Freakinomics 101:

[10thzodiac]

IS COMMON SENSE REALLY COMMON ?
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What are your odds of being killed by a terrorist outside a war zone ? The answer is one out of eighty thousand. What dose that mean ? It means you have a better chance of dying eating French fries.
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After 9/11 people were too afraid to fly airplanes, automobile deaths when up by 1000 as compared too a non 9/11 period.
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The New York Times has reported 28,000 people died from road rage in a single year. That is 538 a week, which are 77 per day!
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AAA reports 1.5 Million people a year have a vehicle collision with a deer that is 28,846 a week, which are 4,110 per day.
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Terrorist in a one time lucky event [for them] were able to hi-jack four jet airliners and fly them into buildings killing 2,992 (including 19 suiciders). Therefore, we start a war with <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" /><st1:country-region><ST1:place>Iraq</ST1:place></st1:country-region> that is well documented that had nothing to do with 9/11; now the American death toll is 9/11 times two and climbing.


Does this make sense to you and why ?
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“Always there has been some terrible evil at home or some monstrous foreign power that was going to gobble us up if we did not blindly rally behind it.” ~ FIVE STAR GENERAL OF ARMIES Douglas MacArthur (http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/d/douglasmac169259.html)



http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/9/92/MacArthur_Manila.jpg/220px-MacArthur_Manila.jpg (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:MacArthur_Manila.jpg)http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/9/94/USAGENA.jpg (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:USAGENA.jpg)
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[jryanjack]

At what point do the odds of being killed by a terrorist become worthy of going to war against the terrorists? How many innocent civilians need to be killed for simply going to work on a random day?

I would agrue that the terrorists on 9/11 did not get lucky, we got complacent, they did not get lucky.

From my recollection, we did not invade Iraq because of 9/11 - it was the WMD's and our concern that Iraq would give/sell them to terrorists - everyone pretty much agreed that Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11.

[HOLM]

The same arguement doesn't make sense to Liberal Democrats when applied to and arguement about gun control...

It was also the same sentiment among the American people in the years and years leading up to WW2.. and because we did not take the problem seriously 56 million people died,


These Terrorist are threatening to kill as many people as they can. Iran wants to get a nuke.. How many people could they kill with one of those? I understand nukes can kill lots and lots of people. And they are bad for the environment.

What do you purpose we do?? just let the terrorist have free run since they are not killing that many people anyway.. And then just lock everyone in rubber rooms so they are not free to have accidents..

[HOLM]

Oh and you want to quote MacArthur just look a little further down the page


I am concerned for the security of our great Nation; not so much because of any threat from without, but because of the insidious forces working from within.
Douglas MacArthur (http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/d/douglasmac142436.html)

In war there is no substitute for victory.
Douglas MacArthur (http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/d/douglasmac125976.html)

Last, but by no means least, courage - moral courage, the courage of one's convictions, the courage to see things through. The world ;is in a constant conspiracy against the brave. It's the age-old struggle - the roar of the crowd on one side and the voice of your; conscience on the other.
Douglas MacArthur (http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/d/douglasmac165977.html)


One cannot wage war under present conditions without the support of public opinion, which is tremendously molded by the press and other forms of propaganda.
Douglas MacArthur (http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/d/douglasmac143233.html)

[10thzodiac]

I bet ya, MacArthur is referring to the terrorists 'French' fries, deers and road warriors not to mention the tobacco industry. Did we find any Nukes that USMC Major Ritter told Bush, Saddam didn't have yet ?

Maybe it was Ike's IMC, MacArthur was referring to, he had Five Stars too !

I see Freakinomics is not you fort&#233; (excuse the French (fries), Burrp http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/mesg/tsmileys2/09.gif I bet those terrorist French fies get us before a suicider nuker does http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/mesg/tsmileys2/18.gif

Can I have a refill on my super-size Coke, to wash these colon cloggers down before I'm irradiated by a camel jocky or have a heart attack http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/mesg/tsmileys2/26.gif

[jryanjack]

The funny thing about statistics is that they can be manipulated to say pretty much whatever you want them to say. Maybe we should analyze the odds of a hermit living in the backwoods of any of a number of rural states, say Montana for example - what is his odds of being killed by a terrorist? Maybe we should all move to Montana?

The WMD issue is a seperate arguement, your initial post leads towards 9/11 being the lead for the invasion of Iraq - it wasn't. Granted, the emotional appeal generated by 9/11 made the invasion more popluar but it was not the reason in and of itself.

I would agree that our society's danger of being destroyed lies more with internal issues - ala super size those fries - then it really does from any terrorist threat; however, that does not mean that we should allow terrorists to go free and only try and stop them at our borders, a good offense is the best defense.

The invasion of Iraq has created a terrorist haven that we now need to finish cleaning up, if we pull out now we will do far more damage then we would do by staying. The issue of whether it was right or wrong, if Bush acted on faulty intell or simply ignored what he didn't want to hear is irrelevant - we are there and we need to finish the job.

[HOLM]

The invasion of Iraq has created a terrorist haven

I agree with the rest of your paragragh there but I detest this arguement.

Just because you turn on the light and see the cockroaches run.. DOES NOT mean that they were not there when the light was off...

