Murtha Sees New Evidence That War Is Going Badly

[thedrifter]

Murtha Sees New Evidence That War Is Going Badly <br />
Monisha Bansal <br />
Staff Writer <br />
<br />
(CNSNews.com) - Rep. John Murtha (D-Pa.), a vocal critic of the Iraq war, is using the news about a recall of...

[jinelson]

A message from Larry Bailey,
President of Vets for The Truth

Warmest greetings from the organizing committee of Vets for the Truth (VFTT), which was established for the express purpose of assisting in the redeployment of John Murtha from the US House of Representatives. For the record, VFTT rose out of the 2004 campaign by Vietnam Vets for the Truth to inform the American voters of the lies told in 1971 about Vietnam military personnel by John Kerry. We had a great deal of success, especially in conceiving of and implementing Operation Street Corner, a program by means of which everyday citizens can make their political opinions known and point out the lies of John Kerry. VFTT intends to do the same thing in the case of what John Murtha has said about the U.S. Marines.

I’ll update this “column” from time to time as the “Boot Murtha” campaign gets wheels and generates momentum. I just hope I have the ability to keep up, as things are moving faster than I expected!

Thank you for checking in with us; now stay with us! We’re going to help Pennsylvania voters change their political landscape by telling the truth about Lying John Murtha!



Larry Bailey

Let's redeploy John "Mecca" Murtha from the US House Of Representatives!

Jim :thumbup:

[OLE SARG]

Be sure and get ladderwell in on this thread, he is very mis-informed about ms murtha!!!!!!!!!!!!

SEMPER FI,

[fiasco1371]

Col. Stratton, sir, awaiting orders. I'll go back for a third round. Semper.

[Ladderwell]

For anyone who has studied this part of the world since Islam was established in the 650s, and who is aware of the affects of multiple wars and catastrophes in the Islamic world, they know that in...

[Ladderwell]

A message from Larry Bailey,
President of Vets for The Truth

Warmest greetings from the organizing committee of Vets for the Truth (VFTT), which was established for the express purpose of assisting in the redeployment of John Murtha from the US House of Representatives. For the record, VFTT rose out of the 2004 campaign by Vietnam Vets for the Truth to inform the American voters of the lies told in 1971 about Vietnam military personnel by John Kerry. We had a great deal of success, especially in conceiving of and implementing Operation Street Corner, a program by means of which everyday citizens can make their political opinions known and point out the lies of John Kerry. VFTT intends to do the same thing in the case of what John Murtha has said about the U.S. Marines.

I’ll update this “column” from time to time as the “Boot Murtha” campaign gets wheels and generates momentum. I just hope I have the ability to keep up, as things are moving faster than I expected!

Thank you for checking in with us; now stay with us! We’re going to help Pennsylvania voters change their political landscape by telling the truth about Lying John Murtha!



Larry Bailey

Let's redeploy John "Mecca" Murtha from the US House Of Representatives!

Jim :thumbup:

Why not ignore Kerry and Murtha and focus on the real problem, the lies from the current administration that got us into this global mess? You have energy and resources, as well as passion, to work to make the world a better place. Fighting against these two is as bad as the Bush administration invading Iraq for no good reason (no WMDs, Nukes, or Terrorists). Work to get at the root of the problem, and the beginning of the solution. There will be some hard decisions to make, and one of them, based on all of the terrible current realities, may be that voting for the likes of Kerry or Murtha, or from their ranks, will get the country on the road out of the quagmire Bush was warned not to get into.

Respectfully,
Ladderwell
SF

[Ladderwell]

Be sure and get ladderwell in on this thread, he is very mis-informed about ms murtha!!!!!!!!!!!!

SEMPER FI,

Ole Sarge,

Let's keep our eye on the ball. Murtha and Kerry are NOT the problem. The ill-will across the land is a sympton of the problem caused by the lies and falsehoods that got us into this God-awful mess. Ignore those guys, and let's focus on solving the problem. Elections are coming up. Keeping the current administration and the Republican party in power will only exacerbate the problems we have across the globe, and in our own backyard and homes.

We have too much skin in the game to continue to make bad decisions that negatively affect our republic. Time to make the tough ones. We may need to vote for (and you may think) "bums like these," because they are the lesser of two evils.

Ladderwell,
SF

[OLE SARG]

You are right ladderwell, ms murtha and ms kerry are NOT the problem. The problem is people like YOU!!!!!!!!!!!! Oh ye, who feed off what the left is spewing and run with it. You are the perfect example of that.

SEMPER FI,

[thedrifter]

You are right ladderwell, ms murtha and ms kerry are NOT the problem. The problem is people like YOU!!!!!!!!!!!! Oh ye, who feed off what the left is spewing and run with it. You are the perfect example of that.

SEMPER FI,

Amen to that...

Ellie

[eddief]

You are right ladderwell, ms murtha and ms kerry are NOT the problem. The problem is people like YOU!!!!!!!!!!!! Oh ye, who feed off what the left is spewing and run with it. You are the perfect example of that.

SEMPER FI,

As opposed to the claims by the Bush administration neocons that it would be a cakewalk and would be paid for with Iraqi oil.

So who really fell for a bunch of BS?

[CHOPPER7199]

A Few Points Have Been Made. Where Are The Battalions Of Iragi Soldiers That Were Ready To Replace Some Of Our Troops? This Was Said By Rummy Over A Yr. Ago. Just 1 Vital Point At This Time. I Do Not Tend To Agree With Alot, But There Is Alot Of B-s That Has Been Said By Our So Called Leaders. Our Troops Need The Best Of Everything Now, Not Later. Example, Remember About The Body Armour Let Alone The Vehicals. Just An Old Grunts Opinion

[jinelson]

Free Republic
John Murtha: military destroyer
Marine recruiter details Murtha's damage

In America, we rightfully make public examples of the worst behavior in our society. This is true even of our sacred institutions. The recent article by the Associated Press reporting over a hundred women seeking to serve our country were treated in a sexually inappropriate way is just one such disheartening incident. The Armed Forces are spending $1.5 billion on 8,000 recruiters this year.

However, there is other disheartening news coming from a specific recruiter that is telling about Rep. John Murtha (D-PA). Boot Murtha has received anecdotal evidence that Murtha’s words and deeds undermine our military and demoralize our troops. His actions also cause damage to our nation’s recruiting efforts.

The following e-mail message written by a Marine underscores the damage Murtha is doing to the Corp and America's defense capabilities:

I am a Marine on Recruiting duty. John Murtha needs to understand that he only speaks for the constituents within his district. I keep an eye on our elected officials at all times via the news, yet I had never heard of Murtha, until his propaganda. I sometimes wonder if he has even experienced the horrors that I have before I came to this duty. It is no secret that recruiting the best of today's men and women for our Armed Forces is tougher than ever.

I have had people ask me about Murtha and Semper Fi, when I describe to them the pride of belonging they receive should they join the Marines. I simply reply by telling them that he is no longer a Marine and is a disgrace to the Marines of my former battalion the very one from which the Marines are from that he judged, tried, and convicted before they were even home. I have also removed the page with all the famous and successful former marines, which included John Murtha on that list, out of my Marine Corps Opportunity Book, which I use to show people about opportunities in the Marines.

Author’s name withheld for their protection

The disgust for Rep. Murtha comes from the fact that he has mislead the nation and his district into believing he is a strong supporter of America’s military. In truth, he is extremely injurious to America’s military.

One only has to look at what Murtha's has done in taking political advantage of America’s military strength:

· Claims to "speak for the soldiers," but he refuses to listen to Iraq War veterans from his own state of Pennsylvania.

· Continues to tell America that our military "is broken and worn out" in spite of evidence to the contrary.

· Uses his political platform to deny Marines due process under the law. He claimed to have insider information from Pentagon source Gen. Michael Hagee that substantiated his inexcusable sacrifice of soldiers for political gain – a claim Hagee completely refutes.

· Receives Code Pink award from the anti-war group that demonstrates against wounded service personnel at Walter Reed Hospital.

· Earmarks Defense dollars -- pork barrel -- that has bloated the budget and prevented our troops from receiving needed supplies like body armor.

· Inappropriate pushes forward of the Stryker vehicle without proper field testing, which resulted in the deaths of military personnel at the front in Iraq.

· Failures to support Stolen Valor legislation that punishes those who falsely claim to have earned military service medals that they did not earn.

Of course, Murtha served in the military -- in Vietnam. He claims this renders him an irrefutable authority on foreign policy and that anyone else who has not served in the military has no claim. That canard has gone on long enough.

The truth is, what Murtha has done and is doing hurts our military -- as the above recruiter informs us from the front lines. Proof of his damage to the military is also backed up by e-mails from our military in Iraq. Murtha is part of a crowd who just don’t get it that we are fighting an extremist Islamist movement that only wants to kill us and destroy our way of life. Those Islamists are in every country in the Middle East, and they are in Europe and America as well. They cannot be negotiated with, and no amount of United Nations resolutions will solve the problem.

As Carl Von Clausewitz stated, “The only way to defeat your enemy is to defeat his will to fight.”

Our enemies are counting on the American public and leaders like Murtha who are unwilling to pay the price of victory. We have too many leaders who have not learned the real lessons of Vietnam.

If Murtha, Sen. John Kerry and House Minority Leader Nancy Pelosi were true experts about the War in Vietnam, they would be well aware of the words of Bui Tin, who served on the General Staff of the North Vietnam Army and received the unconditional surrender of South Vietnam on April 30, 1975:

Bui Tin, General Staff of the North Vietnam Army:

"It was essential to our strategy" referring to the war being fought on two fronts, the Vietnam battlefield and back home in America through the antiwar movement on college campuses and in the city streets. He further stated the North Vietnamese leadership listened to the American evening news broadcasts "to follow the growth of the American antiwar movement.... America lost because of its democracy; through dissent and protest it lost the ability to mobilize a will to win."

[eddief]

Free Republic
John Murtha: military destroyer
Marine recruiter details Murtha's damage

In America, we rightfully make public examples of the worst behavior in our society. This is true even of our sacred institutions. The recent article by the Associated Press reporting over a hundred women seeking to serve our country were treated in a sexually inappropriate way is just one such disheartening incident. The Armed Forces are spending $1.5 billion on 8,000 recruiters this year.

However, there is other disheartening news coming from a specific recruiter that is telling about Rep. John Murtha (D-PA). Boot Murtha has received anecdotal evidence that Murtha’s words and deeds undermine our military and demoralize our troops. His actions also cause damage to our nation’s recruiting efforts.

The following e-mail message written by a Marine underscores the damage Murtha is doing to the Corp and America's defense capabilities:

I am a Marine on Recruiting duty. John Murtha needs to understand that he only speaks for the constituents within his district. I keep an eye on our elected officials at all times via the news, yet I had never heard of Murtha, until his propaganda. I sometimes wonder if he has even experienced the horrors that I have before I came to this duty. It is no secret that recruiting the best of today's men and women for our Armed Forces is tougher than ever.

