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View Full Version : A question about N. Korea



Art
02-18-03, 10:57 AM
Disclaimer!: This post asks for a clarification -- I really only want to discuss the logic of the war argument and not get too far in to ideologies.

OK, we have Iraq on the one hand. The argument is that they have nukes, and are willing to use them to rid the planet of the Western world. The President et al. suggests a preemptive strike on Iraq as a means of self-preservation. Regardless of whether you buy it, the argument follows a logical path-- right?

Because on the other hand, there is N. Korea -- one of the countries listed under the 'Axis of Evil' classification. They admittedly have nukes (even though they are not 'supposed' to). They are, by most normal standards, an oppressive regime. And most importantly, they could ostensibly use the nukes to rid the planet of the Western world. Yet, we wish to reach a 'diplomatic' settlement with them.

An invasion of North Korea would be, without a doubt, a harrowing task. With the billion or so Chinese to the North, such an invasion could turn in to a massive world war. So perhaps diplomacy is the prudent path now. But still, the situation seems identical to that of Iraq -- a country that America will perhaps invade within the next 30 days. It seems, then, that the U.S. uses diplomacy with those who are powerful; and war with weak... In other words, we mess with Iraq because we know we can win; we talk to Korea because war with them would get ugly. Is this a lapse in logic? Or is there more to the story?

wrbones
02-18-03, 11:50 AM
Korea hasn't been directly associated with the outfit that crashed a couple of planes into a couple places on U.S. soil lately?

eddief
02-18-03, 12:18 PM
Whoever said war was logical? We're not going to stop terrorism
with this invasion of Iraq. We'll just be sowing the seeds for the
next generation of terrorists. Children being born in America and
the middle east today will be fighting twenty or so years from
now. I believe WW3 began on 9/11/01, and before it ends many
people will die. I believe that North Korea will attack South Korea,
and China will go after Taiwan. I'm not sure who would attack
first in the case of Pakistan and India. Probably Pakistan because
those Arabs are crazy dudes. Are'nt preemptive strikes fun? It's
just like Stratego!

Rob Parry
02-18-03, 12:21 PM
Art, that's a question that's drawing an awful lot of people out of the cupboard and making them ask exactly the same thing of their politicians. Q. What's the difference?
N. Korea has trained terrorists of all persuasions for many years, from the Mid East and even N. Ireland. They own WMD. They launch missiles in tests. they have a massive brainwashed population.
So, what is the difference?

Art Petersn
02-18-03, 12:35 PM
Lt's handle Iraq first and let Chine and Russia help with North Korea.

greybeard
02-18-03, 08:43 PM
Yeah, there's probably a few members here who remember the last time China 'helped' with N. Korea.

What's the difference? Well terrain for one. Potential casualties for another. Climate. You name it. Iraq is easily doable-N. Korea is another kettle of fish. You chose your battles, if given a choice. Thus far, the US has a choice.

NamGrunt68
02-18-03, 09:41 PM
KILL A COMMIE FOR MOMMIE !!!!

Earle Comstock
02-18-03, 09:57 PM
You rang ?

I'll do it by myself if I have to , but I know there are to many of my brother Marines ready , locked and loaded . MOUNT UP

Barrio_rat
02-19-03, 02:56 AM
Okay, here's my few cents... I would say 2 but y'all know how I can get long winded at times... LOL no no.. it's true! ;)

There are a few differences. Right now, there is no PROOF Iraq has any Nukes but there is evidence - I personally believe it is quite damaging evidence - that Iraq does pose a threat (perhaps immediate, if not, definitely near future) to the US and Western Europe - as well as the stability of the Middle East (primarily, for our purposes, Israel). Given the chance, I believe, Iraq would cause us great harm or, at least, enable terrorist groups to cause us harm. Now, while North Korea ainít innocent, they are WILLING (so far) to sit down and discuss matters and come to a diplomatic conclusion. Iraq - primarily Saddam - is not. Heís shown this time and again. Heís had 12 years to show that he is willing. So far, no go. North Korea (if we are going to run Ďem parallel) should get about another 8 years. I donít think we should give it to Ďem, but there is that small argument. Now, Iíve heard some predictions that a war against Iraq - the actual battle engagement - will be fast and furious. It will be over in a matter of 3 - 8 weeks. Iíve heard and read this in a number of reports. The clean-up is a different story and a different debate. So, hypothetically speaking, we go in and kick Iraqi butt. Keep in mind, we do this in the winter months when itís cool in Iraq (near 90) - while in North Korea itís sub 0 .. Perhaps way sub 0. So, we take out Saddam and liberate Iraq. Then, the president turns to the leadership of North Korea (along with that of China) and, basically, says ďya want some of that?Ē They ainít gonna wanna play no more. They are saber rattling because we have other interests and itís in their best interest to distract the president to get what they want, rather than be the focus of attention. I think, when all is said and done, there will be a diplomatic conclusion. They want trade, they wonít get trade if they donít give up a great deal. Hopefully (I really mean hopefully, because it doesnít seem to matter whoís in office, they will muddle things) the president/administration will not only put heavy sanctions and conditions on North Korea, but have a way to follow up and ensure that those sanctions are being followed. In return, North Korea gets aid - helps itís people eat and live better - and, through China, we help to make North Korea more capitalistic. China has tasted capitalism and it likes it! But what if North Korea wonít submit to diplomatic terms? Well, by that time it will be getting into summer. All those troops that are no longer needed in the Middle East will move North. They can be in Ďliberty portí in Hong Kong and/or the Philippines as well as stationed in Okinawa and Mainland Japan. A few more can be sent to South Korea for good measure. Perhaps, as with the way North Korea thumbed itís nose at China (this really did surprise me when it happened) we may broker a deal with China where we guarantee that we will not tough the Yalu and they wonít come to North Koreaís aid. It may happen. China would have to weigh which they like more - trade with us or a puppet state that is p.ssing off the rest of the world.