[rktect3j]

This probably has to do with the fact that we did not go to war with Iraq based on the "Therefore, we start a war with Iraq that is well documented that had nothing to do with 9/11" It is well documented that we did indeed NOT go to war with Iraq based on a connection to 9/11. WHat did happen is that we went to war with Iraq after 9/11 and the left would have you believe that it is based on a connection to the event itself when it is more based on a side effect. The reason we went to war with Iraq is this:


Joint Resolution to Authorize the Use of United States Armed Forces Against Iraq
Whereas in 1990 in response to Iraq's war of aggression against and illegal occupation of Kuwait, the United States forged a coalition of nations to liberate Kuwait and its people in order to defend the national security of the United States and enforce United Nations Security Council resolutions relating to Iraq;
Whereas after the liberation of Kuwait in 1991, Iraq entered into a United Nations sponsored cease-fire agreement pursuant to which Iraq unequivocally agreed, among other things, to eliminate its nuclear, biological, and chemical weapons programs and the means to deliver and develop them, and to end its support for international terrorism;
Whereas the efforts of international weapons inspectors, United States intelligence agencies, and Iraqi defectors led to the discovery that Iraq had large stockpiles of chemical weapons and a large scale biological weapons program, and that Iraq had an advanced nuclear weapons development program that was much closer to producing a nuclear weapon than intelligence reporting had previously indicated;
Whereas Iraq, in direct and flagrant violation of the cease-fire, attempted to thwart the efforts of weapons inspectors to identify and destroy Iraq's weapons of mass destruction stockpiles and development capabilities, which finally resulted in the withdrawal of inspectors from Iraq on October 31, 1998;
Whereas in 1998 Congress concluded that Iraq's continuing weapons of mass destruction programs threatened vital United States interests and international peace and security, declared Iraq to be in "material and unacceptable breach of its international obligations" and urged the President "to take appropriate action, in accordance with the Constitution and relevant laws of the United States, to bring Iraq into compliance with its international obligations" (Public Law 105-235);
Whereas Iraq both poses a continuing threat to the national security of the United States and international peace and security in the Persian Gulf region and remains in material and unacceptable breach of its international obligations by, among other things, continuing to possess and develop a significant chemical and biological weapons capability, actively seeking a nuclear weapons capability, and supporting and harboring terrorist organizations;
Whereas Iraq persists in violating resolutions of the United Nations Security Council by continuing to engage in brutal repression of its civilian population thereby threatening international peace and security in the region, by refusing to release, repatriate, or account for non-Iraqi citizens wrongfully detained by Iraq, including an American serviceman, and by failing to return property wrongfully seized by Iraq from Kuwait;
Whereas the current Iraqi regime has demonstrated its capability and willingness to use weapons of mass destruction against other nations and its own people;
Whereas the current Iraqi regime has demonstrated its continuing hostility toward, and willingness to attack, the United States, including by attempting in 1993 to assassinate former President Bush and by firing on many thousands of occasions on United States and Coalition Armed Forces engaged in enforcing the resolutions of the United Nations Security Council;
Whereas members of al Qaida, an organization bearing responsibility for attacks on the United States, its citizens, and interests, including the attacks that occurred on September 11, 2001, are known to be in Iraq;
Whereas Iraq continues to aid and harbor other international terrorist organizations, including organizations that threaten the lives and safety of American citizens;
Whereas the attacks on the United States of September 11, 2001 underscored the gravity of the threat posed by the acquisition of weapons of mass destruction by international terrorist organizations;
Whereas Iraq's demonstrated capability and willingness to use weapons of mass destruction, the risk that the current Iraqi regime will either employ those weapons to launch a surprise attack against the United States or its Armed Forces or provide them to international terrorists who would do so, and the extreme magnitude of harm that would result to the United States and its citizens from such an attack, combine to justify action by the United States to defend itself;
Whereas United Nations Security Council Resolution 678 authorizes the use of all necessary means to enforce United Nations Security Council Resolution 660 and subsequent relevant resolutions and to compel Iraq to cease certain activities that threaten international peace and security, including the development of weapons of mass destruction and refusal or obstruction of United Nations weapons inspections in violation of United Nations Security Council Resolution 687, repression of its civilian population in violation of United Nations Security Council Resolution 688, and threatening its neighbors or United Nations operations in Iraq in violation of United Nations Security Council Resolution 949;
Whereas Congress in the Authorization for Use of Military Force Against Iraq Resolution (Public Law 102-1) has authorized the President "to use United States Armed Forces pursuant to United Nations Security Council Resolution 678 (1990) in order to achieve implementation of Security Council Resolutions 660, 661, 662, 664, 665, 666, 667, 669, 670, 674, and 677";
Whereas in December 1991, Congress expressed its sense that it "supports the use of all necessary means to achieve the goals of United Nations Security Council Resolution 687 as being consistent with the Authorization of Use of Military Force Against Iraq Resolution (Public Law 102-1)," that Iraq's repression of its civilian population violates United Nations Security Council Resolution 688 and "constitutes a continuing threat to the peace, security, and stability of the Persian Gulf region," and that Congress, "supports the use of all necessary means to achieve the goals of United Nations Security Council Resolution 688";
