Marine Conscientious Objector?????

[jinelson]

Marine Seeking Discharge Sent to Iraq <br />
By Associated Press <br />
Fri Nov 24, 8:00 AM <br />
<br />
PHILADLPHIA - A Marine from New Jersey was deployed to Iraq this month despite being recommended for a military...

[SuNmAN]

that coward is a disgrace to America and the United States Marines.

[OLE SARG]

Him and his lawyer (???) both need to have their nuts cut off just under the chin!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

SEMPER FI,

[Zulu 36]

I went to Vietnam with VMA-211 during the 1972 Easter Offensive, along with VMA-311 and other MAG-12 elements. Shortly after arriving, and a few rocket attacks later, two idiots in VMA-311 decided they were COs.

They were transferred to the MABS-12 engineer detachment and spent the rest of their overseas tour filling sandbags and maintaining bunkers, a minimum of 12-hrs per day, seven days per week. They got no days off and no R&R. Both were corporals and were frequently assigned to details supervised by lance corporals. Luckily for both, they already had about seven or eight months in on their tour so they didn't have to shovel dirt the whole time MAG-12 was in-country (nine months). They were shunned by everyone I knew and spoken to only to be given orders. I considered them the scum of the earth (still do).

They did stick to their guns and never recanted their CO claim despite the slave labor conditions.

[foxman]

This D****m Scum Sucker needs to be granted his CO status and put his ass in The Brig for the rest of his enlistment. He sure as Hell won't have to kill anybody there. Then Discharge him with a Fully...

[MOUNTAINWILLIAM]

WELL, DUH!! What did these *******s think they were joining? The whole purpose of the military is to kill, maim and destroy the opposition. Give the SOB a UD (along with the rest of his ilk).

:evilgrin:

[Seeley]

Big Chicken Dinner's for all the OC's if you ask me. Screw 'em.

[SuNmAN]

I went to Vietnam with VMA-211 during the 1972 Easter Offensive, along with VMA-311 and other MAG-12 elements. Shortly after arriving, and a few rocket attacks later, two idiots in VMA-311 decided they were COs.

They were transferred to the MABS-12 engineer detachment and spent the rest of their overseas tour filling sandbags and maintaining bunkers, a minimum of 12-hrs per day, seven days per week. They got no days off and no R&R. Both were corporals and were frequently assigned to details supervised by lance corporals. Luckily for both, they already had about seven or eight months in on their tour so they didn't have to shovel dirt the whole time MAG-12 was in-country (nine months). They were shunned by everyone I knew and spoken to only to be given orders. I considered them the scum of the earth (still do).

They did stick to their guns and never recanted their CO claim despite the slave labor conditions.

lol thats actually a little bit respectable...

[SgtHMH]

They should have to stay and carry out the rest of their contract. They joined the Marine Corp, went through Boot Camp, went to their MOS school. Now when they feel like they will be activevated they do the CO thing. Naw this is the little whimpy way of doing it, section 8 bull crap. If they don't stand their duty, Brig time or worse hard time. Sound off Marines.

Semper Fi

Sgt. Hoss

[SuNmAN]

They should have to stay and carry out the rest of their contract. They joined the Marine Corp, went through Boot Camp, went to their MOS school. Now when they feel like they will be activevated they do the CO thing. Naw this is the little whimpy way of doing it, section 8 bull crap. If they don't stand their duty, Brig time or worse hard time. Sound off Marines.

Semper Fi

Sgt. Hoss

I agree completely....dont get me wrong I only said it was a tiny bit respectable because they at least didn't cave due to the slave labor conditions.

[rb1651]

Send him to Leavenworth, put him in general population, and leak the word that he's a child molester. If he survives the amount of time that's left on his contract, give him his Dishonorable.

[DWG]

The key word here is &quot;joined&quot;, not drafted, not forced to serve. They entered a contract they had no intention of honoring. They are guilty of fraud, if nothing else. Apparently they learned nothing...

[Old Marine]

This guy joined the reserves thinking all he had to do was go to meetings and collect a check. Supprise, Supprise, now he has to do something for the check. I doubt his clam of being a CO., its more like being a coward.

[OLE SARG]

These *******s knew what they were getting into when they signed their enlistment contract. THEN, the **** hits the fan (COMBAT), and their yellow stripes start to glisten!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

SEMPER FI,

[10thzodiac]

Just Curious

Has anyone ever figured out yet which is better, a dead hero or a live coward

http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/mesg/tsmileys2/06.gif

[BEARMANNN]

He should have thought about this before he joined our Beloved Marines. Marines are on the earth for one purpose and one purpose only: To Fight the Good Fight and Die if Ordered to do so. That's our job. Clear and Simple.

When given an order, we reply, "Aye, Aye Sir" and get the job done.

End of post!

[OLE SARG]

I'll throw that right back at ya - what do you say??????

SEMPER FI,

[10thzodiac]

A General tells his army of 17-21 year old soldiers, "tomorrows battle is going to be a difficult one, most of you will not survive". The next day as the General predicted, most did not survive the battle.

The following day the same General says that to his Army of 40 + year olds, "tomorrows battle is going to be a difficult one, most of you will not survive". The next day nobody shows up http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/mesg/tsmileys2/11.gif


A child of five would understand this. Send someone to fetch a child of five. ~ Groucho Marx

[BEARMANNN]

I stand by what I have stated earlier. A Marine does what he is told, NO questions!
To question an order is to cause you and your BUDDIES great danger.

Aye, Aye Sir!

:flag:

[DWG]

Just Curious

Has anyone ever figured out yet which is better, a dead hero or a live coward

http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/mesg/tsmileys2/06.gif


We all die eventually, even you Zodiac; it is the manner in which we live our lives that counts!

[DWG]

A General tells his army of 17-21 year old soldiers, "tomorrows battle is going to be a difficult one, most of you will not survive". The next day as the General predicted, most did not survive the battle.

The following day the same General says that to his Army of 40 + year olds, "tomorrows battle is going to be a difficult one, most of you will not survive". The next day nobody shows up

A child of five would understand this. Send someone to fetch a child of five. ~ Groucho Marx


This is why armies are made up of 17-21 year olds; They are invulnerable-40 year olds know better-that's why they are sr. officers and politicians!:usmc:

[SgtHMH]

Well Marines if I remember the whole time in Boot Camp we all learned Marine History of past Combat. The Marine's Hymn is bast on combat, one of our motos is "First to Fight". In World War I there was a Army CO, that got the MOH, Sgt. York. I think in some way when they do this this has to be a breach of contract. They joined, they were not drafted. If they were drafted and the whole time from when they stepped off the bus they said they were a CO, that would be differant, but how can you go through all the training and never say anything about anything then after awhile come up with it. The saying is " Never Promist A Rose Garden".

Semper Fi.

Sgt. Hoss

[redtiger37]

I was wondering, he enlisted in 2002, was called to active duty in 2003 didn't file for CO status until 2006. So what happened in these last 3yrs to cause him to file for CO status, as far as I can...

[greensideout]

Unless it has been changed, the rule applied to being a CO requires that the person claiming to be a CO is currently practicing his/her faith as such and is a current member of a church which must be verified by letters from leaders of the church.

[10thzodiac]

As some of you may know by my ranting and raving, I was in harms way a couple of times but dam lucky. <br />
&lt;O:p&gt;&lt;/O:p&gt; <br />
What you do not know is that, after Okinawa when I reported to last duty station...

[greensideout]

.

[SuNmAN]

you have a solid point here

[outlaw3179]

A coward dies a thousand deaths...A soldier dies but once.

[jinelson]

Very well said outlaw and very true.

[Sgt Leprechaun]

&quot;&quot;I believe that God has given man free will,&quot; he said in legal documents. &quot;By surrendering my will to the military, I realize that I have willfully propagated violence.&quot; <br />
<br />
Rogowskyj, now 22, joined...

[Camper51]

That coward will get just what he deserves. I applaud and commend General O'dell who saw through his charade and sent his ass off to Iraq and didn't worry about the political implications of his actions...

[ggyoung]

Off with his head.

[10thzodiac]

SOME PEOPLE DO NOT HAVE TO BE CONSCIENTIOUS OBJECTORS


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</TD><TD vAlign=top width=15>http://www.nhgazette.com/NH_images/invisible.gif</TD><TD vAlign=top width="100%">Name: George W. Bush (R-TX)
Born: 1946
Employer: The U.S. Taxpayer
Conflict Avoided: Vietnam
Notes: You know when a guy walks away from a National Guard obligation during wartime and gets away with it, he must come from "a good family." Not that his daddy had anything to do with his getting a Guard slot in the first place - oh, no ...





</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

[Dave Coup]

I say serve or go to the brig. Too bad the days of Cake and Wine are gone to go with the brig time. This is just another opportunistic punk c@#ksucker.
Screw him and his all his ilk.

SF
Dave

[10thzodiac]

I say serve or go to the brig. Too bad the days of Cake and Wine are gone to go with the brig time. This is just another opportunistic punk c@#ksucker.
Screw him and his all his ilk.

SF
Dave

Hey Dave, I thought it was p i s s and punk, where did you get cake & wine from ? Which begs the question, what Marine Corps were you in LOL


ANOTHER CHICKENHAWK

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</TD><TD vAlign=top width=15>http://www.nhgazette.com/NH_images/invisible.gif</TD><TD vAlign=top width="100%">Name: Richard "Dick" Cheney (R-WY)
Born: 1942
Employer: The U.S. Taxpayer
Conflict Avoided: Vietnam
Notes: Says he had "other priorities." You bet he had other priorities. Imagine how early in life you must begin scheming to get away with what this guy has. He was too busy thinking about Halliburton to go fight Charlie.

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

[jinelson]

by Dave Coup - Screw him and his all his ilk.


Dave by "and all his ilk" I hope that you meant to include 10thzodiac the thrasher of the administration and any one else that opposes our sworn enemy lol. I would hate to see a good brother like him get left out of any fun times.

Jim

[greensideout]

He joined in '02. <br />
He was ordered to active duty in '03. <br />
He requested a CO discharge in '06. <br />
He was &quot;drafted&quot; to Iraq in Nov. '06. <br />
He has not gone AWOL. <br />
He is not in the brig. <br />
He is serving...

