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kentmitchell
12-29-06, 06:51 AM
Marines Launch Functional Fitness Concept
The Marine Corps has issued an administrative message asking for debate within the Corps on the most effective approach for preparing Marines physically and mentally for the demands of combat, with a particular focus on the military occupational functional requirements of each job. The message, MarAdmin 579/06, notes that the physical preparedness required for effectiveness in combat "rivals the requirements of professional athletes," and concludes that current physical fitness training practices fail to take advantage of recent developments in athletic preparation in many sport disciplines. The goal, says the message, is to provide functional fitness exercises to "mimic the compound motions required for performance of physical tasks in combat" on a daily basis.

SuNmAN
12-29-06, 10:29 AM
The PFT requirements are a JOKE.

If you're under 30 years old and you can only do 3 pullups, run 3 miles in 28:00 and do what 55 or so crunches in 2 minutes, you're a disgrace and don't belong in the United States Marine Corps.

I believe I've been flamed for this before, but if we want to make this claim - the claim to be "the finest fighting force on earth", then Marines better be able to pull their weight above a bar over 3 times and not be getting a heart attack after running half a mile.

I don't care if we have to trim our Corps in half for this to happen. Let the US Army take over some of the stuff that we do then.

But I suggest if you can't do:

7 pullups
24:00 3 mile run
80 crunches in two minutes

you are not allowed to go to boot camp

and anytime you fall below such requirements, you are non-rec'ed for promotion.

Oh yeah, I've got another rant

Swim Qual 4 is a joke. Sorry for all of you non-swimmers but M-A-R-I-N-E implies water.

My best friend is a Swim-4 and I tease him all the time about it.

Swim qual-3 should become the bare minimum.

If one day a US Navy ship was hit by a torpedo and capsized, all the Swim Qual 4 Marines on the ship would most likely drown to death if they didn't have a floatation device.

Oh yeah, if you're under 30 years old and you run a HALF AN HOUR 3 mile, you're automatically reduced in pay grade

thats a disgrace.

theres my rant, let the flames begin.

Quinbo
12-29-06, 12:31 PM
I once attended a training course where the very first T-1 day you took a PFT. If you did not score at least a 250 you packed your crap and went home.

The MC as a whole can not do that, for various reasons.

fastdraw
12-29-06, 03:02 PM
I can swim, but I haven't had much experiance. What is Swim qual 3 and 4?

SuNmAN
12-29-06, 08:43 PM
I once attended a training course where the very first T-1 day you took a PFT. If you did not score at least a 250 you packed your crap and went home.

The MC as a whole can not do that, for various reasons.


250 is high

I don't know if I can score a 250+ every single time due to my long arms I struggle to get above 14 on pullups

but by golly a 210 or so is a reasonable minimum requirement.

I'd much rather see us heavily reduced in size, increased in "eliteness" and let the US Army handle more.

Echo_Four_Bravo
12-30-06, 12:30 AM
My view is that anything under 225 is pretty poor for a Marine. Presently there is a 135 minimum passing score in addition to the minimums for each event. I would like to see that raised to 185 or 200. If you can do 20 pull ups and 100 crunches, I am OK with you running a slower time. If you run 18:00 and do 100 crunches, then fewer pull ups is OK. But the present system is a joke. I am out of shape, and I know I can do 100 crunches in 2 minutes. So, that means if I get the minimum on the run (which is more of a fast walk) and three pull ups, I would pass a PFT. That is just wrong.

But, I would like to see the PFT change. I would rather there be pull ups, push ups, sit ups, a hump with 30-40 pounds (light load), a shorter run, and some sort of more intense cardio test... maybe being forced to run 5 400m sprints in under 75 seconds each. It would take longer to do, but it would be a better test of combat fitness.

SuNmAN
12-30-06, 12:48 AM
My view is that anything under 225 is pretty poor for a Marine. Presently there is a 135 minimum passing score in addition to the minimums for each event. I would like to see that raised to 185 or 200. If you can do 20 pull ups and 100 crunches, I am OK with you running a slower time. If you run 18:00 and do 100 crunches, then fewer pull ups is OK. But the present system is a joke. I am out of shape, and I know I can do 100 crunches in 2 minutes. So, that means if I get the minimum on the run (which is more of a fast walk) and three pull ups, I would pass a PFT. That is just wrong.