Whereas the Iraq Liberation Act (Public Law 105-338) expressed the sense of Congress that it should be the policy of the United States to support efforts to remove from power the current Iraqi regime and promote the emergence of a democratic government to replace that regime;
Whereas on September 12, 2002, President Bush committed the United States to "work with the United Nations Security Council to meet our common challenge" posed by Iraq and to "work for the necessary resolutions," while also making clear that "the Security Council resolutions will be enforced, and the just demands of peace and security will be met, or action will be unavoidable";
Whereas the United States is determined to prosecute the war on terrorism and Iraq's ongoing support for international terrorist groups combined with its development of weapons of mass destruction in direct violation of its obligations under the 1991 cease-fire and other United Nations Security Council resolutions make clear that it is in the national security interests of the United States and in furtherance of the war on terrorism that all relevant United Nations Security Council resolutions be enforced, including through the use of force if necessary;
Whereas Congress has taken steps to pursue vigorously the war on terrorism through the provision of authorities and funding requested by the President to take the necessary actions against international terrorists and terrorist organizations, including those nations, organizations or persons who planned, authorized, committed or aided the terrorist attacks that occurred on September 11, 2001 or harbored such persons or organizations;
Whereas the President and Congress are determined to continue to take all appropriate actions against international terrorists and terrorist organizations, including those nations, organizations or persons who planned, authorized, committed or aided the terrorist attacks that occurred on September 11, 2001, or harbored such persons or organizations;
Whereas the President has authority under the Constitution to take action in order to deter and prevent acts of international terrorism against the United States, as Congress recognized in the joint resolution on Authorization for Use of Military Force (Public Law 107-40); and
Whereas it is in the national security of the United States to restore international peace and security to the Persian Gulf region;
Now, therefore, be it resolved by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled,
SEC. 1. SHORT TITLE.
This joint resolution may be cited as the "Authorization for the Use of Military Force Against Iraq".
SEC. 2. SUPPORT FOR UNITED STATES DIPLOMATIC EFFORTS
The Congress of the United States supports the efforts by the President to--
(a) strictly enforce through the United Nations Security Council all relevant Security Council resolutions applicable to Iraq and encourages him in those efforts; and
(b) obtain prompt and decisive action by the Security Council to ensure that Iraq abandons its strategy of delay, evasion and noncompliance and promptly and strictly complies with all relevant Security Council resolutions.
SEC. 3. AUTHORIZATION FOR USE OF UNITED STATES ARMED FORCES.
(a) AUTHORIZATION. The President is authorized to use the Armed Forces of the United States as he determines to be necessary and appropriate in order to
(1) defend the national security of the United States against the continuing threat posed by Iraq; and
(2) enforce all relevant United Nations Security Council Resolutions regarding Iraq.
(b) PRESIDENTIAL DETERMINATION.
In connection with the exercise of the authority granted in subsection (a) to use force the President shall, prior to such exercise or as soon there after as may be feasible, but no later than 48 hours after exercising such authority, make available to the Speaker of the House of Representatives and the President pro tempore of the Senate his determination that
(1) reliance by the United States on further diplomatic or other peaceful means alone either (A) will not adequately protect the national security of the United States against the continuing threat posed by Iraq or (B) is not likely to lead to enforcement of all relevant United Nations Security Council resolutions regarding Iraq, and
(2) acting pursuant to this resolution is consistent with the United States and other countries continuing to take the necessary actions against international terrorists and terrorist organizations, including those nations, organizations or persons who planned, authorized, committed or aided the terrorists attacks that occurred on September 11, 2001.
(c) WAR POWERS RESOLUTION REQUIREMENTS. --
(1) SPECIFIC STATUTORY AUTHORIZATION. -- Consistent with section 8(a)(1) of the War Powers Resolution, the Congress declares that this section is intended to constitute specific statutory authorization within the meaning of section 5(b) of the War Powers Resolution.
(2) APPLICABILITY OF OTHER REQUIREMENTS. -- Nothing in this resolution supersedes any requirement of the War Powers Resolution.
SEC. 4. REPORTS TO CONGRESS
(a) The President shall, at least once every 60 days, submit to the Congress a report on matters relevant to this joint resolution, including actions taken pursuant to the exercise of authority granted in section 2 and the status of planning for efforts that are expected to be required after such actions are completed, including those actions described in section 7 of Public Law 105-338 (the Iraq Liberation Act of 1998).
(b) To the extent that the submission of any report described in subsection (a) coincides with the submission of any other report on matters relevant to this joint resolution otherwise required to be submitted to Congress pursuant to the reporting requirements of Public Law 93-148 (the War Powers Resolution), all such reports may be submitted as a single consolidated report to the Congress.
(c) To the extent that the information required by section 3 of Public Law 102-1 is included in the report required by this section, such report shall be considered as meeting the requirements of section 3 of Public Law 102-1.

[rktect3j]

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2002/10/20021002-2.html

Now if anybody cares to discuss this link with me I'd be happy to, but I am not into revisionist history or propaganda. The "He said it so it must be true but I can't back it up with real stats" ain't flying here today.

