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fontman
08-15-06, 08:05 AM
Former SEAL wages campaign to defeat Murtha <br />
By William H. McMichael <br />
Marine Corps Times Staff writer <br />
<br />
Once together in uniform, still countrymen, but now on opposite sides of the fence: a Marine...

OLE SARG
08-15-06, 09:27 AM
AGAIN, I say, ms murtha needs to get back to his rest home. His elephant mouth is always overloading his hummingbird ass!!!!!!

SEMPER FI,

Osotogary
08-15-06, 09:34 AM
OLE SARGE-
Have you ever thought about writing a book of "Inspirational Sayings"?

"His elephant mouth is always overloading his hummingbird ass!!!!!!"

Priceless, absolutely priceless. LMAO

Ladderwell
08-15-06, 10:02 PM
Mr. Murtha is entitled to his opinion, just as is everyone. However, in terms of &quot;Semper Fidelis,&quot; my understanding of the phrase means &quot;Always Faithful,&quot; how can we stab him in the back by...

003XXMarineDAD
08-15-06, 11:23 PM
Quote"The phrase that came to mind when I saw them do the injustice to Kerry was "Back stabbing mother....ers." For Marines, former or current, or poolees to climb on the anti-former Marine Murtha is reprehensible, disgusting, sickening."Quote"

The one point you missed was the back stabbing he done to our soldiers in Vietnam. The testimony he gave to the congress at that time damned all our soldiers as being barbaric killers.
Now as a father of a Marine over in Iraq now I will be damned if I would support the likes of John Kerry or John Murtha as being someone to trust. They have a agenda to make this another Vietnam. I see you were in during Vietnam , have you forgot how the soldiers were treated coming home from there at the time.
I will not stand and do nothing to keep that from happening again.
My son's service is noble and he joined knowing what this was and what could happen. To let the media nd the far left attack him and his brothers is not going to happen on My watch. I will defend them to the hilt.
I watch the so called hero's of the left attack our soliders just like they did in Vietnam and that is what disgusts me.
http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL1224/4509617/9507739/149200607.jpg

This is My Pride and joy doing what he wants to do serve his country.
I just wish the left would have pride in the ones serving as much as I do.

hrscowboy
08-16-06, 01:21 AM
Orahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh Marine Dad i couldnt have said it better and yes L/cpl ladderwell i am a combat vet of the Vietnam War.

jinelson
08-16-06, 01:25 AM
Mr. Murtha is entitled to his opinion, just as is everyone. However, in terms of "Semper Fidelis," my understanding of the phrase means "Always Faithful," how can we stab him in the back by vilifying him? How can we lower ourselves to the same "lower than whale crap" anti-Kerry Swift-boaters who stabbed their shipmate in the back. The phrase that came to mind when I saw them do the injustice to Kerry was "Back stabbing mother....ers." For Marines, former or current, or poolees to climb on the anti-former Marine Murtha is reprehensible, disgusting, sickening.

BTW, what is a SEAL doing attacking one of our own? We should not be agreeing with him and running to the other side, but always rally round, and stand faithfully behind and with our own.

Murtha is trying to stop the unnecessary shedding of the blood of American soldiers, wrongfully and unjustifiably thrown into the firey pit of Iraq. Now that we're there, we've got to unscrew the damage we've done. Murtha's the point man leading us out or pointing the way out of harm's way. The point always takes the heat, but we should not desert him in battle.
*
Ladderwell

Semper Fidelis


If Murtha gets his right to an opinion then so do I and you got yours, so here's mine. WTF Ladderwell were you one of that traitor Kerry's VVAW admirers since you dont seem to have spent any time in country, but are an authority on it? In all of your liberal higher education did you ever hear of a North Vietnamese General named Vo Nguyen Giap? He is the guy that lead there armed forces against us. He wrote a book and in it he says that they owe their defeat of the United States to breaking the will of the American people by division of them on the homefront. He also states that Jane Fonda and John Kerry are heros of the Peoples Republic for their service to them toward that end. Please almighty guru of truth go blow it up someone elses butt on a political website. We are at war and since your so intelligent you should know that its WWIII and we have been getting hammered since 1983 and only fought back after 9-11. I see the tactics deployed upon us in Vietnam being deployed again and even see the same rhetoric and heroes with their winning tactics and strategies. Marine I think that you have long forgotten the oath that you once swore, "I do solemnly swear to defend the constitution against all enemies foriegn and domestic" just like your defeatest heroes have.

Injustice to Kerry? I dont think so justice should have been a firing squad for treason in time of war or life in prison at hard labor as well as Hanoi Jane and their fellow travelers. Now we have a new agent Ms Murtha and it will be interesting to see how your leftest media portrays his demise from truth in the future. Thanks again for allowing me to express my divergent opinion and in appreciation I would like to give you a gift of a Hanoi Jane Memorial Urinal print.


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v660/jinelson/pee-jane.jpg

Semper Fi

Jim

hrscowboy
08-16-06, 03:09 AM
quick break out the popcorn extra butter on mine please and a budwieser

OLE SARG
08-16-06, 08:51 AM
WELL SAID MARINEDAD & JINELSON!!!!! Ladderwell, I can't believe you don't remember ms kerry's antics involving the Iwo Monument and some of his other ridiculous claims about US MARINES IN VIETNAM. kerry is a piece of ****!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! murtha is right down there with him!!!!!!!!!!!!! My opinion, if you don't like it, eat **** and die!!!!!!! Those who would embrace and kiss the asses of these two FIT IN THE SAME CATEGORY!!!!!!!!

I guess I fit the bill for, "reprehensible, disgusting, sickening".


SEMPER FI,

jinelson
08-16-06, 11:52 AM
by Amazon Books - Gen. Giap planned and directed the military operations against the French that culminated in their defeat at the Battle of Dien Bien Phu in 1954. During the 1960's Giap controlled guerrilla operations against South Vietnam and the United States and planned the Tet Offensive of 1968. In his book, Giap clearly indicated that NVA troops were without sufficient supplies, and had been continually defeated time and again. By 1968, NVA morale was at it's lowest point ever. The plans for "Tet" '68 was their last desperate attempt to achieve a success, in an effort to boost the NVA morale. When it was over, General Giap and the NVA viewed the Tet '68 offensive as a failure, they were on their knees and had prepared to negotiate a surrender. At that time, there were fewer than 10,000 U.S. casualties, the Vietnam War was about to end, as the NVA was prepared to accept their defeat. Then, they heard Walter Cronkite (former CBS News anchor and correspondent) on TV proclaiming the success of the Tet '68 offensive by the communist NVA. They were completely and totally amazed at hearing that the US Embassy had been overrun. In reality, The NVA had not gained access to the Embassy--there were some VC who had been killed on the grassy lawn, but they hadn't gained access. Further reports indicated the riots and protesting on the streets of America. According to Giap, these distorted reports were inspirational to the NVA. They changed their plans from a negotiated surrender and decided instead, they only needed to persevere for one more hour, day, week, month, eventually the protesters in America would help them to achieve a victory they knew they could not win on the battlefield. Remember, this decision was made at a time when the U.S. casualties were fewer than 10,000, at the end of 1967, beginning of 1968.


