Iraq Peace Plan Alert

[10thzodiac]

Acts of terrorism around the world have increased by over 100% since our invasion of Iraq. No increase in troops can solve the underlying problems that have caused this situation, but Senator Biden's...

[outlaw3179]

1. You say maintain....How would this happen without any military presence there?

2.Do you think this would stop Syria, Iran and all the other terrorist countries in the middle east from sending over fundamentalists to achieve their goal of a completly muslim state with absolutely no ties to the west?

This plan looks very good on paper. Do you think it will work?

[10thzodiac]

1. You say maintain....How would this happen without any military presence there?

2.Do you think this would stop Syria, Iran and all the other terrorist countries in the middle east from sending over fundamentalists to achieve their goal of a completly muslim state with absolutely no ties to the west?

This plan looks very good on paper. Do you think it will work?

Tribes deal in absolutes. Their standards of honor cannot be compromised. Crush the tribe in one century, it will rise again a thousand years from now. We're seeing this now in a Middle East where the Crusades happened yesterday. When the tribe negotiates, it is always a sham -- a stalling tactic meant to mitigate temporary weakness. Do we believe Iran is really "coming to the table"? As soon as the tribe regains power, it will abrogate every treaty and every pact.
The tribe has no honor except within its own sphere, deriving justice for its own people. Its code is Us versus Them. The outsider is a gentile, an infidel, a devil.
These are just a few of the characteristics of the tribal mind. Now: what to do about this?
You can't make deals with a tribal foe; they won't be honored. You can't buy them; they'll take your money and despise you. The tribe can't be reasoned with. Its mind is not rational, it's instinctive. The tribe is not modern but primitive. The tribe thinks from the stem of its brain, not the cortex. Its code is of warrior pride, not of Enlightenment reason.
To deal successfully with the tribe, a negotiator of the West must first grant it its pride and honor. The tribe's males must be addressed as warriors; its women must be treated with respect. The tribe must be left to its own land, to govern as it deems best.
If you want to get out of a tribal war, you must find a scenario by which the tribe can declare itself victorious. The tribal mind is canny; it knows when it's whipped. But its warrior pride is so fierce, it cannot admit this. The tribe has to be allowed its face.
It took Alexander three years, but he finally got a handle on the tribal mind. (Perhaps because so many of his own Macedonians were basically tribal.) Alexander produced peace by marrying the daughter of his most powerful enemy, the princess Roxane. The tribe understands such an act. This is respect. This is honor.
Alexander made the tribesmen his equals. He acknowledged their warrior honor. When he and his army marched out to their next conquest, Alexander took the bravest of his former enemies with him as his companions. They rode at his side in stations of honor; they dined at his shoulder in the royal pavilion. (Of course he also beat the living hell out of the Afghans for three years prior, and when he took off, he left a fifth of his army to garrison the place.)
In the end, unless we're ready to treat them the way we did Geronimo, the tribe is unbeatable. They're just too crazy. They're not like us. Tolerance and open-mindedness are not virtues to them; they're signs of weakness. The tribe is too rigid to bend, and it can't be negotiated with.
Perhaps in the end, our leaders, like Alexander, will figure some way to bring the tribal foe around. More likely in my opinion, they'll arrive at the same conclusion as did Lord Roberts, the legendary British general. Lord Roberts fought (and defeated militarily) tribesmen in two bloody wars in Afghanistan in the 19th century. His conclusion: Get out. Roberts' axiom was that the farther away British forces remained from the tribesmen, the more likely the tribesmen were to feel warmly toward them; the closer he got, the more they hated him and the more stubbornly and implacably they fought against him

[outlaw3179]

Ok Zodiac IM not trying to bust your balls but you havent answered any of my questions. All you did was talk about long ago events and crap that doesnt have anything to do with the world you and I are living in right now. Maybe its time to stop living in fantasyville and and actually find a plan that works, accept it and follow through. In my opinion the same reason why every pundit , and every "expert" has all the answers is because all of their answers are shrouded in smoke and mirrors and when you really look at them ...they never say Sh*t.