I have had people ask me about Murtha and Semper Fi, when I describe to them the pride of belonging they receive should they join the Marines. I simply reply by telling them that he is no longer a Marine and is a disgrace to the Marines of my former battalion the very one from which the Marines are from that he judged, tried, and convicted before they were even home. I have also removed the page with all the famous and successful former marines, which included John Murtha on that list, out of my Marine Corps Opportunity Book, which I use to show people about opportunities in the Marines.

Author’s name withheld for their protection

The disgust for Rep. Murtha comes from the fact that he has mislead the nation and his district into believing he is a strong supporter of America’s military. In truth, he is extremely injurious to America’s military.

One only has to look at what Murtha's has done in taking political advantage of America’s military strength:

· Claims to "speak for the soldiers," but he refuses to listen to Iraq War veterans from his own state of Pennsylvania.

· Continues to tell America that our military "is broken and worn out" in spite of evidence to the contrary.

· Uses his political platform to deny Marines due process under the law. He claimed to have insider information from Pentagon source Gen. Michael Hagee that substantiated his inexcusable sacrifice of soldiers for political gain – a claim Hagee completely refutes.

· Receives Code Pink award from the anti-war group that demonstrates against wounded service personnel at Walter Reed Hospital.

· Earmarks Defense dollars -- pork barrel -- that has bloated the budget and prevented our troops from receiving needed supplies like body armor.

· Inappropriate pushes forward of the Stryker vehicle without proper field testing, which resulted in the deaths of military personnel at the front in Iraq.

· Failures to support Stolen Valor legislation that punishes those who falsely claim to have earned military service medals that they did not earn.

Of course, Murtha served in the military -- in Vietnam. He claims this renders him an irrefutable authority on foreign policy and that anyone else who has not served in the military has no claim. That canard has gone on long enough.

The truth is, what Murtha has done and is doing hurts our military -- as the above recruiter informs us from the front lines. Proof of his damage to the military is also backed up by e-mails from our military in Iraq. Murtha is part of a crowd who just don’t get it that we are fighting an extremist Islamist movement that only wants to kill us and destroy our way of life. Those Islamists are in every country in the Middle East, and they are in Europe and America as well. They cannot be negotiated with, and no amount of United Nations resolutions will solve the problem.

As Carl Von Clausewitz stated, “The only way to defeat your enemy is to defeat his will to fight.”

Our enemies are counting on the American public and leaders like Murtha who are unwilling to pay the price of victory. We have too many leaders who have not learned the real lessons of Vietnam.

If Murtha, Sen. John Kerry and House Minority Leader Nancy Pelosi were true experts about the War in Vietnam, they would be well aware of the words of Bui Tin, who served on the General Staff of the North Vietnam Army and received the unconditional surrender of South Vietnam on April 30, 1975:

Bui Tin, General Staff of the North Vietnam Army:

"It was essential to our strategy" referring to the war being fought on two fronts, the Vietnam battlefield and back home in America through the antiwar movement on college campuses and in the city streets. He further stated the North Vietnamese leadership listened to the American evening news broadcasts "to follow the growth of the American antiwar movement.... America lost because of its democracy; through dissent and protest it lost the ability to mobilize a will to win."


Bull****! Recruiting is tougher these days because of a strong economy and the realities of war that young people are seeing everday on TV and not because of anything politicos are saying.

[fontman]

My Corps is still making quota. Apparently more young Americans with a different point of view than yours, Eddie.

:evilgrin:

[eddief]

My Corps is still making quota. Apparently more young Americans with a different point of view than yours, Eddie.

:evilgrin:

Then the freeper column is wrong. Murtha isn't hurting recruiting efforts.

[Ladderwell]

You are right ladderwell, ms murtha and ms kerry are NOT the problem. The problem is people like YOU!!!!!!!!!!!! Oh ye, who feed off what the left is spewing and run with it. You are the perfect example of that.

SEMPER FI,

Ole Sarge,

The Marine Corps taught me to stand on my own two feet, think for myself, and not be distracted by horseshiq. Do not place me anywhere in the political spectrum except where objective, calm, and rational thought exists. When I add up the numbers of this administration, 2 + 2 = 4, not "WMDs in Iraq (not) PLUS "Nuke development in Iraq (not) PLUS Iraq sponsors Terrorism (not) EQUALS Good Leadership (not).

God save our country and our troops from poor leaders who have their own selfish or ignorant agendas and who control the bully-pulpit in our government. The interests of the People must eventually outweight the interests of the Warmongers.
*
Respectfully,
Ladderwell
Semper Fidelis

[outlaw3179]

Hey ladderwell do me a favor dont talk about the troops like theyre counting on you to save us from the horrors that you never experienced. Obviously during bootcamp when they they teach you about honor , courage, or COMMITMENT you may have either been asleep or malingering somewhere. Either way nobody cares what some turd in the Corps thinks aobut whats good for the troops. So please as a favor , and Im pretty sure I can speak for most of the Marines that I know that I went to combat with GO HAVE A NICE CUP OF SHUT THE F*CK UP AND LET THE MEN DO THE FIGHTING . We are Marines , this is what we do .

[thedrifter]

http://www.thefontman.com/smileys/flogging_a_dead_horse.jpg

[Ladderwell]

Hey ladderwell do me a favor dont talk about the troops like theyre counting on you to save us from the horrors that you never experienced. Obviously during bootcamp when they they teach you about honor , courage, or COMMITMENT you may have either been asleep or malingering somewhere. Either way nobody cares what some turd in the Corps thinks aobut whats good for the troops. So please as a favor , and Im pretty sure I can speak for most of the Marines that I know that I went to combat with GO HAVE A NICE CUP OF SHUT THE F*CK UP AND LET THE MEN DO THE FIGHTING . We are Marines , this is what we do .

Outlaw3179,

Marines are weapons of war. Weapons are not to be abused (Boot Camp 101). When we were Marines (I assume that you are a Former Marine now), we were all gung ho, no questions asked. Then we were the weapons...clean, shiny, well tuned, locked, cocked, ready to rock, etc. Now that we are Former Marines, we need to make certain that the weapons are not abused by those in power. We cannot confuse our positions in the equation. Marines need to act like Marines, and we, as civilians,especially as Former Marines, need to protect them from abuse. For the past six (6) years, the leaders we have elected have FAILED in that job. Those leaders who have the hope of stopping the abuse get my vote, and the vote of anyone who understands what has occurred in Iraq, and as a result of our invasion of Iraq, and who wants leaders who will be able to recognize where the war on terror really is. By the way, it was never in Baghdad until we rolled in.

If you or any of us were there now, we'd better be the biggest, baddest, mf in valley. We would be praying however that whoever put us there knows what the heck they are doing. Unfortunately, they act like they don't, unless they like the results.
*
Respectfully,
Ladderwell
Semper Fidles

[003XXMarineDAD]

Ladderwell another line of the only thing to save us , still the same CUT & RUN DEFEATOCRAT CRAP.

[jinelson]

ROTFLMFAO! Ellie that was great and funny as hell. My only hope is that isnt the mama of the fold that Hrscowboy is naming after me.

:D

[10thzodiac]

Reasons not to invade Iraq by Bush Senior

We would have been forced to occupy Baghdad and, in effect, rule Iraq. The coalition would instantly have collapsed, the Arabs deserting it in anger and other allies pulling out as well. Under those circumstances, furthermore, we had been self-consciously trying to set a pattern for handling aggression in the post-cold war world. Going in and occupying Iraq, thus unilaterally exceeding the U.N.'s mandate, would have destroyed the precedent of international response to aggression we hoped to establish. Had we gone the invasion route, the U.S. could conceivably still be an occupying power in a bitterly hostile land. It would have been a dramatically different--and perhaps barren--outcome.

http://www.thememoryhole.org/mil/bushsr-iraq.htm

[003XXMarineDAD]

Only a fool repeats their mistakes. What has been done in our name AIN'T WORKIN'. Do you suggest more of the same, or a different tack? Too many KIAs and WIAs that aren't going to make a ggd bit of difference in this part of the world, and while they are getting whacked, the hole that they are being pushed into is only making things worse, and will negatively resonate for centuries.

We should solicit proposed solutions to the problem of our poor leadership. Do you have any rational solutions to propose? Does the greater pool of folks reading this have any thoughts to share? Perhaps we should start a new thread, and maybe we can spin up something of value rather than ragtime political wrangling. I propose that we take this to a new level, one of offering solutions, solutions that would result in positive action.

Fellow Former Marines' (or Poolees) suggestions are sought.

Respectfully,
Ladderwell
Semper Fidelis

Well welll well the axis of irrational all on one thread and still no soultion other then to cut & run. Gooo to see the funnies the early in the moring.:bunny:

[greensideout]

Would love to get the exchange above curbstone height.

Anyone with thoughtful suggestions on how to deal with the Iraqi problem?
*
Ladderwell
SF!


Sure, but few want to hear the answer. But what the hey---

Bomb the Mosque, assassinate the the mullahs, burn the school books that teach hate, free the women of their burkas, castrate the radical Islam terrorists, burn the house of Saud and turn Mecca into a Disneyworld. :yes:

[yellowwing]

Disney al Wadi?

[jbrocatomarine]

The Pros and CONS of this :

Murtha isn't the problem,it's Islam, they will not stop untill they have killed everyone.

Solution, Nuke the Bastards..but we don't have the balls for that, so we keep on FLAPPING OUR JIBS. And the our guys in Iraq pay the price. Real nice people,real nice.

[yellowwing]

Uhhh...the Constitution guarantees a change of leadership. Which maybe is a bad thing. The opposition has been in power for decades. We change Govt every 2 years, and change leadership every 4 or 8 years.

We should find some solution. Whoever can actually implement one, basically will own the Middle East.

[ivalis]

"change government every 2 years..."

that's a knee slapper.

the politburo had a higher turnover rate than our congress.

[10thzodiac]

"Politicians should be limited to one term as they have learned to good how to steal the first time!"

He also said, "the reason we won the war, the other side was more fuked up than us!"

[0341Teke]

Well said Ladderwell, This Iraq debacle is a classic example of how far we have drifted from our founding principles. Too many people are confusing "patriotism" for blind loyalty to this cabal of neo-conservative hacks that is the Bush Administration.

But don't criticize the "decider" cuz if you do you are letting down the troops, aiding the enemy, and must be a "liberal" (even if you are a libertarian or a genuine conservative). How dare anyone question the leader? All Heil the leader. The leader knows best. We must support the leader..... is essentially the message of the neo-cons. Wait, let me go look for my brown shirt and my jack-boots they are around here somewhere....

Respectfully,

0341Teke</O:p
<O:p</O:p

[0341Teke]

Ladderwell, I don't know of any good books on Mussolini, but there must be some out there. I would try searching amazon...

I am new to this site and not for the purpose of ****ing people off who support what is going on, but the prevailing wisdom is not always very wise.
You are very thoughtfull and polite in your replies, it is interesting and instructive to see the knee jerk responses and insults in lieu of logical discussion. Everyone gather around and grab a cup of koolaid there is enough for everybody.

