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Kildars
08-26-06, 04:23 PM
I apologize if this has been posted before, I just can't believe this.

Marching Orders: To Keep Recruits, Boot Camp Gets A Gentle Revamp --- Army Offers More Support, Sleep, Second Helpings; Drill Sergeants' Worries --- `It Would Look So Much Nicer'
By Greg Jaffe
2791 words
15 February 2006
The Wall Street Journal
A1
English
(Copyright (c) 2006, Dow Jones & Company, Inc.)
FORT LEONARD WOOD, Mo. -- New recruits used to be welcomed to boot camp here with the "shark attack." For decades, drill sergeants in wide-brim hats would swarm around the fresh-off-the-bus privates, shouting orders. Some rattled recruits would make mistakes. A few would cry.

Today, the Army is opting for a quieter approach. "I told my drill sergeants to stop the nonsense," says Col. Edward Daly, whose basic-training brigade graduates about 11,000 soldiers a year. Last fall, Col. Daly began meeting with all new recruits shortly after they arrive at boot camp to thank them. "We sincerely appreciate the fact that you swore an oath and got on a bus and did it in a time of war," he recently told an incoming class. "That's a big, big deal." He usually is accompanied by two male and two female soldiers, who can answer questions the recruits may have.

"The idea is to get rid of the anxiety and worry," Col. Daly says.

The new welcome is a window on the big changes sweeping boot camp, the Army's nine-week basic training. For most of its existence, boot camp was a place where drill sergeants would weed out the weak and turn psychologically soft civilians into hardened soldiers. But the Army, fighting through one of its biggest recruiting droughts, now is shifting tactics. Boot camp -- that iconic American experience -- may never be the same.

Once-feared drill sergeants have been ordered to yell less and mentor more. "Before, our drill sergeants' attitude was `you better meet my standard or else.' Now it's `I am going to do all I can to assist you in meeting the Army standard,'" says Command Sgt. Maj. William McDaniel, the senior enlisted soldier here.

New privates are getting more sleep and personal time. Even the way soldiers eat has changed. Drill sergeants long ordered overweight soldiers to stay away from soda and desserts. Today, soldiers at Fort Leonard Wood fill out a survey about their boot-camp experience that asks, among other questions, if they liked the food, whether they were "allowed to eat everything on the menu, including dessert," and whether there was enough for seconds.

Recruits still must meet the same basic standards and pass the same tests for physical fitness and marksmanship to graduate, say Army officials. But more variable criteria that in the past might get a recruit expelled -- such as whether a drill sergeant thinks a recruit has the discipline and moral values to be a soldier -- have been jettisoned. "Now it doesn't matter what the drill sergeant thinks. We work off of the written standard," says Capt. Christopher Meng, who oversees a company of 11 drill sergeants and about 200 recruits at the base.

The new approach is helping the Army graduate more of its recruits. Last month, only 23 recruits failed to make the cut at Fort Leonard Wood's largest basic-training brigade, compared with 183 in January 2004. Army-wide, about 11% of recruits currently flunk out in their first six months of training, down from 18% last May.

Senior Army officials say attrition has fallen because the new techniques are helping more soldiers reach their full potential. "This generation responds to a more positive leadership approach. They want to serve and they want people to show respect for that decision," says Maj. Gen. Randal Castro, the commanding general at Fort Leonard Wood. Smarter training also is preventing injuries, Army doctors say.

Some drill sergeants worry that the "kinder and gentler approach" -- as drill sergeants have dubbed the changes -- is producing softer soldiers. "If the privates can't handle the stress of a drill sergeant yelling at them, how will they handle the stress of bullets flying over their head?" asked Staff Sgt. Clayton Nagel as he watched his recruits file past him in the Fort Leonard Wood dining hall. "War is stressful. I think we overcorrected."

The Army's decision to overhaul basic training came last spring. The service was having a hard time bringing in new recruits. It ultimately missed its 2005 recruiting goals for active-duty troops by 7,000 soldiers, or 8%, and National Guard soldiers by 13,000 or 20%.

Meanwhile, boot-camp attrition was climbing. New soldiers brought in to replace those who were tossed out weren't much better. "We realized that the further you go into the barrel, the lower the quality," says Col. Kevin Shwedo, a senior officer in the Army's Training and Doctrine Command in Virginia.

A team of 20 officers from the Army's training command was formed to figure out how the service could help more soldiers survive the first six months. They consulted sociologists and psychiatrists and even flew in MTV's senior vice president of strategy and planning, in search of fresh ideas for motivating today's youth.

The changes, put in place this fall at all five of the Army's basic-training camps, are apparent the moment recruits step off the bus at Fort Leonard Wood. On a chilly Tuesday in January, about 200 new recruits in white Army sweat suits filed into a big auditorium on the base for one of Col. Daly's welcome-to-the-Army talks. Staff Sgt. Mike Gilmore grabbed a microphone and told the recruits what was going to happen: "The brigade commander is going to talk to you. He is a colonel. He is way up here. You are way down here," Sgt. Gilmore explained.

He then coached the recruits on how to spring to attention when Col. Daly entered the room. "When I say `attention,' you stand up. That's it. You don't say nothing. You do it quietly as possible."

"Attention!" Sgt. Gilmore ordered. The recruits rose slowly and unevenly.

"Could we all just stand up together?" Sgt. Gilmore said, sounding more let down than angry. "It would look so much nicer."

A few minutes later, Col. Daly, a Special Forces soldier who served in Afghanistan and was awarded a Purple Heart after being wounded in the U.S. invasion of Panama, strode into the room. He told the recruits to take a deep breath and a swig from their canteens. "There is no problem that you might have that in last 230 years the Army hasn't already heard," he said.

The recruits then got 40 minutes to fire questions at the four privates accompanying Col. Daly. One recruit asked if any of the privates had failed the Army's physical-fitness test. (Two struggled with it, but eventually passed). Others wanted to know how often they got to talk on the phone (once a week), how long they got for showers (five minutes) and how many hours of sleep they got a night (8 hours). A few asked if they had any regrets about enlisting. All four said no.

After the session, Pvt. Angela Holmquest, one of the privates brought in to answer questions, said she worried that basic training had become too easy. "The drill sergeants tell us we are in the low-stress Army. I'd rather be in the old Army. When we need to lock it up and work together as a team we can. But we should be more disciplined than we are," she said.