[FistFu68]

:evilgrin: WOULD YOU RATHER DIE~FIGHTING A SWORN ENEMY~OF YOU'R COUNTRY,YOU'R RELIGION;EVERYTHING WE STAND FOR! OR BY A F'*CKEN FRENCH FRY???:evilgrin: :iwo:

[DWG]

Just because you turn on the light and see the cockroaches run.. DOES NOT mean that they were not there when the light was off...

I like that analogy; well put HOLM!:thumbup: :beer: to you!

[DWG]

10Z, granted most of us will probably get taken out by french Fries, nicotine and/or alcohol but, would you rather we left this festering wound to grow just so your grandkids will have to deal with it here at home? If islamic terrorism is allowed to continue unchecked it will grow ever stronger, sweeping more and more people into its' folds. Right now we are playing an away game while we are unmatched on the world stage; this is much better than playing on our home field against a "team" that has had years to grow stronger. Better we prune back this pestilence now, over there, than later in the streets of Chicago or St. Louis or Atlanta. The references you make to our ability to wipe them out once they get here don't apply. They will not arrive as an invading force. They will flood over us with "student" visas and attack in the same cowardly manner they do in the mid east; IEDs and shooting up innocent civilians, except then it will be our innocent civilians.

[10thzodiac]

Gentlemen,

Any country/terrorist in the world that has a couple of bucks can buy and is trying to buy a suitcase atomic bomb or bigger. They smuggle tons of cocaine into this country every year. Don't you think Iraq is a narrow approach allegedly trying to stop a world-wide nuclear suitcase threat, do you ?

What the Republicans & Democrats have to do is secure our boarders, just like our Smedley told them to do the beginning of the Twentieth-Century, almost a hundred years ago:

[Snippet]

"Let's build up a national defense so tight that even a rat couldn't crawl through!" ~ Excerpt from a speech delivered in 1933, by Major General Smedley Butler, USMC

The Iraq war de facto is a waste of treasure and blood if we are trying to protect our boarders from a nuclear bomb being smuggled in. Our shores our vulnerable from terrorist all over the world. Any crack pot world-wide, state or no state can buy a nuclear device if they have enough money, and breech our boarders. The dope runners do it everyday with ease.

If Eisenhower was here today he'd take both the Republicans & the Democrats out behind the White House and shoot their dicks off ! But then how could he, because you can't shoot off what they don't have.

“When people speak to you about a preventive war, you tell them to go and fight it. After my experience, I have come to hate war. War settles nothing.” ~ Dwight D. Eisenhower.


SF

[FistFu68]

:evilgrin: THIS CHIT BEEN FESTERING FOR ALONG TIME,BERIUT MARINE BOMBING;THE HANGING OF COL.HIGGINS.WHEN THE DEM'S GET IN,GUESS WHAT? THE CHIT,STILL GONNA BE THERE!!!SO LET US SNEAK A SUITCASE 'NUKE,INTO DAMASCUS,TEHRAH,FUC'MIGHT AS WELL DO MOSCOW;AND BLAME IT ON!THE GREAT SATAN!!!:devious: THEY OPENED THIS CAN OF WORM'S;THEY WANT A HOLY WAR?LET'S GIVE THEM THE MUTHA'F*CKER!:devious:

[jryanjack]

I agree with the rest of your paragragh there but I detest this arguement.

Just because you turn on the light and see the cockroaches run.. DOES NOT mean that they were not there when the light was off...

There is no proof that Bin Landin's gang was in Iraq prior to our invasion, sorry, but Sodamn Insane would not have allowed it - fundamentalists were as big a threat to him as they are to us. Insane was able to use more effective tatics to keep his people under control - wipe out a few thousand people in the middle of the night and you won't have any insurgency.

Our belief that anyone who wears a towel on his head is a terrorist is going to have to change if we are ultimately going to win. Sorry, but not every Arab or Muslim is a terrorist waiting to blow himself up.

[USMCmailman]

I am sorry Jim but I disagree!!!! Christians have been fighting the freeken Muslims for 2000 years!!!! They all su*k!:evilgrin:

[DWG]

Sorry, but not every Arab or Muslim is a terrorist waiting to blow himself up.[[Quote]

That's true but every terrorist, so far, has been a muslim or arab! When they start stepping up and cleaning out their ranks of this scum they will recieve more acceptance and credability in the civilized world!

[10thzodiac]

:evilgrin: THIS CHIT BEEN FESTERING FOR ALONG TIME,BERIUT MARINE BOMBING;THE HANGING OF COL.HIGGINS.WHEN THE DEM'S GET IN,GUESS WHAT? THE CHIT,STILL GONNA BE THERE!!!SO LET US SNEAK A SUITCASE 'NUKE,INTO DAMASCUS,TEHRAH,FUC'MIGHT AS WELL DO MOSCOW;AND BLAME IT ON!THE GREAT SATAN!!!:devious: THEY OPENED THIS CAN OF WORM'S;THEY WANT A HOLY WAR?LET'S GIVE THEM THE MUTHA'F*CKER!

http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/mesg/tsmileys2/27.gifBrother FISTFU68, the following links are [TOP SECRET] US GOVERNMENT documents doing exactly as you are suggesting.

