The unwanted change...Old Corps vs. New Corps

[thedrifter]

The unwanted change...
Old Corps vs. New Corps
Submitted by: MCB Camp Butler
Story Identification Number: 2003218184750
Story by Cpl. Trevor M. Carlee


CAMP KINSER, Okinawa, Japan(Feb. 14, 2003) -- I walked onto those two yellow footsteps, knowing exactly what I was getting myself into. Everyone around me out in the "civilian world" doubted that I had the right intentions. But I knew what was to come, what I was going to endure, and it didn't faze me one bit.

My father, Carl, is a U.S. Marine and I say that while he is currently not enlisted in the Marine Corps. That's one thing I believe Marines in this so-called "New Marine Corps" need to understand. A Marine is something you, yourself, become. It's not a job that you go to three months of training for and it's not a basis for bigger and better things; it's a transformation.

When I was in 8th grade, I bought a computer game called SEMPER FI. I brought it with me to my dad's house, knowing he was in some kind of military service. I told him that I purchased a game called Semper F 1, thinking the "I" stood for the roman numeral of "1." His face turned white in shock that I didn't know what "Semper Fi" was and he was very quick to correct me on the phrase and the meaning of it.

"'Semper Fi' is short for Semper Fidelis, which is the Marine Corps motto, Trevor," my father explained. "It's Latin for 'Always Faithful' and it's what the Marines live and die by."

From then on out, I was fascinated with the Marine Corps. I associated the word Marine with a man who had a very clean-cut head, someone who wears their civilian clothes appropriately, someone who walks straighter than most and someone who has proper manners.

Of course, there are many more things that make a Marine but without the basics everything else doesn't matter.

I originally wanted to go into the military to serve my country, regardless, but at first I was aiming for the Air Force, with expectations of flying. When I realized that I would have to go to college and a lot more training in order to become a pilot, I figured it was too much work on the civilian side to protect my country. But I still wanted to fly. So, I turned to my father for guidance. I asked him if he would rather me join the Marine Corps or the Air Force.

He said, "As a father; I would ask you to join the Air Force because I believe it's safer. As a Marine; I would ask you to join the Marine Corps because it's the best."

That immediately turned all of my focus toward the Marine Corps. If one Marine, who has been out for that long, can still be dedicated to the Corps and believe there is no better alternative, then that's the service I want. I wanted to be part of something that had meaning and purpose. More importantly, I wanted to become someone that stood out.

So when I walk around and see how other Marines behave in this "New Marine Corps"--I get a little upset because it's not at all as I imagined. I see Marines from the "Old Marine Corps" walking around with their shirts tucked in, a clean-cut head, a posture that stands out and says "Marine" and a look on their face that says "I am proud to be a Marine." That's what I signed up for.

Then I look at the New-Corps Marines and see them with huge baggy-pants, big-draping shirts, a slump like they're back in "The Hood," or the "Hunchback of Notre Dame" and the slang and manners of someone who has never been to boot camp.

Marine Corps Boot Camp is not something to just get through; it's a stepping-stone in our lives that makes us who we are today.

I'm tired of people saying they don't want to wear their civilian attire according to regulations because it makes them stand out as targets for terrorism. That sounds like a cop-out if I've ever heard one. I highly doubt there's a sniper up in a tree looking among a scattered crowd and as he spots a sharp-looking civilian he thinks, "That guy has manners and walks upright. He must be a Marine."

I also can't stand it when I see a lance corporal talk back to a gunnery sergeant with no penalty. That's not what I signed up for. I enlisted in the Marine Corps to follow orders and, when the time comes, give orders to those of lesser rank.

There are two types of Marines; the kind that wants to be a Marine and the kind that wants to be in the Marine Corps.

The one who wants to be a Marine exemplifies the highest of standards in the Marine Corps and the one who wants to be in the Marine Corps is just here for the ride and recognition.

Those that joined to be in the Marine Corps are usually the ones who argue that "The Marine Corps can't do that" and "They can't make me do that." There is no "Marine Corps" or "They"; there are only your superiors, your peers and your subordinates. That's the way it has been for more than two centuries and that is how it should continue to be for the next two centuries.

Those that joined to be a Marine are what make this Corps continue to work and I consider my father to be in that category. I hope that I am meeting up to his standards and that my children will live up to mine.

Sempers,

Roger

[2091351]

Too bad that we (U & I) cannot be cloned at least a 170K times. I too am saddened that some folks just can't/don't get it. S/F

Steve

[NamGrunt68]

Damn OUTSTANDING POST....and true as true can be !!! I ain't sayin this to **** anybody off, but the Marine Corps that I KNEW is dead as a doornail !! If you don't believe me and your old Corps, just read the "New" Band of Brothers Creed !! It is not even remotely close to the Corps I was in. I don't have it in front of me, but I think the one line in it that stands out more than anything else is the part that says...."All Marines are entitled to Job Satisfaction"......ROTFLMMFAO !!!!!

[albert torcini]

HEY GUYS,
MY CORPS,YOUR CORPS,THE MARINE CORPS,WERE ALL THE SAME.
THE WORD CAN'T IF YOU CONSIDER IT A WORD WAS NOT IN OUR VOCABULARY,AND THE WORD WON'T SENT YOU TO MOTOVATION
WHERE YOU GET 3 SQUARE MEALS A DAY AND I MEAN SQUARE.
THATS THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN US AND THEM.THATS WHY OLD MARINES NEVER DIE.

SEMPER FI, AL T

[NamGrunt68]

Welcome Home Bro !! Don't think I ever met ya here before !!

[JChristin]

The Old Corps dead?

NOT AS LONG AS THERE IS BREATH IN MY BODY!

What are you all thinking?

The new ones (new corps) will figer it all out. It may take a bit of time, but they'll get with the program. Or we can kick some a ss!


semper fi
jchristin

[thedrifter]

We started with the M1 and than came the M14 both good weapons with great stopping power and long accurate range.
DI's had a free hand in the training of recruits........Now of this hands off policy.........
SSgt's ran the Marine Corps and being a Sgt and Cpl really meant something.
Rank was earned and not given on a Silver Plater..........
You followed your Leaders out of Respect not Fear.......
Officers looked to their SSgts for guidance..........
NCO's were the right hand of SSgts........
You shaped up or shipped out.......
You were a Marine 24/7 and were proud to show it..........

Sempers,

Roger

[albert torcini]

THIS CONVERSATION IS GREAT ABOUT THE NEW CORPS AND THE OLD CORPS.I WONDER WHAT THE MARINES FROM WWII AND KOREA THOUGHT OF US.DON'T FORGET WE WERE THE NEW GUYS TO THEM.WHAT GOES AROUND COMES AROUND.
TELL YOU THE TRUTH I FELL WE STOOD UP BETTER IN THEIR EYES.
THATS BECAUSE WE HAD AND STILL HAVE MORE RESPECT FOR THINGS THAN THESE KIDS DO.
I HAVEN'T HAD A CONVERSATION LIKE THIS IN YEARS.
IT MAKES ME FEEL REALLY GOOD TO CHAT WITH JAR HEADS IN MY TIME.I'AM READY TO SADDLE UP AGAIN.I'LL TEACH THESE NEW MARINES TO WALK WITH TWO FEET IN ONE BOOT.

SEMPER FI, AL T

[firstsgtmike]

Drifter,

I'm a M-1 Marine. Is that the defining line between "Old Corps" and "New Corps"?

What were we carrying on Iwo?

What were we carrying when we earned the title "Devil Dogs?"

And the first kid, who goes down supporting his brothers in Iraq, is he any less than..............

I'm gone. I'm out of it. I welcomed my replacements 20+ years ago. I now welcome my replacement's replacements.