In recent months, the Army has told drill sergeants to back off the recruits in the dining halls as well. A few months ago, sergeants would hover over new recruits, rushing them through meals, quizzing them about Army regulations and chastising them for minor infractions like carrying their drinking glass with one hand instead of two.

The dining hall still is far from relaxing. But drill sergeants no longer shout at recruits. They aren't allowed to order overweight privates to skip dessert. At first, some drill sergeants refused to embrace the new directive. "There was a lot of balking on the dessert rule," says Capt. Meng, who oversees 11 drill sergeants. "I have had to say, `Don't even mention it.'"

The Army also has cut the amount of running troops do in boot camp by more than 60% in the past three years. "A lot of these kids have never done P.E. or sports. We were injuring too many by running too much," says Col. Greg Jolissaint, an Army physician with the command that sets baseline standards for boot camp.

Instead of running, privates do more calisthenics and stretching. They also are spending more time learning the basic combat tasks they will need in Iraq or Afghanistan, such as how to spot a roadside bomb. Last month, Sgt. First Class Kevin Staddie, who spent a year in Iraq, was teaching soldiers how to move through a city under enemy fire. Suddenly he called a halt to the exercise. A private who was slithering on his belly lost his only canteen. Sgt. Staddie asked the private if he knew the temperature in Baghdad in August.

"It is 115 degrees," the sergeant said in an even voice. "Will you give me a solemn promise that you'll do a better job securing your canteen? You'll get a whole lot further."

The private nodded and rushed to continue the exercise.

Soldiers also get a few more chances to succeed, say drill sergeants. Not long after she arrived at boot camp, Pvt. Starr Mosley was accused by another soldier of writing letters home when she was supposed to be training. Her drill sergeant ordered the 18-year-old private to crawl on her belly through the barracks and chant: "I will not write letters in the war room."

Pvt. Mosley, who said she wasn't writing letters, refused. The Army offered her a fresh start in a new platoon. There she struggled to meet the service's marksmanship standards, her drill sergeant says. Sgt. Darren Baker, her new drill sergeant, spent hours coaching her. "Without him I would have quit," Pvt. Mosley says. "He was down there in the dirt helping me."

A year ago, a drill sergeant wouldn't have taken as much time working with one struggling soldier. Today it is part of the job. "We're all working more one-on-one with the privates," Sgt. Baker says.

Soldiers with certain medical conditions get more help as well. Recruits with mild asthma now are allowed to carry inhalers with them. Privates who come to the Army with a history of mild depression now can take Paxil or Zoloft. Both changes, pushed through last fall, are "contributing to the lower attrition overall," says Col. Jolissaint, the physician.

Some basic-training facilities also are setting up special units for soldiers who are hurt or out of shape. In August, Col. Daly created a "Warrior Rehab" unit for injured recruits. Before the unit's creation, soldiers hurt during training often would go home to heal. The vast majority never came back.

Soldiers in Warrior Rehab practice marksmanship, take classes on map reading and do low-impact workouts in the base's indoor pool. So far, 170 soldiers have passed through the program. Only 30 have quit basic training.

Last month, about 40 members of the unit gathered in their barracks for a class on how to ambush the enemy with an M-18 Claymore antipersonnel mine. The troops included Pvt. Matthew Brent, a 29-year-old former hotel manager, who enlisted because he "wanted a personal challenge." He came to boot camp overweight at 5-foot-10, 220 pounds and quickly went down with tendinitis in his ankle. In his five months in Warrior Rehab, Pvt. Brent has lost 57 pounds.

Next to him was Pvt. Richard Hodgson, who has been with the rehab unit since it started in August, trying to recover from stress fractures. He was having doubts about his ability to stick it out. "I've just lost my motivation. I was supposed to have graduated in September and I am still stuck here," he said. The sergeants in Warrior Rehab have been working hard to convince him to stay. "I've had a few mother-son type conversations with him," says Staff Sgt. Nicole Waters, one of the drill sergeants. "We talk about his goals in life. This job is a lot more mental than the typical drill sergeant job."

Not all Army commanders have embraced the new approach to basic training. Col. Daly says one of the 14 company commanders he oversees is a "gung-ho combat arms officer, who right now is just killing me."

Recently, one of that commander's recruits brought a round of live ammunition back from the rifle range, which isn't allowed. The bullet was found by a drill sergeant in the barracks common room. As punishment, the commander ordered the entire unit, which numbers 60 soldiers, to don their helmets when eating in the dining facility. He then threatened to send all the privates, who were just two weeks from graduation, back to the beginning of basic training.

Col. Daly bristled when he heard about the threat. "I am not going to keep 60 soldiers back because one guy made a mistake," the colonel says he told the commander.

Instead, Col. Daly ordered the commander to have his drill sergeants do a better job of searching the recruits' pockets for extra ammunition when they leave the range.

"The commander's leadership style has got to change," says Col. Daly, noting that the commander's recruits have gone absent without leave at more than twice the rate of any other unit in the past two months.

Even among those units that have embraced the new approach, there is debate about whether the changes have been too much, too fast. "It's a hot topic," says Capt. Meng, another one of Col. Daly's company commanders.

Like many of his fellow commanders, Capt. Meng spent a year in Iraq, in a tour that ended in 2004. He was second in command of a 100-soldier armor company. In the past six months, the West Point graduate has been in the forefront in reducing attrition, overseeing drill sergeants and recruits.

Last month, a few dozen of Capt. Meng's privates clambered onto olive-green trucks for one of their final boot-camp exercises. The troops, traveling in an Iraq-style convoy, were "hit" by a series of smoke-spewing roadside bombs. Enemy fighters, represented by pop-up targets, sprung from nearby prairie grass. A broad-shouldered drill sergeant ordered a counterattack.

Instead of leaping off the back of the truck, as they would in a typical exercise, or in actual combat, the privates waited about 10 seconds for someone to walk to the back of the truck and place a ladder on its rear bumper. They then climbed down the 5-foot drop, one at a time.

Capt. Meng conceded it wasn't realistic. He said the Army couldn't afford to have privates twist ankles and wrench knees just a few days before their final physical fitness test. "A few months ago attrition was seen as a good thing," he says. "It meant we were sending higher quality troops to the Army."

Now he says he is racking his brain for new ways to motivate more soldiers who are falling short of the Army's standards. He recently petitioned Col. Daly to let his troops have an extra half-hour of sleep on top of the 30 minutes of additional shuteye all recruits were granted last fall. Standard boot camp sleeping hours are now 9 p.m. to 5 a.m. His troops rise at 5:30 a.m.

