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10thzodiac
10-26-06, 11:42 AM
MARINE CORPS BASE CAMP LEJEUNE, N.C.--When a young American enlists in the Marine Corps, he or she undergoes a 13-week test to enhance leadership skills and instill physical and mental discipline. Recruit training is renowned for being physically challenging and exhausting, but a worthy price to be paid when, on graduation day, the recruit is called Marine for the first time.


Those rites of passage usher the fledgling Marine into the family and they become a sibling to every Marine past and present. These ties are reinforced in speech and ritual. As one of his final acts as II Marine Expeditionary Force Commanding General, Lt. Gen. James F. Amos underscored the importance of maintaining kin ties in a policy letter constructed with specific conduct requirements for the II MEF family.

Policy Letter 09-06, “Hazing Policy, Education and Prevention,” released July 27, clearly spells out rigid consequences for leaders who attempt to carry on the distorted and unhealthy leadership practice of hazing, and invokes a “guilt by association,” clause for Marines who witness, hear of or suspect hazing incidents.


With the general’s words hot off the press, the clock is ticking for commands throughout the MEF to detect, prevent and educate all Marines on what Amos calls, “a cancer that must be immediately eliminated from our ranks."

Supporting All-Marine Message 045-03, the policy letter tasks II MEF commanders at all levels, with the education of Marines and sailors to identify and stop hazing in its tracks. It further tasks leaders with taking immediate administrative or disciplinary action, and the completion of hazing education throughout the MEF by Aug. 27. Additional training and climate surveys will be utilized at key points in the operational cycle of each unit.

The Corps has a zero tolerance policy in dealing with hazing. According to the MEF policy letter, commanders are to report all incidents and allegations directly to the CG, inspector general and staff judge advocate using the fastest means available. These initial reports, though rudimentary, will be maintained in a solely dedicated historical database.

Any suspected instance of hazing will be documented by the II MEF Staff Judge Advocate from its infancy in the form of suspicion through the completion of the investigation and any related action taken.

Marine Corps Order 1700.28 defines hazing as one military member treating another with cruel, abusive, humiliating, and/or oppressive behavior, to include physically striking another to inflict pain, piercing another’s skin and verbally berating an individual. The list goes on to include forcing another to do harmful acts, such as drinking excessively, breaking the law or inherently dangerous stunts in the name of initiation or congratulations.

For example, a gunnery sergeant congratulates his newly promoted lance corporal by pounding the spikes on the back of his chevrons through his collar and into his skin. Is this hazing? According to the ALMAR and the MEF policy letter, yes.

A corporal inspects her subordinate’s living spaces to see if they are clean, and after noticing substantial dirt on the window sill, instructs the Marine to clean it. Is that illegal? No, it is not.

The order isn’t suggesting, by any means, that life in the Marine Corps is a rose garden full of easy work and restful nights, as it further states hazing does not include mission or operational activities. This means a Marine may be subject to a number of tough circumstances in the name of training or real-world mission accomplishment.

With a myriad of traditions within the framework of the illustrious Corps, Marines may be at risk to perceive hazing as a menial transgression. Stories of “old Corps” floggings, leaders with swagger sticks tucked under their arms and punishing work details litter the sea stories of elder veterans.

Today’s Marine Corps is more educated, more advanced and stronger than ever, and the seemingly obvious philosophy behind healthy work relationships is a driving force in the United States’ success in the War on Terrorism.

“The weak-minded, predatory and highly misguided Marines and sailors who engage in hazing, either directly or indirectly, or who shirk their responsibility to root it out and stop it at the earliest opportunity, could receive administrative and disciplinary action,” stated Amos.

In surprisingly realistic language, the Marine Corps order on hazing explains, “Marines do not go into harm’s way, make the sacrifices they always have, or give up their precious lives because they have been hazed or initiated into some self-defined, ‘elite’ sub-culture.

That said, Amos takes it a step further:

“Hazing leaves psychological scars on our young Marines and sailors, destroys unit cohesion and absolutely reduces combat readiness and effectiveness,” he said.

Marines of all ranks who feel they have been subjected to, witnessed or conducted hazing should immediately report the incident through their chain of command. Unit Equal Opportunity advisors, chaplains and commanding officers can assist Marines with the process to rectify the situation. The bottom line is no excuses, no exceptions – no hazing.