I welcome them, with the same admonishm I received when I enlisted. "You're MY replacement. Don't you EVER let me down.".

and Thank God, I don't think I ever did.

[lurchenstein]

Remember the "500 Year Corps"? We still have a long way to go. I believe most of our Marines are serving right and will continue to do so.
Semper Fidelis!

[usmc2cwgrl]

hey guys

i would defintely have to agree with that post. i got out of the Corps in 2001 so i was considered by some part of the " new Corps" and there were alot of guys that did not show any respect to anyone and acted as though they didn't want to even be there. so i'd always ask em why the heck they even came in if they didn't want to be there? their answer was...i thought it'd be better than this...hey its how ya make it. i loved it and made some great friends and did some awesome things thanks to the "old Corps" we are still able to join the Marines and still have a country to fight for! Thanks guys!!!and gals!!

[usmc2cwgrl]

oops i meant to say article in that first sentence instead of post...heh sowwy

[MillRatUSMC]

I must commend the author of this article but life will always be the same. <br />
There will always be that 10% in the Marine Corps, we had them while we were active and their like is still here in 2003....

[SgtDvlDog3]

I'll grant you this, a Marine will always be a Marine. But, there is something missing from the Marines of today. What is it? I'm not sure. Is it the softness that has woven it's way into our beloved Corps? No more singing cadences with profanity (God Forbid). The touchy feely Crucible. We were Marines on Graduation Day not before and then only after we were dismissed from formation. Did we not accomplish the same teamwork when we were in? I hated being thrashed in the pits but as a platoon we were always together. I also don't buy into the it's for our protection approach as to how a Marine looks while on his 72. A Marine shall always carry himself with honor, integrity and respect not like the hood rat who has no idea what any of those words could even faintly mean. We have to remember that people will be offended by the mere notion that it is our job and mission to make other people die for their countries. Do not let that offensiveness drive what is inherently true to our Corps. We are WARRIORS and we will be called upon to do things that our leaders deem necessary and we will complete our mission by whatever means are necessary without disgracing ourselves and our Corps.

[NamGrunt68]

I really don't remember all that he told me, but my Dad was in the Corps from 1928 to 1932. There was no "major" war then, but he did have to go to "Nicarauga" or somewhere like that...but I do remember him telling me about Parris Island and other places he was.....anyway, sure sounded like it was a whole different ballgame then....Hell, I got pictures of him at Parris Island....I don't know when they stopped issuing them, but in 1928 all Marines in Boot Camp wore Campaign Covers, bell bottomed dungarees and khaki shirts.....Anyway, like the other bro was saying...I bet the WWII and earlier Marines had it a hell of alot harder than us 60's Marines. And the other point was a good un made by somebody....Like Rat said.....theres too much "me" instead of "us" in the Corps......quick lil story......
Last November myself and some other Nam bro's was in DC.....we were milling around over at the Iwo Jima statue, when all of a sudden here comes a Marine across that field in front of it with his girlfriend . He was wearing a T shirt, dress blue trousers and military issue black shoes. Unbelievable....one of the bro's I was with jumped his sh!t about it !! He couldn't o cared less !!! It was on a Sunday, so I reckon nobody in rank above him gave a sh!t and neither did he........

[Jim]

Too much "me" in the Corps? That may be true for many, I hope that's just top's 10%, but it definitely isn't true for all. The "me" attitude reflects our society overall. The Corps has worked hard to overcome that prevalent societal attitude and, at least for this 60's Marine, it seems to have done pretty good. Just look at the attitude of members of other branches. Now don't get me wrong, I'm not about to do any Army, Navy or Air Force bashing, but look at the baggage train the other branches carry to war. Wolf Blitzer had a short blurp on one Marine unit in Kuwait showing their "amenities". The reporter even went through the motions of using a slit trench so the folks at home could see what our guys use without running water. Much of the "me" comes from the political and social environment where too many expect to be given what they want and feel the government lets them down when they don't get it. Even in corporate America there is little loyalty for the company as senior management leaped from company to company to get more benefits. You can say the same for many in major league sports as well. So the image our youth get is take what you can get, expect what you want to be given to you and not worry about any one else.

My son spent four years on active duty in the Corps and is now a Marine reservist activated and deployed to the Gulf. While he was home we spent a bit of time talking and what I heard was an "old breed" Marine NCO. His "war stories" centered around his mates and what they did for each other and how they trained and cared for the newer members of the team.
As the bumper sticker says "Old Breed, New Breed There's not a bit of difference". Of course that always excludes the 10% and many of the REMFs.

By the way, top, I fired an M1 in ITR. Rapid fire was as fast as I could pull the trigger then pull the operating rod back and push it forward again. Guess it had seen one war or trainee too many. I preferred the M14. At least I didn't have to worry about M1 thumb with the M14.

[NamGrunt68]

And the bolt on the M14 doesn't dose out quite as much pain on you when you are required to open it with your "NOSE" !!! LOL

[GyG1345]

"if yer Gunny chevrons don't look like these first few versions, then don't talk about 'Old Corps' to me! "

http://www.angelfire.com/ca/dickg/oldgunny.html
http://www.angelfire.com/ca/dickg/oldgunny.html

;)

DickG

[MillRatUSMC]

I had planned on posting a few exceprts from Goodbye Darkness by William Lancaster Jr. at a later date but this might also explain "the Old Breed vs the New Breed".

Finally in closing;
William Lancaster;
"Why I jumped hospital that Sunday thirty-five years ago and in violation of orders, returned to the front and almost certain death.
It was an act of love.
Those men on the line were my family, my home.
They were closer to me than I can say, closer than friends had been or ever would be.
They had never let me down, and I couldn't do it to them.
I had to be with them,rather than let them die and me live with the knowledge that I might haved saved them.
Men, I knew, do not fight for flag or country, for the Marine Corps or glory or any other abstraction.
They fight for one another.
Any man in combat who lacks comrades who will die for him, or for whom he is willing to die, is not a man at all.
He is truly damned.
And as I stand on that crest I remember a passage from Scott Fitzgerald.
World War I, he wrote,"was the last love battle"; men, he said , "could never do that again in this generation."
But Fitzgerald died just a year before Pearl Harbor.
Had he lived, he would have seen his countrymen united in a greater love than he had ever known.
Actually love was only part of it.
Among other things, we had to be tough, too.
To fight World War II you had to have been tempered and strenghtened in the 1930s Depression by a struggle for survival- in 1940 two out of every five draftees had been rejected, most of them victims of malnutrition.
And you had to know that your whole generation,unlike the Vietnam, was in this together,that no strings were being pulled for anybody; the four Roosevelt brothers were in uniform, and the sons of both Harry Hopkins, FDR's closest adviser, and Leverett Salton-stall, one of the most powerful Republicans in the senate, served in the Marine Corps as enlisted men and were killed in action.
But devotion overarched all this.
It was a bond woven of many strands.
You had to remember your father's stories about Argonne, and saying your prayers, and Memorial Day, and Scouting, and what Barbara Frietchie said to Stonewall Jackson, and you had to have heard Lionel Barrymore as Scrooge and to have seen Gary Cooper as Sergeant York.
And have seen how your mother bought day-old bread and cut sheets lenghtwise and resewed them to equalize wear while your father sold the family car, both forfeiting what would be considered essentials today so that you could enter college.
You also needed nationalism, the absolute conviction that the United States was the envy of all the other nations, a country which never had done anything infamous, in which nothing was insuperable, whose ingenuity could solve anthing by inventing something.
You felt sure that all lands, given democracy and our know-how, could shine as radiantly as we did.
Esteem was personal, too; you assumed that if you came through this ordeal, you would age with dignity, respected as well as adored by your children.
Wickedness was attributed to flaws in individual characters, not to society's shortcomings.
To accept unemployment compensation, had it existed, would have been humiliating.
So would committing a senile aunt to a state mental hospital.
Instead she was kept in the back bedroom, still a member of the family.
Debt was ignoble.
Courage was a virtue.
Mothers were beloved, family obeyed.
Marriage was a sacrament.
Divorce was disgraceful.
Pregnancy meant expulsion from school or dismissal from a job.
The boys responsible for the crimes of impregnation had to marry the girls.
Couples did not keep house before they were married and there could be no wedding until the girl's father approved.
You assume that gentlemen always stood and removed their hats when a woman entered a room.
The suggestion that some of them might resent being called "ladies" would have confounded you.
You needed a precise relationship between the sexes, so that no one questioned the duty of boys to cross the seas and fight while girls wrote them cheerful letters from home, girls you knew were still pure because they had let you touch them here but not there, explaining that they were saving themselves for marriage.
All these and "God Bless America" and Christmas or Hanukkah and the certitude that victory in war would assure their continuance into perpetuity- all led you into battle, and sustained you as you fought, and comforted you if you fell, and, if it came to that, justified your death to all who loved you as you loved them.
Later the rules would change.
But we didn't know that then.
We didn't know."