[10thzodiac]

[quote]by Dave Coup - [Screw him and his all his ilk.
/QUOTE]

Dave by "and all his ilk" I hope that you meant to include 10thzodiac the thrasher of the administration and any one else that opposes our sworn enemy lol

Jim


IS THIS THE ADMINISTRATION YOU ARE REFERRING TOO ? THE CHICKENHAWK ADMINISTRATION

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</TD><TD vAlign=top width=15>http://www.nhgazette.com/NH_images/invisible.gif</TD><TD vAlign=top width="100%">Name: I. Lewis "Scooter" Libby
Born: 1950±
Employer: The U.S. Taxpayer
Conflict Avoided: Vietnam
Notes: I. Lewis “Scooter” Libby is Dick Cheney’s Chief of Staff. He’s had a string of no-doubt well-paying government jobs in State and Defense. He’s also practiced law. In fact, he was Marc Rich’s lawyer for years. Yes — the Marc Rich whose pardon from President Clinton was excoriated by so many high and mighty Republicans. Maybe if Scooter had been a better lawyer, his client wouldn’t have needed that pardon. Speaking of legal questions, “Scooter” is alleged by some to have traded energy stocks while helping his buddy Dick Cheney cook up a new energy policy in secret. He’s also suspected of having inserted the bogus “Niger yellowcake” reference into the President’s State of the Union address. As if all that weren’t enough, he’s also a top suspect in the outing of CIA operative Valeria Plame. Clearly “Scooter” is a ballsy kind of guy, so it’s a complete mystery to us why, when he graduated from Phillips Andover in 1968, he didn’t enlist in the Marines or go Airborne instead of going to Yale.
</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

[Dave Coup]

Jim-You can bet your a$$ it included Zodiac.

SF

Dave

[drumcorpssnare]

My grandfather was a "field music bugler" in the Marine Corps in 1915, at the age of 14. He was late for "Morning Colors" one day, and received "...five days of bread and water in the brig..." Got that info from his SRB.

drumcorpssnare:usmc:

[Sgt Leprechaun]

Ha! That's great. I've got some courtmartial records from Haiti, circa about 1928 or so, with some of the same thing. None signed by Chesty or anything, tho. (Dangit). Gotta love ebay...

Hey, 10Z, that's great you post those various and sundry things; lets see some similiar stuff about, oh, say, Mike Moore, George Soros, Nancy Pelosi, Ted Kennedy...Obama, Edwards, etc. The list is endless...

I'd have to ask, "the point" to the posting tho... None of em claimed CO status to get out of anything, which is what this thread started out as :)

[aang]

Damn idiot doesn't know what he is throwing away. I would switch places with him in a heart beat.

[outlaw3179]

Leprechaun save your breath , its the same ole story with Z. Cut and paste , cut and paste, no original thoughts, all he likes to do is stir the pot.

[drumcorpssnare]

outlaw3179- 10thz is tough to figure out. He does seem to be an intelligent person, but... It seems like 99.9% of his posts are someone else's words. And for having served in the Corps, he sounds way far to the left. I'm not sayin' he's a bad person, I just wonder about his thought process. Does he really think everything will be just "peachy" once America is out of Iraq?

SEMPER FI:usmc:
drumcorpssnare

[Sgt Leprechaun]

Agreed about switching places...and at 42...I'm tryin...got just enough time left to give it another shot..if the Corps thinks they need a 42 year old Intel Sergeant in the Reserves...

What the hell...worth a shot, anyway. Packet is in..now just waiting on the slow grinding pace of HQMC... :)

[10thzodiac]

outlaw3179- 10thz is tough to figure out. He does seem to be an intelligent person, but... It seems like 99.9% of his posts are someone else's words. And for having served in the Corps, he sounds way far to the left. I'm not sayin' he's a bad person, I just wonder about his thought process. Does he really think everything will be just "peachy" once America is out of Iraq?

SEMPER FI:usmc:
drumcorpssnare

1) The insurgents know we can put another 50,000 troops there for five months, but not for five years.

2) Staying the course is not working

3) Defeat, withdraw

Remove from your vocabulary the words success or victory if you can't come up with a viable alternative to the above !

SF
Cut & Paste aka 10th http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/mesg/tsmileys2/03.gif

[SuNmAN]

Hey Dave, I thought it was p i s s and punk, where did you get cake & wine from ? Which begs the question, what Marine Corps were you in LOL


ANOTHER CHICKENHAWK

<TABLE cellSpacing=5 cellPadding=0 width="94%" align=center border=0><TBODY><TR><TD vAlign=top align=middle width=145>
http://www.nhgazette.com/shop/uploads/cheney_dick.jpg




</TD><TD vAlign=top width=15>http://www.nhgazette.com/NH_images/invisible.gif</TD><TD vAlign=top width="100%">Name: Richard "Dick" Cheney (R-WY)
Born: 1942
Employer: The U.S. Taxpayer
Conflict Avoided: Vietnam
Notes: Says he had "other priorities." You bet he had other priorities. Imagine how early in life you must begin scheming to get away with what this guy has. He was too busy thinking about Halliburton to go fight Charlie.

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

I never liked Dick Cheney. Good thing the VP doesnt do **** unless the President is incapacitated.

[SuNmAN]

outlaw3179- 10thz is tough to figure out. He does seem to be an intelligent person, but... It seems like 99.9% of his posts are someone else's words. And for having served in the Corps, he sounds way far to the left. I'm not sayin' he's a bad person, I just wonder about his thought process. Does he really think everything will be just "peachy" once America is out of Iraq?

SEMPER FI:usmc:
drumcorpssnare


dude, I consider myself a moderate - that is somewhere between liberal and conservative

but yall gotta realize - being liberal is not some cardinal sin. Its not even a bad thing. It is just a difference in political opinion.

I think being far right is every bit as radical and dangerous as being far left.

[drumcorpssnare]

10thz- I have, in fact, posted my views on how I think the war should be fought. From my knowledge of military dictums, it is first important to 'know your enemy.' It is also important to fight 'the same war' your enemy is fighting. The solution becomes 'unviable' when being 'politically correct' is more important than defeating the enemy.
This terrorist insurgency holds the upper hand, because they have a small, invisible, inexpensive group of fighters, with a loose-knit logistics and command structure. Compared to what America is doing, they have it real simple. They know this. They are hoping we will cut and run, due to apathy, so they can completely overtake the country. Then they can dismantle any semblance of a popular government, and install their clerics into positions of authority.
If America would set aside all this PC crap, and implement a geurilla insurgency against these terrorists, the radicals would be 'trumped', and soon realize they no longer hold the upper hand. Reminds me of when I was literally commandeered to fight a forest fire, in Montana. We fought the fire, with fire.
You seem to be an advocate of bringing our troops home, and letting the Iraqi people deal with their own issues. I predict that if America leaves in the near future, a total civil war will erupt. The ensuing result will make the current siyuation look like a kindergarten tea party. Then, when Iraq is nothing more than complete and utter waste, Iran and Syria will move in to take control. All the while, fanning the flames of hatred against the American 'infidels.' They will become all the more bold in their sneaky underhanded attacks against innocents.
I hope you will share with us, in your own words, the choices you would make regarding Iraq, and what you think the consequences of those choices would be.
On a personal note, my comments toward you are not meant to be condemning. Rather, I'm trying to understand your thought process, and your rationale for the things you post.

SuNmaN- I consider myself a moderate/conservative. I agree that radicals, be they left or right, are potentially dangerous. But I also feel very strongly about American's rights to express their opinions, regardless of whether they are left, right, or middle of the road. When dealing with foreign enemies, I like Teddy Roosevelt's axiom,"Speak softly, and carry a big stick." Attempt to reason with them. When they refuse to listen to reason...kick their a$$e$!

SEMPER FI:usmc:
drumcorpssnare

[DWG]

SOME PEOPLE DO NOT HAVE TO BE CONSCIENTIOUS OBJECTORS




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</TD><TD vAlign=top width=15>http://www.nhgazette.com/NH_images/invisible.gif</TD><TD vAlign=top width="100%">Name: George W. Bush (R-TX)
Born: 1946
Employer: The U.S. Taxpayer
Conflict Avoided: Vietnam
Notes: You know when a guy walks away from a National Guard obligation during wartime and gets away with it, he must come from "a good family." Not that his daddy had anything to do with his getting a Guard slot in the first place - oh, no ...







</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

Having a pilots' liscense might have had something to do with his guard slot. I really get tired of hearing this crap. Any one with flight experience or a college degree will go to the head of the line over high school grads or normal walk-ins. It always amazes me that people will give Bush hell and never say a word about slick willy who, did in effect, dodge his contractual obligation. Would you rather have "bona-fide" warriors like kerry,gore or murtha leading the nation? We would still be assessing blame of 9/11 with no action taken had this been the case. And Americans would be afraid to leave their homes due to the threat of terrorist attacks. I'm not wild about Bush myself, too damn liberal for me, but he was better than the other choices offered!

[6yrforMar]

Marine Seeking Discharge Sent to Iraq <br />
By Associated Press <br />
Fri Nov 24, 8:00 AM <br />
<br />
Why join the Military in the first place if think you are a C.O.I was in the USMCR myself many years ago,never...

[6yrforMar]

Marine Seeking Discharge Sent to Iraq <br />
By Associated Press <br />
Fri Nov 24, 8:00 AM <br />
<br />
PHILADLPHIA - A Marine from New Jersey was deployed to Iraq this month despite being recommended for a military...

[SuNmAN]

10thz- I have, in fact, posted my views on how I think the war should be fought. From my knowledge of military dictums, it is first important to 'know your enemy.' It is also important to fight 'the same war' your enemy is fighting. The solution becomes 'unviable' when being 'politically correct' is more important than defeating the enemy.
This terrorist insurgency holds the upper hand, because they have a small, invisible, inexpensive group of fighters, with a loose-knit logistics and command structure. Compared to what America is doing, they have it real simple. They know this. They are hoping we will cut and run, due to apathy, so they can completely overtake the country. Then they can dismantle any semblance of a popular government, and install their clerics into positions of authority.
If America would set aside all this PC crap, and implement a geurilla insurgency against these terrorists, the radicals would be 'trumped', and soon realize they no longer hold the upper hand. Reminds me of when I was literally commandeered to fight a forest fire, in Montana. We fought the fire, with fire.
You seem to be an advocate of bringing our troops home, and letting the Iraqi people deal with their own issues. I predict that if America leaves in the near future, a total civil war will erupt. The ensuing result will make the current siyuation look like a kindergarten tea party. Then, when Iraq is nothing more than complete and utter waste, Iran and Syria will move in to take control. All the while, fanning the flames of hatred against the American 'infidels.' They will become all the more bold in their sneaky underhanded attacks against innocents.
I hope you will share with us, in your own words, the choices you would make regarding Iraq, and what you think the consequences of those choices would be.
On a personal note, my comments toward you are not meant to be condemning. Rather, I'm trying to understand your thought process, and your rationale for the things you post.

