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thedrifter
10-04-06, 08:30 AM
Beretta Backers Beat Down the .45 Revival
by James Dunnigan
October 4, 2006
Discussion Board on this DLS topic

Earlier this year, the U.S. Department of Defense began a search for a new .45 caliber combat pistol. Now that search has been mysteriously called off. The Department of Defense has announced, without any explanation, that is no longer looking for a new combat pistol.

Last January, after two decades of use, the U.S. Department of Defense appeared to be getting rid of its Beretta M9 9mm pistol, and going back to the 11.4mm (.45 caliber) weapon. There have been constant complaints about the lesser (compared to the .45) hitting power of the 9mm, as well as reliability problems with the Beretta. And in the last few years, SOCOM (Special Operations Command) and the marines have officially adopted .45 caliber pistols as "official alternatives" to the M9 Beretta.

Back in January, SOCOM was given the task of finding a design that will be suitable as the JCP (Joint Combat Pistol). Various designs were to be evaluated, but all had to be .45 caliber and have a eight round magazine (at least), and high capacity mags holding up to 15. The new .45 was also to have a rail up top for attachments, and be able to take a silencer. Length was to be no more than 9.65 inches, and width no more than 1.53 inches.

The M1911 .45 caliber pistol that the 9mm Beretta replaced in 1985, was, as its nomenclature implied, an old design. There are several modern designs out there for .45 caliber pistols that are lighter, carry more ammo and are easier to maintain than the pre-World War I M1911 (which is actually about a century old, as a design). The Department of Defense planned to buy 645,000 JCPs. But now, the troops are being told to keep their 9mm Berettas, and all the complaints they have about those weapons.

Ellie

crate78
10-04-06, 01:39 PM
This doesn't make much sense.

I own both a mil.spec. 1911A .45 and a 9mm automatic. Both perform flawlessly, but in a serious firefight there's no way I would ever consider using the 9mm if the .45 was at hand. I might use the 9mm as a backup or hideout, but that's all.

I suspect some lobbyists and politics are involved.

SF
crate

drumcorpssnare
10-04-06, 02:00 PM
I have a friend in law enforcement (retired) who in the course of 32 yrs. had occaision to shoot and kill three criminals. He said the first was an armed robber who he shot with a snub-nosed .38 cal. It took all six rounds to put down the bad guy. Second was a domestic violence/ hostage situation. One shot in the center of the chest with the trusty .45 cal. Dead!:banana: Last one was a criminal whot shot a cop. My friend was the 'back-up.' Shot him three times with the 9mm. Cop shooter died next day.

My dad used to tell me..."Don't ever pull a gun, unless you plan to shoot someone. Don't ever shoot someone, unless you plan to kill them. Dead men tell no tales.":usmc:

USMC-FO
10-04-06, 02:22 PM
... suspect some lobbyists and politics are involved.

That (above) would be a very safe bet.

I carried the .45 in the 60's and use a 9mm now. Like them both but for different reasons. I have thought about the newer .45's but frankly have not spent any real effort in the process.

lucien2
10-04-06, 06:58 PM
Marine Corps rules for a gunfight..."do not engage in a gunfight with a pistol thats caliber does not start with at least a 4." Most SF groups use the .45 ACP cartridge, this is for a distinct reason, POWER. LAPD did a study 10 years after they went to the 9mm FMJ and the average number of shots it took to incapacitate a suspect was 7, and that's an AVERAGE! I would say a Glock 21 is a good .45, but a liitle too large for a small handed shooter, maybe a Glock 36 might be better although it holds less rounds in it's magazine.

greensideout
10-04-06, 10:34 PM
This is kind of like the German Mauser model 98 (1898) that all modern bolt actions are compared to. It is a design that has not yet been improved upon. Most likely never will be.

The same can be said for the 1911 A-1. It's as good as it gets. It can be had in other calibers but the original .45 APC was also as good as it gets.

Caliber wise, bigger is always better. The 9mm has proven itself to be no match for the .45 APC.

DC Jim
10-05-06, 06:42 AM
the military should have kept the M-1911, period!! That weapon was on of the most reliable firearms in the arsenol. You could dig it out of the mud, empty a canteen of water over it to clean it off and it would fire. You could recover it out of a pile of sand, shake it off and it would fire. The concept of newer designs being better doesn't always hold true. The M-2 Browning .50 cal is another example- and how long has it been in service? Nearly as long as the M-1911. The Pentagon needs to rediscover the K.I.S.S. phlosiphy with personal protective firearms.
K=keep
I=it
S=simple
S=STUPID!!!
Jim K.
USMC 82-86

Future-USMC-LT
10-05-06, 04:28 PM
I just bought a USP .45 Tactical Desert Tan edition. Finally got to shoot it last Saturday. I shot 3 round groups to boresight it (sights are adjustable for elevation and windage), then the very next 5 round group I did, I got a 1.25 inch group at 15m, with a brand new, never shot before pistol, and whitebox Winchester range ammo!!!! Most of my groups after that were in the 1.5 to 2.00 inch. Even with a box of Hornady Custom 200GR. +P JHP "Hot" ammo, which kicks a hell of a lot harder than the normal FML ball, I still got a 2" group.