As our society has changed, so has the recruits from that society.
Are they better or worst since the recruits of WWII?
They're better fit physically but are they better fit mentally.
Many expect too much benefit for themselves on enlisting.
Not getting those benefits leads to dissatifaction.
Many want to associate with what they left behind.
This too might be laid back with changes in the Corps
I wager that there no longer a "Duty NCO" who check your appearance before issuing you a liberty pass.

Semper Fidelis
Ricardo

[GyG1345]

The Old Corps - The Straight Scoop!
"Nothing sounds worse than an old salt blowing his bugle....before that war we had men among us who never knew that life existed outside the Corps. Leather lunged and ramrod straight, hard drinkers and fighters and spit-and-polish career men."

The above words were spoken by "Mac," an old salt Marine, the Master Technical Sergeant in the book (later, the movie), Battle Cry, by Leon Uris, 1953. And he was reflecting on the great changes that had taken place affecting his chosen way of life in the Corps with the advent of WW II.

Although many of us likely have differing opinions as to just what constitutes the "Old Corps," I think that most of us here reading this would accept that period between the two world wars as such. Also, I believe it is true that we all initially see all of those Marines who came before us as old corps; but later, after a few, or many, years our perception of that tends to narrow somewhat and we all decide to some degree just what the old corps means to us individually. Our opinions are founded and shaped according to when we entered the Corps, our experiences, etc. And so our own perception of the Old Corps may become both similar and /or dissimilar to one another's.

But it is that period of time between the world wars that I would choose for myself as that which best falls into the category of Old Corps--for me, anyway--and it is that period that I would prefer to write about. That era was a time when the Marine Corps was very small (less than 20,000), and career Marines are said to have known most other career Marines, either by sight or reputation.

Regretably, I think there is too little specific information available regarding the routine everyday life of Marines during that period, although, we can find numerous bits and pieces regarding this in some books on this general era. But these are few and far between, as most books are written with a specific focus toward its main theme, not allowing for too many other details.

There is one obvious exception to the above. I am referring to Brigadier General Robert H. Williams' book, The Old Corps-A Portrait of the U.S. Marine Corps Between the Wars, 1982, Naval Institute Press.This book is presently out-of-print, but well worth looking for for those interested in this subject.

In 1953-54, I was a member of the 3rd Marine Regiment commanded by Colonel Robert H. Williams, from CJHP, Kaneohe Bay, to Middle Camp Fuji, Japan. Colonel Williams was just such an "Old Breed" Marine. Colonel Williams cut an impressive figure as a Marine, and I observed him pretty much on a daily basis, as my duties were that of a postal clerk at the post office at the regimental headquarters building.

The regimental commander was often seen attired in campaign hat, battle jacket, riding breeches and boots, and he carried a riding crop. During WW II, he had been commander of the 1st Marine Parachute Battalion on Guadalcanal, and later served as XO of 28th Marines on Iwo Jima. But his book was focused on his own personal experiences prior to WW II. He states that, "Since I was commissioned a second lieutenant in 1929, the first ten years of my service coincided with with what may be considered the last decade of the Old Corps."

Myself, I didn't join the Marine Corps until 1952, so by my own definition above, I do not qualify as old corps. But I served with some Marines who definitely belonged in that category--mostly staff non-commissioned officers. Of course, there were by far many more old-timers around than just those I knew about because I worked with them. It was not uncommon, at that time, to see corporals and buck sergeants wearing up to three or more hashmarks. And multiple-hashmarked Privates and PFCs were occasionally seen. And, by the same token, there were also a few "slick-sleeve" Staff NCOs around too.

There was one M/Sgt who had been a China Marine before I was born; another, A T/Sgt (they were usually called "Gunny") who had been a POW in the Pacific during WW II; another M/Sgt who ocassionally wore an old khaki shirt w/out-of-date, obsolete, chevrons (three up/two down, w/a diamond in the center)--he said he had been a first sergeant at one time. Later, much later, I learned that those chevrons were the insigne of a pre-1937 first sergeant. And there were others, many others, some who were even veterans of the "Banana Wars!"

Makes me now wonder why, with such a wealth of living Marine Corps history so near to me, I had not questioned them more closely concerning their experiences. But, back then, I tended not to get too "personal"--I was content to listen to their sea stories and let it go at that. PFCs were like that.

An unknown author has stated that "sea stories are the preferred means by which wisdom is passed from the older generation of Marines to the next." A lot of truth in that, I think--and a great deal of good information has been lost because more of us have not taken down and preserved these things. I now regret that I had not sought out these seeming trivial and mundane things of old corps daily life, while I had the opportunity to do so, and now I have only the dimming memories of those (mostly one-sided) coversations with the old salts.

-Dick Gaines
Ref: Guadalcanal, The Definitive Account by Richard B. Frank:
"The Old Breed", as described by Lieutenant Colonel Samuel B. Griffith, one of their own, described them as they were formed at the beginning or World War II in the lst Marine Division just prior to Guadalcanal: "...first sergeants yanked off "planks" in navy yards, sergeants from recruiting duty, gunnery sergeants who had fought in France, perennial privates with disciplinary records a yard long. These were the professionals, the "Old Breed" of the United States Marines. Many had fought "Cacos" in Haiti, "bandidos" in Nicaragua, and French, English, Italian, and American soldiers and sailors in every bar in Shanghai, Manila, Tsingtao, Tientsin, and Peking."

"They were inveterate gamblers, and accomplished scroungers, who drank hair tonic in preference to post exchange beer ("horse ****"), cursed with wonderful fluency, and never went to chapel ("the Godbox") unless forced to. Many dipped snuff, smoked rank cigars, or chewed tobacco (cigarettes were for women and children). They had little use for libraries or organized athletics...they could live on jerked goat, the strong black coffee they called "boiler compound," and hash cooked in a tin hat."

"Many wore expert badges with bars for proficiency in rifle, pistol, machine gun, hand grenade, auto-rifle, mortar and bayonet. They knew their weapons and they knew their tactics. They knew they were tough and they knew they were good. There were enough of them to leaven the Division and to impart to the thousands of younger men a share of both the unique spirit which animated them and the skills they possessed. They were like a drop of dye in a gallon of water, they gave the whole division an unmistakable hue and they stamped a nickname on the division: "the Old Breed."