SuNmaN- I consider myself a moderate/conservative. I agree that radicals, be they left or right, are potentially dangerous. But I also feel very strongly about American's rights to express their opinions, regardless of whether they are left, right, or middle of the road. When dealing with foreign enemies, I like Teddy Roosevelt's axiom,"Speak softly, and carry a big stick." Attempt to reason with them. When they refuse to listen to reason...kick their a$$e$!

SEMPER FI:usmc:
drumcorpssnare

Drumcorpssnare - we cannot fight a guerillam war against a guerilla force. I don't know how you supposed that would work but I'm sure the 4 star generals in the Pentagon probably would've thought of it already.

The fact is - we are in the light and the enemy is in the dark. We have military, logistical and civilian assets everywhere that the enemy can attack. While if we had to attack the enemy, we can't even tell if they are a combatant or not a lot of the times !!!

Guerrilla forces specialize in raids. What are we going to raid?? The enemy can hide in a building and snipe at our men who are easily identifiable in their desert cammies, or launch an RPG from around the corner at a Humvee or an APC.

How will we fight a guerilla war against the enemy? The enemy knows that all they need to do is kill a X number of US troops and we will leave. If we kill X number of terrorists, will they leave? NO !!!

We were in Vietnam for 20+ years and had to withdraw.
The Soviet Union was in Afghanistan for 10 years and had to withdraw
The same situation is unraveling in Iraq. I pray that we can make a radical change in our strategy, otherwise more AMericans will be killed in this long, drawn out war with an ambiguous objective.

This is NOT Political Correctedness. Perhaps there are over 3000 American families who are sick of seeing their and other people's sons and daughters killed for an objective that is still ambiguous to us because the government wants to beat around the bush to its people??

[SuNmAN]

Having a pilots' liscense might have had something to do with his guard slot. I really get tired of hearing this crap. Any one with flight experience or a college degree will go to the head of the line over high school grads or normal walk-ins. It always amazes me that people will give Bush hell and never say a word about slick willy who, did in effect, dodge his contractual obligation. Would you rather have "bona-fide" warriors like kerry,gore or murtha leading the nation? We would still be assessing blame of 9/11 with no action taken had this been the case. And Americans would be afraid to leave their homes due to the threat of terrorist attacks. I'm not wild about Bush myself, too damn liberal for me, but he was better than the other choices offered!

Bush is TOO LIBERAL for you???

OMG he is as conservative as you can GET since Ronald Reagan !!!!!


whats conservative enough?? Fascism??

cmon now dude !

Senator Barack Obama for President 2008 !

[10thzodiac]

Having a pilots' liscense might have had something to do with his guard slot. I really get tired of hearing this crap. Any one with flight experience or a college degree will go to the head of the line over high school grads or normal walk-ins. It always amazes me that people will give Bush hell and never say a word about slick willy who, did in effect, dodge his contractual obligation. Would you rather have "bona-fide" warriors like kerry,gore or murtha leading the nation? We would still be assessing blame of 9/11 with no action taken had this been the case. And Americans would be afraid to leave their homes due to the threat of terrorist attacks. I'm not wild about Bush myself, too damn liberal for me, but he was better than the other choices offered!

DW, perhaps you voted for one or the other or both, a draft dodging Arkansasian or a a golden haired zoomie in the Texas air guard ! I voted for neither.

Have you ever considered, perhaps conscientious objectors are not dumb cowards and believe John Cary, just they can't afford to go to college like smart chicken-hawks and get stuck in Viet-Iraq ?

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</TD><TD vAlign=top width=15>http://www.nhgazette.com/NH_images/invisible.gif</TD><TD vAlign=top width="100%">Name: Donald "The Don" Rumsfeld
Born: 1932
Employer: The U.S. Taxpayer
Conflict Avoided: Korea
Notes: When the shooting started in Korea Rummy here was either 18, or about to turn 18. Not to worry for him, though — he spent the war at Princeton, wearing a ROTC uniform. Once the war was over he flew jets for the Navy for a few years. Defenders of Rumsfeld will say he’s no chickenhawk — he served, and it’s not his fault the war ended before he got his commission. To which others answer, “plenty of farmers and mechanics and kids just out of high school served. Anyone as full of whatever that stuffing in him is, could have tried out for a battlefield commission.”






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[DWG]

DW, perhaps you voted for one or the other or both, a draft dodging Arkansasian or a a golden haired zoomie in the Texas air guard ! I voted for neither.

Have you ever considered, perhaps conscientious objectors are not dumb cowards and believe John Cary, just they can't afford to go to college like smart chicken-hawks and get stuck in Viet-Iraq ?

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</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE> I fail to see the comparison-no one in the middle east was drafted because they could not get in college(or for any other reason). A CO that is sincere does not ENLIST with no contractual reservations (corpsman, medic, chaplain,etc.) I respect any CO that said back in the day "hell no, I won't go" and stood their ground; any that just tucked their chicken sh*t tail between their legs and ran off to canada should be forced to stay there forever. Hell Zodiac, is every one who did not go to Nam a chickensh*t? Sign me up and most of this forum in that case. Since you voted for neither candidate does that mean you stayed at home on election day cutting and pasting gripes about both? Right now I am a very disillusioned republican who will probably vote libertarian in the future-if our leaders(?) can' t handle the gov then we should put in someone who doesn't believe in large government.

[DWG]

Bush is TOO LIBERAL for you???

OMG he is as conservative as you can GET since Ronald Reagan !!!!!


whats conservative enough?? Fascism??

cmon now dude !

Senator Barack Obama for President 2008 !

I consider Reagan our best president of the century(history, not the media, will also judge Nixon as a great president). Reagan backed the soviet union down (and out). Bush is conservative in name only, if he were a conservative the gov would not have continuued to grow without limits, our borders would not be open doors to any one with the wherewithal to walk a couple of miles and fed spending would be down. I love how libs use fascism as any retort to any criticism of left wing excesses.As to Obama, his name seems to have become very popular in the last few months. Who is he? What has he done? Where does he stand, on anything? It reminds me of when every one got the hots for Colin Powell. "OOO, he'd be a great president" but when you started asking people, why? they would just hem and haw about how he went from poor Jamaican immigrant background to being a general. Big deal, he was a mediocore officer who played the affirmative action card at the ideal time in history for it and got the golden ring-other than that, what has he done? what does he stand for?etc. If the republicans had any one with one tenth the character of Reagan they would never have lost the congress, as it is I foresee a bleak future of the gimmees voting in democrats just so they can sack the treasury, while letting the barbarians overrun our walls to the destruction of us all.:(

[SuNmAN]

I fail to see the comparison-no one in the middle east was drafted because they could not get in college(or for any other reason). A CO that is sincere does not ENLIST with no contractual reservations (corpsman, medic, chaplain,etc.) I respect any CO that said back in the day "hell no, I won't go" and stood their ground; any that just tucked their chicken sh*t tail between their legs and ran off to canada should be forced to stay there forever. Hell Zodiac, is every one who did not go to Nam a chickensh*t? Sign me up and most of this forum in that case. Since you voted for neither candidate does that mean you stayed at home on election day cutting and pasting gripes about both? Right now I am a very disillusioned republican who will probably vote libertarian in the future-if our leaders(?) can' t handle the gov then we should put in someone who doesn't believe in large government.


Libertarian = waste your vote

thats the nature of our system. Only two viable political parties.

The electoral college makes it worse.

[DWG]

Libertarian = waste your vote

thats the nature of our system. Only two viable political parties.

The electoral college makes it worse.
That's always been my argument against voting for the Libertarians too. But, it doesn't seem to make any difference anymore if we vote in a democan or a republicrat, soon as they can get their hand in the cookie jar they forget who sent them and why. Just maybe, if enough people register their dissatisfaction with these jerks, it might cause them to pull their snouts out of the trough long enough to remember what they are suppossed to stand for. I ain't holding my breath, I'm just sick of my vote not meaning anything either way. If someone would erect a platform of a "war on oil", closed borders, reduced spending and smaller gov. and mean it, they'd have my support. I'm no tree hugger, I think we should exploit every drop of oil on our own continent while we work to kick the habit; should we ever convert to non-petroleum energy these hajis would no longer have the resources to cause problems and could settle back into their 8th century "paradise" and no one would care.

[SuNmAN]

I consider Reagan our best president of the century(history, not the media, will also judge Nixon as a great president). Reagan backed the soviet union down (and out). Bush is conservative in name only, if he were a conservative the gov would not have continuued to grow without limits, our borders would not be open doors to any one with the wherewithal to walk a couple of miles and fed spending would be down. I love how libs use fascism as any retort to any criticism of left wing excesses.As to Obama, his name seems to have become very popular in the last few months. Who is he? What has he done? Where does he stand, on anything? It reminds me of when every one got the hots for Colin Powell. "OOO, he'd be a great president" but when you started asking people, why? they would just hem and haw about how he went from poor Jamaican immigrant background to being a general. Big deal, he was a mediocore officer who played the affirmative action card at the ideal time in history for it and got the golden ring-other than that, what has he done? what does he stand for?etc. If the republicans had any one with one tenth the character of Reagan they would never have lost the congress, as it is I foresee a bleak future of the gimmees voting in democrats just so they can sack the treasury, while letting the barbarians overrun our walls to the destruction of us all.:(

Reagan ran the Soviet Union into the ground? Please, you are giving him much more credit than he deserves. The Soviet Union was on the road to collapse before Reagan even assumed the Presidency. Nixon may not have been a bad president. I actually didn't think he was a bad president at all. But the Watergate scandal ruined him. I'm sorry, but I would like MY PRESIDENT to have a virtue called INTEGRITY. Something which Nixon did NOT have.


As for Barack Obama and Colin Powell coming from humble roots - that is GREAT. Unlike George W. Bush who came from an EXTREMELY RICH AND AFFLUENT family and had everything handed to him all his life.

What the hell does Bush know about what it's like to be an average American struggling to make ends meet? What does George Bush know about poverty? Nothing and nothing at all.

Colin Powell was a professional soldier for 35 years. For 35 years he served his country. He fought in Vietnam. He was deployed to South Korea. He has been awarded the Bronze Star with Combat V device. He has the Purple Heart...and unlike Bush, he is an EXPERT DIPLOMAT who doesn't **** everyone off. I say he'd make a helluva better President than George W Bush did!