"It has been great for morale," Capt. Meng says. "A soldier's happiness is directly proportional to the amount of sleep he gets."

The Iraq veteran says his boot-camp troops are in many ways better prepared for combat than their predecessors were. They spend far more time working with their M-16 rifles and more time in the field training on critical combat tasks like defending a base camp from insurgent attacks.

Asked if his soldiers are as disciplined and tough as their predecessors, Capt. Meng pauses. "There are some who feel we are not sending as high a quality soldier to the Army. . . . I am not smart enough to tell you," he says.

In the near term, he has other worries. "The commanding general's No. 1 priority here is to support the war," he says. "In order to do that right now we have to graduate more privates."

Wyoming
08-26-06, 04:29 PM
.

Sadly, but it sounds like the makings of 'cannon fodder' to me.

Marine84
08-26-06, 04:32 PM
God! I'm glad I never went Army!

Kildars
08-26-06, 04:36 PM
Seems like they're going for Quanity over Quality.

Accord
08-26-06, 04:39 PM
http://youtube.com/watch?v=Iv84yS_RaQM

Kildars
08-26-06, 04:45 PM
I can't seem to find the article, but I read in the Marine Corps Times that they're allowing recruits to do pushups on their knees when they get tired and theyre allowing for pads under them when they do situps so they dont bruise their tailbone.

JWG
08-26-06, 07:12 PM
Even though it's not the Corps.. it still scares and even sickens me that they're doing this.


I know I don't want 'pampered' soldiers fighting for America over there, and it worries me for the kids being sent over there with such 'bad' training from the Army.

Jsphsl4204
08-26-06, 07:50 PM
This is surreal...

fraser
08-26-06, 08:53 PM
i heard they even get to play video game systems during bootcamp

Kildars
08-27-06, 01:22 AM
I know a guy who was going to join the army, then when I told him this he switched to the Marine Corps (3 days before he went to meps)

Achped
08-27-06, 08:16 AM
Soldiers with certain medical conditions get more help as well. Recruits with mild asthma now are allowed to carry inhalers with them. Privates who come to the Army with a history of mild depression now can take Paxil or Zoloft. Both changes, pushed through last fall, are "contributing to the lower attrition overall," says Col. Jolissaint, the physician.

Uhh....

DWG
08-27-06, 09:20 AM
Seems like the army had a small problem recently with some privates who didn't realize rape and murder were not allowed. One was seperated from service for psychological problems before the army found out about the crime. This struck me as odd at the time-as in, why hadn't someone noticed this mad dog before-now it is crystal clear. The ambush scenario had me rolling on the floor laughing, until I realized just how unprepared these "little darlings" are going to be. I suppose their airborne will now be issued longer ladders and safety harnesses.

JWG
08-27-06, 09:45 AM
I know a guy who was going to join the army, then when I told him this he switched to the Marine Corps (3 days before he went to meps)

I just hope everyone can hear about it before they get stuck with it.

Nicely done, brother. :thumbup:



Seems like the army had a small problem recently with some privates who didn't realize rape and murder were not allowed. One was seperated from service for psychological problems before the army found out about the crime. This struck me as odd at the time-as in, why hadn't someone noticed this mad dog before-now it is crystal clear. The ambush scenario had me rolling on the floor laughing, until I realized just how unprepared these "little darlings" are going to be. I suppose their airborne will now be issued longer ladders and safety harnesses.

Knowing a soldier who was 82nd Airborne, and talked down about the Marine Corps Infantry, that makes this joke all the more funnier.

Good stuff! :banana:



-Jon :iwo:

Jsphsl4204
08-27-06, 05:34 PM
I'm actually still thinking about joining the army.
Before I found Leatherneck, I was leaning army, but now I'd say the decision is 50/50. Scratch that, 75 Marines/25 army.

This only hurts the odds that I might join the army. The only reason I'd want to join the army would be to attempt to go Special Forces, after a couple of years in the infantry.

I have a difficult decision to make, but I have some time to make it.

JWG
08-27-06, 06:04 PM
I'm actually still thinking about joining the army.
Before I found Leatherneck, I was leaning army, but now I'd say the decision is 50/50. Scratch that, 75 Marines/25 army.

This only hurts the odds that I might join the army. The only reason I'd want to join the army would be to attempt to go Special Forces, after a couple of years in the infantry.

I have a difficult decision to make, but I have some time to make it.


Is it the lack of PROPER training that interests you to the Army.. or the cool new knee pads the Drill Sergeants have now? :bunny:



Maybe the part where they make sure you had SECONDS at the Chow Hall!?!? :sick:


I just can't see, with all this in mind, you'd still want to join the Army 25%. To each is their own, though..


MOTIVATED,

-Jon :iwo:

Jsphsl4204
08-27-06, 07:13 PM
Is it the lack of PROPER training that interests you to the Army.. or the cool new knee pads the Drill Sergeants have now? :bunny:



Maybe the part where they make sure you had SECONDS at the Chow Hall!?!? :sick:


I just can't see, with all this in mind, you'd still want to join the Army 25%. To each is their own, though..


MOTIVATED,

-Jon :iwo:



No.
Special Forces. And Airborne (perhaps Air-Assault) Infantry.

THAT'S what interests me in the army.

Plus, I just adore the lack of proper training.

Echo_Four_Bravo
08-27-06, 08:57 PM
I have known some Rangers and a couple of Special Forces people, and I'm here to tell you that they are some of the finest fighting men I've had the opportunity to meet. No, they aren't Marines. But in all honesty, we don't need everyone to be Marines. There are different missions, and that requires different people and skill sets. I know that I wouldn't want to be on the receiving end of the Army's brute force and huge numbers. And I would trust the Rangers to cover my six anytime.