First To Fight!!!
Ref The book, The Old Corps, by BGen Robert H. Williams USMC (Ret,), 1982, Naval Institute Press
"Staff non-commissioned officers (those of the top three pay grades) possessed, as they doubtless do now, a status in relation to the more numerous sergeants and corporals comparable to that of field officers to company officers. Exempt from guard duty, they were not required to fall in at mess formations and sat behind a screen at a special table at the far end of the mess hall away from the galley. There they could eat "early chow" if they wished. A marine could be well into his third four-year enlistment before attaining the third pay grade of staff or platoon sergeant.

Enlisted rank designations were generally the same as those of the Army except for the unique rank of gunnery sergeant. Unlike the first world war, it was the rank of the third pay grade, below that of sergeant major and first sergeant. Functionally, gunnery sergeants were then platoon sergeants. Platoon leaders were normally second lieutenants, but sometimes one platoon of a company would not have an officer assigned and would be led by its gunnery sergeant. This had a curious effect. Perhaps feeling deprived at having no officer and realizing that their "gunny" was competing with officers, ..................................

CONTINUED

http://www.angelfire.com/ca/dickg/oldcorps.html
http://www.angelfire.com/ca/dickg/oldcorps.html

[GyG1345]

get worse--and have done so at times!

Ref Col Heinl's piece on The Collapse of The US Armed Forces....

http://www.chss.montclair.edu/english/furr/Vietnam/heinl.html
http://www.chss.montclair.edu/english/furr/Vietnam/heinl.html

[USMC0311]

Place VFW North Chicago..Wauckagian Illinois. Great Lakes Naval Hospital. Dec 66

Two other 18 year old, 3/3 Marine Vietnam Combat Veterans and I were there to play pool and drink booze. Our first time around the civilian Americans since June 65.

The WW 2 Marines told us about the "Big War" and that Vietnam was just a skirmish. I remember well One Old Marine saying. If you are in long enough maybe you will fight in a real war.

We drank our booze and listened in awe at the stories the Devil Dogs told. We realized that the War they served is was a War for the security of our Country and Our Freedom. IT was a World War. All Vietnam Marines I know, Totally Respect and Honor All the Patriots that saved Our Country In the 2nd World War.

In 65/66 Vietnam was not as News Worthy as the Peace Protests. The Old Guys really didn't have any Idea wtf we had just done for our service. I mention this, because I believe if the Old Corps Marines would have known they would have treated us differently. I'm glad they didn't, because To this day I respect the Old Corps Marines. They are What the Corps was and Made up most of the traditions we have tried to emulate.
They are My Hero's

The Old Corps Marines On Bases treated Us with respect and honored us with praise and compliments for being Combat Marines.

I want to say NOW that the Marines I seen on Television look as ready, willing and as able as the Marines I served with.

Discipline and Respect for Tradition is very lax, as we all can see from the atrocities committed by Marines, that have been publicized by the media. This political correct crap allows for evasion of the truth in order not to offend others. Screw a buncha people that won't, can't and don't want to deal with reality on REALITY'S terms.

If ya can't say something nice. Ya must be tellin the truth.


Semper Fidelis, Marines

[albert torcini]

WELL SAID USMCO311,I FEEL THE AS YOU DO.IWAS ASLO THERE WITH YOU IN NAM 65-66.WE CHEWED UP THE SAME DIRT.
MAN I LOVE THIS WEB SIGHT.MAKES ME FEEL YOUNG AGAIN.
TALKING ABOUT THE CORPS PUMPS LIFE INTO YOU.ITS BETTER THAN MEDICINE.

SEMPER FI, AL T

[USMC0311]

Welcome Home mudsucker

Who was ya with Al ? I was A/1/3 on the Troop Transports July/Aug 65, landed October 65 Danang.

Semper Fidelis, Marine

[GyG1345]

Yeh--I agree w/all that has been voiced here--there are w/o doubt, differences in the Corps today and the Corps that all here have spoken about--the main difference lies in only one factor, and that is that today's Marines come from a far different society of Americans than we, and those old salts before us, came from.

Today's society is no longer a society of craftsmen (craftspersons), but a society who can only package overpriced/worthless goods into bubble-paks, etc. that defies opening w/o injury and/or getting ****ed off in the process.
Our values, experience and knowledge are vastly different--rightly/wrongly, good/bad--that's the name of our present tune.

Considering all these things, the Corps has survived far better than other institutions have--God willing, this will be enough.

The America we knew is gone; likewise the Corps we knew--whatever can be said, we'll have to do w/what we have, and that's that.

We all search for the right words, the right explanations--but our hopes are all the same--even though our expectations are a bit shakey. Your concerns are also my concerns.

Semper Fidelis,

Dick Gaines

[USMC0311]

roger that Marine.

[Armory]

Back in 1775, in Tun's Tavern, recruiting started for the new Marine Corps.

The very first Marine enlistee came in, signed the papers and took an oath. He was then told to go outside and wait for the other enlistee's to go through the process. They would assemble later on the front yard.

After a few minutes the second enlistee came out and had a seat on the steps, beside the first.

The first man looked at the second and said, "Son, let me tell you about the Old Corps."

[albert torcini]

HEY JOE, I LANDED WITH 3/3 IN APR. 65.I WAS WITH SUB UNIT #2
WHO WAS ATTACHED TO THE 3RD MARINES.MY ORIGINAL MOS
WAS 1391 BULK FUEL. I SPENT ALOT OF TIME RIDING SHOT GUN ON CONVOYS AND AT RED BEACH.I WAS ON TWO OPS."STARLITE AND HARVEST MOON".I REMEMBER WHEN YOU CAME TO NAM IN OCT OF 65,A FRIEND OF MINE IN COMM WAS WITH YOU. IF I'AM NOT MISTAKEN IT WAS IN THE RAINEY SEASON WHEN YOU ARRIVED. I LEFT APR 66. THEY ASKED ME TO EXTEND MY TOUR IN NAM. I SAID NO THANKS.IREALLY WANTED TO SAY,WHAT IN THE WORLD ARE YOU SMOKIN. BUT ONCE AGAIN THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE OLD AND THE NEW. GOOD TO CHAT WITH YA,BRO
SEMPER FI, AL T

[GyG1345]

http://www.network54.com/Forum/message?forumid=220604&messageid=1034299463



Originally posted by Armory
Back in 1775, in Tun's Tavern, recruiting started for the new Marine Corps.

The very first Marine enlistee came in, signed the papers and took an oath. He was then told to go outside and wait for the other enlistee's to go through the process. They would assemble later on the front yard.

After a few minutes the second enlistee came out and had a seat on the steps, beside the first.

The first man looked at the second and said, "Son, let me tell you about the Old Corps."

[USMC0311]

Originally posted by albert torcini
HEY JOE, I LANDED WITH 3/3 IN APR. 65.I WAS WITH SUB UNIT #2
WHO WAS ATTACHED TO THE 3RD MARINES.MY ORIGINAL MOS
WAS 1391 BULK FUEL. I SPENT ALOT OF TIME RIDING SHOT GUN ON CONVOYS AND AT RED BEACH.I WAS ON TWO OPS."STARLITE AND HARVEST MOON".I REMEMBER WHEN YOU CAME TO NAM IN OCT OF 65,A FRIEND OF MINE IN COMM WAS WITH YOU. IF I'AM NOT MISTAKEN IT WAS IN THE RAINEY SEASON WHEN YOU ARRIVED. I LEFT APR 66. THEY ASKED ME TO EXTEND MY TOUR IN NAM. I SAID NO THANKS.IREALLY WANTED TO SAY,WHAT IN THE WORLD ARE YOU SMOKIN. BUT ONCE AGAIN THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE OLD AND THE NEW. GOOD TO CHAT WITH YA,BRO
SEMPER FI, AL T

:thumbup: Semper Fi, Old Corps. You guys was the First Wave Marines there. It's a Honor to walk in yer shadow Marine.
Big gap tween Starlite and HarvestMoon..wtf was you doin? ;)

[Barrio_rat]

After reading this thread, I was a bit put off. Was the Marine Corps of my generation - my time, less worthy? Soft? Not up to the standards of Chesty Puller, Howling Mad Smith, Archibald Henderson, the China Marines, Dan Daly or (God forbid) my father? And, is the Marine Corps of today not up to the standards of when I served?