What about Senator Barack Obama? No, he does not have a stunning resume and a long list of accomplishments like Colin Powell. However, if you listen to one of his speeches - he is young, invigorated and he is passionate about America.

He has the intangible values you look for in a leader of the nation - charisma, decisiveness, INTEGRITY, passion and vision.

People ask - what EXPERIENCE does he have? Ladies and Gents - serving as a US Senator gives you a helluva lot more experience in the field of INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS than does the Governor of Texas. And as you all will probably agree - diplomacy is NOT George Bush's strong suit. In fact he is highly deficient in this area.



As for "liberals" always slapping the term fascism to retort left wing excesses?

dude - bull**** and you know it. Conservative accuse liberals of being COMMUNIST 10x more often than liberals accuse conservatives of being fascist.

For an extreme conservative like you - moderacy is probably considered highly left wing in relative terms anyway.

[DWG]

For an extreme conservative like you - moderacy is probably considered highly left wing in relative terms anyway.
Absolutely; anyone left of Falwell is suspect-ya' commie liberal, ya!:p

[jinelson]

I have to stand with D W George on that! ROTFLMAO!

Jim


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v660/jinelson/lmaodog.gif

[DWG]

Reagan ran the Soviet Union into the ground? Please, you are giving him much more credit than he deserves. The Soviet Union was on the road to collapse before Reagan even assumed the Presidency. Nixon may not have been a bad president. I actually didn't think he was a bad president at all. But the Watergate scandal ruined him. I'm sorry, but I would like MY PRESIDENT to have a virtue called INTEGRITY. Something which Nixon did NOT have.



Nixon opened China and stopped a bad war.When we finally get past the watergate school of present reporters, history will not care much about a botched dirty trick. As to integrity, no politician is long in that department-not on the national level. It just depends on how well liked he/she is by the press. What would people have thought of Kennedy if they knew what the press at that time did. No president in my life time, at least, can claim they have not harbored secrets they don't want out. Most, if not all, will sell their souls for their taste of power. I think Reagan may be the most reputable man who has served in a long time. And yes, he forced the soviets, through their paranoia, to destroy their economy through the arms race and hastened, if not actually causing, their downfall by decades.
Per Colin Powell, I have admiration for his military record, but he showed nothing as far as a politician was concerned. Hell, that's actually a compliment. I think people tried to push him into the political arena and he was wise enough to decline. Rumor as to his command ability was that the plan he forwarded for Gulf War 1, was practically out of WW1, but that is just what I have heard.;)

[SuNmAN]

Nixon opened China and stopped a bad war.When we finally get past the watergate school of present reporters, history will not care much about a botched dirty trick. As to integrity, no politician is long in that department-not on the national level. It just depends on how well liked he/she is by the press. What would people have thought of Kennedy if they knew what the press at that time did. No president in my life time, at least, can claim they have not harbored secrets they don't want out. Most, if not all, will sell their souls for their taste of power. I think Reagan may be the most reputable man who has served in a long time. And yes, he forced the soviets, through their paranoia, to destroy their economy through the arms race and hastened, if not actually causing, their downfall by decades.
Per Colin Powell, I have admiration for his military record, but he showed nothing as far as a politician was concerned. Hell, that's actually a compliment. I think people tried to push him into the political arena and he was wise enough to decline. Rumor as to his command ability was that the plan he forwarded for Gulf War 1, was practically out of WW1, but that is just what I have heard.;)


I alredy said that I agree Nixon was not too bad of a President.

I also agree that Reagan was a President of strong character, decisiveness and leadership. Even though he is too conservative for my tastes, we was a great leader of our country because of his character.

[LivinSoFree]

This guy joined the reserves thinking all he had to do was go to meetings and collect a check. Supprise, Supprise, now he has to do something for the check. I doubt his clam of being a CO., its more like being a coward.

If that's the case, then his recruiter lied, his drill instructors lied, and his unit has kept him in the dark. I went in in 2004- and it was made VERY clear that being a reservist does NOT prevent you from going to combat, and in fact that it was highly likely that reservists would see deployments on a frequent basis. This was made clear my my recruiter, my drill instructors, and it's very apparent at the unit level.

Put him in an admin shop or something stateside. There are plenty of Marines who will never deploy just because of a twist of coincidences- and there are plenty others chomping at the bit to get the job done overseas. Yeah, this guy's a sh*tbird, but why waste the training on him? If they put him in a stateside, noncombatant position, he has NO case to get out, and we still get our money's worth from the training time put into him. Why waste more?

[10thzodiac]

We should look upon conscientious objection not as a scandal, but rather as a healthy sign. War will still not be replaced by more humane institutions for regulating conflict until citizens insist on principles of non-violence. John F. Kennedy once said, "War will exist until the distant day when the conscientious objector enjoys the same reputation and prestige as the warrior does today."

[SuNmAN]

that only applies to REAL conscientious objectors, which are few and far between. I'm willing to bet that 90% of the so called "CO"s are really just cowards.

[SkilletsUSMC]

that only applies to REAL conscientious objectors, which are few and far between. I'm willing to bet that 90% of the so called "CO"s are really just cowards.

We had a real one on our last deployment. He was in my fire team for a time, and was a stellar Marine before he moved to a new squad He was having problems with the idea of killing. He confided in me many times, and I told him he would be ok, and that we would do our damndest not to kill anyone who didnt deserve it.

He didnt go UA like I secretly thought he would, but after he saw an insurgent die right infront of him he freaked out. He was imediately moved to the comapny clerk position, and that was OK for all partys involved. Some Marines hated him, but I was happy for him. He was a good guy, but I couldnt trust him to have my back. I still talk to him every once in a while. I still like him, but I remind him constantly that he is dumb for joining the Marine Corps Infantry...;)

[10thzodiac]

Libertarian = waste your vote

thats the nature of our system. Only two viable political parties.

The electoral college makes it worse.

"God forbid we should ever be twenty years without such a rebellion. The people cannot be all, and always, well informed. The part which is wrong will be discontented, in proportion to the importance of the facts they misconceive. If they remain quiet under such misconceptions, it is lethargy, the forerunner of death to the public liberty. ... What country before ever existed a century and half without a rebellion? And what country can preserve its liberties if their rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms. The remedy is to set them right as to facts, pardon and pacify them. What signify a few lives lost in a century or two? The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants. It is its natural manure."

Thomas Jeffersons letter to William Stevens Smith (November 13, 1787), quoted in Padover's Jefferson On Democracy

[10thzodiac]

that only applies to REAL conscientious objectors, which are few and far between. I'm willing to bet that 90% of the so called "CO"s are really just cowards.

I don't believe Mohammad Ali was a real conscientious objector, he was being smart, which in my opinion is what the majority (90%) of conscientious objectors are up too, less a few wussies.

My brother, a conscientious objector (Korean conflict) was a running back for Proviso East High School the year they took the Illinois state championship, hardly a coward or wussy; track star and professional roller skater. Later semi-pro football and baseball.

One of our cousins, a Colonel promised him a stateside CO non-combatant position in the army, a golden hair boy, like Bush, but my brother felt indirectly he would be participating in killing and declined; the 10 %.

He served two years at Ashland Federal Penitentiary, KY and I thought boot camp was bad; you should hear some of the stories he told me. I'd take my chances in the military before Federal Prison. His turn key was a former Marine Captain that disliked CO's, do I need to say more ?

Up until 2001 I use to belong to the same health club as my high school coach, a former Marine Captain. He is the same age as my brother and a jock also. He was telling me when he went through OCS that they were making line officers out of all the jocks for Korea, he quit the team when he heard that and wound up in finance, hmmm...

SF
10th

[jgorosco]

He was telling me when he went through OCS that they were making line officers out of all the jocks for Korea, he quit the team when he heard that and wound up in finance, hmmm...


You are going to have to type slower for me. Your coach was already in OCS or was going into OCS? So your brother is close to 80? I am just having problems with your story. It seems 10zzzz, that you always have story for every argument. You have been there, done that, or know someone who has. You have lived an amazing life and just think you haven't fought in any conflict. Just imagine if you have?!?!

[iamcloudlander]

How did your brother wind up in prison for being a CO?
I have known a lot of jocks that were mean as hell on a campus but throw them into combat and they were just as scared as the rest of us. I agree with JGOROSCO as to your being a know it all been there done that to every thread posted here. I had a CO in Boot Camp there was a CO in our platoon, he to had joined but wouldn't commit to doing what the rest of us did. He refused to fire the rifle at the range and he (somehow) got to stay in the Corps. After qualifying was over and we returned to our area we had three non-quals which the Platoon Commander had us turn to on and beat the hell out of them especially the CO.
I have another point to ask you about...since you seem to want us to think of you as an knowledgeable person on all subjects then why don't you pay to become a member. It seems to me that the most vocal and with huge numbers of posts ie:you simply come here and voice your opinions but don't feel you should pay the membership dues. In my opinion if everyone payed then the site could use the dues to make it better for all. Besides it is only $40 or $50 that should not make anyone run out and file bankruptcy.

[10thzodiac]

You are going to have to type slower for me. Your coach was already in OCS or was going into OCS? So your brother is close to 80? I am just having problems with your story. It seems 10zzzz, that you always have story for every argument. You have been there, done that, or know someone who has. You have lived an amazing life and just think you haven't fought in any conflict. Just imagine if you have?!?!

Jason, didn't mean to confuse anyone. When I was quitting High School to join the Marines in 1960 that same coach told me that he was a Marine Captain, later in the late 90's he told me the story about OCS, I assume it while he was at OCS, unless I misunderstood.

My brother is 74 years old, 10 years older than me. The coach could possibly be a little older, but both Korean era 1951-1957 . My brother was about 18, 1951. Astronaut Eugene Cernan, as in "The Last Man On The Moon" fame, was on my brothers HS football team, is 73 and was commissioned in 1956 after college. Does that help with the dates ?

It may be a compliment that I have had an amazing life, but if I had to do it over, it would definitely be different, excepting more women less playing soldier. Old to fast smart to late.

As far as me thinking that I have never fought in any conflict sorta amazes me too. I was at ground zero for WW III, Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, The Cuban Missile Crisis. A reinforced Marine rifle company (garrison), 2nd BN, 1st Marines and my artillery battery B-1-11. The Russians had 43,000 full battle dressed troops and Castro had 270,000 troops not to mention the battle field nukes aimed at us, 12 Kiloton-range nuclear warheads mounted on Frog-3 "Luna" short-range artillery rockets. If the invasion by US forces had taken place, Soviet ground commanders had permission to launch tactical nuclear missiles at the invading US forces. As a result the US would has suffered 90-95 percent causalities, and most likely would have begun World War III. My Commanding officer, 1st Lt Skordis told us, "The American Invasion was canceled 1/2 hour before zero hour."

