40 million over the next 10 to 20 years. That would be one out of every three service sector jobs that could be at risk.

Those lost manufacturing jobs are fueling an intense debate over globalization—the increasing connection of the United States and other economies.

That debate will play out in Congress over the coming months as the Bush administration (http://search.breitbart.com/q?s=%22Bush+administration%22&sid=breitbart.com) tries to muster the votes needed to pursue its free-trade policies.

Opponents will seek increased protections for American workers against unfair trade practices and push such proposals as wage insurance and better job training for the victims of globalization.

Democrats, who took control of both the House and Senate in last year's elections, believe up to one-third of those lost manufacturing jobs are the direct result of America's soaring trade deficits, which have hit new records for five straight years.

Last year's deficit was $765.3 billion—that is, the U.S. imported $765.3 billion more in goods and services than it exported. The imbalance with China hit an all-time high for a single country at $232.5 billion.

In 1943 and 1944, with factories working overtime to build the ships, tanks and planes needed to fight World War II, manufacturing accounted for four out of 10 jobs in the U.S. That was the peak; manufacturing has been declining ever since. Manufacturing now accounts for one job in 10 in the nonfarm work force.

Over the past 16 years, manufacturing has declined as a percentage of the work force in 48 of the 50 states. Nevada's percentage stayed the same and only North Dakota saw an increase.

The declines have been particularly painful in the industrial Midwest and rural South, which have been battered by competition from China.

"China has just exploded on the global scene since 2002. Every economy on the planet has lost jobs to China," says Mark Zandi (http://search.breitbart.com/q?s=%22Mark+Zandi%22&sid=breitbart.com), chief economist (http://search.breitbart.com/q?s=%22chief+economist%22&sid=breitbart.com) at Moody's Economy.com, an economic forecasting company.

A Moody's analysis found 16 percent of the nation's 379 metropolitan areas are in recession, reflecting primarily the troubles in manufacturing. There have been heavy job losses in a variety of industries from textiles and apparel to paper and furniture.

Critics contend China uses a variety of unfair trade practices from widespread copyright piracy of American products to keeping its currency undervalued by as much as 40 percent to make Chinese goods cheaper in comparison with U.S. products.

On April 9, the Bush administration, responding to growing political pressure, announced the latest in a string of tough actions against China. It filed trade cases with the World Trade Organization accusing China of erecting unfair barriers to the sale of U.S.-made movies, music and books and rampant copyright piracy.

But Treasury Secretary Henry Paulson and other Bush administration officials argue that despite the yawning U.S.-China trade gap, President Bush's free trade policies are paying off in new markets that have helped U.S. exports boom.

While manufacturing jobs have declined, manufacturing output has been rising. The difference is increased productivity, which means it takes fewer workers to make more goods.

"We are evolving to a point that we are manufacturing things that are not easy to manufacture. That require skills. We believe that is our future. And those are the manufacturing jobs that pay the most," Commerce Secretary Carlos Gutierrez said in an interview.

High-tech industries, where the U.S. is still seen as having the edge, include pharmaceuticals, medical devices and airplanes.

But even high-tech industries are facing pressure from imports. The U.S. Business and Industry Council, which represents small- and medium-sized manufacturing companies, found that between 1997 and 110 of the 114 U.S. industries it studied had lost ground to imports in the U.S. market. That was the case even in such sectors as computers and telecommunications hardware.

Just the threat of moving high-paying white collar jobs such as computer programmers and graphic designers (http://search.breitbart.com/q?s=%22graphic+designers%22&sid=breitbart.com) offshore will likely add to pressures on Congress to erect barriers to global competition, which many economists believe would do more damage than good.
"It is easy to see this turning into some kind of protectionist force which would be harmful," Blinder said in an interview. "We need to turn the debate in a constructive direction—how do you prepare the work force of the future and compensate the losers?"



http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D8OKGR480&show_article=1

[Phantom Winger]

Moreover 10Z, the stock market is not any assistance at this time either. The fed continues to Xerox dollar bills, decreasing the value of the greenback:

http://goldsilver.com/the_dow_is_crashing.php

This is a nice read with a lot of graphs showing why the US economy is in trouble.

You do realize that is a website that deals investments in gold and silver, right? And historically, gold and silver thrive when the market dives... so it's a tad biased against the market. A good read perhaps but so is Clancy - he writes historical fiction too.

If you want to gamble - try this site: http://www.intelli-timer.com/ Only difference is they try and play both sides against the middle with the market.

[jetdawgg]

You do realize that is a website that deals investments in gold and silver, right? And historically, gold and silver thrive when the market dives... so it's a tad biased against the market. A good read perhaps but so is Clancy - he writes historical fiction too.

If you want to gamble - try this site: http://www.intelli-timer.com/ Only difference is they try and play both sides against the middle with the market.

Thanks for the drop Marine. I'll check out the site.

I know that 'goldsilver' is a mineral and precious metal website.

[Sgt Leprechaun]

Consensus! Agree. Lets protect the border first, as in, secure it, THEN deal with what we have here already. Anything else is sheer madness.