[Osotogary]

Hate to be Mr. Doomsday but when has hypothetical ever worked in that region? I'd love to see peace and the absence of American Forces in that area. I just don't know. Is Koffi Annon going to be part of this International Conference on nonaggression (hope not)? I'm with the Outlaw. It sure does sound good on paper but too many untruths have been spewed, too many trusts broken and it all may be related to culture. Who can you believe?
10th brings up a good point. It is a land of tribes..it always has been and always will be.
Sure wouldn't mind bringing the troops home.

[10thzodiac]

Ok Zodiac IM not trying to bust your balls but you havent answered any of my questions. All you did was talk about long ago events and crap that doesnt have anything to do with the world you and I are living in right now. Maybe its time to stop living in fantasyville and and actually find a plan that works, accept it and follow through. In my opinion the same reason why every pundit , and every "expert" has all the answers is because all of their answers are shrouded in smoke and mirrors and when you really look at them ...they never say Sh*t.

The easy answer is in my signature below, the hard answer is to advocate for more power and clout to the McCains and the Murthas of the land to start guiding us out of this moral quagmire and failed military gambit. Elections are close-at-hand. How's that for non-partisanship ?

[outlaw3179]

No dont get me wrong. I want to see all of our forces come home today. IM not some warmonger who prays for war everyday but damn , besides cutting and running whos got a good plan? Please tell me we can come up with a better plan than Kerry and Murtha that does not involve looking like cowards and we were beaten by Islamic fundamentalists.

[10thzodiac]

No dont get me wrong. I want to see all of our forces come home today. IM not some warmonger who prays for war everyday but damn , besides cutting and running whos got a good plan? Please tell me we can come up with a better plan than Kerry and Murtha that does not involve looking like cowards and we were beaten by Islamic fundamentalists.

The easy answer is in my signature below, the hard answer is to advocate for more power and clout to the McCains and the Murthas of the land to start guiding us out of this moral quagmire and failed military gambit. Elections are close-at-hand. How's that for non-partisanship ?

[outlaw3179]

No seriously , the same guy whos been talking nothing but awful things about the military , the same guy who has absulutely no idea how the Marines on the ground are doing or feeling, the same guy has over and over repeatedly said things not to improve but to demoralize the men and women over there.....thats your guidance? Seriously ? wow...... ok.

[yellowwing]

The spiel about tribes is good, but I think you wasted some ammo. It has nothing to do with Jumpin' Joe's plan.

The Fundamentalists from Iran and Syria are just old fashioned Lobbyists. They want, on behalf of their sponsor nation, to influence the interpretation of ambiguous points of Biden's or any other plan.

Biden's plan is dependant on too many factors on each point.

1."...common interests..." There will be violence and lobbying to define this.
2. "...fair share..." A business deal negotiated with a gun.
3. "...especially from the oil-rich Gulf states..." Outside interests, including the U.S.A, whose money will be spent will want influence.
4. Well the whole of this point will be more outside lobbying.
5. '...withdraw..." Dependant on all or some of the above goals.

Back to the drawing board Joe!

[narc]

we need to maintain a large force there until syria and iran have been delt with. id rather be strong and wrong than weak and right.

[horselady]

Kill them or be killed. It's the only
language they understand.

[yellowwing]

Bush addresses the U.N. (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060920/ap_on_re_mi_ea/un_general_assembly)
Bush tried to advance his campaign for democracy in the Middle East during his address to the General Assembly on Tuesday, saying extremists were trying to justify their violence by falsely claiming the U.S. is waging war on Islam.
All these pundits advocating kill'em all rhetoric are making his job harder. Support your President!

(LOL just kidding, you know we we do)

[OLE SARG]

mccain & ms murtha couldn't lead a thirsty camel to water - if they are your guiding light, YOU ARE IN TROUBLE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! mccain is kissing the terrorist's asses and ms murtha's throwing our military under the bus, what a ****ing pair!!!!!

SEMPER FI,

[Mike McIntyre]

Zodiac:<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
Looks great on paper but:<o:p></o:p>
Ø How do you keep the Sunni & the Shiites from killing one another?<o:p></o:p>
Ø How do you keep Iran, who still has not forgotten their little war with Saddam, from turning Iraq into a Muslim Theocracy? (& which Religious Sect?) <o:p></o:p>
Ø Who is going to pay to rebuild the infrastructure? If it is the US, we will demand that our interests are considered!<o:p></o:p>
Ø Peace will have to be maintained. If not the US than whom? THE UN? PLEASE!!!! <o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
I would love to see our troops come home and I think separate states may work but I don’t think there is an easy answer.