In August of 1964 I was with the newly formed 9th MEB, the first 7,000 Marines sent to Vietnam; we didn't know where we were going till we got there, at least none us peons knew.

Incidentally about a week or so before going to Vietnam, two corporals from my unit HQ-2-12, myself and another from S-2 had individual orders for Vietnam that were superseded by our unit going instead. When we were briefed, Colonel Crockett would only tell us it was a PCS tom a SE Asian country. I'm assuming it was Vietnam. The group I was to go with were all FO officers and FO team members, one of the Lt's was in my battery in the missile crisis. I was trying to get out of this one too, as I extended in the Marines 9 months to be with the 3rd Marine Division another 13 months, not a PCS to a SE Asian Country, breech of contract; I told the Colonel that too.

I wasn't suppose to Leave Okinawa until May of 1965, but they sent me home March 10th because I was to short to go back to Vietnam a second time with my unit, March 13th.

I managed to cheat the Grim Reaper once again before getting out. When I reported to last duty station in April of 1965, Service Battalion, 2<SUP>nd</SUP> MarDiv, the First Sergeant informed me that I and Warrant Officer Lee had orders to be part of the <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" /><st1:country-region><ST1:place>Dominican Republic</ST1:place></st1:country-region> invasion.

Luckily for me, a corporal I befriended in the office gave me a heads up that I didn’t have to go. There was a division order prohibiting deployment with less than 60 days active service remaining.
<?XML:NAMESPACE PREFIX = O /><O:P></O:P>
A few days latter the First Sergeant called me into the office and asked me if my field uniforms had arrived from <ST1:place>Okinawa</ST1:place> yet, if not he had a jeep to take me to cash sales. I asked why? He said, “Because you and Warrant Officer Lee are going to the <st1:country-region><ST1:place>Dominican Republic</ST1:place></st1:country-region>”. I then asked him, what about that Division order about less than 60 days active service. He replied, "I have a wavier for you to sign." http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/mesg/tsmileys2/23.gif

Warrant Officer Lee was killed by a sniper that week, his first day in the <st1:country-region><ST1:place>Dominican Republic</ST1:place></st1:country-region>, survived by his wife and small children. He had twenty-two years service.

Maybe I have lived an amazing life to some and do not realize it, possibly the life the guys in the Corps use to joke around about, saying, "I have been around the world, knocked every trick twice and seen everything except the wind."

P.S. We almost purchased a home in Makakilo a few years back, until my wife found out my multi-millionaire high school crush lives in Kailua. I'd be fishing with my buddy, Jason over at Kaneohe Bay.http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/mesg/tsmileys2/04.gif

SF
10th

[SgtHMH]

Marines in World War I there was a Army Conscientious Objector, that went on to win the Medal Of Honor. They do have it in them to fight and do their duty and hold their uniform in high esteam. Who was this Army Soldier I talk about.

Sergeant Alvon York

So when the **** hits the fan they do their duty as history has shown.

Semper Fi

Sgt. Hoss

[10thzodiac]

How did your brother wind up in prison for being a CO?

10th: Actually my brother wanted to join the Air Force before draft age, but mom wouldn't sign for him. She talked him into studying her religion until he was of age. Unfortunately he had already started an apprenticeship; later to be his undoing. He was learning how to become a machinist, not bad in-itself but where he was doing it was, a Naval munitions plant. Once he became baptized in his CO faith, he quit that job. Then later after being drafted, when brought to trial, the state made a big deal out of that he was working in a munitions plant while studying the faith and didn't take into account that after becoming a believer (baptism) he quit that job.

Iiamcloudlander: I have known a lot of jocks that were mean as hell on a campus but throw them into combat and they were just as scared as the rest of us. I agree with JGOROSCO as to your being a know it all been there done that to every thread posted here.

10th: Only a fool is not afraid; if I may, it reminds me of a cave diving scuba axiom, "There are bold cave divers and there are old cave divers, but there are no old bold cave divers." Devils Eye Cave, Jennie Springs, Florida, March,1978 http://jc-research.com/jim/diving-album/pages/cavern-royal.html

As far as me being a know it all been there done that: If I have I will post it, if I have not I won't. If someone feels they been left out, "I've been or done to much", is that my my problem http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/mesg/tsmileys2/06.gif

iamcloudlander: I had a CO in Boot Camp there was a CO in our platoon, he to had joined but wouldn't commit to doing what the rest of us did. He refused to fire the rifle at the range and he (somehow) got to stay in the Corps. After qualifying was over and we returned to our area we had three non-quals which the Platoon Commander had us turn to on and beat the hell out of them especially the CO.

10th: You see that, "I never knew" any CO's in my hitch, just some malingering Staff NCO's that feigned injuries or maladies trying to avoid the Cuban Crisis or Vietnam.

What's so hard about that: You have mice, I have beavers, http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/mesg/tsmileys2/04.gif !

iamcloudlander: I have another point to ask you about...since you seem to want us to think of you as an knowledgeable person on all subjects then why don't you pay to become a member. It seems to me that the most vocal and with huge numbers of posts ie:you simply come here and voice your opinions but don't feel you should pay the membership dues. In my opinion if everyone payed then the site could use the dues to make it better for all. Besides it is only $40 or $50 that should not make anyone run out and file bankruptcy.

10th: Speaking of knowledgeable persons on all subjects

Quote iamcloudlander: "since you seem to want us to think of you as an knowledgeable person on all subjects then why don't you pay to become a member ?"

10th: I got news for you iamcloudlander I've been a "Gold" paying member for a long time now! Maybe not a knock'em dead Platinum member, but at my age I don't even buy green bananas; I know the only thing I can't do, is not die.

Addressing what you feel as to my huge number of posts and opinions, "as long as I'm a paying member that's nobody's business excepting mine!"


Which Way Is Up

"Not worrying what the other other guy is doing but worrying about what you are doing!"

Simply put: You may recall you gym teacher telling you that when you are running in a race, not to look at what everyone else is doing, concentrate on what you are doing.

Anytime anyone thinks that I'm acting like I'm a knowledgeable person on all subjects, please humor me that I am http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/mesg/tsmileys2/29.gif

SF
Zody

[DWG]

but at my age I don't even buy green bananas; I know the only thing I can't do, is not die.
SF
Zody
Hell, last week you tried to tell me that you were selling lifetime warrantys and inferred you were not planning on dying-EVER!!:scared: :D

[SuNmAN]

I don't believe Mohammad Ali was a real conscientious objector, he was being smart, which in my opinion is what the majority (90%) of conscientious objectors are up too, less a few wussies.

My brother, a conscientious objector (Korean conflict) was a running back for Proviso East High School the year they took the Illinois state championship, hardly a coward or wussy; track star and professional roller skater. Later semi-pro football and baseball.

One of our cousins, a Colonel promised him a stateside CO non-combatant position in the army, a golden hair boy, like Bush, but my brother felt indirectly he would be participating in killing and declined; the 10 %.

He served two years at Ashland Federal Penitentiary, KY and I thought boot camp was bad; you should hear some of the stories he told me. I'd take my chances in the military before Federal Prison. His turn key was a former Marine Captain that disliked CO's, do I need to say more ?

Up until 2001 I use to belong to the same health club as my high school coach, a former Marine Captain. He is the same age as my brother and a jock also. He was telling me when he went through OCS that they were making line officers out of all the jocks for Korea, he quit the team when he heard that and wound up in finance, hmmm...

SF
10th

I'm sorry bro, I don't know your brother so I won't judge him, but being a stud athlete doesn't perclude someone from being a coward or a wussy. After all there are no bullet flying on the football field.

[10thzodiac]

Hell, last week you tried to tell me that you were selling lifetime warrantys and inferred you were not planning on dying-EVER!!:scared: :D

I hope everyone is as easy as you http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/mesg/tsmileys2/04.gif

[10thzodiac]

I'm sorry bro, I don't know your brother so I won't judge him, but being a stud athlete doesn't perclude someone from being a coward or a wussy. After all there are no bullet flying on the football field.

Complete agreement on above.

Hero's and cowards have dodging bullets in common, excepting the certainty of.

Hmmm...now I'm Confucius http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/mesg/tsmileys2/30.gif

SF
10th

[10thzodiac]

CO discharge is a long-established practice in the U.S. armed forces and always peaks in wartime. There were an estimated 200,000 COs in the Vietnam War, 4,300 in the Korean War, 37,000 in World War...

[KawiGunny]

I feel that anyone who starts whinning CO should be sent to Iraq and do a tour. Not on some base like Al Asad or somewhere nice like that. They need to be out in Al Qaim where I was. Better conditions there than I was expecting but still a shiit hole. Once their tour is up then they need to come back state side and be court martial and sentenced to a minimum of 5 years in Levenworth. I have no respect for people like this and it wouldn't bother me one bit to p*ss on their graves when they have left the face of the earth.

Just my 2 cents worth.
Semper Fidelis Marines

[DinkyDauMarine]

Is'nt it a contradiction of terms? Two words that should'nt even be used in the same sentence. Marine and conscientious objector. I saw people trying to get out of the Marine Corp for a variety of lame reasons. Why join in the first place? The key word being 'join'. I knew from the age of about 6 that I was going to be a Marine. I tell people that my U.S.M.C. tattoo is a birth mark. Semper Fi.

[DinkyDauMarine]

:usmc: Is'nt it a contradiction of terms? Two words that should'nt even be used in the same sentence. Marine and conscientious objector. I saw people trying to get out of the Marine Corp for a variety of lame reasons. Why join in the first place? The key word being 'join'. I knew from the age of about 6 that I was going to be a Marine. I tell people that my U.S.M.C. tattoo is a birth mark. Semper Fi.:evilgrin:

[10thzodiac]

Speaking of contradictions, I saw Marines being forced out of the Corps against their will while others were not. Heart murmurs they wanted you out, but epilepsy was OK.

We even an an epileptic in boot camp and in my first outfit. Not to be belittling them, but how would yo like like someone to start doing the "Saint Vitus' Dance" at your six ?

What is even more interesting, at ITR a Marine p*ssed in his canteen (to lazy to go to the head) and when the inspecting officer at a junk in the bunk saw that there was liquid in it, he poured it onto his display, only find out it was urine instead of water http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/mesg/tsmileys2/11.gif ! We never saw him again; what some people won't do to get out.