Operation Northwoods - 1962 http://www.rationalrevolution.net/war/operation_northwoods.htm

Operation Mongoose -1962
http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/nsa/cuba_mis_cri/621004%20Minutes%20of%20Meeting%20of%20Special.pdf

[jryanjack]

Sorry, but not every Arab or Muslim is a terrorist waiting to blow himself up.[[Quote]

That's true but every terrorist, so far, has been a muslim or arab! When they start stepping up and cleaning out their ranks of this scum they will recieve more acceptance and credability in the civilized world!

Couldn't agree more - by supporting an Arab government in Iraq, who's leaders are Muslim, in a way we're helping them learn to do that.

However, not all terrorists are Arab or Muslim - what about Tim McVeigh; what about the NPA in the Phillipines, Red Brigade in Europe? Reaching way back - using today's terminology what would the British have considered our founding fathers? Guess it depends on your definition of a terrorist.

Don't misunderstand me, all I'm saying is that not every person should be judged by their race or their religion. As I've said in the past, our goal should not be to irradicate the Arab race or the Muslim faith, a) its not possible; b) in attempting to do so we become our enemy.

[rktect3j]

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2002/10/20021002-2.html

Now if anybody cares to discuss this link with me I'd be happy to, but I am not into revisionist history or propaganda.

So nobody wants to discuss the real reason why we went to war and have opted to be baited by this propaganda listed in the original thread opener.

It is a truly sad day when people believe that we went to war with Iraq because of 9/11 let alone falsy make this claim in order to pull support for their political agenda.

[rktect3j]

Each year, there are more than 1.5 million crashes involving deer, causing an estimated $1.1 billion in vehicle damages, 150 lives lost, and more than 10,000 injuries. And, most people involved in auto insurance will say, the figures are much higher. While the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) keeps annual figures for car-deer accidents, the figures lack a measure of exactness and certainty because there's currently no standardization in the reporting of deer-related accidents throughout the country, and because what constitutes a "reportable accident" varies so much between states.

Any way you look at it, $1.1 billion is a lot of money, even to the auto insurance industry, which should be quite concerned about car-deer collisions and looking for better ways to help avoid them. Well they are, but a report released last year by a group representing the interests of the insurance industry reveals that there's a lack of formal research on what works and what doesn't - while the information that's available is far more anecdotal than decisive.
In bold you will see that 150 people die in 365 days instead of 2000 dead which is the number closly related to one terrorist event on one day. Also note that they can not guarantee these numbers. 10,000 people are injured by "deer accidents" How many people are injured to this day from that attack on our soil due to polutions. Now if we used some common sense we might also have to wonder how many of these "deer accidents" were not some bumpkin driving drunk who crashed his vehicle and reported it the next day in order to get his car fixed.

I'd have to wonder about that anyways.

[USMCmailman]

I am SORRY, I know I am harping, But for what its worth, Its not just the Muslims I hate! I am not to fond of the freekin North Vietnamese assho*ls eather!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:mad: :mad: :mad:

[10thzodiac]

I am SORRY, I know I am harping, But for what its worth, Its not just the Muslims I hate! I am not to fond of the freekin North Vietnamese assho*ls eather!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:mad: :mad:

Did you forget the South Vietnamese, or are they still okay or was that before they were not okay too http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/mesg/tsmileys2/06.gif

[FistFu68]

:evilgrin: I'M A PRODUCT OF THE (PHOENIX PROGRAM) # 10,IT'S THE ONLY WAY I KNOW HOW~MY BROTHER MARINE!!! S/F:usmc: :iwo:

[10thzodiac]

So nobody wants to discuss the real reason why we went to war and have opted to be baited by this propaganda listed in the original thread opener.

It is a truly sad day when people believe that we went to war with Iraq because of 9/11 let alone falsy make this claim in order to pull support for their political agenda.

"Oil is much too important a commodity to be left in the hands
of the Arabs."
-- Henry Kissinger,
US Secretary of State under Presidents Nixon & Ford

[DWG]

[quote]However, not all terrorists are Arab or Muslim - what about Tim McVeigh; what about the NPA in the Phillipines, Red Brigade in Europe? Reaching way back - using today's terminology what would the British have considered our founding fathers? Guess it depends on your definition of a terrorist[quote]

Not familiar with the npa, but majority of terrorists in the Phillipines are muslim. Red brigades have not attacked us. Our founding fathers stated in their own words "we hang together or we will certainly hang seperately." They knew their fate if they failed.
Regarding Timothy McVeigh; does it not strike any one else as odd at how quickly he was executed? Most murderers don't meet their fate in such a timely manner. I don't normally subscribe to conspiracy theories, but damn, someone wanted him dead right now! The talk about his links to arab terrorists may be BS or not, but any other felon would still be wending his way through the leagal system.

[DWG]

"Oil is much too important a commodity to be left in the hands
of the Arabs."
-- Henry Kissinger,
US Secretary of State under Presidents Nixon & Ford


The real Dr. Strangelove. The guy was a wack job, then and now. Anything out of his mouth was a shot at personal power!

[USMCmailman]

Did you forget the South Vietnamese, or are they still okay or was that before they were not okay too http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/mesg/tsmileys2/06.gif

Well, no offense 10thZodiac, but I think your an asshol* too!!!:)

[USMCmailman]

I assume you will be with Jane Fonda on the 17th?????