FYI, I am no democrat, but I agree with you the neo-cons (who have hijacked the GOP and the country) have got to go. They are a train wreck by virtually every measure. Truth be told, neither party is worthy of office. We only have two choices, the socialists on the democrat side and the fascists on the republican side. As for me, I vote libertarian.

[greensideout]

"change government every 2 years..."

that's a knee slapper.

the politburo had a higher turnover rate than our congress.


So true, they get in and stick like glue. Forget party lines. Vote the bums out!

[0341Teke]

The problem is, realistically there will be little change. Do you think a democrat will scale back the police state and all of the extra-constitutional mythical "powers" of this presidency? I wouldn't count on it.

If the democrats were a legitimate pro-liberty party, I would be less apprehensive. As soon as they get control they will start going after guns again under the auspices of fighting terrorism. But, perhaps as a short term countermeasure to get the current hacks out of Washington and sent back to Mordor where they belong.... In my opinion sadly, we are damned either way. Republican hack scaring you with their "islamo-fascist" boogy men real and imagined, or the chicken little democrats crying about the sky is falling. Either way you go your liberty takes a hit...

[greensideout]

Now we're getting somewhere. The Democrats just voted out Lieberman as being "wrong-headed." It's interesting the voting populace is getting manipulated again, this time by republicans supporting Lieberman!!! This will split the democratic vote in CT, and the Republican will be able to waltz down the aisle while the democrats are cutting each other's throats, while being egged on the Republicans.

Welcome to the Banana Republic!

Haiti, Nicaragua, Cuba, etc.

Respectfully,
Ladderwell
Sf


Let's face it, it's the same old hacks that have been around for way too long.
Line up the democrats and they look like the bar scene from the original Star Wars movie. There's old Teddy K, old Murtha, Slick Willie's wife, Kerry, etc. all being supported by their Hollywood cast.

[10thzodiac]

:p "Remember, democracy never lasts long. It soon wastes, exhausts, and murders itself. There never was a democracy yet that did not commit suicide." ~ John Adams

[greensideout]

:p "Remember, democracy never lasts long. It soon wastes, exhausts, and murders itself. There never was a democracy yet that did not commit suicide." ~ John Adams


True, that's why our founding fathers worked so hard to set up a "Representative Republic" and to warn of the dangers of democracy.

[yellowwing]

to warn of the dangers of democracy.
Just look at California and all there referendums. Those laws are painting themselves in a corner.

[10thzodiac]

Just look at California and all there referendums. Those laws are painting themselves in a corner.

<TABLE width="100%" align=left bgColor=#ffffff><TBODY><TR><TD vAlign=top align=middle colSpan=2>The War in Iraq Costs $311,175,443,794







</TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top align=middle colSpan=2><TABLE align=center bgColor=#ffffff><TBODY><TR><TD vAlign=top align=middle colSpan=2>See the cost in your community (http://costofwar.com/index.html)






</TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top align=middle colSpan=2>Or compare to the cost of:</TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top align=middle>PRE-SCHOOL (http://costofwar.com/index-pre-school.html)
KIDS' HEALTH (http://costofwar.com/index-kids-health.html)
COLLEGE SCHOLARSHIPS (http://costofwar.com/index-public-education.html)
PUBLIC HOUSING (http://costofwar.com/index-public-housing.html)
PUBLIC EDUCATION (http://costofwar.com/index-public-education.html)




</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

[yellowwing]

Kind of a stretch for a segue.

[10thzodiac]

Good Morning Chief!

Just a paint of a different color

SF

[greensideout]

War may be a racket, but as long as our troops are fighting that war our collective butts are covered. Would anyone suggest that we end war and let those who hate us run amuck throughout the world to futher their cause? At this time their cause is to distroy Israel and America. If the racket of war is what produces our safety as a nation, so be it. Thanks to those serving now you can run your mouth by day and sleep well by night.

[10thzodiac]

In the councils of government, we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the militaryindustrial complex. The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists and will persist.

We must never let the weight of this combination endanger our liberties or democratic processes. We should take nothing for granted. Only an alert and knowledgeable citizenry can compel the proper meshing of the huge industrial and military machinery of defense with our peaceful methods and goals, so that security and liberty may prosper ~ Dwight D. Eisenhower

http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/presiden/speeches/eisenhower001.htm

Always there has been some terrible evil at home or some monstrous foreign power that was going to gobble us up if we did not blindly rally behind it.
Douglas MacArthur (http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/d/douglasmac169259.html)

WAR IS A RACKET AND WHO IS PAYING THE PRICE? Thanks to those serving now you can run your mouth by day and sleep well by night.

SF

[greensideout]

Well, two of you seem to have the war problem figured out. One says, end war ("Peace, Peace In our Time"). We have heard that line before in history.
The other one says that war is just a money making deal.
Ok, a question for you both. If we must end war and war is a racket what do you say that the best alternative is?
Remember, we cannot go to the past, it is gone. Your repily must state how your resolve for non-war is better then what is being done now with a war on terrorism.

You are on stage, go for it.

[Ladderwell]

Well, two of you seem to have the war problem figured out. One says, end war ("Peace, Peace In our Time"). We have heard that line before in history.
The other one says that war is just a money making deal.
Ok, a question for you both. If we must end war and war is a racket what do you say that the best alternative is?
Remember, we cannot go to the past, it is gone. Your repily must state how your resolve for non-war is better then what is being done now with a war on terrorism.

You are on stage, go for it.

GSO,

I apologize for the brevity, but I broke my arm this past Saturday. :=0

I didn't see anyone step in to reply, so with continued respect to all, I'd like to wade in.

No Marine, past or present, would disagree that it is better to take the war to the bad guys, vs. waiting for it to come to our shores. I firmly believe that all who belong to this forum strongly feel and think the same in that regard.

I fully agree with taking it to the max when combating violent radicals of all races, creeds, or color. Now we are faced with a great global conflict, currently in the early stages of development, given legs by poor leadership. Our current leadership is trying to the best of their ability to do things right. In the course of doing so, they have given our soldiers, FBI, CIA, NSA, "etc.," plenty of job security. I say this because objectively, from all corners of the world and political spectrum, it is agreed that our current leadership has caused damage that will last for centuries. We will be taking it to our enemies during all that time, and because of our poor leadership, we have had our problems multiplied 10,000 times.

Let's assume that our current leadership came up with precisely the right solution to solve the problems. No one on the face of the planet would give them 1000:1 odds for pulling it off. If they have the perfect solution, it must be handed to new leaders to have a credible chance. The world will not accept another Republican leadership team, not for a long long while. Any replacement, from a 3rd party to the Democrats will stand a much much better chance of beginning the turnaround.

I am not a foreign/international affairs expert. That should be left to the PhDs who've post-holed international mechanisms and ideologies, and who fully grasp the fundamentals, as well as the nuances involved in keeping the international machinery cooperative and functioning for the betterment of all mankind, or at least keep it functioning so that "no one loses." No one may "win," but they stand the maximum chance of not "losing" by relying on the mechanisms and philisophies such as those stated in the preamble to the UN charter.

Regardless of what has been done to date, what is more important is where will we be going in the future. More or less death? More or less wounded? More or less radicalization of the world's population? We need to choose which we want for ourselves, our families, our country, for now and for the next few centuries it will take to "put the Islamic radical" genie back in the bottle.

We need to seek wisdom in coming up with resolutions. There is a time for the gun, a time for peace, a time to gather stones, and a time to spread them out. What I'm driving at is a basic understanding that there is a time for using all tools. We need leadership that can be trusted to use the right tools at the right time. The geometric growth of hate and lost credibility and respect for the US over the past decade proves that new leaders are critically needed, and it can't be the "same ol' same ol'" if are going to have a chance to get things back on the right track in this generation. Otherwise, we push the responsibility of unscrewing our mistakes to our children and children's children, on over the horizon of time.

Thanks for letting me chime in.

Respectfully,
Ladderwell
Semper Fidelis to the Marine Corp, God and Country

[003XXMarineDAD]

I am not a foreign/international affairs expert. That should be left to the PhDs who've post-holed international mechanisms and ideologies, and who fully grasp the fundamentals, as well as the nuances involved in keeping the international machinery cooperative and functioning for the betterment of all mankind, or at least keep it functioning so that "no one loses." No one may "win," but they stand the maximum chance of not "losing" by relying on the mechanisms and philisophies such as those stated in the preamble to the UN charter.


Well for once I agree , you are no foreign affairs expert. I sure want to give the Useless Nations control over what we do in Iraq and else where in the world.
The famous Useless Nations that had the food for oil program that was such a sound plan.
The Useless Nations that protected women and young girls in Chad and the sudan from the over sexed Useless Nation troops.
The Useless Nations that never has a bad word to say about genocide of Jews or Christians but will defend the rights of the sorts of bed fellows like Saddam , Hezbolah, Al Quida, The Taliban.
THe civil nations like France that has only one direction like the Deafocrats here ... CUT AND RUN.
The one good thing I do know is as long as there are one's that belive in things like this I will always have a good laugh and a reason to fight to keep the cut and runners from taking control. My bank account is not as big as the chief supplier of MoveOn .org Greoge Sorros but their are more little people like me that will walk and do door to door talks to get the vote out then the elite pravada party.
Respectfully ladderwell you make me proud to do the walks and door to door because it warms my heart to think how you will look when the plan you think will work will never come to fruition.

:D


http://www.shareaphoto.info/uploads/02d84018aa.jpg (http://www.shareaphoto.info)

[CHOPPER7199]

Oorah, Dale

[Ladderwell]

Well for once I agree , you are no foreign affairs expert. I sure want to give the Useless Nations control over what we do in Iraq and else where in the world.
The famous Useless Nations that had the food for oil program that was such a sound plan.
The Useless Nations that protected women and young girls in Chad and the sudan from the over sexed Useless Nation troops.
The Useless Nations that never has a bad word to say about genocide of Jews or Christians but will defend the rights of the sorts of bed fellows like Saddam , Hezbolah, Al Quida, The Taliban.
THe civil nations like France that has only one direction like the Deafocrats here ... CUT AND RUN.
The one good thing I do know is as long as there are one's that belive in things like this I will always have a good laugh and a reason to fight to keep the cut and runners from taking control. My bank account is not as big as the chief supplier of MoveOn .org Greoge Sorros but their are more little people like me that will walk and do door to door talks to get the vote out then the elite pravada party.
Respectfully ladderwell you make me proud to do the walks and door to door because it warms my heart to think how you will look when the plan you think will work will never come to fruition.

:D


http://www.shareaphoto.info/uploads/02d84018aa.jpg (http://www.shareaphoto.info)

Well, it is easy to understand your position. Someone once said that the United States always does the right thing, after they have done it wrong every other way.

Some learn the easy way, and some learn the hard way. I don't want to bury any more of my friends and relatives than necessary over the next 300 years than I have to. I weep for the men and women who have been uselessly put through the meat grinder, who are getting put through the meat grinder, and who will be put through the meat grinder.