So I took some time to reflect, to re-read some of the posts, to understand exactly what WE are talking about. I will not presume anything of anyone who posted here. This is my take on it. Most of what is mentioned, to me, is the ever popular 10%. Some of us, I’m sure, knew of more than 10% while others had far fewer than the 10% in their command.

I don’t know how many promotions are given on silver platters in “todays” Marine Corps, but when I was in, for the most part, rank was earned. You always had your brown nosers and they’d go up for meritorious promotions and often would be promoted. We had others who knew the Marine Corps and their MOS very well, would be selected to go before a meritorious promotion board and receive a promotion. Is that not earning the promotion? There was a time in the Marine Corps when one would not see Cpl until after their first enlistment was up. Do we have it easier today because most are promoted to Cpl within the first 3 years? My father was guaranteed promotion to Sgt if he reenlisted. We, when I was in, had no guarantees like that. Though, for some MOS’s, there was a reenlistment bonus, sometimes up to $30,000. Are todays Marines “softer” because of technology? Because todays Marines fly to Okinawa rather than take a troop transport across the Pacific Ocean? Or, perhaps it’s just economics for the Marine Corps. Technology has brought us many things. Lighter, more serviceable clothing. MRE’s, which some are better than C - Rations and some are far worse. Are Marines “softer” because the company has tried to make a meal that is not only nutritious but tastes good? Because they put in a tiny bottle of Tabasco sauce? Because the Marine Corps found that by making recruits run in boots destroyed their feet and then established policy for running shoes to be worn for runs and, therefore keeping more recruits in training up to graduation without processing them out or recycling them, this is a softer Marine Corps?

Todays Marine Corps has higher standards for joining than it ever has. The Marine Corps will no longer accept the ones given the option “go to jail or go into the military.” I knew one of the last Marines in under that policy. A damn fine Marine he was, too. The leadership of tomorrow will face what the leadership of today and yesterday have always been facing. A smarter group coming in and having to find new ways to motivate and command them.

My father served in the early to mid 50's. He was part of “The New Breed.” He knew some of the “Old Corps” Marines and talked about them with reverence. He also spoke of those who were there just before him. While he did serve in Korea, he was not part of the well known battles - Pusan, Inchon or Chosin. He spoke of those Marines with the greatest of respect. He always found contacts - I never understood how he could do it, until now - and would tell me of great and wonderful things Marines were doing all over the world. The MSG Marines in Iran and the courage they had while being held captive. What the Marines of Vietnam had accomplished. That in Vietnam, by percentage of total serving in country, there are fewer Marine POW’s or MIA’s than of all the other services. So, was his Marine Corps better than mine? Was it tougher? In some ways, maybe it was. In his time, rarely did he wear civvies. In my time we were all but required to wear civvies when off post or even off duty. In my father’s day, he got his butt chewed because he was overheard saying “you bet, sir” to a Capt. It was off duty and this Capt and my father, a Cpl, shared some common interests and would speak together of them. He was told it will be YES SIR or NO SIR and nothing else. In my day, we were able to speak more freely with the officers. We always used tact and decorum, but it was a freer exchange. One night, I gave my father a call from my OIC’s house (we were having a shop party) and he about flipped a lid. In his time, enlisted would never associate or be able to associate with the officers. But then, I was in the Wing and, it could be argued, this had some to do with moral. After a few years in, I realized what the main difference was between my father’s Marine Corps and the Marine Corps I was in. In his day, they had less rights but more freedom. In my day, we had more rights but less freedom. Gone were the days of getting drunk on a Friday or Saturday night and howling at the moon. Serious repercussions came to those who had an “alcoholic incident.” Yet, if we were mistreated by an officer, we had a recourse we could follow. There will always be changes. I almost cringe at what is to come over the next 30 years. Though, looking back over the last 50 years, while changes have been made and more are certain to come, one thing does stand out above all else. We are Marines. We will always uphold the standards and traditions that have been laid before us. Some new traditions may emerge. We will always go forth and do that which we have been tasked with and we will prevail or die trying. I would say, do not let the examples of a few be your standard for what the Marine Corps is today.

Well, I hope this made sense.

Semper Fi!

[USMC0311]

Hey Rat

My Opinion of you Marine. Your Pride and demeanor are Outstanding. You are a Good Marine and I am Proud to call ya Brother.

We collectively as Marines need to clean our ranks ourselves. I expect ALL Marines to conduct themselves with the Pride We all are Instilled with.
They iz always a 10% that's why we gotta square-away the ****-birds when we come across them. It ain't just the Recent Marines that need to be squared-away. I know some Old Corps Marines that need a heads-up on wtf they are expected to be.

Semper Fidelis, Marine

[albert torcini]

HEY RAT, JOE IS 100% CORRECT. I KNEW TWO BROTHER IN VIET NAM AND ONE RECIEVED THE MEDAL OF HONOR AND THE OTHER WAS A **** BIRD.

SEMPER FI, AL T

[Armory]

Excellent post Rat.

I joined the Marines to be the best with the best. I can safely say that the Marines I served with fit that bill more than any other service or organization I have seen or known.

I know that the Marine Corp is the finest organization I have or ever will have the pleasure to be a part of (Which becomes more and more apparant now that I'm in the civilian world).

Has it changed? You bet.

One thing however hasn't changed.

We're still the Finest Fighting Force this planet has ever seen.

[NamGrunt68]

Originally posted by albert torcini
HEY JOE, I LANDED WITH 3/3 IN APR. 65.I WAS WITH SUB UNIT #2
WHO WAS ATTACHED TO THE 3RD MARINES.MY ORIGINAL MOS
WAS 1391 BULK FUEL. I SPENT ALOT OF TIME RIDING SHOT GUN ON CONVOYS AND AT RED BEACH.I WAS ON TWO OPS."STARLITE AND HARVEST MOON".I REMEMBER WHEN YOU CAME TO NAM IN OCT OF 65,A FRIEND OF MINE IN COMM WAS WITH YOU. IF I'AM NOT MISTAKEN IT WAS IN THE RAINEY SEASON WHEN YOU ARRIVED. I LEFT APR 66. THEY ASKED ME TO EXTEND MY TOUR IN NAM. I SAID NO THANKS.IREALLY WANTED TO SAY,WHAT IN THE WORLD ARE YOU SMOKIN. BUT ONCE AGAIN THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE OLD AND THE NEW. GOOD TO CHAT WITH YA,BRO
SEMPER FI, AL T

You would o recognized Joe T if ya seen him in Nam....he would o been the only Marine there in da bush with two ho's hangin on to each arm and a six pack in each hand !!! He also might o been wearin "Jump Wings".....aint dat right Joe T ......:D LOL

[albert torcini]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by NamGrunt68


You would o recognized Joe T if ya seen him in Nam....he would o been the only Marine there in da bush with two ho's hangin on to each arm and a six pack in each hand !!! He also might o been wearin "Jump Wings".....aint dat right Joe T ......:D LOL [/

QUOTE]WOW,I SHOULD OF KNOWN JOE T BACK THEN. I CAN RELATE TO THE HO'S AND THE BEER, WHATS WITH THE JUMP WINGS? AL T

[greensideout]

We were taught that we were to wear the uniform in a manor that honored those before us and not for ourself.