It is all relative. The noncombat MOS's in the Army aren't nearly as highly trained in infantry type skills as a person with a similiar MOS in the Marine Corps. At the same time, their technical training was much more advanced for people with the MOS that I had in the Marines. Every person considering the military should look into each branch and decide which one is best for them. After all, if the Marine Corps was for everyone it wouldn't be the Marine Corps anymore.

iamcloudlander
08-27-06, 09:17 PM
To all you wannabe's and poolee's that are putting down the Army boot camp training I say to you B*llsh*t. My grandson just completed boot training at Fort Benning Ga in May 2006 and jump training for the 82nd Airborne there also. He is now in Korea training under rigid guidelines to be transferred to Iraq soon as an infantryman. He had to cross train as a sniper and forward fire controller for the artillery. He will be expected to jump in front of the rest of his outfit and clear the area of insurgents then be able to call in artillery fire. Not for one second has his training been comprimised toward this goal. He has been in the Army for less than one year and he is already an E-3 with expectations of making E-4 by Xmas. He just completed 30 days on the line in Korea due to the Rocket firing by North Korea.
I don't think that the Army troops in Iraq are doing such a bad job,they just as the Marines there do, do the best they can and they want to come home to.
I applaud Echo Four Bravo for his honest assessment, for like him while in Vietnam I saw what the Army troops were capable of on Hamburger Hill. And yes I to would appreciate anyone having my back in combat.
I don't actually believe that this story is completely true about Army boot camp.
Now JMG where the hell does a 14 year old kid get the balls to make some of the comments you make. Why don't you finish being a child before you jump into something you know very little about.

hawks
08-28-06, 01:36 AM
I agree with iamcloudlander, half of the people here arent even in the military yet and you put down the Army. Soldiers that are fighting just as tough as Marines are in Iraq and Afghanistan. Basic might be softer for a noncombat mos like you have at Fort Leonardwood or whatever, but my friend graduated from Benning last summer and said it was hard as hell. You think I'm going to tell him different because I saw some report on youtube telling me Basics easier.

Kildars
08-28-06, 01:40 AM
I don't actually believe that this story is completely true about Army boot camp.
Now JMG where the hell does a 14 year old kid get the balls to make some of the comments you make. Why don't you finish being a child before you jump into something you know very little about.

His age doesn't really matter if he's mature enough to not be immature, if that made sense. Age is just a number, also I spoke with some Army Recruiters at MEPS when I went recently they didn't deny the new changes and said some of the same reasons this article said. I actually first heard about this in the Marine Corps Times.

Semper Fi to you SSgt. :flag:

Jordon

Kildars
08-28-06, 01:44 AM
I agree with iamcloudlander, half of the people here arent even in the military yet and you put down the Army. Soldiers that are fighting just as tough as Marines are in Iraq and Afghanistan. Basic might be softer for a noncombat mos like you have at Fort Leonardwood or whatever, but my friend graduated from Benning last summer and said it was hard as hell. You think I'm going to tell him different because I saw some report on youtube telling me Basics easier.

That report on youtube was from Fox News, not user made. Ripped from TV.

Shrike
08-28-06, 04:06 AM
Jsphsl4204 (http://member.php?u=26605)

It's not a big deal. If you will fail Marine Corps boot camp, you will go to army. But I think it's best to try your best to reach the best of what you can ;).

JWG
08-28-06, 05:22 AM
I do appologize, and I have a very high respect for every branch of service.

I was just giving Joseph a hard time, he is my BROTHER, and I will always respect him as such, no matter what he chooses to do.

I am closely related to a Infantryman in the 82nd Airborne, they called them the "the lean alchoholic" or something along those lines. They were the "first in" for Iraq, and he was the Machine Gunner on top the Hummer. Good man, and there are many others like him.

Anyone in the military are a step above the rest, putting their life in risk and to the government, for a better country, so no one else has to see the things they see. GOD BLESS THEM.

Sorry if I offended anyone, I respect the Army, Navy, AIR FORCE, and Marine Corps, but I do respect the Marine Corps more, that I will not deny.

--

Joseph,

Do what's in your heart, Brother. That's what we must follow. But use your brain about it, and I hope whatever you decide to do makes you happy.

I will call you my Brother, no matter what Branch you end up joining.. for we share common goals, and I would have you cover my six, anyday of the week!

MOTO!!!


Motivated,

-Jon :iwo:

WannabeDevildog
08-28-06, 03:10 PM
I'm actually still thinking about joining the army.
Before I found Leatherneck, I was leaning army, but now I'd say the decision is 50/50. Scratch that, 75 Marines/25 army.

This only hurts the odds that I might join the army. The only reason I'd want to join the army would be to attempt to go Special Forces, after a couple of years in the infantry.

I have a difficult decision to make, but I have some time to make it.

If you got the smarts and are physically fit enough, you could go FORCE RECON or SCOUT SNIPER in the MARINES!!!! But thats just my opinion. Do what fits you best.

Accord
08-28-06, 05:08 PM
No.
Special Forces. And Airborne (perhaps Air-Assault) Infantry.

THAT'S what interests me in the army.

Plus, I just adore the lack of proper training.
They're giving away Airborne school to female office clerks who have no use for it as an enlistment bonus to get them to sign up, Airborne is nothing "special" anymore. My ex-girlfriend in ROTC who hasn't even graduated college yet has already gone to Airborne school.

There is no guarantee that you'll be SF, and if you wash out - which more than 90% of people do - guess where you'll be? In a regular army unit.

Recon is just as high speed as SF, but if you fail the indoc you're still a MARINE and you're still Marine Corps Infantry, the tip of the spear.

Throwing out a list of army schools is irrelevant and just shows that you're a badge chaser who wants a big fruit salad, the Eagle, Globe and Anchor trumps all of that and the fact of the matter is you either want to be a Marine, or you don't. It's just that simple.

If you're in a fighting hole, do you want to be there fighting alongside a United States Marine, or a soldier who is possibly on anti-depressant drugs like Zoloft?

Barret
08-28-06, 08:57 PM
In my opinion, there are two reasons for Basic Training/Boot Camp:

1. To basically train a servicemember for service in their certain branch.

2. To teach those servicemembers to function under stress.

I think the Army just wiped out a huge process in making a soldier. What will happen when these guys have bullets wizzing by? I hate to think that these soldiers will have to learn to live under stress while in a combat zone.

WannabeDevildog
08-29-06, 12:15 AM
It's been posted before but the Army doesn't train like the Marines train. Everyone here knows that the Marines only have two recruit depots and the training at both is almost identical, but the Army has at least four depots, and the training varies from base to base. The Army ships you to a basic training site that best accomidates your MOS. For example combat engineers and military police MOS's go to Ft. Leonard Wood, and Infantry MOS's go to Ft. Benning. Some places train longer than others as well. If you signed up for Infantry they usually do MOS training right after basic all at Ft. Benning so it's like one huge training cycle that totals somewhere around 13 or 14 weeks. And I can guarantee, it's not as soft as other training sites because of what they're training for. To go to war. I think the Marines have to train all their recruits with a more "wartime" philosophy because of it's size. There is more of a possiblility that a non-combatant Marine will have to pick up a rifle than a non-combatant soldier simply because of the difference in size.

teddyn
08-29-06, 09:44 AM
I recommend 'Making The Corps', which is a book about boot camp in which the autor discusses the Corps and also offers some balanced comparisons between the Marines and the Army.