I'm sorry that you do not understand, that you do not "get it." Back at PI, we were always made aware of the "2%" who don't get it, and who never will.

Good luck to you.
*
Ladderwell
SF

[10thzodiac]

"Sometimes I wonder whether the country is being run by smart people who are putting us on or by imbeciles who really mean it."

[iamcloudlander]

Ladderwell
I respect your right to your opinion but I was sent this in an email recently and I thought you might enjoy it.
Here it is enjoy...Very thought provoking.

DON'T CLOSE THE BLINDS

The other day, my nine year old son wanted to know why we were at
war...My husband looked at our son and then looked at me. My husband and
I were in the Army during the Gulf War and we would be honored to serve
and defend our Country again today. I knew that my husband would give
him a good explanation. My husband thought for a few minutes and then
told my son to go stand in our front living room window.

He said "Son, stand there and tell me what you see?"

"I see trees and cars and our neighbor's houses." he replied.

"OK, now I want you to pretend that our house and our yard is the United
States of America and you are President Bush."

Our son giggled and said "OK."

"Now son, I want you to look out the window and pretend that every house
and yard on this block is a different country" my husband said.

"OK Dad, I'm pretending."

"Now I want you to stand there and look out the window and pretend you
see Saddam come out of his house with his wife, he has her by the hair
and is hitting her. You see her bleeding and crying. He hits her in the
face, he throws her on the ground, then he starts to kick her to death.
Their children run out and are afraid to stop him, they are screaming
and crying, they are watching this but do nothing because they are kids
and they are afraid of their father. You see all of this, son....what do
you do?"

"Dad?"

"What do you do son?"

"I'd call the police, Dad."

"OK. Pretend that the police are the United Nations. They take your
call. They listen to what you know and saw but they refuse to help. What
do you do then son?"

"Dad....... but the police are supposed to help!" My son starts to
whine.


"They don't want to son, because they say that it is not their place or
your place to get involved and that you should stay out of it," my
husband says.

"But Dad...he killed her!!" my son exclaims.

"I know he did...but the police tell you to stay out of it. Now I want
you to look out that window and pretend you see our neighbor who you're
pretending is Saddam turn around and do the same thing to his children."

"Daddy...he kills them?"

"Yes son, he does. What do you do?"

"Well, if the police don't want to help, I will go and ask my next door
neighbor to help me stop him." our son says.

"Son, our next door neighbor sees what is happening and refuses to get
involved as well. He refuses to open the door and help you stop him," my
husband says.

"But Dad, I NEED help!!! I can't stop him by myself!!"

"WHAT DO YOU DO SON?" Our son starts to cry.

"OK, no one wants to help you, the man across the street saw you ask for
help and saw that no one would help you stop him. He stands taller and
puffs out his chest. Guess what he does next son?"

"What Daddy?"

"He walks across the street to the old ladies house and breaks down her
door and drags her out, steals all her stuff and sets her house on fire
and then...he kills her. He turns around and sees you standing in the
window and laughs at you. WHAT DO YOU DO?"

"Daddy..."

"WHAT DO YOU DO?" Our son is crying and he looks down and he whispers,
"I'd close the blinds, Daddy."

My husband looks at our son with tears in his eyes and asks him. "Why?"

"Because, Daddy.....the police are supposed to help people who needs
them...and they won't help.... You always say that neighbors are
supposed to HELP neighbors, but they won't help either...they won't help
me stop him...I'm afraid....I can't do it by myself Daddy.....I can't
look out my window and just watch him do all these terrible things
and...and.....do nothing...so....I'm just going to close the blinds....
so
I can't see what he's doing........and I'm going to pretend that it is
not happening."

I start to cry. My husband looks at our nine year old son standing in
the window, looking pitiful and ashamed at his answers to my husband's
questions and he says...

"Son"

"Yes, Daddy."

"Open the blinds because that man.... he's at your front door... "WHAT
DO YOU DO?"

My son looks at his father, anger and defiance in his eyes. He balls up
his tiny fists and looks his father square in the eyes, without
hesitation he says: "I DEFEND MY FAMILY DAD!! I'M NOT GONNA LET HIM HURT
MOMMY OR MY SISTER, DAD!!! I'M GONNA FIGHT HIM, DAD, I'M GONNA FIGHT
HIM!!!!!"

I see a tear roll down my husband's cheek and he grabs our son to his
chest and hugs him tight, and says... "It's too late to fight him, he's
too strong and he's already at YOUR front door son.....you should have
stopped him BEFORE he killed his wife, and his children and the old lady
across the way. You have to do what's right, even if you have to do it
alone, before its too late." my husband whispers. THAT scenario I just
gave you is WHY we are at war with Iraq. When good men stand by and let
evil happen son, THAT is the greatest atrocities in the world won't
affect him. "YOU MUST NEVER BE AFRAID TO DO WHAT IS RIGHT! EVEN IF YOU
HAVE TO DO IT ALONE!" BE PROUD TO BE AN AMERICAN! BE PROUD OF OUR
TROOPS!! SUPPORT THEM!!! SUPPORT AMERICA SO THAT IN THE FUTURE OUR
CHILDREN WILL NEVER HAVE TO CLOSE THEIR BLINDS..."

[iamcloudlander]

This is a little very long, but very informative.

You have to read the Catalogue of events in this brief piece. Then, ask
yourself how anyone can take the position that all we have to do is bring
our troops home from Iraq, sit back, reset the snooze alarm, go back to
sleep, and no one will ever bother us again. In case you missed it, World War III began in November 1979... that alarm has been ringing for years.

US Navy Captain Ouimette is the Executive Officer at Naval Air Station,
Pensacola, Florida. Here is a copy of the speech he gave last month. It is an accurate account of why we are in so much trouble today and why this action is so necessary.

AMERICA NEEDS TO WAKE UP!

That's what we think we heard on the 11th of September 2001 (When more than 3,000 Americans were killed -AD) and maybe it was, but I think it should have been "Get Out of Bed!" In fact, I think the alarm clock has been buzzing since 19! 79 and we have continued to hit the snooze button and roll over for a few more minutes of peaceful sleep since then.

It was a cool fall day in November 1979 in a country going through a
religious and political upheaval when a group of Iranian students attacked and seized the American Embassy in Tehran. This seizure was an outright attack on American soil; it was an attack that held the world's most powerful country hostage and paralyzed a Presidency. The attack on this sovereign U. S. embassy set the stage for events to follow for the next 25 years.

America was still reeling from the aftermath of the Vietnam experience and had a serious threat from the Soviet Union when then, President Carter, had to do something. He chose to conduct a clandestine raid in the desert. The ill-fated mission ended in ruin, but stood as a symbol of America's inability to deal with terrorism.

America's military had been decimated and ! down sized/right sized since the end of the Vietnam War. A poorly trained, poorly equipped and poorly organized military was called on to execute a complex mission that was doomed from the start.

Shortly after the Tehran experience, Americans began to be kidnapped and killed throughout the Middle East. America could do little to protect her citizens living and working abroad. The attacks against US soil continued.

In April of 1983 a large vehicle packed with high explosives was driven
into the US Embassy compound in Beirut When it explodes, it kills 63
people. The alarm went off again and America hit the Snooze Button once more.

Then just six short months later a large truck heavily laden down with
over 2500 pounds of TNT smashed through the main gate of the US Marine Corps headquarters in Beirut and 241 US servicemen are killed. America mourns her dead and hit the Snooze Button once more.
!
Two months later in December 1983, another truck loaded with explosives is driven into the US Embassy in Kuwait, and America continues her slumber.

The following year, in September 1984, another van was driven into the
gate of the US Embassy in Beirut and America slept.

Soon the terrorism spreads to Europe. In April 1985 a bomb explodes in a restaurant frequented by US soldiers in Madrid.

Then in August a Volkswagen loaded with explosives is driven into the main gate of the US Air Force Base at Rhein-Main, 22 are killed and the snooze alarm is buzzing louder and louder as US interests are continually attacked.

Fifty-nine days later a cruise ship, the Achille Lauro is hijacked and we
watched as an American in a wheelchair is singled out of the passenger list and executed.

The terrorists then shift their tactics to bombing civilian airliners when
they bomb TWA Flight 840 in April of 1! 986 that killed 4 and the most tragic bombing, Pan Am Flight 103 over Lockerbie, Scotland in 1988, killing 259.

Clinton treated these terrorist acts as crimes; in fact we are still trying
to bring these people to trial. These are acts of war.

The wake up alarm is getting louder and louder.

The terrorists decide to bring the fight to America. In January 1993, two
CIA agents are shot and killed as they enter CIA headquarters in Langley, Virginia.

The following month, February 1993, a group of terrorists are arrested
after a rented van packed with explosives is driven into the underground
parking garage of the World Trade Center in New York City. Six people are killed and over 1000 are injured. Still this is a crime and not an act of
war? The Snooze alarm is depressed again.

Then in November 1995 a car bomb explodes at a US military complex in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia killing seven service men and women.

A few months later in June of 1996, another truck bomb explodes only 35 yards from the US military compound in Dhahran, Saudi Arabia. It destroys the Khobar Towers, a US Air Force barracks, killing 19 and injuring over 500. The terrorists are getting braver and smarter as they see that America does not respond decisively.

They move to coordinate their attacks in a simultaneous attack on two US embassies in Kenya and Tanzania. These attacks were planned with precision.They kill 224. America responds with cruise missile attacks and goes back to sleep.

The USS Cole was docked in the port of Aden, Yemen for refueling on 12 October 2000, when a small craft pulled along side the ship and exploded killing 17 US Navy Sailors. Attacking a US War Ship is an act of war, but we sent the FBI to investigate the crime and went back to sleep.

And of course you know the events of 11 September 2001. Most Amer! icans think this was the first attack against US soil or in America. How wrong they are. America has been under a constant attack since 1979 and we chose to hit the snooze alarm and roll over and go back to sleep.

In the news lately we have seen lots of finger pointing from every high
officials in government over what they knew and what they didn't know. But if you've read the papers and paid a little attention I think you can see exactly what they knew. You don't have to be in the FBI or CIA or on the National Security Council to see the pattern that has been developing since 1979.

The President is right on when he says we are engaged in a war. I think we have been in a war for the past 25 years and it will continue until we as a people decide enough is enough. America needs to "Get out of Bed" and act decisively now. America has been changed forever. We have to be ready to pay the price and make the sacrifice to ensure our way of life contin! ues. We cannot afford to keep hitting the snooze button again and again and roll over and go back to sleep.

After the attack on Pearl Harbor, Admiral Yamamoto said "... it seems all
we have done is awakened a sleeping giant and filled him with a terrible
resolve."

This is the message we need to disseminate to terrorists around the world.

Support Our Troops and support President Bush for having the courage,
political or militarily, to address what so many who preceded him didn't
have the backbone to do both Democrat and Republican. This is not a
political thing to be hashed over in an election year this is an AMERICAN
thing. This is about our Freedom and the Freedom of our children in years to
come.