Anyway, that is a nutshell version of what I see the difference being - right now. Itís politics, logistics and weather patterns....

The only other alternative is to become total isolationists. Not a bad idea - but not a good one either. We have never been an isolationist country, even when we thought we were. There again, another debate.

Guess that was more like 2 bits than 2 cents...

Barndog
02-19-03, 03:48 AM
You need to sit down with my Dad, the 1stSgt and Sgt Ken, Rat. Your opinion of Korea would change drastically. This is typical modus operandi for the brainwashed, commie bastards. Do the history - same way they did it last time. Broke, people starving, etc.

The second point I want to make is: until you go fight a war in another country, then I suggest turn off the stupid TV and stop listening to the chickenhawks in the White House and Pentagon who never wore a f**king uniform in the first place. If yer so sure they got the sure-fire answer, pack yer trash and go assist. They seem to have all the answers. They still haven't explained that to the 58,000 families names on the Vietnam Memorial in DC have they? They had them then too didn't they?
G.W. (even though I am not a fan of his or his Father) has the opportunity to stand up in the face of the world - when they're trying to debate who gets the oil. And, we're the bad guys?
Let the protesters march right to Mexico. I hear China and France are accepting applications for immigration. If not, IRAQ is.
F**K France! Korea is singing the same song they did 53 years ago. SAME ONE.

The other thing is: Everyone said we were wrong when we pulled the plug on the atomic weapons in WW2 didn't they?
I consider myself highly educated, and quite well thought. I don't have that much time nor mental capacity to invest in world affairs, especially when my own backyard is rather, threatened. My family and our security is alot more important. I'm here to tell you - my backyard and community is alot more important. I will defend that to my death - if necessary.

Isolationism isn't an option. But many of the leaders in our political game ARE isolationists. We need to tighten our borders.
HOW?
Same answer as for the draft problem :
Repulicans figure its every man for themselves -
Democrats figure that someone should do it for them -

Meanwhile the country goes to hell in a handbasket, while 64% of the 18-25 year olds in the Nation want nothing to do with the military. The rich get richer, and the poor get poorer.

Theres some more food for thought.

Go back to school again.

Semper Fidelis

Barrio_rat
02-19-03, 11:41 AM
I'm going to take this one part at a time. To lessen any confussion.


Originally posted by Barndog
You need to sit down with my Dad, the 1stSgt and Sgt Ken, Rat. Your opinion of Korea would change drastically. This is typical modus operandi for the brainwashed, commie bastards. Do the history - same way they did it last time. Broke, people starving, etc.

I've had plenty of sit downs with my own father - it was good enough for me. He was a Korean Vet. I don't recall stating that they are doing anything different, however, my opinion is, we are in a different world - China wants to open its borders not close 'em. I think they will use diplomatic means to bring this to an end. MY OPINION. If it's wrong, it's wrong. We have a ways to go to find out if it is though.


The second point I want to make is: until you go fight a war in another country, then I suggest turn off the stupid TV and stop listening to the chickenhawks in the White House and Pentagon who never wore a f**king uniform in the first place. If yer so sure they got the sure-fire answer, pack yer trash and go assist. They seem to have all the answers. They still haven't explained that to the 58,000 families names on the Vietnam Memorial in DC have they? They had them then too didn't they?
G.W. (even though I am not a fan of his or his Father) has the opportunity to stand up in the face of the world - when they're trying to debate who gets the oil. And, we're the bad guys?
Let the protesters march right to Mexico. I hear China and France are accepting applications for immigration. If not, IRAQ is.
F**K France! Korea is singing the same song they did 53 years ago. SAME ONE.