That stuck with me. Whenever I put on the Marine uniform, I reminded myself of the Marines before me, their battles and of their sacrifice that the uniform represented.

It made me want to wear it proud----for them!

Semper Fi

[albert torcini]

THATS EXACTLY RIGHT ON GREENSIDE OUT. I FEEL THE SAME WAY.
AS A MATTER OF FACT I STILL HAVE MY UNIFORM STANDING TALL.
I JUST WISH I COULD FIT INTO IT.

SEMPER FI, AL T

[NamGrunt68]

Originally posted by albert torcini
[QUOTE]Originally posted by NamGrunt68


You would o recognized Joe T if ya seen him in Nam....he would o been the only Marine there in da bush with two ho's hangin on to each arm and a six pack in each hand !!! He also might o been wearin "Jump Wings".....aint dat right Joe T ......:D LOL [/

QUOTE]WOW,I SHOULD OF KNOWN JOE T BACK THEN. I CAN RELATE TO THE HO'S AND THE BEER, WHATS WITH THE JUMP WINGS? AL T

HEY JOE T !!! Tell Al about yer jump wings !!! Don't leave nuttin out !!! BSEG !!!!

[USMC0311]

Originally posted by NamGrunt68


You would o recognized Joe T if ya seen him in Nam....he would o been the only Marine there in da bush with two ho's hangin on to each arm and a six pack in each hand !!! He also might o been wearin "Jump Wings".....aint dat right Joe T ......:D LOL

Yes Dane them would be "red wings" and Black wings" That's the emblems of tang tasters :p

Right now I have crutches under each arm and I ain't ait no tang inna while;)

and Daner you ole mudsucker. only vagina I got in Nam was R&R Saigon Feb 28 66 to Mar 4 66. before or after meals and One for the night for 5 days. 18 with a hard everything and money to buy the soft stuff.

Semper Fi, MoFo

[NamGrunt68]

Originally posted by USMC0311


Yes Dane them would be "red wings" and Black wings" That's the emblems of tang tasters :p

Right now I have crutches under each arm and I ain't ait no tang inna while;)

and Daner you ole mudsucker. only vagina I got in Nam was R&R Saigon Feb 28 66 to Mar 4 66. before or after meals and One for the night for 5 days. 18 with a hard everything and money to buy the soft stuff.

Semper Fi, MoFo

Damn Joe T....I always wondered why my sister just had to move to Michigan...now I know !!! LMAO....hey ya night mud sniffer...take a snort o that "Crown" fer me...if you want I'll Fed Ex ya up sum "Scotch".........:D DO NOT GO UP ON THE SECOND FLOOR !!!!

[USMC0311]

Originally posted by NamGrunt68


Damn Joe T....I always wondered why my sister just had to move to Michigan...now I know !!! LMAO....hey ya night mud sniffer...take a snort o that "Crown" fer me...if you want I'll Fed Ex ya up sum "Scotch".........:D DO NOT GO UP ON THE SECOND FLOOR !!!!

will do on the Crown Dane and You know wtf Schotch does to yer pine trees :D 10-4 on the 2nd Floor

[GyG1345]

Old Corps/New Corps? Monday Morning Thoughts....
by Dick G (Login Dick Gaines)
Forum Owner

The various debates over new Corps Vs. Old Corps have gone on since '75 (1775, that is), and continue to this day.

I have come to the conclusion that such discussions are no longer valid.

It is no longer the case that a basis for comparison exists between the Old Corps and (so-called) New Corps. This is my honest opinion, and opinion though it may be, there it is! It was none other than General (Chesty) Puller who once stated that (paraphrased--words to this effect) Old Corps/New Corps, there's just one Corps, the Marine Corps. And the old man was entirely correct, at that time.

There was at that time no fundamental difference between the Marines of the 30s and the Marines of the 40s and WW II; nor any fundamental difference between the Marines of the 50s and ....say, the early 60s. So up till and including those times there was some basis for comparison, although superficial differences did exist to one degree or another. This is no longer true.

Today, 2003, there are fundamental (not only superficial) differences between the Marines of pre-WW II years, etc., and now. Remember, our Marines come from American society. Some people have always been fond of saying that the Marines of the Corps are but a reflection of society in general--and it is within such a context that I am speaking here.

The America of the 1930s thru the very early 1960s no longer exists--it is gone! And with it the Marine Corps that many of us grew up with and loved. Now that's a fact. So, again, in my opinion, there is no longer any basis for an argument one way or the other for any discussion of "Old Corps/New Corps" as far as a comparison of today's Corps (and America) with the Corps (and America) of those glorious days long gone by.

My opinion, you are entitled to yours--but methinks your opposing views be just whistling past the cemetery--denial is not just a river in Egypt.

Various examples of opinion may be included here, both pro and con. In the end, it is still just a matter of opinion, you have yours, I have mine. Most who claim that there is no difference at the core between old and new are just denying what has occurred in America in the last forty years or so--no matter their theme claiming to be conservatives, patriots, or even Marines--I see in their rantings just more cases of this mania to be politically correct, while attacking their peers, who now and then have the courage to voice the truth, while attacking them on various points of racist, sexist, political points of one kind or another. You can compare various kinds of beer; but not beer and soda pop.

1984 has come and gone!

Semper Fidelis,
Dick Gaines
GySgt USMC (Ret.)
1952-72

[firstsgtmike]

GunnyG,

I think you better get someone on your side before the fan starts splattering it all over the wall.

So let me put it in simpler terms.

The debate, Old Corps-New Corps started in 1775. Therefore, other than MY time on active duty vs. YOUR time on active duty, or THEIR time on active duty:

When did the Old Corps end and the New Corps begin?

Anyone living who tries to claim "Old Corps" status will have at least 15 past generations of Marines to argue with.

Old Corps-New Corps is, in reality, a long running joke.

I recently read a similar satire. Part of it was that "You kids have it easy. You push a button and your phone call is connected. When I was a kid, you had to crank the phone and tell the operator what number you wanted."

Where did the "cranker" stand in the Old Corps-New Corps?

Or does a member of the Old Corps ask "What is a telephone?"

I remember a family gathering, many many years ago. My father was telling me how spoiled I was, because when HE was a boy....., then his father, my grandfather, stepped it to explain how easy my father had it, because when HE was a boy .........
At THAT point, my great grandfather entered the discussion and shut everyone up.

No, they weren't talking about the Marine Corps, but they could have been.


That's MY nickles worth.

[USMC0311]

I Do Know One Absolute Fact. The Only True Distinction is "The Old Breed" (do you know who they are?) (think about it for awhile before posting and maybe you will find a distinctive difference in the "Breeds") In effect we all are Marine Breed. You Rocket Scientists can take it from here.

Semper Fidelis, Marines

[eddief]

Old or New Corps doesn't matter. We all bleed in war.

[USMC0311]

Originally posted by eddief
Old or New Corps doesn't matter. We all bleed in war.

actually it's around 10% for the Corps. don't have any Idea wtf other Services do.

[GyG1345]

No problem for me standing alone--I'm used to it--and it's not crowded that-a-way!

For those of you who need the company in your stands--you should have plenty, just continue to go w/the PC/safe course--as for me--I calls 'em as I sees dem!

Just Plain Dick

[Armory]

This post is nothing more than my Corp's dik is bigger than your Corps. We're a brotherhood. It's not us vs us, it's us vs them.

