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10thzodiac
11-16-06, 10:05 AM
<CENTER>SOLDIERS OF THE SEA


http://www.angelfire.com/ca/dickg/soldiers.jpg
</CENTER>




<CENTER>http://www.angelfire.com/ca/dickg/oldembtrans.gif</CENTER>
DON'T YOU DARE CALL ME A SOLDIER!!!


Marines' sites and bulletin boards on the Internet are nothing short of amazing regarding what many do not know about Marine Corps history and traditions. There are numerous cases where Marines--some of them even senior enlisted Marines and officers--post and respond to downright erroneous information demonstrating a definite lack of knowledge on various topics of Marine Corps interest.

Perhaps, some independent study would be in order--better start at the top.

One random example, among many I have noticed, are several items lately where Marines are lambasting someone or other on the subject of one's having dared to refer to a Marine, or Marines, using the term "soldier."

With righteous indignation they scream that they are Marines, not soldiers, and they decry those who call them such! And rightfully so, in some cases, where the media or an individual, whatever, is using that term within an inappropriate context.

Of course, they (both the writer and the Marine) are acting out of their own lack of knowlege. The user of the term "soldier" is not aware that he should generally refer to all Marines as "Marines"; and the Marine is very likely ignorant of the fact that the word "soldier" is also correct, in some cases.

Members of our sister-service, for example, the U.S. Army, are soldiers, that is their name, but Marines are not soldiers in that sense at all. I am referring to Marines as soldiers in a much broader, higher sense, as a class of soldier that goes to the root of what a Marine is and does.

Reminds me of an oft-times repeated story of a U.S. Army major visiting the wounded in a WWI French hospital in 1918. As the story goes, the major asked a young soldier if he was indeed an American. "No sir," he replied, "I'm a Marine." (Ref US Marine Corps In World war I 1917-1918, Osprey, by Henry/Pavlovic, 1999) Such it is that Marines have always exemplified the inherent pride in their identity as a member of the MarineCorps.

But, many Marines seem to be unaware of the fact that the Marine Corps itself, as well as individual Marines, has long referred with pride to themselves as soldiers. To be sure, we are, each of us, a United States Marine, that is our TITLE, earned and claimed by us all as the capstone of that which we are. But somewhere within that coveted title lies the soldier referred to in the following examples.

One dictionary defines the word Marine as, an infantry soldier associated with a navy. No doubt there are many references to the Royal Marines as soldiers back through history. But we need not go back that far. Our own U.S. Marine Corps has a long listing of examples supporting the notion of Marines as soldiers.

A U.S. Marine Corps Recruiting Service poster, dated May 1866, announces that it is seeking MEN for its ranks; it then goes on to refer to such recruits as SOLDIERS no less than six times, and not once using the word Marine or Marines! (Ref the book, The Marines, by Simmons/Moskin, Marine Corps Heritage Foundation, 1998)

And there is the USMC Recruiting Poster of more recent vintage, shown at the top of this page. And, in the book, Marine Corps Book of Lists, by Nofi, Combined Publishing, 1997, the following.

"The Marines are both soldiers and sailors, a part of the sea services." (Page 154)\

"Some Marine Wisdom on Soldiering" 'To be a sergeant, you have to show your stuff. I'd rather be an outstanding sergeant than just another officer," -GySgt Dan Daly (Page 159)

"In 1928 the period of the training was reduced to seven weeks, divided into two phases. The first phase, lasting three weeks, included the basic instruction necessary to convert civilians into soldiers, plus an innovation. This was an interview of each recruit by a selection clerk, who recorded the recruit's qualifications of education and experience. In embryo form, this procedure anticipated the specialty classification which was later to become indispensable as the complexity of paperwork increased and the material of war became even more technical and complicated. The four-week second phase was spent on the rifle range.<26>" Ref Marine Corps Historical Reference Series No. 8, A Brief History of MCRD, Parris Island, SC, 1891-1962 http://www.maxwell.af.mil/au/awc/awcgate/usmchist/parris.txt


"Soldiers trained in the ways of the sea," -CMC, BGen Benjamin H. Fuller, c. 1934 (Page 181)

"A Dozen Nicknames For Marines" 2. "The Soldiers of the Sea, a traditional term for Marines dating back at least to the seventeenth century." (Page 180)

"The finest soldier any captain could wish to have," said of Dan Daly by BGen W.P. Upshur (Page 182)

The book, "Soldiers of the Sea: The U.S. Marine Corps," by Col Robert D. Heinl USMC (Ret.), Annapolis, 1962

The play, (and later, two films) "What Price Glory," by Andersen/Shillings, 1926, has numerous references to Marines as soldiers.