Go figure ~

[FistFu68]

:usmc: THE ONLY THING WRONG WITH ~(NIXON)~WAS, HE GOT CAUGHT!!!:usmc:

[SuNmAN]

:usmc: THE ONLY THING WRONG WITH ~(NIXON)~WAS, HE GOT CAUGHT!!!:usmc:

or that he had no virtue of integrity

[TractorEMT]

WOW... I just don't understand how someone could do that when there's so many individuals willing to serve their country and die! This makes me sick! So many individuals that we consider heros die serving their country and then there are these pieces of crap don't deserve to wear the uniform! Maybe it's just me, but having my family over there has made more of an impact on my life than I ever knew could happen. When I talk to my family and hear that he doesn't want to be called a hero or recognized for serving, those individuals who serve only to be recognized makes me sick!

[FistFu68]

:usmc: I'D LIKE TOO~ACCOMADATE YOU~SUNMAN~ON THIS POLITICAL,RAP!BUT IM A (FORMER WARRIOR)~POLITIC'S~&~RELIGION ARE BENEATH MY INTELLIGENCE~TOO SHARE WITH YOU~YOU'VE GOT 'NUMBA 10 TO TWIST YOU'R TAIL~SEMPER~FIDELIS!!!:usmc:

[10thzodiac]

I'D LIKE TOO~ACCOMADATE YOU~SUNMAN~ON THIS POLITICAL,RAP!BUT IM A (FORMER WARRIOR)~POLITIC'S~&~RELIGION ARE BENEATH MY INTELLIGENCE~TOO SHARE WITH YOU~YOU'VE GOT 'NUMBA 10 TO TWIST YOU'R TAIL~SEMPER~FIDELIS!!!:usmc:

<TABLE class=tborder cellSpacing=1 cellPadding=6 width="100%" align=center border=0><TBODY><TR title="Post 207397" vAlign=top><TD class=alt1 align=middle width=125>FISTFU68</TD><TD class=alt2>:usmc: THE ONLY THING WRONG WITH ~(NIXON)~WAS, HE GOT CAUGHT!!!:usmc:</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

It is hard to think of any other president in this century (Harding? Hoover?) whose tenure left the country with so many traumatic problems: Vietnam and its aftermath, runaway inflation, runaway entitlements, fiscal rupture, regulatory overkill. Any one of those (except maybe the last) is a mistake of the same magnitude as the Reagan deficits. Any two of them would be enough to consign Nixon to the bottom drawer. But all of them together! In the end, Nixon committed about as long a chain of devastating mistakes as it is possible for a single president to make, even in six years of trying hard. Worse, his mistakes have been gifts that keep on giving. We have spent the last two decades struggling to undo his errors, and may spend another two the same way. He left behind an embittered, polarized country, a nation disillusioned with its government, unsure of its place in the world, whiplashed by its economy and condemned to years of fiscal strife. If a good president builds confidence without making big mistakes, Nixon was as bad as they get.

[greensideout]

<TABLE class=tborder cellSpacing=1 cellPadding=6 width="100%" align=center border=0><TBODY><TR title="Post 207397" vAlign=top><TD class=alt1 align=middle width=125>FISTFU68</TD><TD class=alt2>:usmc: THE ONLY THING WRONG WITH ~(NIXON)~WAS, HE GOT CAUGHT!!!:usmc:</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

It is hard to think of any other president in this century (Harding? Hoover?) whose tenure left the country with so many traumatic problems: Vietnam and its aftermath, runaway inflation, runaway entitlements, fiscal rupture, regulatory overkill. Any one of those (except maybe the last) is a mistake of the same magnitude as the Reagan deficits. Any two of them would be enough to consign Nixon to the bottom drawer. But all of them together! In the end, Nixon committed about as long a chain of devastating mistakes as it is possible for a single president to make, even in six years of trying hard. Worse, his mistakes have been gifts that keep on giving. We have spent the last two decades struggling to undo his errors, and may spend another two the same way. He left behind an embittered, polarized country, a nation disillusioned with its government, unsure of its place in the world, whiplashed by its economy and condemned to years of fiscal strife. If a good president builds confidence without making big mistakes, Nixon was as bad as they get.


Could it be that you have Nixon confused with the man that started the Vietnam War, the Great Society and brought about a divided nation?
The man that said, "I will not send one American boy to die in Vietnam". Could you be talking about LBJ?

[10thzodiac]

Answer: <br />
<br />
What Nixon Wrought: The Worst Presidency of the Century <br />
<br />
The New Republic, May 16, 1994 <br />
<br />
Nixon revisionism was probably inevitable, and no doubt will continue stronger than ever in...

[SuNmAN]

:usmc: I'D LIKE TOO~ACCOMADATE YOU~SUNMAN~ON THIS POLITICAL,RAP!BUT IM A (FORMER WARRIOR)~POLITIC'S~&~RELIGION ARE BENEATH MY INTELLIGENCE~TOO SHARE WITH YOU~YOU'VE GOT 'NUMBA 10 TO TWIST YOU'R TAIL~SEMPER~FIDELIS!!!:usmc:


I can respect that bro.

[SuNmAN]

Could it be that you have Nixon confused with the man that started the Vietnam War, the Great Society and brought about a divided nation?
The man that said, "I will not send one American boy to die in Vietnam". Could you be talking about LBJ?

LBJ may have escalated but certainly did not start the Vietnam War.

[greensideout]

LBJ may have escalated but certainly did not start the Vietnam War.


August 4th, 1964

[10thzodiac]

Synopsis
}The siege of Dien Bien Phu, in which a guerrilla force of Viet Minh destroyed a technologically superior French colonial army, must rank with Waterloo, Gettysburg, Midway, Stalingrad, and Tet as one of the decisive battles in military history. Not only did Dien Bien Phu put an end to French imperial efforts in Indo-china, but it also convinced the Viet Minh, when they came to power in Communist North Vietnam, that similar tactics would prevail in their war with the United States. As an American army officer told Bernard Fall during the Vietnam War: What were doing here basically is, were exorcising Dien Bien Phu.Bernard Fall in this monumental work has written an exhaustive, revelatory, and vivid account of the battle, leading the reader from the conference rooms of the U.S. State Department to the French Foreign Office to the front lines of Indo-China and the strategy sessions led by General Giap and Ho Chi Minh. Among the many historical curiosities here disclosed is evidence that then-Secretary of State John Foster Dulles offered atomic bombs to the beleaguered French, and that then-Senator Lyndon Johnson played a key role in defeating a proposal to aid the French with critical air support. Without U. S. aid, the fortress at Dien Bien Phu fell on the very day that the cease-fire conference opened in Geneva. Based on hitherto unavailable documentation from the French Defense Ministry, and replete with detailed maps of the many assaults, Hell in a Very Small Place is a first-rate military history. But even more powerful is the political wisdom it imparts about a war that was not only the beginning of the end of the French colonial empire but a rehearsal for American involvement in Vietnam. }

[SuNmAN]

August 4th, 1964

I can agree with you that the Gulf of Tonkin Resolution massively triggered escalation for the Vietnam War...but I think the stage was set for an American confrontation with North Vietnam ever since Dien Bien Phu.

Kennedy was escalating in Vietnam before he was assasinated.

[SuNmAN]

LBJ was a terrible President though.

[10thzodiac]

LBJ was a terrible President though.

They told me if I voted for Goldwater there would be a war, they were right, I voted for Goldwater and there was a war !

SF
10th

[JimS]

The Man Needs To Go To The Brig Or Jail For Fraud...he Enlisted In 2002, Where Did He Think He Was Going...san Francisco ?? After His Fraud Jail Sentence Than Dh Him Out Of The Corps

[Sgt Leprechaun]

I have little or no sympathy for the fake CO's these days. None. Why? YA GOTTA RAISE YER HAND, LAD!

I'd be interested to know this kids MOS....was he a trigger puller, or a truck driver.

Either way, I think he's a coward. Eventually, the price he'll pay will be higher years from now than those of us who've served.

[jinelson]

Ouch! - easy on Motor T bro.

[Sgt Leprechaun]

No offense! It's not a job I could do (I have the mechanical skills of an idiot...)

I should have clarified the posting by saying it seems to me that many of these so called "CO" types are not out in the toolies everyday to begin with. (I know, this war, everyone is, and can be, a combatant..but hopefully you get the idea of what I'm trying to say).

Again, I don't want to get Motor T ****ed at me...cause I hate walkin when I don't have to!

[Quinbo]

Just Curious

Has anyone ever figured out yet which is better, a dead hero or a live coward

http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/mesg/tsmileys2/06.gif

Still trying to figure that one out.... which one are you?

[Ignition]

on a side note

Desmond Doss was also a medal of honor recepiant and was a CO


so there are a few out there


its the pussys that use CO to get out of combat.

There are many support roles in a deployed area that may never see the light of day in regards to combat.

Although would ask any of those CO's if they believe in the right of self defense then realize would you take another mans life to save your friends life... where do they drawl the line.

If they mean it they better damn tow the whole freaking anchor and follow what they mean... not just play the system to get a free ride away from deployment

[Zulu 36]

I have little or no sympathy for the fake CO's these days. None. Why? YA GOTTA RAISE YER HAND, LAD!

I'd be interested to know this kids MOS....was he a trigger puller, or a truck driver.

Either way, I think he's a coward. Eventually, the price he'll pay will be higher years from now than those of us who've served.

Yeah, be nice on Motor T. In Vietnam truck drivers had a very high casualty rate, I'll bet Iraq is exactly the same. At least half of my instructors in truck driver's school had Purple Hearts.

I got shot at frequently when driving between Bien Hoa and Long Binh. Had bullet holes in the back of my deuce, and watched a green tracer go across the hood of my truck once. And there isn't much you can do about it except keep going - faster if possible.

Regarding the CO, f*ck him and anyone who looks like him.

[MissMarine4012]

Desertion.
Firing squad.
Very simple.
:evilgrin:

[Echo4Kilo]

That was the first thought in my head. Thats fine, be a CO in the brig, and wear a orange jumpsuit and cut grass and pick up trash, its all you're worth. <br />
<br />
Its sad that some one may have to depend...

[bootlace15]

Well,the way I see it is they went through boot camp and made it. That shows they had nuts. Now not being a certified shrink,and not knowing how the friggen human mind always works,they should have...