The same winning strategy to victory in the War On Terrorism is being waged against us today!

Ladderwell
08-16-06, 11:23 PM
Quote"The phrase that came to mind when I saw them do the injustice to Kerry was "Back stabbing mother....ers." For Marines, former or current, or poolees to climb on the anti-former Marine Murtha is reprehensible, disgusting, sickening."Quote"

The one point you missed was the back stabbing he done to our soldiers in Vietnam. The testimony he gave to the congress at that time damned all our soldiers as being barbaric killers.
Now as a father of a Marine over in Iraq now I will be damned if I would support the likes of John Kerry or John Murtha as being someone to trust. They have a agenda to make this another Vietnam. I see you were in during Vietnam , have you forgot how the soldiers were treated coming home from there at the time.
I will not stand and do nothing to keep that from happening again.
My son's service is noble and he joined knowing what this was and what could happen. To let the media nd the far left attack him and his brothers is not going to happen on My watch. I will defend them to the hilt.
I watch the so called hero's of the left attack our soliders just like they did in Vietnam and that is what disgusts me.
http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL1224/4509617/9507739/149200607.jpg

This is My Pride and joy doing what he wants to do serve his country.
I just wish the left would have pride in the ones serving as much as I do.

Because of the incompetencies of the present administration, our children, grandchildren, greatgrandchildren, and countless people who have yet to be born will have to fight to put the devils unleashed and by the Pandora's Box of the wrongful and deceitful, as well as pig-headed and hot-headed, selfish agenda of the Right. This administration stated that we had to invade Iraq to prevent their WMD program from getting off the ground. Surprise! No WMDs. The administration then said it was for the war on terror. I'll bet there weren't a dozen nitwits in Iraq with terror on their minds. Saddam had them all under his thumb, and the fear of God was placed in them. They had ZERO to do with 9/11, but we sure did "create 10,000 Osama Bin Ladens," and in the face of Europe's 1350 years of contending with Islam, and the experience that went with it. Duh!

Another example of the model is Marshal Tito in Yugoslavia, who ruled with an iron hand to keep the lid on the box. When he died, the lid came off, and the region exploded. By knocking Saddam out of power, we essentially the same thing.

GW's dad told him not to go there because of no exit strategy. Cheney and Rumsfield, who wanted to topple Saddam during the first Gulf Way, and who had Bush Senior shut 'em down, took GW Jr. for a ride, and the whole country, for many generations to come. Islam has moderated since the beginning in 650, and although it began by the sword, more sane people wrestled with Islam to moderate it. History shows that it is calamaties like war that unleash it. It takes time and treasure, our children included, to put the genie back in the bottle.

Nam was going to go Communist regardless of our being there. We inserted ourselves in their anti-colonial civil war. The Communists represented the least worst alternative, and were the only vehicle to throw the colonialist occupiers out. The French were tossed after WWII, and for a very insightful look at things before we went in, The Siege At Dien Bien Phu (recommended to me by a Nam-wounded Marine Corps officer who said if he ever sees a war like Nam coming again, he will put his son on a train to Canada) is an extremely good and objective analysis of wrongheadedness by the French, who quit the country, and for us, who essentially grabbed an anchor falling overboard. I do not fault John Kerry, a Silver Star hero with a couple of Purple Hearts, who had enough deeper education and perspective about the bigger picture, and who did what he could to stop more bloodshed. Murtha is doing the same, to try put the brakes on, and begin the turnaround of the damage we have done to ourselves, and those who come after.

I have skin in the game too, including flesh and blood with a Purple Heart from Iraq. I have had my students in many phases of going there, are there, and who have come back, from every conflict since Somalia. We have the responsibility to protect and defend the constitution, especially when in uniform, when it is more of obeying orders. As former military people, we have the experience and sacred responsibility to make certain we do not give our children knuckleheaded leaders. I've influenced my students to be good citizens, and many of them have chosen the military. These precious warriors, this treasure, is not going to be misused if I can help it.

I look at my 8 month old grandson and can already envision him in some hellhole brought about by this administration's arrogance, and the ignorance of people who stopped learning about the world when they got out of high school. I fear for our country, and pray that our citizens learn the hard lessons the easy way vs. the "well, we've tried everything else and it failed, and the only option remaining is the right thing to do."

Saw a quote a couple of months ago: "You'd better watch what you do, or we'll bring democracy to your country too." What has happened to the American values we were brought up with; fairness, level-headedness, truth, justice, prudence, honor. I've never felt shame at beign American. I never thought it could happen, until this administration's actions heaped it upon me.

In order to begin the beginning of turning things around, as much as people may dislike people who are disagreeable, they point the way out of Hell. I'd follow Kerry or Murtha out of Hell. They've proved their worth.

Sincerely and respectfully,

God speed to you and yours.
Ladderwell

Ladderwell
08-16-06, 11:24 PM
Quote"The phrase that came to mind when I saw them do the injustice to Kerry was "Back stabbing mother....ers." For Marines, former or current, or poolees to climb on the anti-former Marine Murtha is reprehensible, disgusting, sickening."Quote"

The one point you missed was the back stabbing he done to our soldiers in Vietnam. The testimony he gave to the congress at that time damned all our soldiers as being barbaric killers.
Now as a father of a Marine over in Iraq now I will be damned if I would support the likes of John Kerry or John Murtha as being someone to trust. They have a agenda to make this another Vietnam. I see you were in during Vietnam , have you forgot how the soldiers were treated coming home from there at the time.
I will not stand and do nothing to keep that from happening again.
My son's service is noble and he joined knowing what this was and what could happen. To let the media nd the far left attack him and his brothers is not going to happen on My watch. I will defend them to the hilt.
I watch the so called hero's of the left attack our soliders just like they did in Vietnam and that is what disgusts me.
http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL1224/4509617/9507739/149200607.jpg

This is My Pride and joy doing what he wants to do serve his country.
I just wish the left would have pride in the ones serving as much as I do.