I've read a few articles explaining the 'softning' of Army boot camp; one argument was that they are just trying to make boot camp more like the experience of being in the real army, rather then it being a seperate world. I've read that some Marines leave the world of uber-discipline and high standards and enter the fleet, only to be disillusioned by lazy or overweight NCO's and leaders in different galaxies from the standards of the drill instructors. Another thing about army is that they have a great deal more funding; so whereas the yelling in Marine Corps boot camp is like a process of indoctrination into the values of the Corps, Army doesn't have that and they have more money which is used for experience such as being able to practise giving covering fire with live ammo (i'm just repeating stuff i've read, so I may be wrong).
But the biggest justification of the army stuff is that Army infantry school is a lot more like Marine boot camp then its actual basic training is. This makes sense, since the army have fixed MOS' and do not follow the 'all Marines an infantryman' mantra. Hence, a soldier off to become a cook or something doesn't need to go through super tough training. The guys doing the fighting do get intense combat training, however.

Personally, though, I like the Marine system better. The tough process for getting in gives Marines a sense of pride. Self esteem is something valuable and the stringent standards of boot camp gives Marines something to try to hold up to the rest of their lives. Furthermore, a thug stays a thug in the army because of the lower stress environment. They don't get broken down and reshaped, and hence are more likely to carry their civilian attitude into the army then someone who joins the Marines. Hence I think the Marines are a better choice. Though at this stage I'm going to try to get into Annapolis before I decide to enlist.

Echo_Four_Bravo
08-29-06, 10:35 AM
Making of the Corps is a great book. (It helps that it was done at the same time I was in boot camp, just at the other depot and that some of my good friends were in the company that is talked about.) And some great points have been made here. It is important to note that the OSUT at Benning for Army infantry is great training. I know Marines that were Army infantrymen before they enlisted in the Marine Corps, and they believe the training at Benning was on par with Marine Recruit Training, especially in physical training. The boot camps for other jobs are not as intense, simply because of the way the Army works. They're looking at changing some things due to lessons learned in Iraq where truck drivers and other support people found themselves involved in direct combat. That doesn't mean it will be like Marine Boot, or even like Army infantry boot camp, but they are working to solve problems they've found.

rktect3j
08-29-06, 10:49 AM
I think this is just a sign of the times we live in. The American people and our leaders feel that we can smart bomb ourselves to victory so why should we train our people to be hard corps combat forces? Why harden our troops? Why be barbaric, when what is called for is some minimum required air assault done by gentlemen in a civil type manner to produce the least amount of overall damage & unintended victims? This one is going to bite us in the ass at some point in our futures. I can only say that I am glad I have acquired the skills required for survival. Good luck to the rest of you.

Echo_Four_Bravo
08-29-06, 11:34 AM
This one is going to bite us in the ass at some point in our futures.

I agree with that statement totally. But, I don't think it is because we think we have the technology etc. I think it is just a part of the softer America where people's feelings and the civil rights of terrorists are placed ahead of our safety and well being. I could go on a political rant, but I won't. I will just leave it at this: unless we all begin to understand that we're in a real war that needs to be fought like a war and not like a police mission, we're all in trouble.

Mike McIntyre
08-29-06, 12:18 PM
The Air Force is even easier than the Army.
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The Army told my son that they would take him now (permanent hardware) rather than waiting a year. They have also said that if his surgeon has cleared him and the Corps won’t take him, the Army would!

teddyn
08-29-06, 12:49 PM
There was a really funny thing about the lowered army boot camp standards on the daily show a while back... I tried finding it on youtube but it looks like it's not there anymore. One of the funniest lines was about how overweight recruits are no longer required to skip dessert, and Jon Stewart commented that 'now boot camp is easier then fat camp'... rofl...

Here's another one about the lowered enlistment requirements [for the army] which is pretty funny though, and touches on the topic we're discussing:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=27Bv9cDU5kk

Tallboot
08-30-06, 03:34 PM
I dont believe the Army is getting softer, it will be the same

FtMeadeMigo06
09-03-06, 03:26 AM
I want to the deal with the stress cards that the Army has during basic, whats up with that?

Jsphsl4204
09-03-06, 07:07 PM
Jsphsl4204 (http://member.php?u=26605)

It's not a big deal. If you will fail Marine Corps boot camp, you will go to army. But I think it's best to try your best to reach the best of what you can ;).

It's a whole lot different than that, buddy.
I want a GUARANTEED slot at airborne infantry or air assault infantry. As of right now, I'm in good enough physical shape to pass the P.T. standards for airbrone training, air assault training, etc. All I need is the balls to jump.
If I join the Corps, then I might not be guaranteed a certain MOS. A lot of people have the attitute of "hell, this isn't Wal-Mart, you don't choose what you want!", but it's MY life. I don't want to work in logistics, I don't want to work in artillery, I want infantry, furthermore, AIRBORNE or AIR ASSAULT infantry, not just picking a slot and having my recruiter tell me what he got me, be it mechanized, light, etc.

That is NOT to say that I might not join the Marines, so please don't misconstrew my examples.

Jsphsl4204
09-03-06, 07:16 PM
Joseph,

Do what's in your heart, Brother. That's what we must follow. But use your brain about it, and I hope whatever you decide to do makes you happy.

I will call you my Brother, no matter what Branch you end up joining.. for we share common goals, and I would have you cover my six, anyday of the week!

MOTO!!!


Motivated,

-Jon :iwo:

Yeah. I'm just throwing it out there that as much as I love the Marines, I love the army. I would cover your six anytime as well, man. I appreciate that, Jon.

Echo_Four_Bravo
09-03-06, 08:08 PM
I want to the deal with the stress cards that the Army has during basic, whats up with that?


I am quite positive we've talked about this before. Regardless, Stress Cards are just a myth. A myth that has been spread about the Marines as well as the Army.

Jsphsl4204
09-04-06, 09:10 AM
They're giving away Airborne school to female office clerks who have no use for it as an enlistment bonus to get them to sign up, Airborne is nothing "special" anymore. My ex-girlfriend in ROTC who hasn't even graduated college yet has already gone to Airborne school.

There is no guarantee that you'll be SF, and if you wash out - which more than 90% of people do - guess where you'll be? In a regular army unit.