If you believe in this please forward it to as many people as you can
especially to the young people and all those who dozed off in history class
and who seem so quick to protest such a necessary military action.

! If you don't believe it, just delete it and go back to sleep.

[iamcloudlander]

This is sooo sooo good! And a big encouragement to hear!

This is from one who is packing to go back to Iraq from
a two week leave. It's amazing the differences he reports than the media.

As I head off to Baghdad for the final weeks of my stay in Iraq, I wanted to say thanks to all of you who did not believe the media. They have done a very poor job of covering everything that has happened. I am sorry that I have not been able to visit all of you during my two week leave back home. And just so you can rest at night knowing something is happening in Iraq that is noteworthy, I thought I would pass this on to you. This is the list of things that has happened in Iraq recently: (Please share it with your friends and compare it to the version that your paper is producing)

-Over 4.5 million people have clean drinking water for the first time ever in Iraq.

-Over 400,000 kids have up to date immunizations.

-Over 1500 schools have been renovated and ridded of the weapons that were stored there so education can occur.

-The port of Uhm Qasar was renovated so grain can be off loaded from ships faster.

-School attendance is up 80% from levels before the war.

-The country had it's firs! t 2 billion barrel export of oil in August.

-The country now receives 2 times the electrical power it did before the war.

-100% of the hospitals are open and fully staffed compared to 35% before the war.

-Elections are taking place in every major city and city councils are in place.

-Sewer and water lines are installed in every major city.

-Over 60,000 police are patrolling the streets.

-Over 100,000 Iraqi civil defense police are securing the country.

-Over 80,000 Iraqi soldiers are patrolling the streets side by side with US soldiers.

-Over 400,000 people have telephones for the first time ever.

-Students are taught field sanitation and hand washing techniques to prevent the spread of germs.

-An interim constitution has been signed.

&nb! sp;-Girls are allowed to attend school for the first time ever in Iraq.

-Text books that don't mention Saddam are in the schools for the first time in 30 years.

Don't believe for one second that these people do not want us there. I have met many many people from Iraq that want us there and in a bad way. They say they will never see the freedoms we talk about but they hope their children will.


We are doing a good job in Iraq and I challenge anyone,
anywhere to dispute me on these facts. So If you happe! n to run into John Kerry, be sure to give him my email address and send him to Denison, Iowa. This soldier will set him straight. If you are like me and very disgusted with how this period of rebuilding has been portrayed, email this to a friend and let them know there are good things happening.

[yellowwing]

Is that what we have been reduced to? A simple minded copy and paste democracy? Is that all you got? No personal examples of life in the Republic?

[chafas2531]

:marine: Out of the mouth of babes... Outstanding! I shed tears of pity for a people who have long lost their moral compass to do what is right. God help us to never forget how to make a fist and use it! If needed. God bless America!
SEMPER FIDELIS!:usmc:
ben

[Ladderwell]

[QUOTE=iamcloudlander]Ladderwell
I respect your right to your opinion but I was sent this in an email recently and I thought you might enjoy it.
Here it is enjoy...Very thought provoking.

DON'T CLOSE THE BLINDS

Cloudlander,

Interesting story, and one that address "doing the right thing." It has it's place in the mind of a child for dictating action, but not in the mind of an adult.

We didn't go into Afhanistan until they trained terrorists who attacked NY. The Taliban had been doing all of the things mentioned in the story, but didn't go in until it was justified on the world stage. Otherwise, we would have caused more problems than we would have solved.

Someone once said that the US is not the world's police force. We used to the the moral reference point for the world, but that is no longer so. It's been squandered.

In the present, there are political systems equally as bad to many of their citizens as the Taliban (Korea, Iran, Somalia, the Congo, the Sudan, and others that come and go all the time. By the way, I didn't see the reality of Iraq in your story. It was unrelated. Back on point, the US needs to pick their battles, and only go into battles that we know we can win, and bide our time until it can be done right. We have an agressive US government now that only wants to fight and saber-rattle across the world. This causes untold numbers of people to hate us, and teach their children to hate us, and put it into their history books where our actions will be pointed to as examples of a "bad America," and they will be justified.

Our present administration went int Iraq on the premise of WMDs ( a lie ), and their ties to terror (also a lie). That caused more trouble than the world can handle. None of what was actually going on was mentioned in your story, which is going on across the globe under other opressive governments. We know the results of the ill-advised actions, and no amount of 20-20 hindsight or making excuses (none really made yet), but fanciful rethinking and constructing weak rationalizations and justifications in that hindsight are cutting it in the eyes of a majority of US citizens, and certainly the vast vast majority of the rest of the people with whom we share this planet.

The story was a nice story, but as adults, we cannot act with our hearts so much as we need to act with our heads.

Respectfully,
Ladderwell
SF

[10thzodiac]

After reading the pro-war posts after my last post, there are a number of things that come to my mind.

Pre 1979 who supported the Iranian Shaw’s repressive dictatorship, whose brutal secret police the Savak, formed under the guidance of CIA who was murdering his own family. Who gave this murder of his own people aid in asylum?

As far as the neighbor (Saddam) across the street killing his wife and children, who sold him the weaponry knowing this? Who supported this murder of his own family while warring and killing his neighbors the Iranians?

Who are the people telling their children to go and kill their neighbor because they kill their family and neighbors?

Look into the mirror and you will see the murder of you own children.

[redneck13]

I say this because objectively, from all corners of the world and political spectrm, it is agreed that our current leadership has caused damage that will last for centuries. We will be taking it to our enemies during all that time, and because of our poor leadership, we have had our problems multiplied 10,000 times.If what you have said is true? Explain, in "DETAIL" what "DAMAGE" has been done? If you can't? I wouldn't be flippin' those gum's, without some significant proof.

[10thzodiac]

I say this because objectively, from all corners of the world and political spectrm, it is agreed that our current leadership has caused damage that will last for centuries. We will be taking it to our enemies during all that time, and because of our poor leadership, we have had our problems multiplied 10,000 times.If what you have said is true? Explain, in "DETAIL" what "DAMAGE" has been done? If you can't? I wouldn't be flippin' those gum's, without some significant proof.


http://islamicweb.com/begin/population.htm (http://islamicweb.com/begin/population.htm)


:!:

[Ladderwell]

I say this because objectively, from all corners of the world and political spectrm, it is agreed that our current leadership has caused damage that will last for centuries. We will be taking it to our enemies during all that time, and because of our poor leadership, we have had our problems multiplied 10,000 times.If what you have said is true? Explain, in "DETAIL" what "DAMAGE" has been done? If you can't? I wouldn't be flippin' those gum's, without some significant proof.

Redneck13,

I get my data from: Leatherneck Magazine, the CSmonitor, AP, NPR, Boston Globe, and studying history books. It is the result of seeking knowledge when my son, a combat medic, was in the queue to head over there during the first Gulf War, the Balkans, and Afghanistan. I cannot list "in detail" what responsible citizens should have been learning all along over these past many years. If you are out of the Corps, then you should be studying too. Study the history of Islam from its beginning. Study the history of the League of Nations and the United Nations. Study Hitler and Mussolini's fascist states, the Fall of the Roman Empire. Read the Declaration of Independence and our Constitution. Damage? Here are a few, and then I have to go to an appointment:

1) 10,000 more Osama bin Ladens have been created in the world since the invastion of Iraq.
2) The US is being left alone to fight the war in Iraq and the mess we've caused for ourselves.
3) Our men and women are dying over there for no justifyable reasons other than now we have to fight a rear guard action as we try to exticate ourselves of the mess we've caused ourselves.
4) Because we lied or went in on absolutely false information, no one in the Islamic world can every trust us to act intelligently or wisely in international affairs.
5) We did what Osama bin Laden predicted we would do, and thereby proved his case to the Islamic world.
6) We proved ourselves to be Yosemite Sam's, shooting first instead of thinking first. Our "cowboy diplomacy" doesn't work in the long run. Sure, we can run up body counts today, but that will be nothing compared to our own body count over the next 300 years, on the pile of which may be our own country.
7) Iraq is proving to be a training ground for Islamic fundamentalists who will take take their training home with them, create instability all over the world. This instability will create dozens of fronts on which we must fight.

Redneck13, does this make any sense to you?

Take the passion we share for being good citizens and work towards long term solutions.
*
Respectfully,
A fellow former Marine,
Ladderwell
Sf

[10thzodiac]

Thats funny...The current leadership has also saved thousands and thousands of lives by deterring the terror network. 9-11 was nothing compared to what Osama would like to do to the US. Funny how being underground helps curb the "big" attacks that are still being planned, but with less resources and opportunities.

Funnier yet how the leadership before this one a couple opportunities to take our Osama, never acted on it and allowed the terror network to grow. Essentially leaving I for someone else with more balls to handle it.

Funniest of all is how all the people bashing the war and leadership now, are the same people who had no problem with going to war right after 9-11.

God I hate hypocrites!

I thought everybody wanted Usama bin Ladin after 9/11, not war per se, especially Iraq.

Balls to handle it? Where is Usama priority number one, oh he's hiding!

American intelligence to see it coming past or present administration, LMAO

No hypocrite here, it was tit for tat 9/11, I hope that isn't over everybody's head tit for tat? Repayment in kind for our Middle East policy.

Smedley you were right, but it is dangerous to be right when your country is wrong, as you know and found out. Semper Fidelis to the First Marine who was a Marine deeper than his tattoo and worth his salt in telling the truth! "War is a Racket"

Wake up America before more of our finest and treasure is squandered and it is too late.

[redneck13]

I'll have to say without reservation, "RIGHT ON THE MONEY JERRY", you made a "TERRIFIC" point. SF
Thats funny...The current leadership has also saved thousands and thousands of lives by deterring the terror network. 9-11 was nothing compared to what Osama would like to do to the US. Funny how being underground helps curb the "big" attacks that are still being planned, but with less resources and opportunities.

Funnier yet how the leadership before this one had a couple opportunities to take out Osama, never acted on it and allowed the terror network to grow. Thus allowing 9-11 to happen. Essentially leaving it for someone else with more balls to handle it.

Funniest of all is how all the people bashing the war and leadership now, are the same people who had no problem with going to war right after 9-11.

God I hate hypocrites!

[Ladderwell]

This is a little very long, but very informative.

You have to read the Catalogue of events in this brief piece. .

Cloudlander,

With all due respect to the Captain (Colonel rank in the Corps), he is a necessary part of the war machine. He has trooops' morale to protect, and any questioning of the commander-in-chief is a breach in the chain of command, and goes directly against standard military protocol.

His statement of the war's beginning in 1975 shows that he is completely unaware that the war began in 650, when Islam exploded on to the world scene in a wave of wars that extended North, East and West out of what is now known as Saudi Arabia.

The hornet's nest kicked open by our country's republican leadership betray the same ignorance of history as alluded to by the Captain.

Let's talk casualties. The West (and for that matter all "Infidels") have had to contend with the violent aspect of Islam. Among the losses in those contentions have been loss of life. A few here, a few there, a dozen here, there, a thousand here, there, etc. On a global scale these numbers are negligible. Is it worth killing millions to redeem the thousands? With a 300 year war ahead of us, that is what we face.