[Echo4Kilo]

Bah, when I graduated Boot, the Drill Instructors gave us a little talk about "The 10% that slip through the cracks."

[Ignition]

echo4kilo.... when they talked to you.... did you happen to count and see if they were talking to 90% of the platoon when they told you this or was it 10% of the platoon



JK JK


hehe

[MGySgtSki]

I have little or no sympathy for the fake CO's these days. None. Why? YA GOTTA RAISE YER HAND, LAD!

I'd be interested to know this kids MOS....was he a trigger puller, or a truck driver.

Either way, I think he's a coward. Eventually, the price he'll pay will be higher years from now than those of us who've served.

Sgt L,

This guy is an admin clerk with 4th MarDiv........

S/F

[3077India]

I've been reluctant to respond to this thread, mostly because I think it too unbelievable. A Marine Conscientious Objector is about like aquiring a Ferrari and never going over 45mph. :confused: :nerd:

[Sgt Leprechaun]

Thank you MSgt.

An ADMIN clerk with 4th MarDiv???

Riiiiiight.

Dork.

[huey guns]

give them a short stick, make them walk point, check for IED's

[davblay]

Have you Marines heard about this court case?



In Florida, an atheist became incensed over the preparation of Easter and Passover holidays. He decided to contact his lawyer about the discrimination inflicted on atheists by the constant celebrations afforded to Christians and Jews with all their holidays while atheists had no holiday to celebrate. The case was brought before a wise judge. After listening to the long passionate presentation by the lawyer, the Judge banged his gavel and declared "Case Dismissed."

The lawyer immediately stood and objected to the ruling and said, "Your Honor, how can you possibly dismiss this case? Christians have Christmas, Easter and many other observances. Jews have Passover, Yom Kppur and Hanukkah......yet my client and all other atheists have no such holidays."

The judge leaned forward in his chair and simply said "Obviously your client is too confused to even know about, much less celebrate, his own atheists' holiday!"

The lawyer pompously said, "Your Honor, we are unaware of any such holiday for atheists. Just when might that holiday be, your Honor?"

The judge said, "Well it comes every year on exactly the same date.....April 1st! Since our calendar sets April 1st as 'April Fools Day,' consider that Psalm 14:1, Psalm 53 states, 'The fool says in his heart, there is no God.' Thus, in my opinion, if your client says there is no God, then by scripture he is a fool, thus April 1st is his holiday!"

Pray that some day our courts will be full of these kinds of judges.....maybe then , we can put God back where He belongs.........in everything we do.....

Way to go, Judge!

[10thzodiac]

<TABLE class=tborder cellSpacing=1 cellPadding=6 width="100%" align=center border=0><TBODY><TR title="Post 244901" vAlign=top><TD class=alt1 align=middle width=125>Bulkyker</TD><TD class=alt2>Quote:
<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=alt2 style="BORDER-RIGHT: 1px inset; BORDER-TOP: 1px inset; BORDER-LEFT: 1px inset; BORDER-BOTTOM: 1px inset">Originally Posted by 10thzodiac

Just Curious



Has anyone ever figured out yet which is better, a dead hero or a live coward

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
Still trying to figure that one out.... which one are you?

10thzodiac: I'm not the fool !!!



</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
http://www.edgeofsports.com/product/Whats-My-Name-Fool/cover.jpghttp://www.medaloffreedom.com/medfrlg[1].jpg

Ali becomes a Sunni Muslim

He refused to serve in the United States Army (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Army) during the Vietnam War (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vietnam_War) as a conscientious objector (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conscientious_objector), because "War is against the teachings of the Holy Qur'an. I'm not trying to dodge the draft. We are not supposed to take part in no wars unless declared by Allah or The Messenger. We don't take part in Christian wars or wars of any unbelievers."

The sheer hypocrisy. Just when you thought it you had seen it all. Earlier this week, George W. Bush announced (http://www.courier-journal.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20051104/NEWS0104/511040426/1008/NEWS01) that he was awarding the Presidential Medal of Freedom (http://www.medaloffreedom.com/) to a great American, Muhammad Ali.

Now Bush, accompanied by Cheney, fresh from accusing anti-Iraq war protesters of undermining our troops and not supporting the folly in the Middle East uses this great American to bolster his sagging popularity.

Ali was called a traitor, and accused of giving comfort to the enemy for his opposition to the disaster in Vietnam. Millions of Americans like Bush were mortified when Ali said, "No VietCong ever called me n*****.'"

http://media.newsobserver.com/smedia/2005/11/10/main-1086574-673941.embedded.prod_affiliate.3.jpg
President Bush hugs Muhammad Ali after presenting him with the Presidential Medal of Freedom.

[davblay]

?????????????????????????????? is all I can say! It's says it all!

[bootlace15]

well,well,It looks like 10th has it right again. It seems to me that George is talking out of both sides of his face. Then again maybe George turned out to be a CO. Fuk him and the Jet he rode in on.

I'm 100% disabled after stepping on a land mine. I think anybody that was wounded fighting for their Country or died serving their country deserve the Freedom Medal more than that bastard son of a B!tch that just received it.

Now thats an impeachment offense to me. The pot calling the kettle black.

BITE ME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

bootlace15 out

[davblay]

Only in America can a man's Fighting title be taken away, be branded a draft dodger, and then return after changing his name and regain the title, then get the Freedom Medal! Man did I missed the boat when I served in the NAM? Damn. I knew I should have protested that damn war and got something more out of it than what I did! Here I thought I was right all of these years---hummmmm---maybe "BIRDS OF A FEATHER FLOCK TOGETHER" after all!

PLease some one explain this to me. I must be confused! Maybe he will give Hanoi Jane the one next????? Why not? To think that Bob Hope got one of those, it sure makes it look a lot less desirable now, don't it?

I'm outta here! :sick:

[10thzodiac]

Incidentally, it was particularly ill-suited, the Medal of Freedom, which was created in 1945 to recognize "notable service" in World War II.

Hey, George, got a Medal of Freedom for Cindy Sheehan ?

[ggyoung]

ali,jane, cindy they all can s-------. they all should be deported to someplace lower that hell.

[10thzodiac]

ali,jane, cindy they all can s-------. they all should be deported to someplace lower that hell.

What about W :D

[bbearmills]

Hey, 10Z, I think it telling that you, sort of like a cousin of mine, limit your thinking when it comes to trying to sound/read philosophical. You ask, "which is better, a dead hero or a live coward?" Why use only those options? How about adding, "a live hero", since many, many times more of those are serving, and have served their country and fellow humans?
To use only your given options sounds smart to those with limited intellects but, to others it sounds simplistic; there are more, and better options, dude. I'm a Police Officer, and I've heard that question before asked to me. Then, as now, I say, "I reject your premise that those are the only options". The late-coming CO, who didn't figure out he didn't like war only after enlisting and taking advantage of all the training and prestige of being a Marine, could've served honorably, even in a non-combat capacity, then separated. As is, he is a live coward, with no honor. Honestly, I think I'd rather be a dead hero than that. If one believes in God, then one would not have such a hard time with that thought.

[bigdog43701]

a dead hero-at least he fought

[10thzodiac]

Hey, 10Z, I think it telling that you, sort of like a cousin of mine, limit your thinking when it comes to trying to sound/read philosophical. You ask, "which is better, a dead hero or a live coward?" 1) Why use only those options? How about adding, "a live hero", since many, many times more of those are serving, and have served their country and fellow humans?
To use only your given options sounds smart to those with limited intellects but, to others it sounds simplistic; there are more, and better options, dude. I'm a Police Officer, and I've heard that question before asked to me. Then, as now, I say, "I reject your premise that those are the only options". The late-coming CO, who didn't figure out he didn't like war only after enlisting and taking advantage of all the training and prestige of being a Marine, could've served honorably, even in a non-combat capacity, then separated. As is, he is a live coward, with no honor. 2) Honestly, I think I'd rather be a dead hero than that. If one believes in God, then one would not have such a hard time with that thought.

1) You're right, there is always the Texas Air National Guard (Air Canada) option to be a live hero :D

2) Let's not forget about 72 Virgins as an option http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/mesg/tsmileys2/07.gif , Oooops ! wrong God :D

Did your cousin ever tell you, "Believing makes itself" ?

Peace

10thz

[bootlace15]

bbearmills,what do you want a pat on the back?ok your my live hero!!!!!!!
bite me..........

bootlace15 out

Heres your freedom medal

[davblay]

1) You're right, there is always the Texas Air National Guard (Air Canada) option to be a live hero :D

2) Let's not forget about 72 Virgins as an option http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/mesg/tsmileys2/07.gif , Oooops ! wrong God :D

Did your cousin ever tell you, "Believing makes itself" ?

Peace

10thz

Yep our President served in that outfit!

[10thzodiac]

Boston Globe reporter Walter Robinson did an exhaustive study of Bush's military service, which was published in May 2000. Robinson concluded that during Bush's final 18 months in the Texas Air...

[bootlace15]

come on 10th,it was'nt Harvard Business School,it was None Of Your Business School. I can't beleive you made a mistake........


bootlace15 out

[davblay]

Just thought I'd slide that one in 10th! ;)

[cplwatson2dsrig]

Just Curious

Has anyone ever figured out yet which is better, a dead hero or a live coward

http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/mesg/tsmileys2/06.gif


i did, a live hero better then a dead coward!:iwo:

[10thzodiac]

Remember 99.999 percent people who say it is better to be a dead hero than a live coward are still alive. <br />
<br />
Remembering Bloody Okinawa: At Sugar Loaf Hill, with nearby Horse Shoe and Half Moon...

[cplwatson2dsrig]

[quote=10thzodiac]Remember 99.999 percent people who say it is better to be a dead hero than a live coward are still alive.


well just in case you missed it, imo it is better to have living hero's, and dead cowards. now a days the word hero is as hollow as the term politicians use "i support our troops". the word hero is used mostly by media type and politicians. i have a deep respect for all men and women that has served our country, and all that willingly fought for this country especially during war,
i have the highest regards for veitnam vets and the strife they had to face and bear when they came home. it was wrong then and it is wrong now, people keep on saying did we learn our lessons from veitnam? i guess we didnt, becuase their is no political correctness in war, as you stated war is hell. everyone that disagrees's with this current war can eat $h!t and die. stop trying to force our military to fight politely and allow them to do what they need to do to win the battle and war. wars are fought when countrys can not come to reason, so why should reason be put into battle?
lets get back to smashmouth combat and get it done!