[10thzodiac]

Zodiac:<?XML:NAMESPACE PREFIX = O /><O:p></O:p>
<O:p></O:p>
Looks great on paper but:<O:p></O:p>
&#216; How do you keep the Sunni & the Shiites from killing one another?<O:p></O:p>
&#216; How do you keep Iran, who still has not forgotten their little war with Saddam, from turning Iraq into a Muslim Theocracy? (& which Religious Sect?) <O:p></O:p>
&#216; Who is going to pay to rebuild the infrastructure? If it is the US, we will demand that our interests are considered!<O:p></O:p>
&#216; Peace will have to be maintained. If not the US than whom? THE UN? PLEASE!!!! <O:p></O:p>
<O:p<u>></O:p
I would love to see our troops come home and I think separate states may work but I don’t think there is an easy answer.

<TABLE height=71 cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width=549 border=0><TBODY><TR><TD vAlign=top width="100%" height=70>There is an easy answer...


It took two years for US deaths to reach 324 in Vietnam. It passed that figure in seven months in Iraq.

The sons of the war's architects, like Donald Rumsfeld and Paul Wolfowitz, will not face combat or risk death in Iraq.

In Vietnam America lost 58,209 dead and 153,303 wounded. It was warned against that war, as it was warned against this one - and often by the military men who did not want their soldiers to risk their lives except in defence of their own country.

The last exit strategy in Vietnam was Vietnamisation, training South Vietnamese soldiers to fight South Vietnamese guerrillas. Now the word is Iraqisation and amounts to the same thing. In Vietnam, the US created a state apparatus that was corrupt and a local army that did not want to fight. Both collapsed when America pulled out. In Iraq, the Bush administration promises a different outcome - despite pursuing the same goals with the same methods

David Shoup, a Medal of Honor winner, who resigned as Commander of the Marine Corps in 1963 over his disagreements with the President about our action in Vietnam.

The leading Marine Corps General in the First Gulf War, Anthony Zinni, started campaigning against a subsequent invasion of Iraq during the Clinton Administration and continues to give speeches critical of our ongoing disaster in that country.











</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

[Mike McIntyre]

Zodiac,<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
Ho Chi Minh originally came to the <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" /><st1:country-region><st1:place>US</st1:place></st1:country-region> for support against a corrupt <st1:place>S. Viet Nam</st1:place>. He wanted a Socialistic Democracy but we turned him down in favor of the French. Once again we favored doing what was popular and not what was right. So he turned to <st1:country-region><st1:place>China</st1:place></st1:country-region> & the <st1:country-region><st1:place>USSR</st1:place></st1:country-region>. (Enter a lot of ya’ll)<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
Back to the issue, do you want another <st1:country-region><st1:place>Cambodia</st1:place></st1:country-region> & <st1:country-region><st1:place>Laos</st1:place></st1:country-region>? That is what <st1:country-region><st1:place>Iran</st1:place></st1:country-region> and <st1:country-region><st1:place>Syria</st1:place></st1:country-region> will become. Imagine Pol Pot and the Khmer Rouge with oil and Nukes? <o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
I know you are on the liberal side but can you stomach another <st1:country-region><st1:place>Rwanda</st1:place></st1:country-region>, <st1:country-region><st1:place>Sudan</st1:place></st1:country-region>, or <st1:country-region><st1:place>Cambodia</st1:place></st1:country-region>?<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
There is NO easy answer!<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
In the mean time support our troupes and vote your heart. But bashing the opposition without solutions is not an answer. I fear IF ya’ll ever figure that out, we conservatives may be sitting on the sidelines this election!