But, I would like to see the PFT change. I would rather there be pull ups, push ups, sit ups, a hump with 30-40 pounds (light load), a shorter run, and some sort of more intense cardio test... maybe being forced to run 5 400m sprints in under 75 seconds each. It would take longer to do, but it would be a better test of combat fitness.

physical fitness standards need to be vastly improved in my opinion

when I see a "Marine" (and I'll use that term with loathe in this case) carry a sack of crap in his midsection and runs like a half an hour PFT - "the world's finest fighting force" is the FARTHEST thing from my mind.

Such a man is NOT combat effective.

If you're under 30, you better be in tip top shape. I don't care about old Colonels and First Sergeants that have done their time. They won't be in the line of action anyway.

But if you're a younger Marine and you run anything less than a first class PFT, you're a dishonor.

Quinbo
12-30-06, 01:05 AM
Marines like liberty, medals, money and beer in that order. Come up with a PFT medal or a special $50 a month incentive to excell on the PFT .... Heck I used to tell the lads that anyone beats me...

Quinbo
12-30-06, 01:28 AM
I for quite a while was the administrator for the unit weight control program at Quantico. One early morning I took the doughnut crew clear out on the very edge of TBS and we did our warm up there and took off running. It was gonna be about 6 miles back to WTBN. We ran and ran. I did laps around them to try and keep everyone motivated and trotting along. I was such a stud I could stop and do twenty push-ups then get up and still be right with them. We got about 3/4 of a mile from camp and I told them all that anyone beats me in cool down is optional. I turned on the wheels and flew in there firm in the knowlege that our PT session was not over. Maybe 3 minutes later the chief instructor from sniper school come rolling in in full battle dress, took off his gas mask and set down his barrett. All he said was I almost had you Quinn..... I was reeling you in. Heck I didn't know he was even out there. Then he says "what are we doing for a cool down" LOL.

I guess if you are tough and rough and hard to bluff there is an old gunny out there somewhere that can put on a gas mask and in boots nearly out run you.;)

clemdog
12-30-06, 02:35 AM
My Rifle – The Creed of a United States Marine

This creed, accredited to Major General William H. Rupertus, USMC (Deceased) and still taught to Marines undergoing Basic Training at the Recruit Depots at San Diego and Parris Island, was first published in the San Diego Marine Corps Chevron March 14, 1942.

1. This is my rifle. There are many like it, but this one is mine.

2. My rifle is my best friend. It is my life. I must master it as I must master my life.

3. My rifle, without me, is useless. Without my rifle, I am useless. I must fire my rifle true. I must shoot straighter than my enemy who is trying to kill me. I must shoot him before he shoots me. I will …

4. My rifle and myself know that what counts in this war is not the rounds we fire, the noise of our burst, nor the smoke we make. We know that it is the hits that count. We will hit….

5. My rifle is human, even as I, because it is my life. Thus, I will learn it as a brother. I will learn its weaknesses, its strength, its parts, its accessories, its sights and its barrel. I will ever guard it against the ravages of weather and damage as I will ever guard my legs, my arms, my eyes and my heart against damage. I will keep my rifle clean and ready. We will become part of each other. We will ….

6. Before God, I swear this creed. My rifle and myself are the defenders of my country. We are the masters of our enemy. We are the saviors of my life.

7. So be it, until victory is America’s and there is no enemy, but peace!!

Roogger
12-30-06, 04:09 AM
[quote=SuNmAN]

If you're under 30 years old and you can only do 3 pullups, run 3 miles in 28:00 and do what 55 or so crunches in 2 minutes, you're a disgrace and don't belong in the United States Marine Corps.

quote]

If you only do that you "pass" each event but your score is still to low so you still fail..

In the Marines, bare Minimum is still a failure. 1st class PFT all the way.

SuNmAN
12-30-06, 11:14 AM
Windsprints prove nothing? <br />
<br />
I've never been to combat so this is a question - <br />
<br />
correct me if I'm wrong but isn't combat akin to an athletic event? Would you not have to run a hundred meters,...

SuNmAN
12-30-06, 11:19 AM
[quote=SuNmAN]

If you're under 30 years old and you can only do 3 pullups, run 3 miles in 28:00 and do what 55 or so crunches in 2 minutes, you're a disgrace and don't belong in the United States Marine Corps.

quote]

If you only do that you "pass" each event but your score is still to low so you still fail..

In the Marines, bare Minimum is still a failure. 1st class PFT all the way.


Make first class PFT THE bare minimum for EVERYONE like we do for Officer Candidates.

Unless you've over 30 then we can decrease the standard slightly

Quinbo
12-30-06, 11:48 AM
Maybe keep the 3 events as is and add the O-course in as a timed event. Wind sprints does I guess test your speed but does not test your stamina.