Because of the incompetencies of the present administration, our children, grandchildren, greatgrandchildren, and countless people who have yet to be born will have to fight to put the devils unleashed and by the Pandora's Box of the wrongful and deceitful, as well as pig-headed and hot-headed, selfish agenda of the Right. This administration stated that we had to invade Iraq to prevent their WMD program from getting off the ground. Surprise! No WMDs. The administration then said it was for the war on terror. I'll bet there weren't a dozen nitwits in Iraq with terror on their minds. Saddam had them all under his thumb, and the fear of God was placed in them. They had ZERO to do with 9/11, but we sure did "create 10,000 Osama Bin Ladens," and in the face of Europe's 1350 years of contending with Islam, and the experience that went with it. Duh!

Another example of the model is Marshal Tito in Yugoslavia, who ruled with an iron hand to keep the lid on the box. When he died, the lid came off, and the region exploded. By knocking Saddam out of power, we essentially the same thing.

GW's dad told him not to go there because of no exit strategy. Cheney and Rumsfield, who wanted to topple Saddam during the first Gulf Way, and who had Bush Senior shut 'em down, took GW Jr. for a ride, and the whole country, for many generations to come. Islam has moderated since the beginning in 650, and although it began by the sword, more sane people wrestled with Islam to moderate it. History shows that it is calamaties like war that unleash it. It takes time and treasure, our children included, to put the genie back in the bottle.

Nam was going to go Communist regardless of our being there. We inserted ourselves in their anti-colonial civil war. The Communists represented the least worst alternative, and were the only vehicle to throw the colonialist occupiers out. The French were tossed after WWII, and for a very insightful look at things before we went in, The Siege At Dien Bien Phu (recommended to me by a Nam-wounded Marine Corps officer who said if he ever sees a war like Nam coming again, he will put his son on a train to Canada) is an extremely good and objective analysis of wrongheadedness by the French, who quit the country, and for us, who essentially grabbed an anchor falling overboard. I do not fault John Kerry, a Silver Star hero with a couple of Purple Hearts, who had enough deeper education and perspective about the bigger picture, and who did what he could to stop more bloodshed. Murtha is doing the same, to try put the brakes on, and begin the turnaround of the damage we have done to ourselves, and those who come after.

I have skin in the game too, including flesh and blood with a Purple Heart from Iraq. I have had my students in many phases of going there, are there, and who have come back, from every conflict since Somalia. We have the responsibility to protect and defend the constitution, especially when in uniform, when it is more of obeying orders. As former military people, we have the experience and sacred responsibility to make certain we do not give our children knuckleheaded leaders. I've influenced my students to be good citizens, and many of them have chosen the military. These precious warriors, this treasure, is not going to be misused if I can help it.

I look at my 8 month old grandson and can already envision him in some hellhole brought about by this administration's arrogance, and the ignorance of people who stopped learning about the world when they got out of high school. I fear for our country, and pray that our citizens learn the hard lessons the easy way vs. the "well, we've tried everything else and it failed, and the only option remaining is the right thing to do."

Saw a quote a couple of months ago: "You'd better watch what you do, or we'll bring democracy to your country too." What has happened to the American values we were brought up with; fairness, level-headedness, truth, justice, prudence, honor. I've never felt shame at beign American. I never thought it could happen, until this administration's actions heaped it upon me.

In order to begin the beginning of turning things around, as much as people may dislike people who are disagreeable, they point the way out of Hell. I'd follow Kerry or Murtha out of Hell. They've proved their worth.

Sincerely and respectfully,

God speed to you and yours.
Ladderwell

Ladderwell
08-16-06, 11:25 PM
Orahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh Marine Dad i couldnt have said it better and yes L/cpl ladderwell i am a combat vet of the Vietnam War.

Dear hrscowboy,

Thank you for your service to our country. Am glad you made it.
*
Ladderwell

Ladderwell
08-16-06, 11:40 PM
If Murtha gets his right to an opinion then so do I and you got yours, so here's mine. WTF Ladderwell were you one of that traitor Kerry's VVAW admirers since you dont seem to have spent any time in country, but are an authority on it? In all of your liberal higher education did you ever hear of a North Vietnamese General named Vo Nguyen Giap? He is the guy that lead there armed forces against us. He wrote a book and in it he says that they owe their defeat of the United States to breaking the will of the American people by division of them on the homefront. He also states that Jane Fonda and John Kerry are heros of the Peoples Republic for their service to them toward that end. Please almighty guru of truth go blow it up someone elses butt on a political website. We are at war and since your so intelligent you should know that its WWIII and we have been getting hammered since 1983 and only fought back after 9-11. I see the tactics deployed upon us in Vietnam being deployed again and even see the same rhetoric and heroes with their winning tactics and strategies. Marine I think that you have long forgotten the oath that you once swore, "I do solemnly swear to defend the constitution against all enemies foriegn and domestic" just like your defeatest heroes have.

Injustice to Kerry? I dont think so justice should have been a firing squad for treason in time of war or life in prison at hard labor as well as Hanoi Jane and their fellow travelers. Now we have a new agent Ms Murtha and it will be interesting to see how your leftest media portrays his demise from truth in the future. Thanks again for allowing me to express my divergent opinion and in appreciation I would like to give you a gift of a Hanoi Jane Memorial Urinal print.


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v660/jinelson/pee-jane.jpg

Semper Fi

Jim

Dear Jim,

When we were in, being Gung Ho was the only way to be. We had to be fully commited. Anything else would have been treasonous or suicidal. In that, I agree. When we took off our uniforms, we put on the uniform of citizen, not soldier. With that came a greater responsiblity. I take my hat off for those brave enought to stand up for what they thought was right, even in the face of advesity, some of which has lasted a lifetime. I do the same for those who do it today. It's too darn bad they were and are right. Our children suffer the consequences...and our children's children, and so on..will also suffer.

What can we do today to begin making things better? Push more war, incite brothers to turn against brothers? I'm for less bloodshed and working towards unscrewing the mess. More of us have stand together to yell "FIRE" when one exists, shout it from the hilltops if necessary to get people to lift their heads, hearts, and minds to a better way other than to dig in our heals and elect more warlords of special interests, or a president who wouldn't even listen to the wisdom of his father, a decorated war veteran like Kerry and Murtha, who has also "been there, done that," and who had knowledge to pass along, but fell on deaf ears.

So, what can we do? Engage in progressive dialog to move towards greater understanding? That's what we are doing here. Should we try to get a view of the bigger picture, and vote in an administration that can begin to get the genie back in the bottle? If we take the "cowboy" out of the equation when making our decisions, and focus on what will be better for us all, especially out children, etc., we can have a stronger and safer country and world.