So, Captain Ohmet can still talk the warrior's talk, and as stated before, there is a place for warriors, but not as the controlling force in society. We only know how to kill and conquer. It's their job description. The military needs to have the respect of all, but civilians run the government, and we choose those leaders. Our current leaders have caused too much damage to be given yet another term to worsen the damage, that includes the abuse and waste of our military and treasure barking up the wrong tree in Iraq. Iraq didn't have diddily to do with Terror....but now it does, providing the best training ground and propaganda machine for Islamist radicals than they could ever have hoped for.

Post 9/11 we had the world on our side. Post Iraqi invasion we lost the world.

Respectfully,
Ladderwell
SF

[Ladderwell]

Thats funny...The current leadership has also saved thousands and thousands of lives by deterring the terror network. ....

Funnier yet how the leadership before this one a couple opportunities to take our Osama, never acted on it and allowed the terror network to grow. Essentially leaving I for someone else with more balls to handle it.

Funniest of all is how all the people bashing the war and leadership now, are the same people who had no problem with going to war right after 9-11.

God I hate hypocrites!

Shaffer,

1) the current leadership has set the plate for the "thousands and thousands" of lives to be saved, but only after fueling the fires of hate for the US by their actions. Those thousands and thousands are nothing compared to the "dogs of war" being unleashed for the next 300 years."

2) 20-20 hindsight in not taking Bin Laden out beforehand proves useful. it would have been best to do so. However, the same 20-20 hindsight can be used with the Republican leadership, by looking at the repercussions (sic) of their actions that resonate across the globe (and back). What do we do now with the same leadership?

3) Hold on. The people against the war now who were so gung-ho post 9/11 gave their trust to our leadership that they would make the right decisions. Since then, every serious factor given to "the people" has been proved absolutely false, without ever hearing an apology from the leadership. We have not heard an apology for the war, an apology for the dead, the wounded, the destruction, and the geometric growth of more of the same unless we can reintegrate with integrity and credibility with the civilized world. It is in the hands of the people to choose better leaders than we have inflicted on ourselves and the world.
*
Respectfully,
Ladderwell
SF

[Ladderwell]

This is sooo sooo good! And a big encouragement to hear!

This is from one who is packing to go back to Iraq from
a two week leave. \! n to run into John Kerry, be sure to give him my email address and send him to Denison, Iowa. This soldier will set him straight. If you are like me and very disgusted with how this period of rebuilding has been portrayed, email this to a friend and let them know there are good things happening.

Question: What does any of what we have accomplished there have to do with WMDs, Nuclear R&D, and Terrorism? These were the reasons we were given for being there.

What has our adventures cost us it terms of life and treasure? Is it worth it to have ignited a global war that will take 300 years to quell? Will 100-200 years find Iraq run under an Islamic sword? History shows that in time, it will eventually be the same ol' same ol', and at what cost? What cost. W h a t c o s t!

Going back to Iraq.

I pray that you and your brothers and sisters will come home safely.

Respectfully,
*
Ladderwell
SF

[Ladderwell]

The fires of hate were already there and will always be there. Americans by nature are arrogant. The leadership of each admiinistration after Reagan has played a part in that. However society on a whole plays a bigger part.

That leadership included the congressmen and senators (both republican and dumb-asses) which authorized the war AND agreed that iraq had ties with Osama. Which of course is well documented. They are leaders too.

I am sure you are one of those hypocrites I mentioned above.

Shaffer,

Please accept my apology for whatever I have stated that causes you to be rude and disresptful.

The fires of hate for America have always existed. Trying to put out those flames with a refinery full of jet-fuel, as the Republican Administration has done, and is doing, cannot have a positive outcome.

In the computer industry there is an adage "Garbage in, garbage out." With governmental leaders of both parties having been elected at the time of the Iraqi invasion. The Republicans controlled the House of Representatives, the Senate, and the Executive branch, and also had done a fair job at packing the Supreme Court. The Intelligence (i.e. "Garbage In") fed to us by the Executive Branch (the Presidency), was respectfully gobbled down (as good citizens might be inclined to do), and a poor decision ("Garbage Out") to follow our leadership was supported by both houses of congress.

Now how do we respond to leaders of this caliber? Where does the "buck stop?" In my experience, it stopped at the leader's desk. Here it stops at the bozos at Abu Greb, or Marines reacting to the stress of war in a hostile land. Where is the Accountability? Who "led" us to make this mistake of historical and cataclysmic proportions?

How are rational people to react?

Respectfully,
Ladderwell
SF

[greensideout]

Redneck13,

I get my data from: Leatherneck Magazine, the CSmonitor, AP, NPR, Boston Globe, and studying history books. It is the result of seeking knowledge when my son, a combat medic, was in the queue to head over there during the first Gulf War, the Balkans, and Afghanistan. I cannot list "in detail" what responsible citizens should have been learning all along over these past many years. If you are out of the Corps, then you should be studying too. Study the history of Islam from its beginning. Study the history of the League of Nations and the United Nations. Study Hitler and Mussolini's fascist states, the Fall of the Roman Empire. Read the Declaration of Independence and our Constitution. Damage? Here are a few, and then I have to go to an appointment:

1) 10,000 more Osama bin Ladens have been created in the world since the invastion of Iraq.
2) The US is being left alone to fight the war in Iraq and the mess we've caused for ourselves.
3) Our men and women are dying over there for no justifyable reasons other than now we have to fight a rear guard action as we try to exticate ourselves of the mess we've caused ourselves.
4) Because we lied or went in on absolutely false information, no one in the Islamic world can every trust us to act intelligently or wisely in international affairs.
5) We did what Osama bin Laden predicted we would do, and thereby proved his case to the Islamic world.
6) We proved ourselves to be Yosemite Sam's, shooting first instead of thinking first. Our "cowboy diplomacy" doesn't work in the long run. Sure, we can run up body counts today, but that will be nothing compared to our own body count over the next 300 years, on the pile of which may be our own country.
7) Iraq is proving to be a training ground for Islamic fundamentalists who will take take their training home with them, create instability all over the world. This instability will create dozens of fronts on which we must fight.

Redneck13, does this make any sense to you?

Take the passion we share for being good citizens and work towards long term solutions.
*
Respectfully,
A fellow former Marine,
Ladderwell
Sf


You build your case on a foundation of straw---(delusion).
Let's review your 7 points----

1. They were and continue to be in the mosques and schools. It's not a new result of the war.

2. We have almost always fought the wars alone. We alone have the balls and money to do so.

3. The justifiable reason for this war is 9-11. Our loss of troops is sad as it is in every war but you must remember that this IS War and it requires your respect for those that have given their all.

4. The "false information" as you put it was accepted by both parties and BOTH voted to go to war. BOTH PARTIES---Get it?

5. A child could have predicted how we would respond to the attact of 9-11 and the killing of our citizens.

6. As a Marine you should know that a good offense requires little defense.

7. Islamic training grounds were already established long before the war. Again, no change of activity by them, just a continuation of hate.


Be a good citizen and begin to think like one!


Respectfully submitted by a Marine thats not going to roll over for these bastards that want to destroy our way of life and kill our citizens.

[OLE SARG]

Greensideout,
You hit the nail on the head with your post. All these leftist screws seem to conveniently FORGET that BOTH DUMBASS PARTIES VOTED TO GO TO WAR!!!!!!!!! INCLUDING ms kerry, dickhead durbin, dirty harry, swimmer kennedy, just to name a few!!!!!

SEMPER FI,

[10thzodiac]

I don't know exactly when they came here from Poland but they have lived next door to me about five years.

They go back to Europe quite often and travel to Spain and etc. I asked them this afternoon what the people are saying back in Poland and around Europe about our war in Iraq. The families son, about forty put his head down and acted embarrassed to say anything. I asked, "are they saying that they don't like it" and sheepishly he nodded yes. Further in conversation he said when he first came to this country it was much better than now, that everything has become more expensive, you use to be able to go to the grocery store with twenty dollars, now a hundred is nothing and in Europe too (using US dollars)." He mentioned that this whole place could go up anytime, a terrorist nuclear bomb...he seem more worried about that then I.

Three things noteworthy:

1) Europeans evidently do not like our war in Iraq (foreign policy).

2) Did you ever hear a immigrant say America use to be better?

3) Our money is depreciating in value as fast abroad as home.

If immigrants can see that America has lost which way up is, then what? Are we destined to be a use to be country? If I see a For Sale sign go up next door, I will let you know... the canary in the coal mine

[Ladderwell]

Respecfully submitted by a Former Marine who think exactly as you do, but applies different knowledge and experience to the same problem(s). <br />
Ladderwell <br />
SF

[Ladderwell]

Greensideout,
You hit the nail on the head with your post. All these leftist screws seem to conveniently FORGET that BOTH DUMBASS PARTIES VOTED TO GO TO WAR!!!!!!!!! INCLUDING ms kerry, dickhead durbin, dirty harry, swimmer kennedy, just to name a few!!!!!

SEMPER FI,

"I have no use for a man who receives new information that should change his understanding of a situation, and doesn't change himself or his position." WINSTON CHURCHILL

The Democrats and the governing Republicans were told lies and falsehoods from the position of the presidency, and acted as they should have acted, voting to go to war. When it was determined that NONE of the supposed truths were in fact true, and that the intelligence was "cooked" by the governing administration, most of those same people changed their minds about the abhorent mistake, and are trying to get ourselves off the stakes upon which we have flung ourselves, our citizens, and our country.

Winston Churchill had it right. I stand with his position in terms of our present straits. Vote the bums out!

Ole Sarge. Try getting in a helicopter or Harrier and lift yourself a few miles high over the battlefield, and look at the big picture. It will (or should) change you.

Respectfully,
Ladderwell
SF

[10thzodiac]

Ladderwell...how far to the left are you?

Do you know the casulaties in WWI and WWII. Get real!

All though 2600 lives were lost and it is very sad. I feel for their families. However, they joined the service and knew the risk. However their life expectancy is far greater than any of the other wars where heroes fought and died.

There were alot of other idiots just like you who thought that WWI & WWII were nothing but political BS by our then U.S. President. There were thousands of idiot protesters. How did that work out?

Let me guess, you joined the Corps to goto college.


The most decorated soldier Marine of his time I suppose was an idiot protester too. General Smedley D. Butler 2 MOH's

Rationalize that one away if you can?

[Ladderwell]

Ladderwell...how far to the left are you?
] I'm a little to left of Center.

Do you know the casulaties in WWI and WWII. Get real!
There were 10s of millions killed during WWII. Over the next 300 years of fighting we will need to do to get the "Iraq" genie back in the bottle, will be many times that.B]

All though 2600 lives were lost and it is very sad. I feel for their families. However, they joined the service and knew the risk. However their life expectancy is far greater than any of the other wars where heroes fought and died.
[B]Our men and women are beign wasted for a cause based on lies and false leadership. It's easy to brush off the lives of the 2600, as long as they are not kith and kin. Most Marines, and former Marines would die willingly for a just cause. Iraq ain't it!