"He turned down the gold bars of a second lieutenant. 'I'm a plain soldier,' he said, 'and I want to stay one.'"
-GySgt John Basilone (Ref John Basilone --Italian-American Hero www.cimorelli.com/pie/heroes/basilone.htm (http://www.cimorelli.com/pie/heroes/basilone.htm))

Chapter XX, page 69,The United States Marine Corps in the World War, by Major Edwin N. McClellan, USMC,1920, Historical Branch, HQMC, Wash, DC
"In recent years the Marine Corps has devoted a great deal of time and energy to rifle practice, believing that one of the first requirements of a soldier is to know how to shoot...."

And, finally, the more recent (2001) book,"Chesty The Story of Lieutenant General Lewis B. Puller, USMC," by Jon T. Hoffman, LtCol USMCR, in which he named Chapter 1, "Making a Man and a Soldier" Genesis of a Marine.

And many more references can be found, but suffice to say, for the purpose of my little spiel here, that these few examples should establish that the use of "soldier" was long commonly in use in the Corps.

And so is the use of the term "soldier" valid? Yes, I think all of the above has shown that it is, but please consider this information within the context which I have presented it. At the same time, however, I agree that the use of that term has generally fallen out of use, but not altogether. It may be that its decline began at the end of WW II when the Marine Corps was fighting for it's continued existence when Congress, and the US Army, was seeking to severly cut back the size of the Corps and/or eliminate it altogether.

Marines are also very critical of Marines, and others, who use terms that were in use before their own time, or perhaps terms they never really understood in the first place, like ex-Marine, preferring "former Marine" in its place. In some cases, they even now consider certain terms to have been derogatory in nature, although not the case to begin with. These things come and go; Semper Fidelis was shortened to "Semper Fi" by WW II Marines--and it's meaning even replaced at that time. Many of today's Marines resent some of these terms mainly because they have little knowledge of the finer points of our own history, heritage and traditions, falling back onto whatever they now perceive to have been the truth of their Old Corps. Their present explanations, opinions and beliefs regarding many of these things are invalid. For those with the mind for it, there is much in the way of information on these topics on the Internet, books, etc. It's out there if anybody wishes to take the trouble to research and find it!

The U. S. Marine Corps has a long and glorious history. There is no need to be defensive or "touchy" when occasionally being referred to as a soldier, even when the person speaking is not totally aware of all involved in the fact he is alluding to.

Rather, be yourself informed of what is so and what isn't, through your own research and studies. Nor is it of any benefit to deride those of other services, as is a common practice-- doing so merely reveals your own ignorance, and it belittles our Corps.

As one old recruiting poster states, "Be a Marine!"

SF
10thzodiac

DWG
11-16-06, 10:25 AM
It's all semantics; Jarheads don't want to be confused with dogfaces. Soldier as in "soldiering" is very general and applies to all. It's a trivial pusuit of an argument. I don't want to be placed in the same category as an army enlistee. I will always insist I was a Marine, not a soldier. As your post stated a lot of people don't really know the difference-it's our job to enlighten them.

outlaw3179
11-16-06, 10:35 AM
Im a Marine. I may be in the business of soldiering , and I may posses soldierly attributes , but I'm a Marine.

crate78
11-16-06, 10:45 AM
Twice some dork on a local radio station referred to a Marine as a soldier, and twice I emailed him and tried to straighten him out. He's not into semantics, he's just clueless.

As was said above, I may have been in the business of soldiering, but I'll forever be a Marine.

crate

DWG
11-16-06, 10:53 AM
Twice some dork on a local radio station referred to a Marine as a soldier, and twice I emailed him and tried to straighten him out. He's not into semantics, he's just clueless.
crate
Dork on a local radio show is clueless-that's redundant! :confused:

Camper51
11-16-06, 12:32 PM
Even my father learned early on in my career as a Marine to never, ever call me a soldier, or to refer to me as being in the Army. His being deaf meant he never could serve in the armed forces and he truly never knew of any difference. I patiently explained to him the difference, especially the pride of being a Marine. Now, 38 years later, he never makes the mistake and corrects his friends when they ask if I was ever a "soldier".

Sure there is some soldiering done in the Marine Corps, but we ARE Marines, not soldiers...

greensideout
11-16-06, 04:03 PM
Good post 10th!