Recon is just as high speed as SF, but if you fail the indoc you're still a MARINE and you're still Marine Corps Infantry, the tip of the spear.

Throwing out a list of army schools is irrelevant and just shows that you're a badge chaser who wants a big fruit salad, the Eagle, Globe and Anchor trumps all of that and the fact of the matter is you either want to be a Marine, or you don't. It's just that simple.

If you're in a fighting hole, do you want to be there fighting alongside a United States Marine, or a soldier who is possibly on anti-depressant drugs like Zoloft?

Alright, I was going to respond to your post intelligently, but since you had to be an ******* about ****, I'll give you the 411 on my own thoughts, which you judged poorly.

For starters, I realize that the honor bestowed upon those who have completed Airborne/Air Assault School is pretty much dead now. The honor behind Airborne and Air Assault Infantry, is NOT. THAT is what I want first and foremost, NOT Special Forces. IF I can cut it in an Airborne or Air Assault 11B Unit, THEN I'll think about ATTEMPTING (notice I never said "I AM going Special Forces, or, "I WILL be Special Forces!") to go Special Forces, and IF I can cut it, then I'm definately happy with my decision to join the Army.

I understand Recon., but I want to fall back on AIRBORNE or AIR ASSAULT Infantry, rather than what the Marines tells me to. I might still join the Marines out of the burning desire to be a Marine, which you don't seem to think I have.

And since when did I throw out a ****ing list of army schools? I listed AIRBORNE and AIR ASSAULT school, which I would actually NEED to have completed successfully to be either AIRBORNE or AIR ASSAULT Infantry. I didn't list the other whatever-odd-number of schools I need for either one of them! So, assuming I'm a badge chaser displays more of your poor judgement. And, no, the Eagle, Globe, and Anchor, does not necessarily override a Ranger Tab or a Special Forces unit insignia; they are both EQUAL. There is no unit, or branch that is above another. Some might be "tougher" some might be "smarter", but they EACH play their role in defending our freedom.

Besides, you can compare the EGA, as given to EVERY Marine, to only U.S. Army school badges, as given per soldier who completes the training!

And your oh-so-stereotypical statementabout EVERY soldier in comparison to EVERY Marine is unnacceptable. Words cannot describe how ****ed off I am right now.

STA0311
09-04-06, 09:28 AM
I am sure that the Corps is next...they have a 2 Star WM in charge of the MALE MCRD. Now all you WM's dont get mad, yes you do have a place in the Corps...but not at ALL MALE MCRD. She needs to be at...

Echo5November
09-04-06, 12:13 PM
And they wonder why they drop like flies in Iraq. Why they do half a good as job as Marines with twice the equpiment as us. Why there is no pride. Why they are not the "first to fight". Why go army??

A - Aint
R - Ready for
M - MARINES
Y - Yet

Ragamuffins with no pride or disicpline. If you're gonna do something, why not do it the hard way & the right way?

teddyn
09-04-06, 10:03 PM
Jsphsl4204 (member.php?u=26605), I still don't understand after reading your post why you're so angry...

Tallboot
09-04-06, 10:06 PM
It's a whole lot different than that, buddy.
I want a GUARANTEED slot at airborne infantry or air assault infantry. As of right now, I'm in good enough physical shape to pass the P.T. standards for airbrone training, air assault training, etc. All I need is the balls to jump.
If I join the Corps, then I might not be guaranteed a certain MOS. A lot of people have the attitute of "hell, this isn't Wal-Mart, you don't choose what you want!", but it's MY life. I don't want to work in logistics, I don't want to work in artillery, I want infantry, furthermore, AIRBORNE or AIR ASSAULT infantry, not just picking a slot and having my recruiter tell me what he got me, be it mechanized, light, etc.

That is NOT to say that I might not join the Marines, so please don't misconstrew my examples.

You arent Garanteed a Rose garden, 100,000$ or a MOS, or anything they say,if its not on your contract you aint getting it.

Tallboot
09-04-06, 10:39 PM
Alright, I was going to respond to your post intelligently, but since you had to be an ******* about ****, I'll give you the 411 on my own thoughts, which you judged poorly.

For starters, I realize that the honor bestowed upon those who have completed Airborne/Air Assault School is pretty much dead now. The honor behind Airborne and Air Assault Infantry, is NOT. THAT is what I want first and foremost, NOT Special Forces. IF I can cut it in an Airborne or Air Assault 11B Unit, THEN I'll think about ATTEMPTING (notice I never said "I AM going Special Forces, or, "I WILL be Special Forces!") to go Special Forces, and IF I can cut it, then I'm definately happy with my decision to join the Army.

I understand Recon., but I want to fall back on AIRBORNE or AIR ASSAULT Infantry, rather than what the Marines tells me to. I might still join the Marines out of the burning desire to be a Marine, which you don't seem to think I have.

And since when did I throw out a ****ing list of army schools? I listed AIRBORNE and AIR ASSAULT school, which I would actually NEED to have completed successfully to be either AIRBORNE or AIR ASSAULT Infantry. I didn't list the other whatever-odd-number of schools I need for either one of them! So, assuming I'm a badge chaser displays more of your poor judgement. And, no, the Eagle, Globe, and Anchor, does not necessarily override a Ranger Tab or a Special Forces unit insignia; they are both EQUAL. There is no unit, or branch that is above another. Some might be "tougher" some might be "smarter", but they EACH play their role in defending our freedom.

Besides, you can compare the EGA, as given to EVERY Marine, to only U.S. Army school badges, as given per soldier who completes the training!

And your oh-so-stereotypical statementabout EVERY soldier in comparison to EVERY Marine is unnacceptable. Words cannot describe how ****ed off I am right now.


Your only 15, just calm down. You talk like you know exactly whats going to happen.
You arent going Special forces, your not going Recon. Stop whining and do some pushups, run, and do crunches because the nearest test you are even close too is a IST.

I beleive your the one to post something about going Army not Marines a while back. When you cant do either, please refrain from cussing to my fellow Poolee's.

Just a Heads up to give another idea of the pain you will take in bootcamp. James Day from my pool Graduates this friday. Total Lose of weight = 45 pounds of pure sweat and blood. Congratulations Marine.

teddyn
09-05-06, 07:56 AM
Well said :)

Jsphsl4204
09-05-06, 07:05 PM
I have a couple of points to touch here;

I'm angry because I got insulted for stating just a few of the schools I would attend to make my MOS a reality. That was disrespectful to me.