SuNmAN
12-30-06, 12:11 PM
Maybe keep the 3 events as is and add the O-course in as a timed event. Wind sprints does I guess test your speed but does not test your stamina.

the way I see it is: if we want to make claims like - "we're the finest fighting force in the world" then EVERY MAN under the age of 30 better at LEAST be in shape (as in run a 225 or better)

we're only as strong as our weakest link

Zulu 36
12-30-06, 01:09 PM
I recommend reading a book written by S.L.A. Marshall called "A Soldier's Load and the Mobility of a Nation." It might be a little tough to find, but worth the read if you are interested in fitness as it relates to combat.

Marshall wrote that even a man in excellent physical conditon, well enured to carrying his combat load in training, will wonder where his physical conditioning went when under fire and under extreme survival stress (i.e., fight or flight syndrome).

Those who have seen the elephant can probably attest that when under fire and people are getting hurt and killed around you, your legs seem to turn to stone, you are out of breath with minimal effort, and you get terribly tired feeling far faster than you think you should. Also, shortly after the combat episode, troops tend to want to fall out and take a nap. Leaders have to fight this urge in themselves and their troops if taking a nap is not yet appropriate. This all part of normal fear response, particularly in combat inexperienced troops. The effect moderates slightly with experience and exposure to combat conditions. Experienced troops learn when things are only slightly, moderately, or really dangerous. To inexperienced troops, everything is really dangerous.

Marshall agrees that soldiers must be in top physical condition in order to overcome the debilitating effects of combat stress and still maintain some semblance of effectiveness. An out-of-shape soldier or Marine will have a much worse time and be even less effective. Same as in training.

I could go on at length about the human autonomic nervous system and the subdivisions of the sympathetic and parasympathetic nervous systems, but I won't.

Suffice it to say that physical conditioning isn't everything in combat effectiveness, but it is a very important aspect. Mental conditioning is probably more important. The more survival stress one encounters and overcomes in training, the easier (relatively speaking) combat will be mentally and physically.

I also recommend reading Marshall's "Men Against Fire: The Problem of Battle Command." This book resulted in much of the combat firearms training seen today, such as reactive humanoid targets, MILES, marking cartridges, and many other methods.

Some people criticized Marshall's data collection methods as unscientific, but he never claimed them to be - he was a historian. But many of his conclusions are plain common sense and when implimented - work. So much for demanding empirical studies at all times.

Two, more recent books, is "On Killing" by LtCol Dave Grossman (USA, Ret) and "On Combat" by Grossman and Loren Christensen (a retired cop). I highly recommend both to any student of combat, either military or police. Read Marshall's stuff first if you can.

Two other excellent books are "The Face of Battle" by John Keegan and "War: The Lethal Custom" by Gwynne Dyer.

Yet another book, dealing heavily with the physiology of survial stress is "Sharpening the Warrior's Edge: The Physcology and Science of Training" by Bruce Siddle (a noted police trainer).

SuNmAN
12-30-06, 02:07 PM
thanks, I'll definitely keep my eyes open for those books

crate78
12-30-06, 02:50 PM
I'm not up on the latest PFT's, but I recall at one time when I was active part of the PFT was to sprint 50 yards, pick up a man of approximately your size, and shoulder-carry him back to the finish line, carrying your TO weapon at the same time. Then reverse roles and you would be the one carried. Naturally, men of the same size tended to group together. There was a time element involved, but I can't recall what it was.

And, back then, men over 40 were exempt from the PFT. We called them "Menopause Marauders".

SF
crate

Zulu 36
12-30-06, 04:46 PM
I read about a difference in training v. combat performance someplace (can't remember to save myself), but it did involve the Marine Corps.

In planning an operation, troops were exercised on the plan and they were able to take large chunks of terrain despite tough op-for and strict umpiring against the attacking forces. In the real operation, the troops were only able to traverse less than 1/4 of the distance taken in training before collasping in exhaustion even though enemy resistance was less than planned and trained against.

This was entirely due to survival stress and the aftermath reaction (or after the adrenaline dump is over).

Like operating in extreme cold or hot weather, troop efficiency will be much reduced once fear response kicks in.

Quinbo
12-31-06, 11:46 PM
You know...... I have met many Marines. There were some that I wondered why they weren't in charge of everything under the blue sky and some that I wondered if they could possibly walk past a...