As a Marine I learned early on that it makes little difference what someone calls me. It's one of the first lessions learned in boot. I know who and what I am. Why would I even give a sh*t about their referance of me. If they want to really know they can ask. Otherwise, it's like water off a duck's back.

Semper Fi Troopers

jinelson
11-16-06, 04:52 PM
LMAO Well it seems we are a two in one Service also - Both Naval and Military.


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v660/jinelson/165061.jpg

rb1651
11-16-06, 06:22 PM
Im a Marine. I may be in the business of soldiering , and I may posses soldierly attributes , but I'm a Marine.

Bingo!!! Well put, outlaw. :thumbup:

rktect3j
11-16-06, 06:36 PM
"Stand down Marine." Ever hear someone say that to you? I never got the "stand down soldier" in 4 years of the Corps. Probably cuz I am a Marine not some dogface.

jgorosco
11-16-06, 07:06 PM
"He turned down the gold bars of a second lieutenant. 'I'm a plain soldier,' he said, 'and I want to stay one.'"
-GySgt John Basilone (Ref John Basilone --Italian-American Hero
Wasn't this GySgt in the Army before enlisting into the Marine Corps? And as far as the history you have submitted, it is only from a handful of Ol' Salts that stated themselves as soldiers, why back when being a Soldier was glorious, before Marines were actually known Worldwide. I was told going through boot, that I was a Marine not a soldier. So maybe you might want to take your "We are Soldier" stories and "Tell that to the Marines!!".

10thzodiac
11-16-06, 07:17 PM
Honestly, how many of you 17-year-old enlistees knew that the Marines were part of the Navy? I sure did not. Maybe I didn't watch enough John Wayne movies ?

Don't anyone dare tell me that John Kerry was talking about me now http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/mesg/tsmileys2/23.gif


Anchors Away
10thzodiac http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/mesg/tsmileys2/18.gif

greensideout
11-16-06, 07:36 PM
"Stand down Marine." Ever hear someone say that to you? I never got the "stand down soldier" in 4 years of the Corps. Probably cuz I am a Marine not some dogface.


"Dogface"?

I'm not picking a fight with you but this would be a good time to stand down Marine. Consider this---
In Nam in '62 I remember dropping a Special Forces Green Beret into a hot LZ with his RVN Army Rangers that he lead. About a week later I saw a lone figure coming in from the rice paddies to our base. It was the Green Beret. The ARVN that he had with him took heavy causalties and the rest cut out on him. Did he come back to say that he had enought of this sh*t? NO, HE CAME BACK TO TAKE ANOTHER COMPANY OF ARVN RANGERS INTO BATTLE.

"Dogface"? Tell it to the brave soldiers that fought then and fight now.

Semper Fi

10thzodiac
11-16-06, 07:56 PM
I had the privilege being stationed with the Army 173rd Airborne Brigade in <?XML:NAMESPACE PREFIX = ST1 /><ST1:place>Okinawa</ST1:place> for two years. Compared to us Cannon Cockers 12<SUP>th</SUP> Marines, I am very glad the 173rd AB were on our side.

Airborne all the way !
10thzodiac

rktect3j
11-16-06, 08:04 PM
"Dogface"?

I'm not picking a fight with you but this would be a good time to stand down Marine. Consider this---
In Nam in '62 I remember dropping a Special Forces Green Beret into a hot LZ with his RVN Army Rangers that he lead. About a week later I saw a lone figure coming in from the rice paddies to our base. It was the Green Beret. The ARVN that he had with him took heavy causalties and the rest cut out on him. Did he come back to say that he had enought of this sh*t? NO, HE CAME BACK TO TAKE ANOTHER COMPANY OF ARVN RANGERS INTO BATTLE.

"Dogface"? Tell it to the brave soldiers that fought then and fight now.

Semper Fi
I'm not puttin down the Army or the rangers or people who served in Nam so chill. My point is that I am a Jarhead not a dogface. Soldiers are dogfaces and Marines are Jarheads. Simple.

greensideout
11-16-06, 08:09 PM
I'm not puttin down the Army or the rangers or people who served in Nam so chill. My point is that I am a Jarhead not a dogface. Soldiers are dogfaces and Marines are Jarheads. Simple.


I was both. :cool:

FistFu68
11-16-06, 09:46 PM
:usmc: DEPARTMENT OF THE NAVY,THE MEN'S DEPARTMENT~(LOL):usmc:

SuNmAN
11-19-06, 12:57 AM
"Dogface"?