[10thzodiac]

Zodiac,<O:p></O:p>
<O:p></O:p>
Ho Chi Minh originally came to the <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" /><st1:country-region><ST1:place>US</ST1:place></st1:country-region> for support against a corrupt <ST1:place>S. Viet Nam</ST1:place>. He wanted a Socialistic Democracy but we turned him down in favor of the French. Once again we favored doing what was popular and not what was right. So he turned to <st1:country-region><ST1:place>China</ST1:place></st1:country-region> & the <st1:country-region><ST1:place>USSR</ST1:place></st1:country-region>. (Enter a lot of ya’ll)<O:p></O:p>
<O:p></O:p>
Back to the issue, do you want another <st1:country-region><ST1:place>Cambodia</ST1:place></st1:country-region> & <st1:country-region><ST1:place>Laos</ST1:place></st1:country-region>? That is what <st1:country-region><ST1:place>Iran</ST1:place></st1:country-region> and <st1:country-region><ST1:place>Syria</ST1:place></st1:country-region> will become. Imagine Pol Pot and the Khmer Rouge with oil and Nukes? <O:p></O:p>
<O:p></O:p>
I know you are on the liberal side but can you stomach another <st1:country-region><ST1:place>Rwanda</ST1:place></st1:country-region>, <st1:country-region><ST1:place>Sudan</ST1:place></st1:country-region>, or <st1:country-region><ST1:place>Cambodia</ST1:place></st1:country-region>?<O:p></O:p>
<O:p></O:p>
There is NO easy answer!<O:p></O:p>
<O:p></O:p>
In the mean time support our troupes and vote your heart. But bashing the opposition without solutions is not an answer. I fear IF ya’ll ever figure that out, we conservatives may be sitting on the sidelines this election!


John Quincy Adams's



Warning Against the Search for "Monsters to Destroy," 1821
And now, friends and countrymen, if the wise and learned philosophers of the elder world, the first observers of nutation and aberration, the discoverers of maddening ether and invisible planets, the inventors of Congreve rockets and Shrapnel shells, should find their hearts disposed to enquire what has America done for the benefit of mankind? Let our answer be this: America, with the same voice which spoke herself into existence as a nation, proclaimed to mankind the inextinguishable rights of human nature, and the only lawful foundations of government. America, in the assembly of nations, since her admission among them, has invariably, though often fruitlessly, held forth to them the hand of honest friendship, of equal freedom, of generous reciprocity. She has uniformly spoken among them, though often to heedless and often to disdainful ears, the language of equal liberty, of equal justice, and of equal rights. She has, in the lapse of nearly half a century, without a single exception, respected the independence of other nations while asserting and maintaining her own. She has abstained from interference in the concerns of others, even when conflict has been for principles to which she clings, as to the last vital drop that visits the heart. She has seen that probably for centuries to come, all the contests of that Aceldama the European world, will be contests of inveterate power, and emerging right. Wherever the standard of freedom and Independence has been or shall be unfurled, there will her heart, her benedictions and her prayers be. But she goes not abroad, in search of monsters to destroy. She is the well-wisher to the freedom and independence of all. She is the champion and vindicator only of her own. She will commend the general cause by the countenance of her voice, and the benignant sympathy of her example. She well knows that by once enlisting under other banners than her own, were they even the banners of foreign independence, she would involve herself beyond the power of extrication, in all the wars of interest and intrigue, of individual avarice, envy, and ambition, which assume the colors and usurp the standard of freedom. The fundamental maxims of her policy would insensibly change from liberty to force.... She might become the dictatress of the world. She would be no longer the ruler of her own spirit....

[yellowwing]

This isn't the 17th century anymore. But even then armies were maintained and fleets were built to project power and to extend and protect interests. That's just the way it is all across the globe.

I don't think its coincidence that the the more a people can move around the more prosperous they are.

When you go abroad you get involved with other peoples. You trade with them an learn from them. Often friends and allies are made. When a friend is attacked you go to their aid. And you hope they will do the same for you.

There are still Monsters to Destroy. Injustice Anywhere is a Threat to Justice Everywhere.

[Mike McIntyre]

=yellowwing] Injustice Anywhere is a Threat to Justice Everywhere.[/SIZE]

I hate war but I hate injustice even more.

My biggest gripe about WMDs and going to war is that it is a weak justification.

The real issues were the atrocities committed by the Afghan & Iraqi regimes. And yes, <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" /><st1:country-region><st1:place>Iran</st1:place></st1:country-region> could be next.
<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p> </o:p>
Zodiac, we did not go to them. They came to us. Remember 9/11? Ask an Israeli!!!!
<o:p> </o:p>

[Mike McIntyre]

And Zodiac, we love ya for serving. You are a Marine. You seem to be articulate. But can we read YOUR opinions and ideas? (Those Cut & Pastes get long)
<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>
I think your plan on having stability in <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" /><st1:country-region><st1:place>Iraq</st1:place></st1:country-region> is great BUT how do you hold off civil war, anarchy, and infiltrators?