[10thzodiac]

Thats funny the Arabs calling American's, "Terrorists" !

Don't these goofs know were the good guys, why all the fuss about democracy, it works for us ?

I'll tell you what, if they came over here and tried to impose their ways on me, I'd get my gun and shoot someone.

[USMCmailman]

:marine:

[jryanjack]

DW - the NPA - or New People's Army was/is a terrorist organization who's primary goal was the removal of US Forces from the Phillipines, they bombed a few buildings, planted a few IED's, and kidnapped and murdered several US Servicemen back in the 80's and 90's. Now that the bases are closed I'm sure that they've moved onto something else.

The Red Brigades bombed the US Emabasy in Greece in the 70's and I believe that they kidnapped a US Army general.

Neither group is Muslim - or Arab.

With Mcveigh, I've never heard of the conspiracy theory - however, how many people on death row blew up a federal building killing a couple hundred people? Also, how many people are on death row from a federal sentance and not a state one? If you are convicted of a federal crime the appeals process is shorter.

[rktect3j]

"Oil is much too important a commodity to be left in the hands
of the Arabs."
-- Henry Kissinger,
US Secretary of State under Presidents Nixon & Ford

You mean to protect Americas interests. I am talking about the reasons set forth and given to congress and the American people prior to invading Iraq. 2 seperate issues if you would like to discuss either.

[10thzodiac]

You mean to protect Americas interests. I am talking about the reasons set forth and given to congress and the American people prior to invading Iraq. 2 seperate issues if you would like to discuss either.

I assume that you are speaking that the "Decider" is the one who gave the reasons set forth and given to Congress and the American people prior to invading Iraq.

I prefer Kool-Aide myself if your speaking about numb-nuts. Even our Former USMC Major Ritter, UN Weapons Inspector pre-Iraq war knew better there were no WMD's and told the world. Not to mention our USMC 4 Star General Antony (Tony) Zinni, Bush's and Rumsfeld's Middle East expert and former Commander in Chief Middle-East that advised Bush & Rumsfeld pre-Iraq war that Saddam was not a threat that he was contained. General Zinni Later to be disowned and labeled an anti-semitic because he said it was the Neo-Cons [Jews] that wanted this war ?

What part of oil do you not understand ?

[rktect3j]

I assume that you are speaking that the "Decider" is the one who gave the reasons set forth and given to Congress and the American people prior to invading Iraq.

I prefer Kool-Aide myself if your speaking about numb-nuts. Even our Former USMC Major Ritter, UN Weapons Inspector pre-Iraq war knew better there were no WMD's and told the world. Not to mention our USMC 4 Star General Antony (Tony) Zinni, Bush's and Rumsfeld's Middle East expert and former Commander in Chief Middle-East that advised Bush & Rumsfeld pre-Iraq war that Saddam was not a threat that he was contained. General Zinni Later to be disowned and labeled an anti-semitic because he said it was the Neo-Cons [Jews] that wanted this war ?

What part of oil do you not understand ?
You still need to seperate "America's interests" in general and the reason set forth for going to war specifically in relation to 9/11. You want to back your position up with a few people in the know and ignore the other 99% of our experts and leaders who thought it a good idea at the time. Great. You found the five people who had it right. Great arm chair quarterbackin. Your team still lost.

[10thzodiac]

You still need to seperate "America's interests" in general and the reason set forth for going to war specifically in relation to 9/11. You want to back your position up with a few people in the know and ignore the other 99% of our experts and leaders who thought it a good idea at the time. Great. You found the five people who had it right. Great arm chair quarterbackin. Your team still lost.

If it makes you feel better, keep telling yourself whatever you like to hear.

[rktect3j]

If it makes you feel better, keep telling yourself whatever you like to hear.

Are you just putting on an act for me or are you always this hard headed ? Sheeesh !!!
Hard headed? I guess that works for you. I just use my noodle in an everyday common sense way. But I have time on my side. I'm a patient man. The truth will out. It always does.

[10thzodiac]

The truth is stranger than fiction, e.g. Usama bin Laden # 1 Priority, Saddam's WMD, etc.

What ever happened to "Believe nothing you hear and only half of what you see" ?

American's gotta get back to basics !!!

The Bush's are right, they, the "Decider's" are the education Presidents http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/mesg/tsmileys2/18.gif

[HOLM]

The truth is stranger than fiction, e.g. Usama bin Laden # 1 Priority, Saddam's WMD, etc.


What ever happened to "Believe nothing you hear and only half of what you see" ?

American's gotta get back to basics !!!

The Bush's are right, they, the "Decider's" are the education Presidents

OBAMA did he say OBAMA... nope...... Usama.... God the two sound so much alike in so many ways I tend to get them confused.. Sorry


I think I said it before in this thread but lets talk about ww2 in more detail... FDR stuck his head in the sand for ohhh what 10- 15 years... Hitler told the world many times just what he planned .. Shoot he didn't even try too hide it.. But still in the late 30's you can find MANY polls that say that the American people say that we should stay out of all foreign wars.. Then the Japs bomb us killing what about 3000 people... (that number of dead seems to be coming up a lot lately doesn't it?) But it took a Jap attack before the US would do a dog gone thing..