I'm not picking a fight with you but this would be a good time to stand down Marine. Consider this---
In Nam in '62 I remember dropping a Special Forces Green Beret into a hot LZ with his RVN Army Rangers that he lead. About a week later I saw a lone figure coming in from the rice paddies to our base. It was the Green Beret. The ARVN that he had with him took heavy causalties and the rest cut out on him. Did he come back to say that he had enought of this sh*t? NO, HE CAME BACK TO TAKE ANOTHER COMPANY OF ARVN RANGERS INTO BATTLE.

"Dogface"? Tell it to the brave soldiers that fought then and fight now.

Semper Fi

very well said.

OLE SARG
11-19-06, 03:13 PM
rktect3j,
Well put and most would agree soldiers are not being put-down but Army equals soldiers and U. S. Marines Corps equal Jarheads!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

SEMPER FI,

6yrforMar
11-19-06, 04:45 PM
I used to hate when someone called me a soldier,I would quickly correct them.Telling them I am a Marine,the US Army are soldiers. Semper Fi

cedarbird6
11-19-06, 09:42 PM
When I enlisted I could have become an Airman by joining the United States Air Force.
When I enlisted I could have become Seaman by joining the United States Navy.
When I enlisted I could have become a Soldier by joining the United States Army.<o></o>
I did none of the above:<o></o>
BECAUSE<o></o>
I wanted to be a Marine.<o></o>
So When I enlisted I joined the United States Marine Corps.<o></o>
And<o></o>
I became a Marine.<o></o>
<o></o>
There is a difference…. <o></o>
Always Faithful: Often Tested: Brothers Forever:
<o></o>
So when I see other Marines neck leather tighten at being referred to as Soldiers, I understand and agree.<o></o>
Has nothing what so ever to do with lack of knowledge and everything to do with Esprit De Corps.




http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v189/cedarbird6/Military/semperfi05in.gif
<o>
</o>

10thzodiac
11-19-06, 10:38 PM
I joined the Marines and my classmate joined the Coast Guard. Is Vice Commandant of the Coast Guard higher than a Corporal http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/mesg/tsmileys2/06.gif

1998-2000: Vice Admiral James C. Card http://www.dot.gov/affairs/1998/cg0698.htm

greensideout
11-19-06, 11:07 PM
Maybe you should have floated a boat 10th---lol.
My same age cousin joined the Air Force and flew the SR-71 Blackbird and I joined the Corps-----you know the rest of the story---lol.

DWG
11-20-06, 06:30 AM
I joined the Marines and my classmate joined the Coast Guard. Is Vice Commandant of the Coast Guard higher than a Corporal

1998-2000: Vice Admiral James C. Card http://www.dot.gov/affairs/1998/cg0698.htm

Hell no! The only requirement for the Coast Gaurd is that you be over 6 feet tall, that's so you can wade ashore if you boat sinks! I was told that joke by a Coastie.
:banana: :D (P.S. I was always told, by Cpls., that nothing outranked a USMC Cpl! Course they never said that within hearing of a USMC Sgt.)
;)

horselady
11-20-06, 08:47 PM
Honestly, how many of you 17-year-old enlistees knew that the Marines were part of the Navy? I sure did not. Maybe I didn't watch enough John Wayne movies ?

Don't anyone dare tell me that John Kerry was talking about me now http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/mesg/tsmileys2/23.gif


Anchors Away
10thzodiac http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/mesg/tsmileys2/18.gif

Gee,Zodiac, I thought the Marines were still part of the Navy....the BEST part!

But please, guys, cut us poor ignorant civilians some slack. It isn't
the worst thing if someone calls you a soldier rather than a Marine,
what's important is whether or not they see you as one of a very small
class of elite citizens: America's heroes, one and all, to whom we owe
our lives. After all, in the words of Shakespeare, " What's in a name?
That which we call a rose by any other name would smell as sweet."

http://bestsmileys.com/kissing1/13.gif

cedarbird6
11-20-06, 08:49 PM
I joined the Marines and my classmate joined the Coast Guard. Is Vice Commandant of the Coast Guard higher than a Corporal http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/mesg/tsmileys2/06.gif

1998-2000: Vice Admiral James C. Card http://www.dot.gov/affairs/1998/cg0698.htm
Well D W George (http://member.php?u=27388) beat me to it.
His reply is correct…

Marine Jr NCO make life and death decision in less time than it takes the heart to make one complete beat.

PS.
Too bad we don’t live in the 40”s hu?