There were alot of other idiots just like you who thought that WWI & WWII were nothing but political BS by our then U.S. President. There were thousands of idiot protesters. How did that work out?
I saw the seeds of WWI and WWII in reading a biography and autobiography of U.S. Grant. I was not living in those times, but I hope that I would rely on my same sense of moral backbone and history to assist as best I could. In studying post WWI leaders Hitler and Mussolini, I detect remarkable and despicable parallels in today's Republican administration:
1) false and unjustified invasion of a soverign land.
2) squelching of the intellectuals in the society
3) Book burning
4) Character assassination.
5) State control of propaganda machines
6) Vilification and removal of the opposition parties.
7) My way or the highway drumbeats from the ruling administration
8) Blatant disregard for the due process of law in the guise of "state security"
Let me guess, you joined the Corps to goto college.
No, I joined the Corps because I am an American, and wanted to do all I was capable of as a citizen, especially in a time of war, following in the footsteps of my father. Going to college came after serving my time. It has helped me a better person and a better citizen, giving me knowledge of America and American culture and history, its ties to the rest of the Globe, and teaching me how to be a life-long student, and a life-long good citizen, again, to the best of my ability.

Respectfully,
Ladderwell
SF

[Ladderwell]

Hot off the AP WIRE:

Jim Abrams, Associated Press Writer | September 9, 2006

WASHINGTON --Saddam Hussein rejected overtures from al-Qaida and believed Islamic extremists were a threat to his regime, a reverse portrait of an Iraq allied with Osama bin Laden painted by the Bush White House, a Senate panel has found.

The administration's version was based in part on intelligence that White House officials knew was flawed, according to Democrats on the Senate Intelligence Committee, citing newly declassified documents released by the panel.

The report, released Friday, discloses for the first time an October 2005 CIA assessment that prior to the war Saddam's government "did not have a relationship, harbor or turn a blind eye toward" al-Qaida operative Abu Musab al-Zarqawi or his associates.
As recently as an Aug. 21 news conference, President Bush said people should "imagine a world in which you had Saddam Hussein" with the capacity to make weapons of mass destruction and "who had relations with Zarqawi."

Democrats singled out CIA Director George Tenet, saying that during a private meeting in July Tenet told the panel that the White House pressured him and that he agreed to back up the administration's case for war despite his own agents' doubts about the intelligence it was based on.

"Tenet admitted to the Intelligence Committee that the policymakers wanted him to 'say something about not being inconsistent with what the president had said,'" Intelligence Committee member Carl Levin, D-Mich., told reporters Friday.

Tenet also told the committee that complying had been "the wrong thing to do," according to Levin.

"Well, it was much more than that," Levin said. "It was a shocking abdication of a CIA director's duty not to act as a shill for any administration or its policy."...

Ladderwell
SF

[OLE SARG]

ms ladderwell,
DON'T TELL ME ABOUT LOOKING AT A ****ING BATTLEFIELD - I SPENT TWO (2) TOURS IN VIETNAM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
KNOW WHAT THE **** YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT BEFORE YOU SHOOT OFF THAT LEFT ****ING MOUTH OF YOURS!!!!!!!!!!!!!

SEMPER ****ING FI,

[10thzodiac]

I have an Army friend that did three tours in Vietnam, he wasn't a wing wiper he was a pencil pusher in Saigon and he said the worst thing that ever happened to him was "Chuck" got the generator and he couldn't have cold beer that evening. He has a cigar box full of medals an admits he didn't do sh*t.

[FistFu68]

:usmc: THERE ARE ONLY TWO KIND'S OF MEN IN THIS WORLD,WHEN THE CHIT; HIT'S THE FAN!THOSE WHO STAND UP AND FIGHT;AND THOSE WHO RUN! :usmc: (LONG LIVE FORCE)

[OLE SARG]

zodiac,
I don't know if your post was directed at me but I was a pencil pusher and DID SEE COMBAT!!!!!!!! I don't know who the **** "chuck" was but we were fighting the Viet Cong or VC. I even got some "jane fonda kerry" injuries but I damn sure didn't deserve a Purple Heart.

SEMPER FI,

[FistFu68]

:usmc: WHAT KIND OF MAN,WOULDN'T EVEN HAVE ENOUGH BALL'S:TO EVEN PUT HIS GOD, GIVEN NAME ON HIS PROFILE? :usmc:

[10thzodiac]

:usmc: WHAT KIND OF MAN,WOULDN'T EVEN HAVE ENOUGH BALL'S:TO EVEN PUT HIS GOD, GIVEN NAME ON HIS PROFILE? :usmc:

to beat the crap out of people until they can pronounce it right!

I'm not as good as I once was, but good enough once as I was :p

[jinelson]

http://www.shareaphoto.info/uploads/62298052ac.jpg (http://www.shareaphoto.info)

The hero of the liberal left and Islamofascists!

[Ladderwell]

ms ladderwell,
DON'T TELL ME ABOUT LOOKING AT A ****ING BATTLEFIELD - I SPENT TWO (2) TOURS IN VIETNAM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
KNOW WHAT THE **** YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT BEFORE YOU SHOOT OFF THAT LEFT ****ING MOUTH OF YOURS!!!!!!!!!!!!!

SEMPER ****ING FI,

Ole Sarge:

1) Guideline for our forum: Open Squad Bay Exchange ideas and thoughts with your Band of Brothers. Remember to be courteous and respectful.

2) Please accept my apology for not having a clue to what you are talking about. Your statement attributed a false quote to me: "Looking at a battlefield." I had to search this thread, but not once did I ever use the word "battlefield." Please speak true. Feel free to explain yourself again. I'd like to try to understand you.

3) Also, this is supposed to be a "courteous and respectful" exchange among members of the Marine Corps family, not something that can happen at any bar. People's lives are at stake. Our country is at stake. We need to be serious about what we say and do. When in doubt, refer to #1.

4) Because you brought it up, I will mention battlefields.

Battlefields have changed over the millennia, from sticks an clubs across a stream, through the slings and arrows and spears, the incorporation of catapults during Roman times up until the advent of the use of gunpowder. Men fought up close at sea ("Marine" and "Leatherneck" came from there, assuming you recall the data from the Red Book given at PI while you were there (assuming were there and not in San Diego) We learned about "quarterfoils" on officer's hats so our snipers could recognize "our own" from the rigging, etc. We added artillery, howitzers and mortars as time went on, always changing the battlefield. We use a variety of small arms since the 15th or 16th century, and they held sway until the Germans first used the machine gun when they invaded Belgium. That also began the use of Mustard Gas (killed my Uncle Mike), and eventually tanks. Boy, were we getting better and better at killing. WWII saw more innovation, not just refinements of old technology, especially with the use of radar, rockets, and the A-Bomb. Korea saw the first large scale use of jets.

Go check out the movie "All Quiet on the Western Front" for an educational experience about old war veterans whipping the youth of the county to fight, and the consequences.

Viet Nam was a war fought with many elements, including military and propaganda....and I am going to stop continuing on this line of thought because there is too much to note. However, to encapsulate where I wanted to take this, wars that were "won" were ususally won by the side with the most intelligence and the most wisdom. The Republican government here in the states has exhibited neither. The battlefields of anti-terror today are not with army vs. army, but a combination of intelligence and "rifle shots" to take out the bad guys, and most importantly, in some way, to reach the children of the cultures that spawn the likes of bin Laden and the ignorant in the Islamic world.

In that mental battlefield, the tools of firepower have no place. Those tools need to come from the intelligencia (sic), the academics, the objective educational institutions that can penetrate the stone walls and rhetoric of hate, and reach their soft spots, where the changes that are effected will be forever.

Forget Left and Right. This is a country of people from different cultures and histories that have come together on the common ground of what it means to be American. Since the Republicans took power, we spend months worrying about love stains on a dress, a guy cheating on his wife, and in exchange we got an unholy war, based on lies and falsehood, and which will last long after today's veterans are dead, buried, and turned to dust.

That is what we have to thank the Republicans for. That is what we deserve for electing a president of the caliber he is. The only way out is through another party. The Republicans will not be listened to on the world stage, and we are not an island. We have to live in the "family of man," whether we like it or not.

So, Ole Sarge, please do not go off half-cocked in attacking your brother (perceived as a black sheep or not). We have bigger fish to fry. We need to start thinking about where this country will be in a few hundred years, and our children, and children's children, etc. too. Our country's life, and our citizens' lives will be hell for 300 years while we try to unscrew the mess directly created by the Republican leadership over the past decade.

Prepare for battle. Prepare your children for battle. If you want to see them live, just don't put rifles in their hands and thoughts of all-out-war in their heads, though there will certainly be a place for that, but you may want to consider sending them to those "hippie commie pinko" universities that study all side of issues, and offer the only hope of sane, long-lasting solutions to the world's problems.

Ever respectfully,
Ladderwell
Always Faithful to my Corps, my Honor, my God, and my Country. Always

p.s. Before replying, please take a few deep breaths, review the guidelines for the forum, and then do so. I eagerly look forward to a thought-full response.

[003XXMarineDAD]

Ole Sarge here is the types that ladderwell wants to lead us to utopia.


http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL1224/4509617/11257035/186267013.jpg

Looks to me that many of the just woke up from a bad acid trip, which many I'am sure are still having.
This are the local one we have here at the college and yes they are Pravada's best.They can quote from the good red book of lenin and mao.

Now here is a group that I stand with which is I'am sure the ones you would stand with.
http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL1224/4509617/11257035/186266883.jpg

I think we know which one group ladderwell stands with.It's the one with no flag other then the Useless Nations.

:D

[Ladderwell]

Ole Sarge here is the types that ladderwell wants to lead us to utopia.


http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL1224/4509617/11257035/186267013.jpg

Looks to me that many of the just woke up from a bad acid trip, which many I'am sure are still having.
This are the local one we have here at the college and yes they are Pravada's best.They can quote from the good red book of lenin and mao.

Now here is a group that I stand with which is I'am sure the ones you would stand with.
http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL1224/4509617/11257035/186266883.jpg

I think we know which one group ladderwell stands with.It's the one with no flag other then the Useless Nations.

:D

This is what is being lapped up by a quarter of the world's population: "The Bush presidency was a bunch of cocky fools, motivated by crusader hatred ... which led them to imagine that they could takeover the entire world," he said. "They threw themselves, their people and their nation into a sea of fire from which they are uselessly trying to secure themselves." bin Laden

We may hate the sob, but the truth of the matter is, Iraq didn't have a dang thing to do with Terror or the rest of the reasons given to us by the Bush presidency, that has thrown us into this mess.