How about a "Why we think the Army is a bunch of unsat pigs" post?

[USMC0311]

Originally posted by Armory
This post is nothing more than my Corp's dik is bigger than your Corps. We're a brotherhood. It's not us vs us, it's us vs them.

How about a "Why we think the Army is a bunch of unsat pigs" post?

Semper Fidelis, Brother

How bout a sensitivity Thread for Marines. we can call it
"Touchie Feelie" Marines can say wtf they want to Marines. It ain't like any of us really take to heart the rantings of Uncle Sams Misguided Children. Proof is in the putting. and I'm sure the Breeds/Generations ALL do wtf it takes to get the Job done. I have Faith in Our Corps. No matter when they is in. Semper Fi, Do or Die

[badbob]

It’s been a while since I’ve posted but I had to jump in on this one. <br />
<br />
Seems to me that this question comes up every few months or so, and I wasn’t surprised when I logged on today and the first...

[MillRatUSMC]

Now a question might arise;
Can current members of 1st Marine Division be both part of the "Old Breed" and the "New Breed"?

http://www.cpp.usmc.mil/1MarDiv/history.htm
History of the 1st Marine Division

I once was both as a member of Golf 2/1!

Semper Fidelis
Ricardo

[USMC0311]

Originally posted by MillRatUSMC
Now a question might arise;
Can current members of 1st Marine Division be both part of the "Old Breed" and the "New Breed"?

http://www.cpp.usmc.mil/1MarDiv/history.htm
History of the 1st Marine Division

I once was both as a member of Golf 2/1!

Semper Fidelis
Ricardo

"smart ass" ;)

[GyG1345]

Failed to get my point across, as usual, apparently.

Not a case of the Old Corps/New Corps at all!

Point is the SOURCE from which any Marine Corps--old or new--can come (America) has all but ceased to exist. No America, No Marine Corps, old/new/whatever.

I pointed out the 60s only as a reference point where I first noticed Marines more and more as a buncha dopers w/nothing but disdain for seniors, etc. That (Quantico, 62-64)was just the beginning.

By the time I left CJHP in 72 it wasn't even safe for lifers to be caught around mainside Bowling Lanes/Base Theatre after dark--WMs were regularly attacked going to the flik at night. Indeed, I was warned not to enter any of the squadbays at Staging Regt while conducting my official mailroom inspections there during the day. My last tour in Danang, the troops were all stoned and the SNCO/Officers were all drunk while all hands kept their mouths shiut and collected their awards and promotions.

I have posted Col Heinl's (The Collapase of The Armed Forces) here several times in recent months. The only fault I find with his report is that he seems to have excluded the marine Corps entirely from it.

Today, the schools are teaching that Jefferson/Washington (when they are mentioned at all), were racists, sexists, etc. And their students' grandparents as well! To say nothing of the government, Hollyweird, and the rest of the media....

40 years of such bs can not now be overcome w/denial!!!

The source of our present individual Marines is from what's left of America. Now, if we're just talking about warm bodies, cannon fodder, etc., then I agree--there is no difference. That's not what I am talking/writing about.

Sure, the Marine Corps is still here, in name; Parris Island is still here, in name; NCOs/Officers are still here in name....

Most of us still talking about Old Corps in some fashion or other, indeed have come from the Old America prior to the socialist order having become entrenched and its dirty work done--but how many Marines now calling themselves Old Corps are from that old school--damn few.

Take another look, Marines--ya don't have to say it aloud--I know what comes from that, and I understand--but take a look and think about it.

One more point--I do not say that ALL those of recent years are the new pseudo-Americans--but what do you think the percentages are?

Some will say, well, we let this happen--we get what we deserve--that too is worthy of some thought.

Dick

[Armory]

Gunny G,

When I was in 91-95 we peed in cups every few months and if you popped you were gone. No second chance, no office hours, seeya later. A DUI was a career ender too.

My grandfather was in During WWII and the stories he told me didn't match what I knew as the Corp, somethings better somethings worse.

America has changed and the Marine's have changed, but again somethings for better, somethings for worse.

In terms of Dicks, the Old Corps are harder, but the New Corps are Optically Guided and have a light coat of CLP for her pleasure.

[Jim]

Old Corps/New Corps, as others have said, is a debate that has been around for a long time. For me it is not so much a old v new or us v them but a friendly rivalry between members of a brotherhood. Much in the Corps has changed, some for the good, some not so good. Much of that change is a result of changes in our society, some from technology. Much in the Corps remains as it was and will remain as long as there is a Corps. The pride from earning the title and the brotherhood of others who have earned it as well. The Corps is like any family, there are some that don't accept the responsibility and pride. To many of them the Corps is just a job similar to any other job.
I remember one night early in my first tour in Nam. I was with a MAG and as a young Corporal, had a working party at MAG HQ. We began taking rockets and as we hunkered down the 1stSgt began telling us that this was nothing. He went on to say that it wasn't bad until you could see the bombers coming over and the bomb bay doors opening. He was obviously "Old" to our "New" breed. I can also remember looking forward to making Sgt so I wouldn't need a liberty card. Shortly after I made Sgt, the Corps eliminated the liberty card, so I guess I'm "Old breed" to those that don't know what a liberty card is. I'm definitely "Old breed" to my son who is one of the "New breed" NCOs in Kuwait with 1MEF. I remember when it was MAF, so guess that makes me "Old breed" as well. My son and I have had many good talks while he was home before shipping out. Much of what he said and had done was "Old Breed" yet he can't be "Old" cause I've worn out more seabags than he has socks. Our training was "different". My boot camp was 8 weeks, they needed hot bodies in the Nam so Boot camp was shortened, while his was 13 weeks. He did the crucible and "warrior" training in bootcamp but I had to go to ITR for "warrior" training. He trained with the M-16 while I had the M-14. Had to go to Nam to get my first M-16. As a machine gunner he talks about the SAW and I thought he needed something to cut wood, I mean after all real machine gunners use the M-60, right?
What I'm trying to say is that the Old Breed/New Breed is a friendly rivalry between brothers just like the PI/"Hollywood Marine" rivalry. Both will last as long as there are Marines and will provide endless hours of fun.

[David Schultz]

Everything changes with time. Once a Marine always a Marine. 1775-2003

Semper Fi
67-70

[wrbones]

I thought it was like a grunt vs winger thing. You know. Grunts get paid to go campin and hikin and blowin **** up and wingers get to work for a livin'. ;)

:D :banana:

[thedrifter]

Hey Joe,

Now we have a pure Smart A$$..........Bones sure does it right................LMAO

Sempers,

Roger:banana: :banana: :banana:

[greensideout]

Well put all!

It could be worse. We could be in a bar kicking a** and taking names 'bout now.

Glad we're having fun with the old question, "Who's the best"?

You know what---WE ALL ARE!

Semper Fi

[Art Petersn]

1955 to 1958 that should make me Old Corp. but I have been back to Lejeue and Parris Islands both in the past year.

they still look like marines and act like maries/ The only part that pi ss me off is they sure are alot younger and better looking. One thing I did notice was alot of marines out jogging and working out. I don't remember doing any of that when I was in.