DWG
11-21-06, 04:04 AM
[quote=horselady]Gee,Zodiac, I thought the Marines were still part of the Navy....the BEST part!

But please, guys, cut us poor ignorant civilians some slack. It isn't
the worst thing if someone calls you a soldier rather than a Marine,
what's important is whether or not they see you as one of a very small
class of elite citizens: America's heroes, one and all, to whom we owe
our lives. After all, in the words of Shakespeare, " What's in a name?
That which we call a rose by any other name would smell as sweet."

/quote]
Sorry Horselady; it's way to late to introduce calm reasoned logic into this argument. Once someone starts making statements like that it just sucks the fun out of calling each other names and bouncing off the walls over serious, world shaking stuff like this. There is no place for that kind of sanity here!!!

:banana: :D :banana:

10thzodiac
11-21-06, 12:47 PM
[quote=horselady]Gee,Zodiac, I thought the Marines were still part of the Navy....the BEST part!

But please, guys, cut us poor ignorant civilians some slack. It isn't
the worst thing if someone calls you a soldier rather than a Marine,
what's important is whether or not they see you as one of a very small
class of elite citizens: America's heroes, one and all, to whom we owe
our lives. After all, in the words of Shakespeare, " What's in a name?
That which we call a rose by any other name would smell as sweet."

/quote]
Sorry Horselady; it's way to late to introduce calm reasoned logic into this argument. Once someone starts making statements like that it just sucks the fun out of calling each other names and bouncing off the walls over serious, world shaking stuff like this. There is no place for that kind of sanity here!!!

:D :banana:



We're all here because we're all not here !
http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/mesg/tsmileys2/30.gif

DWG
11-21-06, 01:56 PM
Do you mean "because we're not all here" Gotta be halfass crazy to be a Jarhead to start with-been proven too many times!

:p

10thzodiac
11-21-06, 07:00 PM
Do you mean "because we're not all here" Gotta be halfass crazy to be a Jarhead to start with-been proven too many times!

:p

I know http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/mesg/tsmileys2/30.gif

horselady
11-22-06, 03:50 PM
Do you mean "because we're not all here" Gotta be halfass crazy to be a Jarhead to start with-been proven too many times!

:p

I'll probably regret this, but isn't the saying "We're all here because
we're not all THERE?"


or am I missing some kind of inside joke?

horselady
11-22-06, 03:55 PM
Sorry Horselady; it's way to late to introduce calm reasoned logic into this argument. Once someone starts making statements like that it just sucks the fun out of calling each other names and bouncing off the walls over serious, world shaking stuff like this. There is no place for that kind of sanity here!!!



Oops! My bad. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v209/timedjumpoff/ATT1562190-1.gif

DWG
11-22-06, 04:17 PM
I'll probably regret this, but isn't the saying "We're all here because
we're not all THERE?"


or am I missing some kind of inside joke?
As long as the meaning conveyed is; we're more than a little demented, as in "not all there" or "not right in the head". That is what I meant, God only knows what 10Z means at any given time!
:confused: :D

10thzodiac
11-22-06, 04:24 PM
I'll probably regret this, but isn't the saying "We're all here because
we're not all THERE?"


or am I missing some kind of inside joke?

We're not all there, not here, which is why we're not all here or therehttp://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/mesg/tsmileys2/17.gif

10thhttp://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/mesg/tsmileys2/27.gif

SgtHopperUSMC
11-22-06, 04:47 PM
I noticed that the soldier calling has not died this week so I thought I'd tell my little story....

The whole time I was in the Marines whenever I came home on leave or whatever, my dad would always introduce me proudly saying I was in the Army. It will be a fond memory. :p

DWG
11-22-06, 06:10 PM
We're not all there, not here, which is why we're not all here or there

10th

Like I said(?):confused: :banana: :!:

10thzodiac
11-22-06, 06:26 PM
I noticed that the soldier calling has not died this week so I thought I'd tell my little story....

The whole time I was in the Marines whenever I came home on leave or whatever, my dad would always introduce me proudly saying I was in the Army. It will be a fond memory. :p

I remember telling both my dad's brother and my mother's brother, both WW II Soldiers that I wanted to join the Marines, they both smiled and said, "that is a good idea".

I couldn't figure out why both of my uncles started to laugh when the Oath of Enlistment officer said afterwords, "Gentlemen, please get into line to board the airplane". Hmmm...whats was so funny about that ? Do they know something I don't and not telling me ?

Memories

SF
10th