You should check my profile. Then you'd lose that first sentence. Some did wear the uniform, some did not. I really don't care. They are the elected (or appointed by the elected) representatives of our nation - like 'em or not. For the record, I'm not a big fan either. But, I've stated it before, I'll back him until he shows me that he's going in the wrong direction. As to our troops being sent over seas by people who never wore the uniform, I'd like to know where all the protestors were when Clinton sent our troops to Bosnia and Kosavo. I agreed and supported Clinton on his actions, I did not agree with his method. GW Bush is following every diplomatic hurdle they throw at him. Clinton just sent our troops over and put 'em under the command of a foreign power. Granted, that was yesterday, but for those who are up in arms over what Bush is doing, I call 'em hypocrites for not going after Clinton in the same manner. As to them having all the answers... Well, they do, cuz they have all the info and intel. Does that mean they will make the right decisions - probably not, but I still try to have hope in our nation and our government. I'm not blind, nor foolish, just hopeful - if I'm disapointed, then it's on me. 58,000 names on the Vietnam Memorial Wall.. there are more names of those we left in Korea - there are names that we left in Germany. There will always be names. There's even one name (as far as I'm concerned, even one name is too many) from Desert Storm. As for the protestors and France... I agree with ya.


The other thing is: Everyone said we were wrong when we pulled the plug on the atomic weapons in WW2 didn't they?
I consider myself highly educated, and quite well thought. I don't have that much time nor mental capacity to invest in world affairs, especially when my own backyard is rather, threatened. My family and our security is alot more important. I'm here to tell you - my backyard and community is alot more important. I will defend that to my death - if necessary.

Don't know what THEY thought about the atomic weapons when we used 'em against Japan. Most the world didn't know about it until well after the fact. If they had devolped 'em first, they would have used 'em on us. It was war, that sh.t just happens. I'm not going to worry about things from nearly 60 years ago. I think we should know it, study it, as it will help us with our future. Both diplomatically and militarily. I also agree with you on the the defense of self, family and home. That is very important to me as well. However, we cannot allow any country to be able to invade our homeland and destroy our neighbors with the belief that, as long as I've got my backyard covered, that's all that matters.


Isolationism isn't an option. But many of the leaders in our political game ARE isolationists. We need to tighten our borders.
HOW?
Same answer as for the draft problem :
Repulicans figure its every man for themselves -
Democrats figure that someone should do it for them -

Meanwhile the country goes to hell in a handbasket, while 64% of the 18-25 year olds in the Nation want nothing to do with the military. The rich get richer, and the poor get poorer.

Theres some more food for thought.

Go back to school again.

Semper Fidelis

I never stated that isolationism was actually an option - at least, not one worth considering. We've always had isolationists in the country, we always will. I agree, we need to tighten our borders - to me, that goes to your statements about the 'backyard' ... It's ALL our backyard. I can't do anything about what the 18-25 year olds in this country think about serving their nation or how to make the rich poorer nor the poor richer. As to school, been there done that too - waste of my time and money. I learned plenty, little to none of it actually applies to life. That's my experience, I don't say it is or will be for others. My degree has done little for me other than get me a 3% raise 4 years before it would have happened anyway. Not very cost effective.

Perhaps you should re-read what I commented on - the statements I made in the earlier post. Most of what I responded to here, had nothing to do with what I stated there. I only stated an opinion from my perseption of what was going on in the world today. Some of it from a tactical view (for which I admittedly have limitted knowlege) and some from a diplomatic view (no, I'm not a diplomat either). Just the way I see things and how I think they could be played out. Not should be or will be, but only could be.

Semper Fi, bro ... ya made me sit up and start thinkin with this one! Have a great day!

Rob Parry
02-19-03, 03:41 PM
Well said Barrio-Rat, eloquently put, despite your counter claims about your education! It's a shame so much inflection is lost in this electronic medium, despite it's complexity it misses out where a voice is varied and altered in line with the attitude and feelings of the speaker.
Mine's quite relaxed at the moment, being on the outside of a bottle of Red.

eddief
02-19-03, 05:40 PM
I say no more American lives lost for those ingrates in S.Korea.
Arm S.Korea to the teeth like we do Israel, and then they can
take care of themselves. I won't lose any sleep at night for
those people.

Barrio_rat
02-19-03, 06:19 PM
Thanks, Rob Parry.. Ya got any Bass Dark? Only good beer I could find in Hong Kong! Ya can't find the stuff out here... I'm in redneck heaven - with the good comes the bad, I suppose.

I like that idea, eddief - it would cost us less, in lives. Would probably help stimulate our economy a bit as well. Seems like it would work - which is why the Government would never go for it! LOL

Also, it seems this thread is taking a bit of a detour. The question asked - and I put my comments toward that question - was WHY Iraq and not North Korea. Not if or when we should ever go after North Korea or what could be done about either of the Korea's. Nor was I taking a stand in support of or against any action toward either of these countries. Hind sight is 20/20... and we'll know way to far down the road what should have been done. We already have a lot of 'woulda shoulda coulda's' in dealing with Iraq and North Korea. I just hope we don't make the same mistakes. Though, looking at past practice (especially in dealing with and caring for our war time vets) we will.

Have a great day - short break at work and it's back to the grind stone... okay, it's back to an air conditioned bubble where I push buttons - but hey, it's a living!

Semper Fi and take care...