David Jameson
10-26-06, 12:09 PM
Hey ZODY.Can I call you Zody? GOOD I just got back area-51(you would not like beleave what they do up there) I have questions about your post.Witch one you say? All of them.Are you trying to entertain,educate,**** people off or what?No **** .I really would like to know.Your post seem very negative on all most every subject(then again aaaai'm kind of a smart ass on almost every subject)Bottom line ,your post seem out of the main stream.Thats OK .I don't give a ****,But do you agree? Is there a reason?---respectfuly David J

rktect3j
10-26-06, 12:33 PM
That sucks. People are just trying to turn the Marine Corps into the army. Nothing wrong with a bit of hazing. Makes us feel a bigger part of the unit in the end.

outlaw3179
10-26-06, 12:37 PM
Just trying to stir the pot just like he always does.....cept this time hes doing it in front of poolees.

rktect3j
10-26-06, 12:43 PM
I was in a unit in 1989 on Okinawa. About a week after arriving on the rock I sprained my ankle and was put on light duty for a while. During that time they held their hazing ritual in which I was not allowed to participate in as all new bees to the unit were expected to participate in. I felt pretty bad and knew that I would be able to do it when the next batch of Marines came into the unit. So about two months later we had enough new Marines in the unit to do it again. Of course all my friends I came with 2 months prior got to participate in it from the hazer point while I had to do it from the hazee point. One guy though did not want to do it and they decided that it was his right to not have to. He was told that it was just a ritual and that it would bring him into the fold and make a stronger unit. He still declined. At any rate we went through the ritual which took about 4 hours. The one guy who did not go through it was never really accepted into the unit. Not wholeheartedly. He did his job just fine but you always knew he wasn’t really a part of the unit like the rest of us.

Echo_Four_Bravo
10-26-06, 12:58 PM
Hazing is good, being soft and weak is not. Especially when people start thinking that being forced to do PT because you're stupid is hazing.

Regardless, how can you claim to be an NCO if you didn't "earn" your blood stripe?

10thzodiac
10-26-06, 08:23 PM
Hey ZODY.Can I call you Zody? GOOD I just got back area-51(you would not like beleave what they do up there) I have questions about your post.Witch one you say? All of them.Are you trying to entertain,educate,**** people off or what?No **** .I really would like to know.Your post seem very negative on all most every subject(then again aaaai'm kind of a smart ass on almost every subject)Bottom line ,your post seem out of the main stream.Thats OK .I don't give a ****,But do you agree? Is there a reason?---respectfuly David J

You see, I always drink upstream from the herd http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/mesg/tsmileys2/27.gif

Zody

Echo_Four_Bravo
10-26-06, 11:40 PM
That's silly. Getting punched in the face doesn't make you a better Marine.


I disagree. At times, that is exactly what someone needs to become a better Marine.

bootlace15
10-27-06, 07:24 AM
sounds like a frat party to me,or may be the rules for the ACLU on interrigation. I don't know what this baby is talking about. I never saw anything like that when I went to boot camp.

bootlace15 out

jryanjack
10-27-06, 07:28 AM
I can't speak for today as I went through boot camp 20 years ago, however, I never saw any DI abuse any recruit - or at least not what I would define as abuse. Were we made to PT in the pit for hours if we f'ed up - yes, were we made to do any number of strange physical exercises if we f'ed up, yes. And I think that it did make us stronger and better Marines.

In the fleet, I also never saw any abuse - and yes we pinned chevrons and blood stripes, we played mind games with newbees, and any number of other petty things, were they hazing - no, I prefer to think of it as tradition and bonding - hell, I wanted my blood stripes pinned on - it showed me that I was accepted as not just an e-4, but a Cpl of Marines. Bruises heal, and a bond lasts forever. It was NOT done to inflect pain on me for pains sake, I was even instructed ahead of time how to stand so as to not get seriously hurt (i.e. not to hurt me knees). All this policy is doing is bowing to the mothers of America and weakening the Corps.