I was further angered because of a stereotypical statement made against soldiers, while supporting Marines. While I don't mind support of Marines or Marine Corps training, insulting soldiers is EXTREMELY disrespectful, ESPECIALLY since the level of training the person had that did the insulting was very low, and it was meant to be taken in a more literal sense than say, a joke.

And I AM guaranteed AIRBORNE Infantry if I enlist while I'm in high school VIA the D.E.P. The yearn inside of me makes me want to be a Marine, but the army is appealing for what I want to do out of high school.

Plus, to say that I WILL NOT be Special Forces, please. I'm not saying I AM, don't get me wrong, I NEVER said that. I ASPIRE to make it, and if I don't, hopefully back to Airborne 11B. THAT'S IF I JOIN THE ARMY. I'm having to keep backing my points, so it definately sounds as if I'm leaning army, but I'm not; it's about 50% army, 50% Marines right now. I still don't see why ANY of this had to happen.

I made a vague statement, and I feel like I was attacked (better yet, I KNOW I was attacked. I would have gladly replied in a decent tone without anger at all had not a few ignorant, insultive comment been thrown in, and when I retaliate to THAT statement, two others wonder why I was angry and one of them offers another judgemental statement). Not an ignorant vague statement, either, just a simple, "I'm thinking about joining the army because of such-and-such, and I'd like to ATTEMPT to go Special Forces." When I retaliated, whether it was in a profane manner or not, it was definately merited.

I didn't have the intention of any of this happening. I think we should drop it, because really, both parties are at fault here.

teddyn
09-05-06, 07:28 PM
Dude, lol, you're on a forum called 'Leatherneck'. Of course people are going to be biased towards the USMC. There's always been rivalry between the branches and people leaning towards the Marines will inevitably stick up for the Marines and talk down the other branches. Speak to any member of the armed services and you will notice that :) (lol, you are in fact noticing it in this very forum).

Tallboot
09-05-06, 07:56 PM
I have a couple of points to touch here;

I'm angry because I got insulted for stating just a few of the schools I would attend to make my MOS a reality. That was disrespectful to me.

I was further angered because of a stereotypical statement made against soldiers, while supporting Marines. While I don't mind support of Marines or Marine Corps training, insulting soldiers is EXTREMELY disrespectful, ESPECIALLY since the level of training the person had that did the insulting was very low, and it was meant to be taken in a more literal sense than say, a joke.

And I AM guaranteed AIRBORNE Infantry if I enlist while I'm in high school VIA the D.E.P. The yearn inside of me makes me want to be a Marine, but the army is appealing for what I want to do out of high school.

Plus, to say that I WILL NOT be Special Forces, please. I'm not saying I AM, don't get me wrong, I NEVER said that. I ASPIRE to make it, and if I don't, hopefully back to Airborne 11B. THAT'S IF I JOIN THE ARMY. I'm having to keep backing my points, so it definately sounds as if I'm leaning army, but I'm not; it's about 50% army, 50% Marines right now. I still don't see why ANY of this had to happen.

I made a vague statement, and I feel like I was attacked (better yet, I KNOW I was attacked. I would have gladly replied in a decent tone without anger at all had not a few ignorant, insultive comment been thrown in, and when I retaliate to THAT statement, two others wonder why I was angry and one of them offers another judgemental statement). Not an ignorant vague statement, either, just a simple, "I'm thinking about joining the army because of such-and-such, and I'd like to ATTEMPT to go Special Forces." When I retaliated, whether it was in a profane manner or not, it was definately merited.

I didn't have the intention of any of this happening. I think we should drop it, because really, both parties are at fault here.

Yea Infantry spots are always open, and never full. No way they will deny you that. Army or Marine Corps.

Kildars
09-05-06, 08:13 PM
I have a couple of points to touch here;

I'm angry because I got insulted for stating just a few of the schools I would attend to make my MOS a reality. That was disrespectful to me.

I was further angered because of a stereotypical statement made against soldiers, while supporting Marines. While I don't mind support of Marines or Marine Corps training, insulting soldiers is EXTREMELY disrespectful, ESPECIALLY since the level of training the person had that did the insulting was very low, and it was meant to be taken in a more literal sense than say, a joke.

And I AM guaranteed AIRBORNE Infantry if I enlist while I'm in high school VIA the D.E.P. The yearn inside of me makes me want to be a Marine, but the army is appealing for what I want to do out of high school.

Plus, to say that I WILL NOT be Special Forces, please. I'm not saying I AM, don't get me wrong, I NEVER said that. I ASPIRE to make it, and if I don't, hopefully back to Airborne 11B. THAT'S IF I JOIN THE ARMY. I'm having to keep backing my points, so it definately sounds as if I'm leaning army, but I'm not; it's about 50% army, 50% Marines right now. I still don't see why ANY of this had to happen.

I made a vague statement, and I feel like I was attacked (better yet, I KNOW I was attacked. I would have gladly replied in a decent tone without anger at all had not a few ignorant, insultive comment been thrown in, and when I retaliate to THAT statement, two others wonder why I was angry and one of them offers another judgemental statement). Not an ignorant vague statement, either, just a simple, "I'm thinking about joining the army because of such-and-such, and I'd like to ATTEMPT to go Special Forces." When I retaliated, whether it was in a profane manner or not, it was definately merited.

I didn't have the intention of any of this happening. I think we should drop it, because really, both parties are at fault here.
I have never heard of anyone closing an infanty MOS? I'm pretty sure theyre always open..

Edit: Tallboot beat me to it.

Echo_Four_Bravo
09-05-06, 08:52 PM
Look around the forum, infantry does get closed.

Accord
09-05-06, 09:57 PM
Alright, I was going to respond to your post intelligently, but since you had to be an ******* about ****, I'll give you the 411 on my own thoughts, which you judged poorly.

For starters, I realize that the honor bestowed upon those who have completed Airborne/Air Assault School is pretty much dead now. The honor behind Airborne and Air Assault Infantry, is NOT. THAT is what I want first and foremost, NOT Special Forces. IF I can cut it in an Airborne or Air Assault 11B Unit, THEN I'll think about ATTEMPTING (notice I never said "I AM going Special Forces, or, "I WILL be Special Forces!") to go Special Forces, and IF I can cut it, then I'm definately happy with my decision to join the Army.

I understand Recon., but I want to fall back on AIRBORNE or AIR ASSAULT Infantry, rather than what the Marines tells me to. I might still join the Marines out of the burning desire to be a Marine, which you don't seem to think I have.