[greensideout]

Hell no Art,
We didn't do that jogging and crap like that.
We were out chasing the skirts and when we found them we looked in the Marine Corps manual to figure out what to do! LMAO

[Morgan]

Ever since that first Marine said to the second Marine, "It was not like that in the old Corps", the battle has been on. Most every one I talk to says the same thing. It was harder when I was in, it took more guts when I was in, etc,etc. I tell you my take on it. I was in back in the early 70s, boot camp was hard, (but not as hard as those who went before that), but for me it was. My experience was not all that profound, but I was glad that I was a Marine. However it seems that I have been having a new found pride in my past these last several years. Why? Maybe the Desert Storm conflict or the war on terror has awakened this country to new feelings of patriotism and pride. Mind you I have always been proud of being a Marine, and I have always loved my country, but it seems that more people are feeling that way also. I work with many Marines and we now talk about the Corps and Country much more than we used to. I know Marines that were in the Corps in the 60s, 70s, 80s, 90s, and one very special one that joined in 2002, my daughter. In all my talks I notice one common thread. We love our country and we love our Corps. I have heard boot camp stories, fleet stories, recruiter stories, and bull s##t stories from Marines of all ages, and they all relate to all of us. People change, times change, politics, rulers, and borders all change. But one thing does not change, no matter when or were you went to boot camp, we are the greatest fighting force to ever walk this earth. Past, present, and future. And the fact that we believe this makes us even more unbeatable. So what is the answer to the question of who is the best? I think GSO nails it "WE ALL ARE".

P.S. My daughter is stationed in Hawaii, man I did not have it that easy in the old Corps.

[Barndog]

Morgan - whoa there Bro - YIKES!!! New feelings of patriotism? Did you know enlistment numbers are DOWN since 9/11? Less people 18-25 NOW want anything to do with military service than ever - than they did in 1980. Back then ('80) it was 40% in 2000 it was 64%.

My Daughter is thinking about joining the Corps - she is a Sophomore. She has talked to the recruiters at her school, and a couple have called her at home. I told her when the time comes, she has the best recruiter in the world to take care of her. ME.

New Corps - Old Corps? As long as it's still the Marine Corps....

Lets move on. Adapt, overcome, improvise, adjust. (damm good to see ya BabBob - you old Jarhead)

Semper Fidelis

Tony 'Barndog' Barnhart
USMC 1978-1983
MI ARNG 1984-1992

[Barndog]

that's BAD Bob (fingers are NOT working so well at 0500)
My apologies.

OOHH RAHH

[Osotogary]

..to cut the mustard?

[leroy8541]

Grandad was old corp he joined in 1916, an original Devil Dog. Uncle jim old corp joined 1969, Leroy new corp1983? Who cares when my Papaw saw my dress blues before he died his eyes watered, yes watered,for he did not cry! Now my son is going to earn his EGA. When I see him in dress blues my eyes will water too.

[FREDDY]

All I can say is that some people need a good kick in the a##
I would have gotten a boot in my a## if I had tried any of the stuff you talked about

[USMC0311]

2nd World Marines are the "Old Breed"
http://www.scuttlebuttsmallchow.com/ob.html

The Old Corps is any Old Marine that Is not Boot To You. Use a bit of discretion in evaluating what length of time that is in reality. Reality? Thats the Deal Marines "Old Corps" Is owned By the Marine that came before you. The "Old Breed" Has had their Distinction since the Korean War.

Semper Fidelis, Marines and Yes to all you friggin Boots too ;)

[adolphbell]

The Corps has always had its 10%. I remember a bunch of goof-offs when I was with MAG14 at Cherry Point (1965). These guys (about 4 0r 5) were always dressed sloppy and complaining about the idiots in the squadron, that is, any at the rank of corporal or above. But and interesting thing happened to these guys when they went on leave. All of sudden they looked like they just got out of boot camp, including spit shined shoes. They couldn't get above the rank of pfc, but they were clearly proud to be Marines while on leave.

I've read a lot of posts by Marines recently released from active duty and ones on active duty in various Marine discussion groups, and Real Marines are still there. The pride and honor of being Marines isn't dead. Of course, I still wish the Corps carried a decent rifle (M1 or M14), oh well the world moves on.

Semper Fi
Bell

[chicagousmc]

Don't forget that...

These Marines today earned the title whether we agree with there training today, compared to what each of us went through in our day. A lot of these Marines will be seeing what it means to be a Marine "under fire" in the very near future and then we will all see what there training taught them about being a Marine. I will never play the old corps vs. the new corps game, it's not a legitimate argument. I'm sure if you could talk to the original Marines from 1775 they would be doing and saying the same thing. Marines are and always have been trained well and ready for any mission. I AM A MARINE, not old corps, not new corps, just MARINE CORPS! :marine:

[Sixguns]

Yes, I've been saving up my pennies to pay my dues to get in to the Old Corps. I figure with me retiring in a few months, every story will start with "when I was in the Corps" or "in the years before I retired."

Being on active duty, it's hard to call yourself old Corps when you are still serving in the Corps of today (new Corps). Is that deep or what???

SF

[Shaffer]

Are you kidding me? Sixguns becoming philosophical? He really is getting to be Old Corps. The way I see it is I will not be Old Corps until the majority of the Vietnam era vets are guarding Heaven’s gate. Hell I don’t even view the Vietnam vets as old Corps yet. I consider them the in-between Corps. The Vietnam vets will have the torch passed to them soon enough by the old salts of WWII and Korea. Then it will be the Beirut vets and then the Gulf vets. Not a day I am anxiously awaiting. I am very content with being considered “New Corps”. Although this non-sense about not digging recruits on the quarter-deck and having a time-out card is really beyond me. Hey wait a minute, maybe I am Old Corps…LOL. Anyhow, Old Corps, New Corps, what’s the difference? Maybe a little, however the similarities are great. Especially when you earned the right to wear that Eagle, Globe and Anchor.

[Barrio_rat]

Originally posted by Sixguns
Yes, I've been saving up my pennies to pay my dues to get in to the Old Corps. I figure with me retiring in a few months, every story will start with "when I was in the Corps" or "in the years before I retired." Being on active duty, it's hard to call yourself old Corps when you are still serving the in the Corps of today (new Corps). Is that deep or what???

SF

Yes, very deep... I've already put my watch in a zip lock bag and I'm getting out my hip waders. LOL

Semper Fi!

[Sixguns]

Rat,

Wow, you're good. I see how quickly you were able to get the baggie and the boots. Either you have this down to a science or you must just have them standing by for me and the other other folks. LOL.

SF

[SHOOTER1]

well put greensideout, It aint the Old, and It aint the New, Its The Marine Corps, Who Corps,? Its Our Corps.

[Quinbo]

;)

[SkilletsUSMC]

On the subject of liberty attire, I think that the Corps will change with the times. Its now normal to see people in the business and financial world wearing polo shirts and blue jeans.

The world is becoming more casual in the way it dresses. It is just abnormal for most men to tuck in a shirt unless they are wearing slacks. To the civilian population, seeing a man with a military haircut wearing his shirt tucked in makes him look like he cameout of a time machine. It was normal durring the 50s and 60s, nowdays unless youre a jughead, no one dresses like that.

Im not saying that dressing like a gang banger or a Punk rocker is acceptable. I am saying that what the world considers dressing nicely has changed quite a bit, and the Marine Corps should not worry so much about how a Marine dresses on his spare time.

[pffan021]

We have a lot of **** bag Marines in the Corps nowadays, but those **** bags get the job done over seas. When they are deployed they know there is a job to be done and for the most part they do it very well. It's back here in garrison where they begin to falter in their Marine Corps ways. My biggest issue with Marine's today is weight. I hate to see a fat disgusting Marine and knowing he goes home on liberty and brags about how he is a Marine. Nothing worse than to be compared to a fat pos that can't do two pull-ups or run a mile without dying.

[jrhd97]

Liberty attire may differ at the unit level. I had a company CO required we always tuck our shirts in, wear belts and closed toe shoes. Squad leaders had to make sure we all complied. When transfered to another company in the same bn, there was very little concern on liberty dress.
pffan, I also can't stand to see a fat body in our uniform.