Echo5November
10-27-06, 08:08 AM
Hazing is a very touchy and not well defined issue in the Marine Corps. When you join and go to bootcamp, you don't expect to walk into it and do a few push ups, say "yes sir" a few times and come out a Marine. Sure drill instructors are not supposed to put their hands on recruits. But honestly, how many Marines in here can actually say they never once were pushed, shoved, kicked, or punched by a drill instructor? These are the men who are responsible with training WAR FIGHTERS, not poster boys for recruiting purposes. Marine Corps bootcamp is a right of passage, and what doesn't kill you makes you stronger. Plus years down the road, you forget about the pain, and all that is left is funny stories and ever lasting bonds.
In the fleet, I believe that physical punishment is sometimes necessary. Corporal punishment on the other hand, is not. I am a grown man, and I don't care who or what your rank is. If you put your hands on me, I'm going to tear the teeth out of your filthy face. But if I f**k up and a ssgt or gunny tells me "drop and give me 100". Putting the newbies through a "hazing" session of PT builds unit cohesion. It strengthens instant and willing obedience to orders within as well. No one ever died from drowning in their own sweat. Getting promoted comes with tradition and rituals that date back farther than how long you have been on this earth. Just like getting the chevrons pounded in your collarbone, or becoming an NCO and getting your bloodstripe. Once again, a right of passage. My legs felt like jello for two days after I picked up Cpl. But I wouldn't have traded it for the world. Its a great feeling to become a leader of Marines. I don't think any of these traditions should be done away with. They might have to go behind closed doors and locked lips. But 20 years from now, you poolees or young Marines when you tell your sea stories with other Marines and you get asked "Did you ever get hazed?", or "Remember when you got your bloodstripe?", and your only reply is "Uh...no, that never happened to me." You're gonna feel cheated and that you never experience true Marine Corps brotherhood traditions.

Camper51
10-27-06, 09:57 AM
I do not have problems with the "pinning on of stripes" EXCEPT when it involves the slamming of the metal chevrons into your collar. Piercing the skin with a dirty object like that can lead to serious infections and other problems, and I never allowed it to happen to my Marines while I was in. The pinning on of stripes using a fist (or sometimes elbow) to the shoulder was fine and it carried on the tradition without undue risk to the newly promoted Marine. As to blood striping, I got mine and I gave some, however we always made sure not to screw up a Marine's knees (we bloodstriped both the men and women).

Is it hazing, not in my mind, but then I have been out for almost 30 years now.

Did I see hazing, of course I did but I went through boot camp almost 40 years ago and although drill instructors were not allowed to touch recruits it happened. I watched one recruit beaten with a rubber hose then removed by an ambulance crew in a straight jacket. He was in a different platoon, and the drill instructor who did it was relieved immediately. I had my share of being thumped or pushed around too, but in each case I truly felt that what I did to deserve it warranted it, so I had no problem with it.

To this day I cannot stand my co workers who go whining and crying to the boss because someone said an unkind word (usually very truthful) or tried to make them do some menial task they thought was beneath them. It was me more often than not who said something because I am still a Marine who speaks his mind and tells others to hold no punches with me. I can't stand to have someone beat around the bush when they have a problem with me or something I did. Just tell me what the problem was, let's fix it and get on with the program. I don't take it wrong if someone tells me I am a jerk, I know I am, but I know that more often than not I was right, too...

jryanjack
10-27-06, 11:33 AM
[QUOTE=Camper51]...slamming of the metal chevrons into your collar... /QUOTE]

In the late 80's they stopped issuing metal chevrons - they were plastic, so when someone tried to slam them into your collar bone the posts broke off! Though you could still buy metal ones at the PX, which most Marines did and they would hand them to the 1stSgt when being promoted - though the tradition had changed (at least for the units I was in) - only the CO and 1stSgt would slam your collar, everyone else did your arm where your chevrons would go on a dress uniform.