Respectfully,
Ladderwell
Semper Fidelis

jinelson
08-16-06, 11:44 PM
YEs sir I will tell my son to raise the white flag and cut and run, yes you bet I will not.
I would hope you supported your skin in the game , but if it was like what you are putting on here,it is not worth much.
I truely wonder if there is anything the left would be willing to fight for other then to gain a seat in the house or senate just so the can Impeach the President. The more they cut and run and attack the ones that are for a strong Military, I just want to go out and hug the living crap out of them.

Ladderwell
08-16-06, 11:48 PM
The same winning strategy to victory in the War On Terrorism is being waged against us today!

Giap and Ho Chi Minh defeated the French colonials. We stepped into their losing shoes as soon as they di-di'd. When we left, history repeated itself. The present administration behaves as if they never picked up a history book.

One of the amazing things with this war, is that the State Department had prepared a plan for managing Iraq after the capitulation. This was the same thing that the State Department did for Germany and Japan, both occupations turned out reasonably okay. This administration said "We don't need it, refused it, and the troubles that resulted are splashed in blood all over Baghdad today.

*
Respectfully,
Ladderwell
SF

Ladderwell
08-16-06, 11:50 PM
WELL SAID MARINEDAD & JINELSON!!!!! Ladderwell, I can't believe you don't remember ms kerry's antics involving the Iwo Monument and some of his other ridiculous claims about US MARINES IN VIETNAM. kerry is a piece of ****!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! murtha is right down there with him!!!!!!!!!!!!! My opinion, if you don't like it, eat **** and die!!!!!!! Those who would embrace and kiss the asses of these two FIT IN THE SAME CATEGORY!!!!!!!!

I guess I fit the bill for, "reprehensible, disgusting, sickening".


SEMPER FI,

Sorry Sarge, if we don't "get it," millions die.
*
Ladderwell
SF

Ladderwell
08-16-06, 11:58 PM
YEs sir I will tell my son to raise the white flag and cut and run, yes you bet I will not.
I would hope you supported your skin in the game , but if it was like what you are putting on here,it is not worth much.
I truely wonder if there is anything the left would be willing to fight for other then to gain a seat in the house or senate just so the can Impeach the President. The more they cut and run and attack the ones that are for a strong Military, I just want to go out and hug the living crap out of them.

I'm sorry you feel the need to insult my "skin in the game." My family members and my students have been good warriors...and good citizens, from one side of the world to the other. There was no need for that.

I fully support our troops. Part of that support is to help shape a competent government who will not abuse our military resources, waste our treasure, and cause damage that will last for 300 years.

The Bible says that there is a time for everything under heaven. What is it time for now? Building up or tearing down?

Respectfully,
Ladderwell
SF

iamcloudlander
08-17-06, 04:32 AM
Ladderwell
until I read what you have been writing I had almost put the vietnam war behind me logged it into the deepest part of my memory.
But it all came back with a rush as I could visualize those long ago long haired hippies spouting the same sort of garbage as you are now spouting. I remember coming home from Vietnam and being spat on at the San Francisco bus station and the names we were called I would not call another human being I remember the hurt and pain we had to endure as we were not welcome at many places outside the base.
Yes I paid the ultimate price as I escorted two brothers home from Nam 1 Marine 1 Army and I am sure they did not regret giving their lives for this country because they to felt as if what they were doing there was right because they and many more did the same so that people like you can now stand up and say how bad this country is. It hasn't changed a lot since the 60's yes we have lost a lot of priveleges because of people that think like you I suppose you would prefer that the Monroe doctrine be re-instated and we stay home and let the terrorists bring the war to our doorsteps. We by bringing down Sadam did not awaken 10,000 they were there all the time doing exactly what they are doing now. These people have been fighting for thousands of years and just as the Vietnamese do not mind dying as long as they can take as many of us as they can.
According to your Serial # from the time I was given my serial number 469,760 men joined the Marine Corps to fight in Vietnam were they all wrong to?
If I felt as commited to "helping shapeing a competent government" as you I think I would pick a different forum than this as the people that are reading your comments remember they are or were Marines and I would imagine that they do not appreciate your taking up space here with your anti-war comments.
There is a place and time for your comments this is not it.

rb1651
08-17-06, 12:23 PM
Well said, JT.

As a Marine, it didn't matter if I liked what the current Adminstration was doing or not. If they said to go somewhere and do something, it was done because that is what was expected of me. I signed the contract, I took the oath to obey the lawful orders of the Commander in Chief and his designates, and I did so with pride and commitment.

Welcome Home, JT, and thank you and all of our combat veterans for everything that they have done and will continue to do because you and they have the Pride, Honor, and Integrity to rise above what is asked of ordinary citizens.

003XXMarineDAD
08-17-06, 01:20 PM
Quote" I'm sorry you feel the need to insult my "skin in the game." My family members and my students have been good warriors...and good citizens, from one side of the world to the other. There was no need for that."Quote

If anyone should be insulted it should be me. I have a son and many of his fellow brothers and sisters over in Iraq now. It really ****es me off how high and mighty your posts are but when it is pointed out that the support you are giving in your posts is not productiive to the morale and well being of the troops. YOU feel insulted well to bad.
I have stood on corners with support our troops signs and have had the anti-war one's come over and express the desire to have my son come home in a box just so they can have their points made valid.
:mad:

I have taken this and listen to their vile crap for over five years here. This group started protesting two weeks after 9/11/01. I have been tolerant of this but it is getting to much. I get my information from other sources then the main stream media. I do see the good we are doing and that is a threat to your little DNC talking points.
One thing is having boots on the ground over there I do get the parts the media does not put in their reporting.
The main stream media has a saying if it bleeds it leads and if it does not do'nt report it.
The Iraqi Army and Police are getting better in the area where my son is and the schools are up and running and they are getting services that they have not had in many years.These are some of the things you will not hear or see from the media or the DNC.
I will never change your veiw point and you will never change mine. I have learned over the last years that the hate of Bush out weighs the love of country by some. That is the shame of this.