In my opinion, the H&K USP .45 tactical is the perfect replacement for the Berreta. It's incredibly accurate right out of the box, is designed to run dry, without a crapload of lube to attract dust, is lightweight, has adjustable sights, a rail interface to accept laser and light systems, a very large trigger guard to ease use when wearing tactical gloves, has a threaded barrel for silencer attachment (suppressor, whatever they call it now), and a 12 round mag capacity. The mags have a bigass baseplate on them, so if you gave it a lower profile plate, you could probably fit 15 rounds in the mags without the mag sticking out too far.

But if they brough back the 1911, I wouldn't complain either. I have one and I love it, almost near as much as my USP.

Future-USMC-LT
10-05-06, 04:48 PM
http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l150/The-Jarhead/DSCN0257.jpg

http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l150/The-Jarhead/DSCN0256.jpg

Zulu 36
10-05-06, 09:26 PM
In police firearms training we taught academy recruits several things about pistols. First, pistols are in their holsters as last resort "fight stoppers." Second, if you want to start a gunfight, bring a shotgun or a rifle to use instead.

Rules of a Gunfight:

#1 - Bring a gun.
#2 - Bring a bigger gun.
#3 - Invite all your friends with guns.

I could write all month long on ballistics (in)efficiency of handgun rounds, etc. Don't get me started on "one-stop kills" either since those are mostly a factor of shot placement not caliber or "stopping power," "knockdown power," or "delivered energy," or other such sh*t.

Yes, the bigger the caliber the more efficent the handgun round tends to be. Bigger holes equal more bleeding. I saw a man shot multiple times with a .44 Magnum survive, but several people shot once with a .22 or .25 die. It all depends where the bullet(s) get inserted into the human body.

I have a police officer friend who shot five people in seperate shootouts on the street. Once he shot a guy 14 times with a 9mm creating 15 entrance and 15 exit wounds. The guy lived for 18-months afterward. The same friend shot two other dirt bags once each with a .357 Mag and killed them on the spot. Why? Shot placement was one reason. Both .357 shots were to the head, the 9mm shots were mainly body or extremity hits. A fourth kill was seven 9mm shots, the killing shot was in the head. His fifth kill was three rounds of 12-gauge 00-buck (20 of 27 pellets hit torso and head).

In sum, pistols are provided to military people for the same reason police officers carry them, last resort fight stoppers. Yes, our military should be carrying .45 ACP pistols as that seems to be the biggest all around pistol round most folks can handle. Bigger holes equals more bleeding equals faster incapacitation if a central nervous system hit is not made.

FWIW: I'm a SigSauer pistol fan, although I do like the HK USP pistols too.

greensideout
10-05-06, 10:16 PM
Col. Jeff Cooper once wrote something like this---A handgun is not something that you take to a gun fight. It's purpose is to give confidence to those that wear them.

yellowwing
10-06-06, 12:18 AM
Returning fire through a locked al Anbar door seems dicey for a 9mm.

Future-USMC-LT
10-06-06, 08:03 AM
Got the Sig too, a P220 45 ACP. I'd post pics but some of the parts are soaking in carbon cutter right now.

sgtrock1970
10-06-06, 08:47 AM
I liked th old 1911 for several reasons, if you hit someone it would do serious damage, and if you missed with all eight you could throw the damned thing and if you hit'em it was heavy enough to still do serious damage. I still love my .45 ACP.

Zulu 36
10-06-06, 12:29 PM
Got the Sig too, a P220 45 ACP. I'd post pics but some of the parts are soaking in carbon cutter right now.
My old PD was converting to the P220 from the P226 (thanks to the dope man's money) as I was retiring in 1998 . The troops love the gun. We had the P226 for nine years and as department armorer, I replaced only one part on a stock of 60 guns in that time. That was a magazine catch spring and it probably really didn't need replacing, but I felt better safe than sorry (it wasn't my gun to risk a life on).

As I was the department's factory certified armorer for Sig (and other manufacturers), I bought a sonic cleaner since I broke all department pistols down to pins and springs at least bi-annually for inspection and detailed cleaning (I put our guys through a lot of range time). Best gun maintenance investment I ever made. The thing really cleans a gun. Beats soaking in carb cleaner or dry cleaning solvent, which isn't good for your skin. The detergents for the sonic cleaner are pretty benign, the harshest having ammonia in it.

Future-USMC-LT
10-06-06, 04:34 PM
I'll check it out.

Clp BAJA
10-10-06, 09:15 AM
Future-USMC-LT
Aww you bastard...that USP is a nice setup!!! I have the compact model, I wish I would've got the full size model. I bought a Kimber Custom II and added the SureFire x200. My wife has the Sig P220 and loves it.

Future-USMC-LT
10-10-06, 10:20 AM
I want to get the new Tactical .45 Compact to carry once I get my concealed carry license. For now I'm trying to figure out how to get a silencer for the big one.