And since when did I throw out a ****ing list of army schools? I listed AIRBORNE and AIR ASSAULT school, which I would actually NEED to have completed successfully to be either AIRBORNE or AIR ASSAULT Infantry. I didn't list the other whatever-odd-number of schools I need for either one of them! So, assuming I'm a badge chaser displays more of your poor judgement. And, no, the Eagle, Globe, and Anchor, does not necessarily override a Ranger Tab or a Special Forces unit insignia; they are both EQUAL. There is no unit, or branch that is above another. Some might be "tougher" some might be "smarter", but they EACH play their role in defending our freedom.

Besides, you can compare the EGA, as given to EVERY Marine, to only U.S. Army school badges, as given per soldier who completes the training!

And your oh-so-stereotypical statementabout EVERY soldier in comparison to EVERY Marine is unnacceptable. Words cannot describe how ****ed off I am right now.
You want to talk about disrespectful? Comparing the Eagle, Globe, and Anchor to a f/cking badge you get for completeing a 10 day long cakewalk army school. THAT is disrespectful.

Arguing semantics will get you no where, I did not attack you, however you flew off the handle over nothing at all. If you want people to take you seriously, then grow some thicker skin, learn to take criticism, and DO SOMETHING rather than talking big on the internet.

I have neither the time nor the inclination to argue with you and dispute what you said about point by point, I will simply state that you are wrong in your assumptions, you have a lot to learn, and you need to grow the hell up.

Kildars
09-06-06, 12:29 AM
Look around the forum, infantry does get closed.

The army/Marine Corps would tell someone no to an 0311 position? I did not know that, thank you Marine.

Mike McIntyre
09-06-06, 09:25 AM
Jsphsl4204:
<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>
A small lesson in life, First: You are 15. I know you know all about the world and disrespect but please!
Second: The military, all branches, will put you where they NEED you. If you sign “the Contract” (MFC) than you are the property of Uncle Sam.
My sister was an Army nurse. She had a contract, in WRITING that said that she would NOT go to Nam. Several months after graduating from nursing school you know where she was? Yea, you are smarter than you look. She spent the next 13 months in an EVAC hospital near Da Nang (That was in Nam for you Army types)
Last: If you think this crowd is disrespectful than you need to join the Guard.
I have it on good authority that the nice instructors at San Diego & Parris Island would never disrespect a recruit. They will probably also agree with you that the Army’s Basic training is every bit as good as the Corp’s Boot Camp. Just ask a D.I.

alexpw62
09-06-06, 01:50 PM
Well, it looks like America needs its Marine Corps more than ever now!

In my humble opinion, in light of our new "softer" Army, it will be the Marine Corps' uncompromising standards and fearless warrior tradition that will protect our American way of life in the future. God Bless the United States Marine Corps!

Camper51
09-06-06, 02:31 PM
If anyone thinks that a Marine is gonna back the Army then he/she is very sadly mistaken.

Also if I wish to disrespect the Army, Navy, Coast Guard or Airforce then it is my right to do so after having spent my time in the Marine Corps.

However I happen to respect all members of all the services, even if I choose to cut down, brag over, and belittle the other armed forces. That is my RIGHT as a Marine, just as my son in law has the right to cut down Marines because he is in the Army. (he always loses with me, though)

You who have NOT served have no such bragging rights. You can support whomever you choose and you should.

If you think the Army and it's Airborne and Special forces are so darn great then by all means you have the right to join the Army, but I really would not come in here, a MARINE CORPS site, and propose to Marines that the Army might in some silly way be better than we are. THAT won't ever fly in here...

STA0311
09-06-06, 03:21 PM
Kinda funny that he is boasting about Army Training being easier and is crying about being picked on! BWAHAHAHAHA Go Army....be your Army of one...and keep you weak ass out of OUR CORPS!

Echo5November
09-06-06, 07:21 PM
hahah, thats funny STA0311. The army groupie got owned.

If the Army is so great and equal to the Corps, or even better, then why is it Marines (not the Army) that keeps getting recalled to go to Iraq after they get out of the Corps? What was the number last week...2500 up to 30000??? Within the next few months. Can't remember the last time I heard of an Army recall. Its more like get out and stay gone. Get off our forums. You don't have what it takes to be one of us. Never have, and never will. So, hooaah, lead the way right off this site ranger!!

FooDawg
09-06-06, 11:31 PM
The army/Marine Corps would tell someone no to an 0311 position? I did not know that, thank you Marine.
Actually yeah, it all depends on the Recruiters office, the district, the MEPs center and what they have available to ship. Only reason I actually got an 03XX slot was because I ended up pushing my DEP out a while to the new fiscal year. Now im guaranteed a slot for 03XX as opposed to OPEN enlistment. But remember, EVERYONE joins the Marine Corps with an OPEN enlistment and you pick your MOS and ship date after you sign your initial enlistment agreement and are DEPed in. I learned a lot about this process in the almost 2 years it took to get DEPed in. Haha. And even with an ASVAB score of 99 with all my line scores maxed out, I still had a little bit of trouble getting 03XX, but I managed. I remember starting my enlistment attempts at 22yrs of age, im shipping out probably 3 days before I turn 24. Thats the reality of the selective-ness in the Marine Corps. (Medical history of cancer at 14 years old was the issue I was having just for those that didnt already know.) Im proud to have been so persistent and finally make it after multiple medical appeals.

Echo_Four_Bravo
09-07-06, 12:14 AM
FooDawg, your story is great. You should start a thread and run through it all, just to motivate those that are running into their own problems trying to get through MEPS.

jinelson
09-07-06, 12:33 AM
I agree with Echo Four Bravo I think that your thread would be motivating to those hitting obsticals as well as an inspiration to us all. Never give up - you didnt and won.

Jim

FooDawg
09-07-06, 12:11 PM
Thanks for the compliments guys. Much appreciated coming from the real deal Marines. I think I will start a thread to help motivate some of the poolees. I'll do that later tonight.

outlaw3179
09-10-06, 11:34 AM
Be all you can be...................Sorry thats all you could be.

ZaCalles
09-10-06, 01:09 PM
wow...

vicbx2006
09-10-06, 01:20 PM
This is truly sad. These kids are gonna get wiped out. I've been a martial artist since I was a kid and I was always taught that "you fight how you train". If you're training is a joke, then you won't react properly at the moment of truth and you will die. And that's just for street survival. These kids are going into combat. I can't understand this.

Vic