6yrforMar
08-17-06, 02:00 PM
All these cut & run Dems.,Cindy Sheehans,J.Murtha don`t relize these Islamofascists will put their heads on a stick,just as fast as they could .You cannot win with these wackos if our government is run by these gutless dogooders.These dummies don`t know we in the civilized world are fighting World War 3 right now!

jinelson
08-17-06, 02:03 PM
Why did ya sugar coat it 6yrforMar? Tell us how ya really feel lmao ;)

Ladderwell
08-19-06, 09:58 PM
Ladderwell
until I read what you have been writing I had almost put the vietnam war behind me logged it into the deepest part of my memory.
But it all came back with a rush as I could visualize those long ago long haired hippies spouting the same sort of garbage as you are now spouting. I remember coming home from Vietnam and being spat on at the San Francisco bus station and the names we were called I would not call another human being I remember the hurt and pain we had to endure as we were not welcome at many places outside the base.
Yes I paid the ultimate price as I escorted two brothers home from Nam 1 Marine 1 Army and I am sure they did not regret giving their lives for this country because they to felt as if what they were doing there was right because they and many more did the same so that people like you can now stand up and say how bad this country is. It hasn't changed a lot since the 60's yes we have lost a lot of priveleges because of people that think like you I suppose you would prefer that the Monroe doctrine be re-instated and we stay home and let the terrorists bring the war to our doorsteps. We by bringing down Sadam did not awaken 10,000 they were there all the time doing exactly what they are doing now. These people have been fighting for thousands of years and just as the Vietnamese do not mind dying as long as they can take as many of us as they can.
According to your Serial # from the time I was given my serial number 469,760 men joined the Marine Corps to fight in Vietnam were they all wrong to?
If I felt as commited to "helping shapeing a competent government" as you I think I would pick a different forum than this as the people that are reading your comments remember they are or were Marines and I would imagine that they do not appreciate your taking up space here with your anti-war comments.
There is a place and time for your comments this is not it.

Cloudlander,

Of the thousands of Nam vets I've spoken with, one has told me he was called names in SF (Treasure Island?), and I've only heard hearsay about anyone being spat upon. Also, I never heard of any "long hair hippies (Christ? Washington? Jefferson?) having their heads ripped off and po'd vets spitting down their necks. That is not what Kerry did, though I do agree that there were a lot of loose cannons around back then. Kerry was just trying to stop the unnecessary carnage.

The Monroe Doctrine was an attempt to keep foreign influence out of the Western Hemisphere. I never stated or believed that we should be Protectionists, an outgrowth of that doctrine, as we are part of a global village, and all are citizens of the same world. I fully believe that post 9/11 we had to take it to the Islamic fundamentalists, whereever they may be, and kill the active ones, but also to solve the problem in the long term (the whole "hearts and minds thing.")

The US had the majority of the world on our side because of the 9/11 attack. The Bush JR administration had Cheney and Rumsfield pulling the president's strings because he wasn't bright enough, and certainly not wise enough to stand up to these two, as his father had during the first Gulf War. Back then Bush SR said "NO" to Cheney and Rumsfield who wanted to go in and topple Saddam. Anyone who has studied the history of that part of the world over the past 1350 years knows that Bush SR's decision was the absolutely correct one.

When the idea of invading Iraq to topple Saddam came up again, Bush SR told his son "NO," and the majority of the rest of the world, the United Nations and many powerful countries, including those in Europe (who have 1350 years experience dealing with the Arab world), and 5,000 year old civilizations like China said "NO," Bush JR said "Uhhhhh, we're gonna do it anyway." The likes of Cheney and Rumsfield, and poor dope Bush even scr*wed General Powell, who was a proven good military leader, tried to toe the line, and obey (moronic) orders, and has his wise input shut out of the decision-making process, eventually leading him to be thrown out his job, leaving the lunatics running the asylum.

The history of radical Islam is one of containment and eruption, containment and eruption. The radicals have always been there, but the moderates have worked to contain them over the centuries. It was only as a result of cataclysms that unlease the fundamentalists on the world...like a war. Post 9/11 the moderate muslims were on the uptick. The Arab world was on our side. The US had been wronged, innocents perished, those "10,000 Osama Bin Ladens," ONLY created since the US's ill-conceived invasion of Iraq, came from the ranks of the less moderate muslims and the radicals who were radical in rhetoric only,and leading the pack is those who pulled the terrorist jobs in the past. The current administration has squandered the goodwill felt towards the post 9/11 US. With the cowboy invasion of a country NOT GUILTY of having WMDs or having any link to Terrorism, we have handed the radicals their next 300 year old run of growth.

I personally do not believe that being a warmonger, a vicious warrior, or an unleashed Devil Dog, being freed to attack, and go as far as we can to kill the problem (impossible), or solve the problem (we need to get the moderates to be on the rise again). If it is all "fight, fight, fight," we'd better pace ourselves, because this administration has handed us a 300 year war. Lots of brothers, sisters, children, grandchildren, great grandchildren, and great-great grandchildren are regrettably going to be escorted home.

Touching base on Nam, I do not want to answer the "were they all wrong" question. I joined in '69, because as 19-year old kid, I trusted my government to be doing the right thing over there, and obeyed every order I was given. I denied that there was anything wrong with my decision to volunteer, the hundreds of thousands of others who did the same, and denied my country's decision to be involved. After it was all over, I have remained a good student of the war and the historical and political causes of that war. What I learned from speaking with Nam vets, reading non-fiction analytical studies of the the war was unsettling. I'll always deny that my (or our) motivations for joining were wrong, always. That is what patriots did back then. We believed that we were doing the right thing. As citizens, not in the military today, we have a sacred responsibility to give our people in uniform good leaders. We have failed in the last 2 elections. Now we not only need to protect the toops better, but we also need to learn that we need to give the world a problem-solving administration, vs. a problem-fueling administration.

It is going to take a lot of work, and a lot of blood to get radical islam back into the bottle. Electing an administration we can trust to live up to their pledges of supporting the Constitution, and being wise stewards of the resources whe have placed at their disposal. Electing an administration the world can trust means that we need a new administration with wiser philosphies other than po'ing the planet.

Every forum is peopled by citizens. Everyone needs wise counsel. I do not profess to be perfectly correct, but I do know, that based on historical precedence, it is easy to predict the future, and it ain't pretty.

Sincerely,
Ladderwell
SF

Ladderwell
08-19-06, 10:04 PM
Well said, JT.

As a Marine, it didn't matter if I liked what the current Adminstration was doing or not. If they said to go somewhere and do something, it was done because that is what was expected of me. I signed the contract, I took the oath to obey the lawful orders of the Commander in Chief and his designates, and I did so with pride and commitment.

Welcome Home, JT, and thank you and all of our combat veterans for everything that they have done and will continue to do because you and they have the Pride, Honor, and Integrity to rise above what is asked of ordinary citizens.


rb1651,

Thank you for speaking up. Please remember that we all did what was expected of us during our time in uniform ("My country, right or wrong." or "You're going to jail, mf*r." Now we are out of uniform, and we have the repsonsibility to be good, studied, and learned, activist citizens, involved with creating a civilian government that will be best for our troops, and not waste their patriotism...or their lives.

This is something that no one needs to tell us to do. A study of history however, demands it of us.

Respectfully,
*
Ladderwell
SF!