SuNmAN
01-01-07, 04:06 AM
I can probably shoot better than them too.

clemdog
01-01-07, 08:48 AM
I can probably shoot better than them too.


Why don't you tell us how you saved Pearl Harbor too?

capmarine
01-01-07, 11:57 AM
there are all different ways to workout-the PFT,functional fitness,which i think will be a good thing.im 58-i jog on the treadmill-do my 3miles usually under 30min.;do other routines on it too,a hill routine for ex.i do bodywt execise,i find these help greatly-do pyramids with chins/pushups/situps/dips.weights,do those too.aerobic-do the staircase mach and eliptical
variety is the spice of life
and when i carried a gun,my Glock,on duty,i could shoot that too,thanks to the Corps.

SuNmAN
01-01-07, 02:09 PM
Why don't you tell us how you saved Pearl Harbor too?


nah, there's a fine line between confidence, cockiness and being a wacko and I'd rather not flirt with the wacko part.

Sgt Leprechaun
01-01-07, 09:27 PM
Bottom line, Marines, and American's in general, are in better shape today than the Marines of 'yesteryear' no matter who they were. THAT having been said, it should also be noted that the level of pain tolerance and general 'hard core' ability of those "Old Corps" Marines put some of our younger Marines to shame. Recall that these men were used to hardship and pain that would put us to shame.

Comparing today's Marines to "Old Corps" Marines is apples and oranges.

Quinbo
01-01-07, 10:35 PM
Well said Sgt Leprechaun. Everyone should strive to improve themselves, seek leadership positions, and make a mark for themselves. Anyone seeking to advance themselves by eleminating the competition has been watching too many reality shows!

horselady
01-03-07, 12:12 PM
Question: Do women Marine recruits have to meet the same
physical reqs that the men do? If not, why not?

Sgt Leprechaun
01-03-07, 12:33 PM
Yes, basically. The only 'buy' women get are they do the flexed arm hang instead of regular pullups. Otherwise, they have to run 3 miles, and do crunches. They also get a few extra minutes to run 3 miles.

Standards are also slightly relaxed after age 27, and again at age 40, but not by much.

drumcorpssnare
01-03-07, 12:50 PM
Apples and Oranges...yeah. Times have changed; so has training. Possibly the only unchangeable aspect is our "Espirit de Corps". And THAT intangible factor has caused the death of many adversaries.
But, our Corps is a 'living entity' that evolves as needed. I didn't undergo the "Crucible" because it wasn't a part of recruit training back then. And while I trained with the M-14 and M-16...my dad trained with the M-1...and my grandfather with the '03 Springfield. We're all still Marines though.

I'm curious though, about ideas for "Pshycological Training" for Marines, to better prepare them for the sheer horror of war. We keep our bodies in shape; we train w/ weapons; we learn our history to retain our pride...and sure, our Drill Instructors do a number on our minds. I'm talking about maybe some live, uncensored footage of war, up close and personal. While the recruits are "watching" this "movie", the sounds and smells of battle are piped in, to give the most realistic representation of "real war." I don't know.

What do you think?

drumcorpssnare:usmc:

iamcloudlander
01-03-07, 02:15 PM
While reading these posts concerning the Marine Corps PT standards I can only wonder about some of the changes that have been made since I was in the Corps.
#1 PT was done while wearing full utilities and combat boots ,not gym clothes and Nike running shoes. Reason given was "you won't be wearing gym shorts in combat"
#2 Of what value is a pull up in combat--for that matter what value is a "crunch" and if you have to run more than a few yards in combat you're in a bad situation already.
#3 Since the inception of motorized combat troops, long hikes walking patrols or the carrying of heavy arms is a thing of the past.
My question is this why worry so much about PT unless it pertains to actual combat conditions.
I know for a fact that most military people do not spend their off duty hours PT'ing and as far the ones that are out of shape the IED's bullets bombs etc don't take any longer to kill them as it would a super in shape person.
The PFT is a joke when I had to run the PFT we did everything we could to get out or running it, I have been taken out of the dentists chair and made to run it and when we did run it we would usually gang up and walk and have a nice little 3 mile hike.
But when it mattered myself and these same men came through and we did our duty. Yes I am a Winger and proud of it but because of the out of shapers like myself who care less about how long it takes to run 3 miles or even how may situps or pullups (don't forget those awful push ups)
we can do or the size of our biceps or chest--we were still able to keep our aircraft flying 24/7 loaded with the bombs and bullets that were delivered to the enemy.
My closing comment to this will be let those that want to PT go to the gym.