As a result 56 MILLION people died.. Truman took over and had the lowest approval rating of ANY US president.. EXCEPT.. ABE... Truman had the guts to do something that was against the advice of many great advisor's and generals and the end result was the world almost instantly became a safer place to be.. It wasn't for years and years after this event that Truman got any credit for doing a good thing.. In fact during the time most of the major media the day had lots of not nice things to say about Truman.. (Everyone remembers the Dewy Defeats Truman story but there were MANY others)

Yeah so Bush went on the attack... He didn't wait for the Islamic fascists to build a big ass army... and kill 56 MILLION.. But I have heard them that is their plan...

To bad they didn't kill just a few more so someone would have the guts to put them in the history books with the NAZI's where they frign belong

:tank::tank::tank:

[10thzodiac]

Can you explain why the Supreme Allied Commander WW II said this about defensive wars then ?

“When people speak to you about a preventive war, you tell them to go and fight it. After my experience, I have come to hate war. War settles nothing.” ~ Dwight D. Eisenhower.

And don't tell us you can type in colors again too, we already heard that one.

[HOLM]

LOL.. I don't try to be rude.. I am just that way..


So you don't believe that anything was settled during WW2.. Should we have not stopped the German Advance???? Heck they Germans never bothered us.. Only the Japs....

[10thzodiac]

Good trade off, Russians, for Germans, Chinese for Jap's. Do you suggest we go after Russians and the Chinese before they get us too, after all they are a bigger sworn enemy of ours, more so than wasting our time, treasure and blood fighting camel jockeys who are fighting among themselves ?

Good logic, maybe the "Decider's" next Education Secretary http://www.leatherneck.com/forums/images/icons/icon14.gif

Ike knew the score !

[HOLM]

We already took out the Russians once "cold war"

I think the biggest problem we face now is the the Mexicans.. I am a subsciber to the "borders, Language, culture" defintion of a county and they are fixing to wipe us out..

If Iran gets a nuke... Do you think they will use it????

[10thzodiac]

We already took out the Russians once "cold war"

I think the biggest problem we face now is the the Mexicans.. I am a subsciber to the "borders, Language, culture" defintion of a county and they are fixing to wipe us out..

If Iran gets a nuke... Do you think they will use it????

Illegal immigration has always been a problem in America, ask any Indian !

There is nothing wrong with Mexicans, just like religions, it's just some of the God Damn people in them !

As far as Nukes goes, only Christians have used them so far, maybe gods chosen people [Neo-Cons] will be next to use them ?

Religion hardens hearts and enslaves minds, just like Nationalism does between countries and peoples, Us -vs- Them mentality !

[FistFu68]

:evilgrin: WHO ACTUALLY USED THE BIGGEST,CONVENTIONAL BOMB;IN HISTORY?:evilgrin: :iwo:

[10thzodiac]

22,000-pound Grand Slam bomb, 4.144 kg (9,135 lb) Torpex explosive.

I got a couple left from WW II, do you need one ?

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[rktect3j]

22,000-pound Grand Slam bomb, 4.144 kg (9,135 lb) Torpex explosive.

I got a couple left from WW II, do you need one ?

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Nice. But I'd rather have a daisy cuter. Got any of those?

[10thzodiac]

During the Vietnam war, the US had earlier scrapped most of their blockbusters and had to buy them back (de-armed) from scrap-yards at exorbitant prices, so our bombers would have some bombs to drop on a third world country that never attacked us. A little known fact.

[rktect3j]

During the Vietnam war, the US had earlier scrapped most of their blockbusters and had to buy them back (de-armed) from scrap-yards at exorbitant prices, so our bombers would have some bombs to drop on a third world country that never attacked us. A little known fact.
Ahhhh, that capitalism and entrepreneurship. You gotta love the right.

[10thzodiac]

Amen, don't fall off http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/mesg/tsmileys2/03.gif

[FistFu68]

:evilgrin: NOT BAD, BUT I SHOULD HAVE WORDED IT DIFFERENTLY.THE BOMBING OF THE MARINE BARRACK'S IN BEIRUT,WAS THE LARGEST NON-NUKE BLAST USED IN HISTORY SO FAR???:usmc: :iwo:

[HOLM]

Why do you stay in the USA Mr Zodiac??

Since you clearly despise your own country

[10thzodiac]

Why do you stay in the USA Mr Zodiac??

Since you clearly despise your own country

Be careful what you want for other people, they might start thinking what is good for you too.

Washington didn't move to France because he wasn't happy with his government, he kicked King George out. Get the idea ?

You can't answer intelligently to a good argument so you attack the author, that's not becoming of a gentleman.

Are you a mental dwarf ?

[HOLM]

That is not an attack.. I was an honest question.... And even with that being said... I will never claim gentleman stautus for my own.. Gentleman is a title for those to weak willed and spineless to speak the truth...

And you do not dispute the fact that you despise this great country now do you???

Yes I get your point about washington...