Ladderwell
08-19-06, 10:25 PM
Quote" I'm sorry you feel the need to insult my "skin in the game." My family members and my students have been good warriors...and good citizens, from one side of the world to the other. There was no need for that."Quote

If anyone should be insulted it should be me. I have a son and many of his fellow brothers and sisters over in Iraq now. It really ****es me off how high and mighty your posts are but when it is pointed out that the support you are giving in your posts is not productiive to the morale and well being of the troops. YOU feel insulted well to bad.
I have stood on corners with support our troops signs and have had the anti-war one's come over and express the desire to have my son come home in a box just so they can have their points made valid.
:mad:

I have taken this and listen to their vile crap for over five years here. This group started protesting two weeks after 9/11/01. I have been tolerant of this but it is getting to much. I get my information from other sources then the main stream media. I do see the good we are doing and that is a threat to your little DNC talking points.
One thing is having boots on the ground over there I do get the parts the media does not put in their reporting.
The main stream media has a saying if it bleeds it leads and if it does not do'nt report it.
The Iraqi Army and Police are getting better in the area where my son is and the schools are up and running and they are getting services that they have not had in many years.These are some of the things you will not hear or see from the media or the DNC.
I will never change your veiw point and you will never change mine. I have learned over the last years that the hate of Bush out weighs the love of country by some. That is the shame of this.

003XXMarineDad,

It is important to remember that our troops in Iraq are NOT STUPID. They are an all volunteer force, and many of them are older, well-educated, have families, and are very well-informed. they know the real score. They are aware of the political decisions that caused them to be there. They just shake their heads when they hear someone is "behind them all the way because the cause is a just cause." They recognize truth, and telling them bald-faced non-truths is what really hurts their morale, because in hearing that, they see no end in sight, no end to the misery, the wounded, the death. They see no hope of unscrewing the mess they are in. They want to hear the truth. They are now not fighting for us, or a bigger cause, they want to protect their own, and come home alive.

I for one fully support our troops and their efforts to stay alive and come home. I will go to the mattresses against anyone who insults them or debases them in any way. I wish them all the firepower and protection to win the battle for life everyday. I do condem wrong-headed, knucklebrained decisionmakers who unapologically do whatever the heck they want to do in the face of reason, something they cannot recognize, and with an elected leader not smart or wise enough to understand history, the bigger picture, or what the rest of the world with 1350 years of experience with the Arabs.

History has shown that invaders, as in the Crusades, are typically merely a blip on the history of Isalm. All of the blood and all of the treasure spent here will all be forgotten in a couple of hundred years, and things will remain the same; religious governments, or strongman goverments or kingships to keep the radicals down. Why the waste?

Respectfully,
*
Ladderwell
SF

Ladderwell
08-19-06, 10:37 PM
tyrforMar, <br />
<br />
Cut and run? John Kerry did not cut and run when he earned his purple hearts and silver star. {Bush JR didn't even bother to show up for drill, while his father, Bush Sr, shot out of...

jinelson
08-19-06, 10:42 PM
by Ladderwell - Every forum is peopled by citizens. Everyone needs wise counsel. I do not profess to be perfectly correct, but I do know, that based on historical precedence, it is easy to predict the future, and it ain't pretty.

Well we finaly agree on something we can predict the future by historical precedence. I submit to you that the historical precedence that our current enemies are using is the liberal media slant and lie the situation for them and divide the American people scheme that worked for General Giap during Vietnam. Remember it was Nguyen Giap that said he was ready to through in the towel when our casualties were 10,000 KIA. But with the medias help and folks like Hanoi Jane and John he was able to hang on until our loses were 58,000 KIA and win South Vietnam. The same exact thing is happening today with the help of those like your self and Mecca Murtha that say they only want to save young Americans from being wasted needlessly. Americans will be wasted needlessly just like on 9-11 until all the muslim fanatics and the states that harbor and protect them have joined Ahlah. Your hatred for the the Bush administration clouds your vision, he at least has a plan to deal with those who want us all dead. To this day the only plan on the left is cut and run, so I will back my President. Bro why is it that all you higher educational elitists all sound just like Ward Churchill? Please bro one more time read General Nguyen Giaps words and tell me that you want to save uneeded bloodshed instead of aid an Islamic victory over us.


by General Nguyen Giap - In his book, Giap clearly indicated that NVA troops were without sufficient supplies, and had been continually defeated time and again. By 1968, NVA morale was at it's lowest point ever. The plans for "Tet" '68 was their last desperate attempt to achieve a success, in an effort to boost the NVA morale. When it was over, General Giap and the NVA viewed the Tet '68 offensive as a failure, they were on their knees and had prepared to negotiate a surrender. At that time, there were fewer than 10,000 U.S. casualties, the Vietnam War was about to end, as the NVA was prepared to accept their defeat. Then, they heard Walter Cronkite (former CBS News anchor and correspondent) on TV proclaiming the success of the Tet '68 offensive by the communist NVA. They were completely and totally amazed at hearing that the US Embassy had been overrun. In reality, The NVA had not gained access to the Embassy--there were some VC who had been killed on the grassy lawn, but they hadn't gained access. Further reports indicated the riots and protesting on the streets of America. According to Giap, these distorted reports were inspirational to the NVA. They changed their plans from a negotiated surrender and decided instead, they only needed to persevere for one more hour, day, week, month, eventually the protesters in America would help them to achieve a victory they knew they could not win on the battlefield. Remember, this decision was made at a time when the U.S. casualties were fewer than 10,000, at the end of 1967, beginning of 1968.

Semper Fi

Jim

Ladderwell
08-19-06, 11:06 PM
Good ole' Giap again. Okay. Giap was the leader of the NVA forces in Viet Nam. The people of Viet Nam were ready to listen to, and follow ANYBODY to get the French colonial government out of their...

greensideout
08-19-06, 11:22 PM
I have enjoyed reading the exchange of ideas. Just one problem. Ladderwell, where will we find the leader of a new administration that you refer to as the answer to world peace?

003XXMarineDAD
08-19-06, 11:46 PM
Quote" History has shown that invaders, as in the Crusades, are typically merely a blip on the history of Isalm. All of the blood and all of the treasure spent here will all be forgotten in a couple of hundred years, and things will remain the same; religious governments, or strongman goverments or kingships to keep the radicals down. Why the waste?" Quote

Well Ladderwell going by your thoughts and prospective we had all better start learning how to pray towards Mecca.
The people of Iraq have shown that they do want a chance at Freedom and some that are serving right now with my son are putting their lives on the line to try and give Democracy a chance. Yes their are problems but we had problems also getting a Republic started and we had to fight to get it and keep it.
The one thing that is true is that as long as we have a President that do'nt give a rats ass about polls and does the things that help give the Iraqis a chance to stand up as some are doing they might just do what the far left in the country hate, which is win and do it with honor.
The plan I have heard from the far left is to get rid of anyone that disagree with the ones that want to cut and run. The proof is look at what they done to Senator Joe Liberman he has had a hard stand against the cut and run crowd and the far left has done the job of destroying him and is now pushing this call all over the country.
I would say some of your heros would b be, Micheal Moore,George Sorros , Jane fonda , Susan Saradon, Al Franken, and such.
My heros are Lcpl. Di Camillo , Lcpl Parrish , Lcpl, Pigg, Lcpl Cramer, Lcpl Brewer, Lcpl. Seeley, Cpl Morrales, Cpl Quinions and many more that I could name all serving with honor and pride in what they are doing and have done.
If ones with no honor is the mainstream media and the DNC cut and runners.
I know how much this must pain you to be in their crowd being such a strong supporter of the troops. :bunny:

You have yours and I have mine.;)

ivalis
08-20-06, 06:36 AM
Like Viet Nam, there is no honor to be won.