10thzodiac
10-27-06, 04:39 PM
Ah, boot camp hazing…forty-six years ago to the month, when I was seventeen and lacking worldly experience.
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The middle ranking DI that received us was a Staff Sergeant and this SOB looked like and is referred to, by me hereafter as Bulldog in this post.
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I remember standing on the yellow footprints ordered to stare at the back of the man’s head in front of me and not to move. After a good while with my peripheral vision, I saw a kid to my left front lollygagging checking the place out, moving his head all around. All of a sudden from our rear, in comes running this Sergeant that looks like a bulldog and slaps him so ****** hard I felt it, knocked this kids ass right into next week.
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The next day after getting about five hours sleep, revelry was an E-5 Sergeant & the Bulldog running through the squad bay yelling as if possessed tipping everyone’s bunk over with them in it they could get to.
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Things were so bad that day, when we were shipping our civvies back home, my high school friend I joined with, told me to look at this kid, as to what he was doing, the kid we befirended on the way to boot camp. He was trying to puncture his eardrum with the shipping tag wire for our parcels. He then told the Bulldog, “I think I punctured my eardrum!” Well, he did not and my high school friend told me, “Let’s stay away from this kid!”
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A day or two later, a busy body Hispanic DI (E-6) ( Greensideout’s DI, no sh*t, for real) from another platoon, caught me with my hands in my pockets early in the morning, when it was a little chilly outside. From my backside, surprising me, he clamped down hard on my hands so that I couldn't’t pull them out of my pocket and shoved me to the front door of the Bulldogs duty hut, where the bulldog was standing in the door. He told my DI, look, your little girl’s hands are cold! The bulldog and I were eyeball to eyeball, he looked to his left and then his right, then BLAMMO, he sucker punched as hard as he ****** could in my gut and I went down with all the wind knocked completely out of me. Then both of those *******s started to yell at me to get to attention.
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Bulldog, later called all of us into an empty quonset hut and ordered the doors closed. He then told everybody to make a circle around him and had small log besides him. Then he asked this pimply faced kid, “What did you tell that officer, why you couldn't’t pick up this log?” This pimply face kid replied, “Because you Judo chopped me in the back of the neck, sir!” Then Bulldog told the pimply face kid to lay face down on the concrete deck and put his foot on his back and stood on him. Then Bulldog had the house mouse pick up the log and do running hi-jinx around them switching the log from shoulder to shoulder. By this time the pimply face kid was crying his eyes out he wanted to go home. Then the DI said, “Is there anyone else in here that cannot take punishment, give me the biggest turd in here!” I, immediately dropped my 6’2” height a couple of inches and he grabbed the guy next to me, whew!!! Bulldog asked him if he could take punishment, he replied yes and Bulldog hauled off and slapped him as hard as he could in the face. Again, Bulldog asked him if he still could take punishment and he said yes and he slapped him just as hard again in the face. Now, that whats makes Marines ! A good slap by a sadist !
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Then when Bulldog was showing us how to make hospital folds for our bunks, a small black kid called him sergeant when asking a question and the black kid got slap of his life, almost got his block knocked off. Semper Fi Sarge, that'll teach him Esprit de Corps !
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I could write a book on hazing and abuse all through the Corps but then OLD SARGE’s blood will start to boil and he would have a conniption, and I would truly miss him here. So if anyone else is interested in the remainder of my book (story) please feel free to contact me.
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The Disclaimer: After boot camp, I was so motivated by our training in boot camp my conduct and proficiency marks at ITR (AIT) looked like I was drummed out of the Corps. It took along time to make PFC. On the multiple guess test at ITR from beans to grenades, I checked them off without even reading the questions, that went over real big, LMAO. I got the graveyard shift on fire watch in the boonies for that one, but I never stood it, to smart for them.
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After a few narrow escapes getting Court Marshaled, a First Sergeant who threatened me, that the first chance he had, he would bust me for requesting MASTwith our Skipper that loved Gomer Pyle's. That Captain got orders to Hawaii for me, but Top had orders cut for me to go to NCO Leadership School, to screw up my Hawaii orders http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/mesg/tsmileys2/17.gif
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While at NCO Leadership School I knocked the hand-to-hand combat black-belt instructor E-5 flat on his ass (back) big time in choking class, the class really liked that onehttp://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/mesg/tsmileys2/18.gif. I was second out-of forty in pugil sticks, never got to cross sticks with first place (long story). I scored third place in my class academically , scoring higher than any SNCO class average. Held the platoon commander post for two weeks instead of three days, long story; having three other Lance Corporals Court Marshaled for insubordination and threats. The DI just loved my style at NCO school, I received a full point to my total grade for outstanding leadership from him. The most Senior Colonel in the Marine Corps, Commandant, Division Schools, Camp Horno, <?XML:NAMESPACE PREFIX = ST1 /><ST1:PLACE><?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" /><st1:PlaceType>Camp</st1:PlaceType> <st1:PlaceName>Pendleton</st1:PlaceName>, recommended that I be promoted to Corporal. Made Corporal two years to the month, not bad in '62. Aced my Sergeants test three times. My last conduct and proficiency marks in the Corps were almost 5X; but of course I had one over on that Skipper, he had me sign HSO signature on his yearly (Guess what, lol). I won't tell, no limitation on how far back they can go to prosecute you on this one. But Again he was a Captain and I was a Corporal, should I've said no and get sent back to Vietnam again, dead men don't tell tales ?
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<O:P< class=inlineimg title="Stick Out Tongue" smilieid="6" alt="" border="0" src="http://www.leatherneck.com/forums/images/smilies/tongue.gif" face="Times New Roman" O<img></O:P<>It was fun, but when my kids asked me, I told them to go to school instead.
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SF
10th </ST1:PLACE>

Echo_Four_Bravo
10-27-06, 04:41 PM
Brass, you don't know a dang thing until you've been there yourself. There is no need for the attitude you are showing in this thread. Your language isn't appropriate, and you need to tone it down a notch. This isn't a place to come to argue and fight, it is to pass on information. If you don't like the information that is being given to you, you have every right to ignore it. But you don't have the right to act like this on this particular forum.