But don't forget... Saddam had WMD's We know this because we sold them to him... He just couldn't keep his finger off the trigger.. so we punched him is his fat mouth in 91... He still wanted to run his fat mouth and threaten the world.. So in 2003 we hunted his ass down and hung him from the tallest tree... Now thIS piece of crapp in Iran wants to play games and threaten my country...... I say the weather report from tehran should tell me that it will be 55,000 degrees if the SOB doesn't told just as he is frign told...

We worked to hard for this country to have some piece of crapp with a hair trigger blow it up... OR TRY AND TAKE OVER MY COUNTRY FROM THE INSIDE OUT....

No I am not a mental dwarf....


besides in the last thread we met your brought up some bill but only seemed concerned with some little part of it and didn't want to look at the big pictue of what effect that bill would really have had????

Do you still think you want me to tell you what those other lines were all about?????

[10thzodiac]

No, of course it isn't, not if the person is completely crazy, but how often do you come across that? Most crazy people are half crazy or a quarter crazy, something like the way Jack Nicholson was in "As Good as it Gets." How do you treat them? Do you argue back knowing that they may not be listening?

A further complication is the fact that some half crazy people seem to know the difference in principal between right and wrong. They seem to have a moral sense that can be appealed to. Maybe no one ever does. I don't know of any books or magazines that are written exclusively for the mentally ill. On the other hand they may hear an exceptional amount of moral philosophy from people they irritate, more than the rest of us do. It's hard to generalize; there are so many kinds of crazy. Some of them are nice people, some of them are jerks.

In my opinion it's a good idea to explain why what they're doing is irritating you, even if the explanation would be painfully obvious to any normal person. It may not do any good but you never know. Like I said, there's all kinds of crazy. Maybe at the bottom of the twisted tunnel in their minds somebody's listening.





http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/2366/3023/400/aab20g.jpg


WHAT DO YOU THINK?

[DWG]

Heck they Germans never bothered us.. Only the Japs....[Quote]



Don't want to interrupt the flow of thought(?) here; just a historical clarification.
Actually, the Germans declared war on us, after we declared war on Japan; they were allies of each other, remember. Suprisingly, Hitler was thrilled to do it!

[FistFu68]

:evilgrin: SO MY MARINE BROTHER,#10Z;THEY DID WRITE A BOOK FOR MY HALF- CRAZY AZZ~IT'S CALLED THE (UCMJ)S/F PEACE OUT!!!:D :iwo:

[HOLM]

Don't want to interrupt the flow of thought(?) here; just a historical clarification.
Actually, the Germans declared war on us, after we declared war on Japan; they were allies of each other, remember. Suprisingly, Hitler was thrilled to do it!

I use the Iraq inviasion/WW2 comparision a lot and no one ever brings that up. It is one of the best counter points they could make and it is always missed... :)

Saddam had a history of unprovoked attacks and

Didn't Al Queda declare war on the world.. Or did I hear them wrong???


But the way I here them... every chance they get.... they make it clear that they have declared war...

[10thzodiac]

http://www.armywivesforums.com/forums/images/smilies/41616-4.gif

[FistFu68]

(lmfao) #10~you The Man~brother!!!:

[HardJedi]

aww who cares about all this anyway? everything going on today is all Bill Clintons fault anyway ;)

[HOLM]

Well did these Islamic Extremist groups declare a Jihad... or war.... on the frign world or not????

[rktect3j]

Well did these Islamic Extremist groups declare a Jihad... or war.... on the frign world or not????
There are many people who want to give these people/animals a pass because they do not represent an identifiable target such as a country/land mass. It is very poor thinking like this that will get us living back in the dark ages once again. If you can not hold the individuals responsible for their actions then you have to hold the countries responsible for the actions of its citizens.

[rktect3j]

There are many people who want to give these people/animals a pass because they do not represent an identifiable target such as a country/land mass. It is very poor thinking like this that will get us living back in the dark ages once again. If you can not hold the individuals responsible for their actions then you have to hold the countries responsible for the actions of its citizens.
Hell, I know people who make up reasons for us going to war with Iraq, in order to villify America, and then want to argue with me about those reasons.

[HOLM]

Hell, I know people who make up reasons for us going to war with Iraq, in order to villify America, and then want to argue with me about those reasons.

:thumbup::thumbup:

Yeah its all about the oil..... I stick with my point if we wanted oil we would have went to Canada.. They have more.. and would probaly welcome us as liberators..

[USMCmailman]

HardJedi:

You are Far closer to the truth than anyone here will admit!!!!!!!!!!

[HOLM]

Hey I never understood what was so wrong with Clinton???

I mean besides being totally morally bankrupt... Is there really not a good reason to try and not take a stand on any issue.. I mean come on.. If you just follow the polls. People will like you and you will have lots of friends..

That Leadership and acountabilty stuff is way overrated....

:scared:

[HardJedi]

HardJedi:

You are Far closer to the truth than anyone here will admit!!!!!!!!!!



I know. ;)
Somalia, Bosnia, Rawanda


( especially Somalia)

[USMCmailman]

RIGHT ON!

Or as the Romans said " E pluribus fukem"

[fmoyer]

Man it is good to see there as many people out there that don't know anything more than I do about this whole subject, but it is fun to read how bright some people think they are. Being the old country boy I am I still believe what my DI told me " some people just need killin" that was his thoughts on why God made Marines, to take care of that problem. Still think he is right.