Ladderwell
08-20-06, 01:05 PM
I have enjoyed reading the exchange of ideas. Just one problem. Ladderwell, where will we find the leader of a new administration that you refer to as the answer to world peace?

Greensideout,

The Republican administration is what has shaken the world's faith in the USA. It is not only the Iraq debaucle that has been observed, but alongside that has been the failure of the US to sign the Kyoto Agreement to try to manage the amount of carbon dioxide causing the now apparent runaway global warming that the world's children will inherit, the tax breaks mostly (~97%) benefiting the upper 3% of the US's population, the Inheritance Tax, brought about to prevent as much as possible, further concentration of a nation's wealth in the hands of a very few (Us citizens are being sold a bill of goods on this with the tax being called a "Death Tax"), the clipping of the EPA, taking away its teeth to fight pollution of our air, land and rivers, the relentless assault on the remaining pristine lands of the north to drill for oil (stealing from the US citizens who will need it in the future, all of which has been observed by us as citizens of the US, and by the majority of the rest of the world's citizens as well. We are citizens of the planet.

All of the above has been the actions of the Republican Party since they took over power back during Clinton's presidency. They had us focused on stains on Lewinsky's dress, and the fact that Clinton lied to keep the truth more from his wife than the American people. The Republican gameplan was to politically asassinate (sic) Clinton and Gore to enable them to get into the seats of power so they could run with their own agenda. They sold, and still sell, a bill of goods to enough interest groups in the country to win elections, retain the seats of power, and while throwing the interest groups a few bones, run wild with their own personal agenda of making the rich richer, the stronger stronger, and the powerful more powerful, not to mention the chance to "finish the job" of toppling Saddam now that Bush Senior was no longer in the way to stop them.

The answer to your question of "Where will we find a good leader?" is in one way simple, and another rather complex:

1. It cannot be a Republican. The US has lost its credibility in the eyes of the world. Condleza (sic) Rice, in the Mideast, was trying to help broker a ceasefire in southeren Lebanon. She presented the US's position while having a major, and continued loss of credibility on the world stage. Even if we were to elect another Republican administration, or a leader from the Repbulican party who had the ideal answers and all of the qualifications of being the needed leader to bring about world peace, it wouldn't work because the world has had enough of a Republican led US administration. Their "Ideal" solutions would fall on deaf ears. The bottom line is that it simply cannot be a Repbulican.

2. The complexities of the situation lie in us choosing not necessarily the best person for the job, but because of the extreme divisiveness grown in our country over the past six (6) years, the consensus will need to fall on the "least worse" leader, and because of present reality, the leader will have to come from the ranks of the Democratic party.

In my opinion, and I can most definitely be wrong, anyone who has run before and lost would probably lose again. This eliminates Kerry and Gore.

The guy from Chicago (I cannot clearly remember his name, but I'm sure we'll hear more from him), Brama Obama(?), is a fresh face, not tainted by having strong political history of being under attack by the media. He could possibly be the Democratic frontrunner, and eventual nominee. He has the right head on his shoulders to make wiser decisions than the predecessor currently in the job.

The the other possiblity is Hillary Clinton, reviled by the Republicans and the Right for molehills turned into mountains, but is bright, grey-haired, a very savvy person to what it takes to make a good government work, from local to global power structures. She can carry herself well under pressure, especially taking the crap from her husband's antics (which in a more honorable world would not have been the subject of congessional inquiries) and still standing tall, facing adversity like a true, seasoned warrior or political leader, instead of crumbling under the weight of the assault from the Republicans and the Right.
She worked to get universal health care started in this country during the first term of the Clinton years. The special interests (i.e. pharmaceutical companies and insurance companies), pretty much owned congress, having them in their back pocket (especially the Republican majority), and who used scare tactics to steamroll the American population to question how wise of an idea it was, which was turned into a defeat, not only for Hillary Clinton, but for the 40 million or so citizens then, and now, without affordable healthcare.
I think that although many Americans remain convinced that she's not the right person for the job, perhaps because of certain positions on abortion and a couple of other issues, we still, as good citizens, need to vote in whatever Democrat winds upon the next presidential election ballot. Whoever is there, is the only chance we have to begin the beginning of repairing the Republican generated damage to our country and the world, especially to world peace, over the past six (6) years. It will be a fresh beginning for the us and the rest of the world, a fresh face, a new start, a new beginning, one that will have a chance of being heard and respected. The Republicans have already lost that, squandering the 9/11 goodwill, clipping the Muslim moderates who have been keeping Islamic extremists in check (for the most part), and who have trashed the credibility of the US in the eyes of the rest of the world, 25% of whom are Muslims.

The bottom line is that unless we are able to break out of the cast in concrete positions of being the biggest gorilla throwing his weight around, come what may, on the world scene, unless we can get out of the mind set of the Military option is the best an only way to solve the problem, and vote in a Democrat (best chance to get working on moving in a positive direction), we will face an ever-increasing hostile world, and so will those who come after us. I do not want to leave a legacy of war, hate, and a destroyed environment for the future. I want to be honorable and wise, and respected for being so to future generations.