[GunnyL]

Joseph Biden? One of the biggest F*****g jokes in the Senate! He wouldn't know a plan if it bit him on the ***.

[10thzodiac]

And Zodiac, we love ya for serving. You are a Marine. You seem to be articulate. But can we read YOUR opinions and ideas? (Those Cut & Pastes get long)
<O:p></O:p>
I think your plan on having stability in <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" /><st1:country-region><ST1:place>Iraq</ST1:place></st1:country-region> is great BUT how do you hold off civil war, anarchy, and infiltrators?

My opinion matters not, what matters is the poor bastards that are dying and being maimed for our foreign investors interests. Is it right, is it worth it...I say no, we should mind our own business and begin defending our shores and the Bill of Rights and not our foreign investors interests.

If we were competently defending our shores 9/11 would of never of happened...

Gotta go now, busy day family matters...

[Mike McIntyre]

Plans are great but there is no follow through. That’s my point. So we do all these things that look good, pull out, and then what?<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
Sit back and watch a fledgling government implode! Can you say Dictator?

[Mike McIntyre]

Zodiac:<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
As I stated before, “They attacked us”. They attacked <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" /><st1:country-region><st1:place>Israel</st1:place></st1:country-region>. They attacked <st1:country-region><st1:place>Spain</st1:place></st1:country-region>. They attacked school children in <st1:country-region><st1:place>Chechnya</st1:place></st1:country-region>. They are calling for the death of the Pope.<o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
They are not going away as we sit here and play by the rules. You fail to realize that, “They have NO rules!”

[FistFu68]

:usmc: JOINING THE CORPS;ISN'T LIKE JOINGING THE PEACE CORPS!THEY WEREN'T DRAFTED.FOR THOSE ,WHO FIGHT FOR IT; LIFE HAS A CERTAIN FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW! WHAT A BETTER WAY TOO GO,TO MEET YOU'R MAKER;DYING LIKE A MAN ,WITH YOU'R BOOT'S ON,FIGHTING AND DYING,NOT FOR POLITIC'S;BUT FOR YOU'R FELLOW,MARINE'S! 'NUFF~SAID~10/44'S ~20/45'S~!!!! :usmc:

[greensideout]

Well, back to the fundamentals---

We are not there to save the locals and we are not there to find WMDs, etc, etc, etc.
We are there to secure the oil fields of the middle east, not for the profit of investers but because we need the oil fields to support our fight against the enemies of America and to sustain our economy. It just so happens that the enemy was born and raised there. We would have moved in on anyone who made that region unstable but they own the sand so how do you tell them how to run their land without a TOTAL change of business inforced in this case, by war?

When can we leave? A tuff question because the oil fields are surrounded with a religion that is hell bent on forcing the world to join them or die. This of course, makes it difficult to reach some common ground with them so a date would be hard to set.

Do I think that we will ever leave? Not in our life time unless there is an event of great magnitude as to rock the entire world in a social, economic or catastrophic way and that's just what the enemy wants.

[10thzodiac]

"The dangerous patriot...drifts into chauvinism and exhibits blind enthusiasm for military actions."
~Colonel James A. Donovan, United States Marine Corps

[greensideout]

"The dangerous patriot...drifts into chauvinism and exhibits blind enthusiasm for military actions."
~Colonel James A. Donovan, United States Marine Corps


Ok?---And your point? Uh, in "your" words.

[10thzodiac]

Ok?---Did you miss post #23? Uh, in "my" words?

[greensideout]

Ok?---Did you miss post #23? Uh, in "my" words?


Well crap! I wasn't keeping count! I will take a look and see if you had something to say---some other time.

[greensideout]

I went looking for the #23 but have yet to figure out the # code. The photo in your profile looks good however, nice fore-in-hand with a dimple.

[10thzodiac]

I went looking for the #23 but have yet to figure out the # code. The photo in your profile looks good however, nice fore-in-hand with a dimple.

This post is No. 33 just go back 9 posts... No. 24.
Look in upper right hand corner for posts Numbers.

Thanks for the (pic) compliment, my wifes girlfriend thinks I look like Kevin Costner (http://www.movieactors.com/superstars/kevincostner.htm) now. Well, everybody is entitled to an opinion...