Sadly, and respectfully,
Ladderwell
SF

[Ladderwell]

Marine Dad:

Which one might you lean to?
http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://k43.pbase.com/u45/kayakbiker/upload/29092672.03Ghandietal.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.pbase.com/kayakbiker/image/29092672&h=430&w=576&sz=68&hl=en&start=226&tbnid=efDDVTWCINys-M:&tbnh=100&tbnw=134&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dghandi%26start%3D216%26ndsp%3D18%26sv num%3D10%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26rls%3DDGUS,DGUS:2006-13,DGUS:en%26sa%3DN

OR
http://www.loc.gov/rr/print/swann/craws/images/05886r.jpg

Equally playfully, and still respectfully,
Ladderwell
SF

[Ladderwell]

Good night all.

Need shuteye.
*
Ladderwell
SF

[10thzodiac]

The people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders . . . All you have to do is to tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism."<!--mstheme--><!--msthemelist--><!--msthemelist--><!--mstheme-->-HERMANN GOERING, Nazi Gestapo

[003XXMarineDAD]

"The Bush presidency was a bunch of cocky fools, motivated by crusader hatred ... which led them to imagine that they could takeover the entire world," he said. "They threw themselves, their people and their nation into a sea of fire from which they are uselessly trying to secure themselves." bin Laden


Dear Ladderwell
You have proven my point again. You can qoute Osama as good as you quote the Pravada line.
You always quote what our childern will have to fix. Well Dear Ladderwell if Osama and the left win we will not have to worry about our children because they will not be a live to fix it. The jihadists goal is to destroy any non belivers and that also includes any moderate muslims. If you would only pull the pravada line out long enough to see it might awaken you to the truth.
The one thing I do not have to do is google to get a photo or painting of your side's point of veiw I see it in the pravada media all the time. The one thing I 'am proud of is standing against the pravada groups out here and wish I could join the group in washington that stand against the pravada group that protests every Friday nite in front of Walter Reed Hospital in front of our wounded troops that get to go out for dinner on Fridays with their familes.
Not knowing where you are I almost could see you standing with the anti troop group in front of the hospital just giving our troops the rasberry that you always give on here.

I respectfully give you one of these :p

To all others I give you this:D

[jinelson]

I could have sworn that this thread was about Murtha before our brother Ladderwell et al decided that it was one more oppritunity to bash and trash the Bush administration and our efforts against those who attacked us on 9-11. I dont appreciate it on this date especially and I will make it a point to return your disrespect on your special day come May 1st 2007. Ladderwell I dont believe for a second that you are ashamed of your name, I do however believe that you are afraid as all trolls are that it could lead to you being found out to be something that you either are or are not. At any rate Im sure that at some point that either Code Pink will reward you with honors like they did Mecca Murtha or you may become Al Jazeeras Man Of The Year but you will never fool the mainstream a bit.

Peace by appeasement and socialism - FREAKING NEVER!

[10thzodiac]

Dear Ladderwell
You have proven my point again. You can qoute Osama as good as you quote the Pravada line.
You always quote what our childern will have to fix. Well Dear Ladderwell if Osama and the left win we will not have to worry about our children because they will not be a live to fix it. The jihadists goal is to destroy any non belivers and that also includes any moderate muslims. If you would only pull the pravada line out long enough to see it might awaken you to the truth.
The one thing I do not have to do is google to get a photo or painting of your side's point of veiw I see it in the pravada media all the time. The one thing I 'am proud of is standing against the pravada groups out here and wish I could join the group in washington that stand against the pravada group that protests every Friday nite in front of Walter Reed Hospital in front of our wounded troops that get to go out for dinner on Fridays with their familes.
Not knowing where you are I almost could see you standing with the anti troop group in front of the hospital just giving our troops the rasberry that you always give on here.

I respectfully give you one of these :p

To all others I give you this:D

003XXMarineDAD in my opinion, you do not sound like a loving father to me, because no father would really put his son in harms way and be proud of that. Are you sure you are who you say you are instead of some right wing fascist agent of the political right wing industrial/military complex that Eisenhower warned us about in his speech?

I already lectured my son tonight about letting his 3-year-old son play with toy soldiers. That is where cannon fodder starts. My Marine grandfather WIA suicide WW I, my Army father PTSD WW II, and his Army first cousin KIA WW II. Me, by the skin of my teeth I was lucky compared to them Cuba October 1962 and Vietnam '64 and Dominican Republic '65.

Yes, I had orders to go to the Dominican Republic 1965 along with WO Lee (22-year veteran) from Service Battalion Camp Lejeune N.C., but I was too short and refused to sign a wavier to go, WO Lee was killed by a sniper the first day, leaving his wife and young children. My daughter was almost 1 year old then. I'm no fool!

Can't you see the Arabs are only giving us payback for our support of Israel, our misguided politics and military?

And if you really have this son your so proud of, bring him back before he gets his legs blown off for nothing by a mine with a Motorola chip, just like Chesty's boy did in Vietnam. However, this time an Italian made land mine made with GE components that were sold to Egypt then to Saddam.

Those who forget history repeat it. Well you know what agent of the right, it is not going to be my grandchildren, it is going to be yours that are going to be the Rich Men’s fools next time.

WTF, right now Dick Cheney according to this past Sundays political talk on TV network news, he is in opposition to UN sanctions on Iran, LMFAO Halliburton stands to loose money if that happens, while you sacrifice your son.

003XXMarineDAD, are you are a fool?

Wake up and let us start healing America with not what is wrong in America but with what is right in America while your alleged son still has his legs.

10thzodiac<O:p

[10thzodiac]

A badge of honor thank you.

Good night :p

[yellowwing]

Don't mess with family. Even a predator like John Gotti understood that.

[10thzodiac]

Don't mess with family. Even a predator like John Gotti understood that.

Bring it on!

[yellowwing]

LMAO
Now that is classy and funny as hell. KUDOS and Bravo Zulu.

[10thzodiac]

LMAO
Now that is classy and funny as hell. KUDOS and Bravo Zulu.

My daughter has lunch with the Mafia Princess Sam Giancana daughter. Sam "Momo" Giancana, the Chicago gangster who helped put JFK in the White House. "One" her underworld acquaintances is Al Capone Jr, no sh*t that's his real name. She has ran with that bunch for a long time and they were always packing and they still keep in touch.

How's that for family?

[OLE SARG]

Damn ms ladderwell I didn't ask for a sermon!!!!! First off, with your views I would not consider you a brother. AND don't talk to me about half-cocked, ye who is going off half-cocked!! Speaking of cocky fools!!!
You lean so far to the left it is a wonder you can walk.
MarineDad - we know which picture lefty ladderwell would fit in. It is amazing what a little education does to some people, it tends to lean them to the left.
Talk about Republicans, what in the hell does the democrats have to offer? ms jane fonda kerry who says he will negotiate with the terrorists, YEA RIGHT!! Or pelosi, God's gift to lesbians. Or swimmer kennedy, God's gift to alcohol. Or dirty harry, God's nut. Or john dean, a bigger nut, etc.
For the BS you are putting out, I think I am being very respectful and courteous. And don't act stupid, which you do very well, over the topic which you, in all your eloquence, started.
Finally, as far as your instructions on what to do before replying, please keep your advice to yourself!!! See, I referred to #1!!!!

SEMPER FI,

[10thzodiac]

They fall off?

[Mike McIntyre]

Bla, bla, bla, as we all drink the Kool~ aid.<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
The problem with the Republicans is that they forgot who got them elected.<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
The problem with Democrats is that, “They don’t Care!!!”<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
Vote the bums out, hold them ALL accountable, and if they cannot get it accomplished in two terms they NEED TO GO!!!!

[10thzodiac]

Marine Gen. Charles Wilhelm, headman for all our troops South of the Rio Grande, told Congress our forces haven't been able to tame the natives in Haiti and the longer they're stuck in that strife-torn swamp, the more they're at risk. He advocated yanking our troops and writing off the $6 billion "meals-on-wheels" mission as a failure.

Compare that to Iraq. Haiti shares half an Island with the Dominican Republic and *Marine General Charles Wilhelm says we can't tame the natives in Haiti, duh what are we going to do with 323 million Arabs, 23 million which are Iraqis?

* http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=18427

[outlaw3179]

So now its gone from Murtha , to Bush to now ...you watch too much f*cking Sopranos. WTF Over?

[jinelson]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v660/jinelson/085b14f1e2.jpg

[Mike McIntyre]

:thumbup:

[yellowwing]

Bahh, its not the terrorists Liberals fear. we got the guns to deal with them. Its the Government. Do you really want to trust a policitican with unlimited power?

A Govt with Ted Kennedy with no checks and balances. You trust Teddy that much? So you got to structure a Govt that prevents Ted, or any other politician from tyranny.

[Mike McIntyre]

Yellowing:<O:p></O:p>
<O:p></O:p>
I don’t trust any of them. Why not:<O:p></O:p>
Ø Have term limits (2)<O:p></O:p>
Ø Increase the Representatives to 4 year terms (so they are not always running & lying) <O:p></O:p>
Ø Have a line item veto – So they can’t slip something in<O:p></O:p>
Ø Make it cheaper to run – so you don’t have to be rich to win<O:p></O:p>

[10thzodiac]

THE OLDEST MILITARY TREATISE IN THE WORLD


By persistently hanging on the enemy's flank, we shall
succeed in the long run in killing the commander-in-chief.

This is called ability to accomplish a thing
by sheer cunning.

If fighting is sure to result in victory,
then you must fight, even though the ruler forbid it;
if fighting will not result in victory, then you must not
fight even at the ruler's bidding.

[jinelson]

We may have guns now but if the left wing libs get elected and have their way they will even further legislate to where it is impossible to purchase or possess. The libs have already succeeded in registration so the government knows which homes to go to when their utopian dream of no firearms`comes. Remember to thank Pelosi, Boxer, Fienstien and Kennedy when election day comes.

[FistFu68]

:usmc: 'NUMBAAAAAAA-10;I WASN'T EVEN TALKING ABOUT YOU;A LITTLE JUMPY THERE??? :usmc: OR DID SHE JAP SLAP YOU TOO HARD!:D

[10thzodiac]

:usmc: 'NUMBAAAAAAA-10;I WASN'T EVEN TALKING ABOUT YOU;A LITTLE JUMPY THERE??? :usmc: OR DID SHE JAP SLAP YOU TOO HARD!:D


Check out my profile


One thing about the Mrs, she is a princess, I'm glad I didn't marry an empty headed American girl! Never have to worry about her sleeping around. Waits on me hand and foot, can you say that?

Both her grandfathers are Samurai.

Quit calling my wife a Jap hiding behind a mouse or I will turn my little samurai loose on you, then you wish you were a Marine deeper than your tattoo! You do know what sashimi is, don't you?

[outlaw3179]

ok....this thread has now turned stupid. Take it to PMs. Nothing wrong with discussion, You are Marines act like it.

[thedrifter]

ok....this thread has now turned stupid. Take it to PMs. Nothing wrong with discussion, You are Marines act like it.


Thank You Outlaw....

best words I heard all day

Ellie

[yellowwing]

ok....this thread has now turned stupid. Take it to PMs. Nothing wrong with discussion, You are Marines act like it.
Yes, its been around the bend and then back around several times.