Semper Fi

[eppulord]

I think the corp should let the scumbag out so a real marine dont die because of the ahole................. <br />
:usmc:

[10thzodiac]

[quote=10thzodiac]Remember 99.999 percent people who say it is better to be a dead hero than a live coward are still alive.


well just in case you missed it, imo it is better to have living hero's, and dead cowards. now a days the word hero is as hollow as the term politicians use "i support our troops". the word hero is used mostly by media type and politicians. i have a deep respect for all men and women that has served our country, and all that willingly fought for this country especially during war,
i have the highest regards for veitnam vets and the strife they had to face and bear when they came home. it was wrong then and it is wrong now, people keep on saying did we learn our lessons from veitnam? i guess we didnt, becuase their is no political correctness in war, as you stated war is hell. everyone that disagrees's with this current war can eat $h!t and die. stop trying to force our military to fight politely and allow them to do what they need to do to win the battle and war. wars are fought when countrys can not come to reason, so why should reason be put into battle?
lets get back to smashmouth combat and get it done!

Semper Fi


LET'S BE GOOD SOLDIERS

"But all war is immoral and if you let that bother you, you’re not a good soldier.” --General Curtis E. LeMay

BTW, I was flabbergasted to learn General LeMay was awarded The First Class of The Order of the Rising Sun (http://www.medals.org.uk/japan/japan002.htm). General LeMay was responsible for the deadliest air raids of all time, the Japanese fire raids surpassing Hamburg, Dresden, and Nagasaki, and on the scale of Hiroshima, more than 330,000 killed.


http://www.medals.org.uk/japan/images/japan007.jpg

"I suppose if I had lost the war, I would have been tried as a war criminal." --General Curtis E. LeMay

cplwatson2dsrig, war isn't only hell, it is beyond common sense. But who said common sense is common ?

SF
10thz

[bootlace15]

After rereading the original post,we have all missed the boat on this one except one person,thats the Marine who was claiming the CO status. The Marine went to Iraq even though he claimed CO status,may have been in the rear filling sandbags,and not seeing combat. There is another side to this. What if the enemy raided his post and the Marine got shot at? The question is would he have fired back? No one can answer that unless they were that Marine..So since he claimed the CO status and had light duty,he is still a live hero as he served his country during battle...........

bootlace15 out

everything else is horsesh!t !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[10thzodiac]

"Is a young man bound to serve his country in war? In addition to his legal duty there is perhaps also a moral duty, but it is very obscure. What is called his country is only its government and that government consists merely of professional politicians, a parasitical and anti-social class of men. They never sacrifice themselves for their country. They make all wars, but very few of them ever die in one. If it is the duty of a young man to serve his country under all circumstances then it is equally the duty of an enemy young man to serve his. Thus we come to a moral contradiction and absurdity so obvious that even clergymen and editorial writers sometimes notice it."

—H.L. Mencken, Minority Report

[bootlace15]

My brother 10th. Right on!!!!!!!!!!!! Semper Fi Marine............

bootlace15 out

[10thzodiac]

After rereading the original post,we have all missed the boat on this one except one person,thats the Marine who was claiming the CO status. The Marine went to Iraq even though he claimed CO status,may have been in the rear filling sandbags,and not seeing combat. There is another side to this. What if the enemy raided his post and the Marine got shot at? The question is would he have fired back? No one can answer that unless they were that Marine..So since he claimed the CO status and had light duty,he is still a live hero as he served his country during battle...........

bootlace15 out

everything else is horsesh!t !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Brother, Bootlace15, you are right, everything else is horsesh!t !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

My 74-year-old half brother is a CO from the Korean era. I remember when he was in high school he wanted to join the Air Force like his friends. Mom talked him into going to church with her. Earlier she was a Roman Catholic but because the church did not recognize her subsequent marriage, her being a divorc&#233;e she switches to Lutheran. Then her father was having the Jehovah Witnesses stop by for bible studies and she switched over to them, bringing my brother along. The rest is history.

My half brother was very athletic and a halfback on the 1950 Illinois State Champion Football team, Proviso East H.S. One teammate was Astronaut Eugene Cernan, “The last man on the moon”.<?XML:NAMESPACE PREFIX = O /><O:p></O:p>
<O:p></O:p>
My brother was not the passive type. He liked physical combative sports, and actually enjoyed ruining someone’s day with a quick punch to the larynx.

Well, he studied to be a Jehovah Witness while learning how to be a machinist at a Naval Munitions factory in <?XML:NAMESPACE PREFIX = ST1 /><ST1:place><?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" /><st1:City>Forest Park</st1:City>, <st1:State>Illinois</st1:State></ST1:place> making torpedoes. The job was a vocational class though high school. When baptized as a Jehovah Witness he became an ordained minister, he then resigned his employment making torpedoes.

Later when drafted for <st1:country-region><ST1:place>Korea</ST1:place></st1:country-region>, he refused the draft and I remember the FBI coming to the house handcuffing him (handcuffing a pacifist?). While home awaiting trial my dad (PTSD) had an excuse now to kick the proverbial redhead stepson out.<O:p></O:p>

Because of the concurrent Naval munitions employment while studying the Jehovah Witness (bible class meetings) the Judge found him guilty and sentenced him to two years in Federal Prison, <ST1:place><st1:City>Ashland </st1:City><st1:State>Kentucky</st1:State></ST1:place>. From the stories he told me what happens in Federal Penitentiaries makes my Marine Boot Camp experience seem not so bad. His prison turnkey was a WW II Marine Captain that just loved CO's, so my brother got special treatment, if you know what I mean.

BTW, all our family WW II Vets tried talking him into the army and almost succeeded after they got him plastered. We had a active duty Army cousin who went from Private to Colonel in WW II that would sponsor him as a golden haired boy in the army and he'd never have to be a combatant. When he sobered up, he refused even that.

<O:p></O:p>
Years back, he told me that he could have been a good soldier, but he chose not to kill or be a part of killing because of his religious beliefs.

He is an old man now and was recently admitted into a nursing home with two broken legs. A former football player on a state champion team, low-hurdles track star, professional roller-skating (guard) and ice hockey.

He was not the same after he got out of Federal lock up; in fact, he was dis-fellowshipped by the Jehovah Witness’s. He was a tough guy and although he would not overtly start a fight, he was available though. Being a roller-skating rink guard provided many opportunities for fighting & women. Besides plenty of fights, he met both (2) his well-to-do young wives there.

He told me once at the roller-rink while working as a guard they had a Marine that knocked his girlfriend down instead of taking a fall his-self, he told the Marine not to do that anymore. Well, the Marine got all huffy and wanted to fight, my brother told him, "Hey, my brother (me) was a Marine and a nice guy, how come you are not acting nice?" My brother then suggested taking their quarrel outside onto the open-air veranda (on roller skates). The Marine refused (smart) and said, I will see you in the parking lot afterward. My brother said, "Why wait?" The Marine said, "Because I use "things" when I fight!" My brother is fast on his feet and replied, "Good, as soon as I see you in the parking lot, I'll run you over with my car!

Incidentally, he is still a believing practicing Jehovah Witness and you don't want to get him started talking about Armageddon or the Resurrection http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/mesg/tsmileys2/34.gif

Personally the only religious hang-up I have is, every-time I pray in one hand and sh!t in the other, only one hand gets full :D
<O:p></O:p>

[Sgt Leprechaun]

I take one exception here.

The use of the term 'hero'. Just because one serves in combat, or in a combat zone, does not mean one rates that particular term.

I have issues with the rampant use of the words "hero" "brave" "courage" etc nowadays. They are bandied about like prizes in the crackerjack box. "Everyone's a winner!"

The use of these terms, in this manner, cheapens them in my opinion.

[bbearmills]

Hey 10th,
you seem to delight in making straw-man arguments. Stay with me on this one now, dude: 1)Yes, our President did serve in that unit but, that has nothing to do with my statement, so why did you try to sound "smart" instead of addressing the point?(Oh yeah, that "exhaustive" study you cite tended to omit many relevant facts, such as then Lt. Bush had already earned the reserve credits he needed so that he was allowed{papers had been signed by his commander} to not attend drills and to work on the campaign). Funny how facts get in the way, huh?
2)Again, you use a straw-man argument to get away from addressing the point: What the heck does some illiterate boob with a bomb on his back (the 72 virgin believers) have to do with the U.S. Marines or any U.S. serviceman serving this country with honor? Unless you believe they are equals. And yes, different God.

[poloclub]

Put A Gun In His Hand And Place Him At The Head Of The Squad, And We'll See If He Strongly Objects To Gettin His Rear Shot Off. I Bet He'll Defend Himself Or Get Shot Running In The Wron Direction.

[10thzodiac]

Hey 10th,
you seem to delight in making straw-man arguments.

Let's just say, I find it amusing everybody thinking the same thing, maybe nobody is thinking then http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/mesg/tsmileys2/06.gif

Stay with me on this one now, dude: 1)Yes, our President did serve in that unit but, that has nothing to do with my statement, so why did you try to sound "smart" instead of addressing the point?(Oh yeah, that "exhaustive" study you cite tended to omit many relevant facts, such as then Lt. Bush had already earned the reserve credits he needed so that he was allowed{papers had been signed by his commander} to not attend drills and to work on the campaign). Funny how facts get in the way, huh?

1) Bush was one of a type -- young men like former vice president Dan Quayle who supported the war but sought refuge in National Guard units that were not used in Vietnam. <S style="text-line-through: double">Yes, he</S> served http://www.leatherneck.com/forums/images/icons/icon10.gif

2)Again, you use a straw-man argument to get away from addressing the point: What the heck does some illiterate boob with a bomb on his back (the 72 virgin believers) have to do with the U.S. Marines or any U.S. serviceman serving this country with honor? Unless you believe they are equals. And yes, different God.

2) Is it not the duty of a young man to serve his country under all circumstances then it is not equally the duty of an enemy young man to serve his ?

SF

10thz http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/mesg/tsmileys2/22.gif

[LeftyCharette]

Ski was our NBC rep for DSU3 in Haditha. He refused to even touch a weapon. During our workup we liked to play a game with him called hot potato. A few times whenever we would catch him sitting down someone with an M9 pistol would sneek up behind him, throw the (unloaded) pistol in his lap and yell "Hot Potato". This as*h*le would yell and jump as if we poured boiling water in his lap. I havent seen rogosky since our company came home april 1, 2007

[LeftyCharette]

Our company had been in Iraq for a month and I had already been medevaced stateside before rogosky even stepped foot in country. He went to Iraq without a weapon, and never left the Haditha Dam compound once he got there.