*
Ladderwell
Semper Fidelis

Ladderwell
08-20-06, 02:03 PM
Quote" History has shown that invaders, as in the Crusades, are typically merely a blip on the history of Isalm. All of the blood and all of the treasure spent here will all be forgotten in a couple of hundred years, and things will remain the same; religious governments, or strongman goverments or kingships to keep the radicals down. Why the waste?" Quote

Well Ladderwell going by your thoughts and prospective we had all better start learning how to pray towards Mecca.
The people of Iraq have shown that they do want a chance at Freedom and some that are serving right now with my son are putting their lives on the line to try and give Democracy a chance. Yes their are problems but we had problems also getting a Republic started and we had to fight to get it and keep it.
The one thing that is true is that as long as we have a President that do'nt give a rats ass about polls and does the things that help give the Iraqis a chance to stand up as some are doing they might just do what the far left in the country hate, which is win and do it with honor.
The plan I have heard from the far left is to get rid of anyone that disagree with the ones that want to cut and run. The proof is look at what they done to Senator Joe Liberman he has had a hard stand against the cut and run crowd and the far left has done the job of destroying him and is now pushing this call all over the country.
I would say some of your heros would b be, Micheal Moore,George Sorros , Jane fonda , Susan Saradon, Al Franken, and such.
My heros are Lcpl. Di Camillo , Lcpl Parrish , Lcpl, Pigg, Lcpl Cramer, Lcpl Brewer, Lcpl. Seeley, Cpl Morrales, Cpl Quinions and many more that I could name all serving with honor and pride in what they are doing and have done.
If ones with no honor is the mainstream media and the DNC cut and runners.
I know how much this must pain you to be in their crowd being such a strong supporter of the troops. :bunny:

You have yours and I have mine.;)

We need to face Isalm with intelligence, and solve the problem with our heads vs. our guns. The world has fought Isalm with physical weapons for 1,350 years, and it has not worked. The Europeans knew this and tried to tell us, but our "leaders" wouldn't listen. Hence, here we are, mired in another war, with the lives of our children, and the treasure from our coffers being wasted because of ill-informed and unwise cowboy arrogance.

We cannot just bail on the Iraqis now. We're in too deep, and the carnage would be too much. We smashed the status quo (i.e. no-terrorists coming out of Iraq), and now we have to unscrew it. "Cut and run?" Hardly. That's bunk! What we do need to do is begin ending the conflict. By going the route we're going, we are giving the radicals a training ground from which to unlease greater conflict and violence across the globe. We also need begin to stop the bleeding and death of our soldiers. Murtha, a former Marine, is too old, wise, and experienced to not see the truth of the matter, and unafraid to face adversity.

Comparing the founding of an Iraqi republic to the US is like comparing apples to oranges. They need to go through stages. They have too much religion infecting and overpowering personal actions of its citizenry. We cannot impose our version of democracy on a people who have no experience doing so. What if we founded the republic, and didn't like how that republic treated us? This is likely here. Also, would you allow foreigners to tell you how to act? I think not.

My heroes are the ones who are not just following orders. They have a long way to go to attain hero status. My heroes are those who are able to act on their own, and face adversity despite the resistence and condemnation they meet, even at their peril. That is above and beyond, and worth the label.

In many Arab coutries, cause "honor," incites them to pour gasoline on women and set the afire. Honor in that light is, in my opinion, not honorable. There is a lesson here that is transferrable to our own present condition.
*
Ladderwell
SF

003XXMarineDAD
08-20-06, 03:00 PM
:p
Ladderwell , the message you bring to this forum sounds just like the work of Moveon . org and the DNC hit lists that I have seen.
It matters to me not a dime more trying to point out the failings of your though. But as I have said you have yours and I have mine.
As far as Hillabeast god I hope they bring her on.
You must live in the east because I know that here in the west it has not turned to the crap you say the country is in.
As long as the Deafocrats keep thinking that the fly over country does not matter they will lose.
The old saying know thy enemy is very true , I 'am on the mailing list for our local Pravda party that loves to have fund raisers for the E.L.F. and PETA and others in like mind .
E.L.F. is wanted for bombing's in Calif. and here in Colorado.
I just love the smell of dead Ideas of the DNC and their Pravda party.:bunny:

OLE SARG
08-20-06, 05:35 PM
Listening to this crap about ms john fonda kerry and earning his purple hearts and silver star makes me SICK. That MFer did not earn ANYTHING!!!!! It is easy for ****heads like kerry to "EARN PURPLE HEARTS AND SILVER STARS" - especially since he was able to write the commendations and I think ms kerry has re-written the commendation on his Silver Star three times. AND the son of ***** has still not disclosed his military record - what does that tell you about the worthless piece of ****!!!!!!! AND from what I am reading, ms murtha has a problem with his "Purple Heart and I believe a Bronze Star with combat V"????????????? The only combat murtha might have seen was in the Officer's Club after his work as a staff pool officer in G-2.
SEMPER FI,

sgt tony
08-20-06, 06:18 PM
I just would like to say that if were are to win that we should allow our men/women fight this as a war and not become the police action that they are in now. In war thoes that are not in the combat are to move out and let the fight to begain.

jinelson
08-20-06, 08:59 PM
Just witness our crazed uncaring CIC and his cavilier attitude he displays with those he sends to die for absolutely nothing in the liberals eyes. Shocking inst it?.


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v660/jinelson/1965229_l.jpg

Like Ladderwell said our troops are older and more educated so it seems they cant be fooled by him or the liberal Al Jazeera party line!


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v660/jinelson/2555028_l.jpg

Semper Fi Brother dont ever give up! :D

Ladderwell
08-20-06, 09:37 PM
I do not read moveon, and have not read any of the publications of the Democratic party. I only try to analyze data from a wide array of sources (interviews with returning Vets of many conflicts,...

Ladderwell
08-20-06, 09:45 PM
I just would like to say that if were are to win that we should allow our men/women fight this as a war and not become the police action that they are in now. In war thoes that are not in the combat are to move out and let the fight to begain.

Sgt. Tony,

Thank you for chiming in.

When I was in, for every single person in combat, there were five (5) people supporting them. George Bush was told by his father, the UN, and the rest of the world with experience in this part of the world not to invade. Now that we're there, our men and women have a very long fight to fix the mess that was created by Cowboy George and his gang.

The Commandent of the Marine Corps had is theatre management room across from my office. They called the shots about how Marine resource were to be used. They took their orders from the Administration and Congress, and were a necessary part of the process leading all the way up the "boots on the ground" everywhere in the world.

We need to allow our soldiers to live by giving them the best armament and weapons available on the planet. We also need to allow them to live by having competent and wise leaders. That is what us civilians need to do in order to be good citizens. It is a life or death struggle.

Thanks again for contributing.

Respectfully,
*
Ladderwell
Semper Fi!

Ladderwell
08-20-06, 09:59 PM
Just witness our crazed uncaring CIC and his cavilier attitude he displays with those he sends to die for absolutely nothing in the liberals eyes. Shocking inst it?.


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v660/jinelson/1965229_l.jpg

Like Ladderwell said our troops are older and more educated so it seems they cant be fooled by him or the liberal Al Jazeera party line!


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v660/jinelson/2555028_l.jpg

Semper Fi Brother dont ever give up! :D


In the first photo Bush was embracing a GI. I hope he was saying that he was sorry for screwing up so much, to send him into a hostile country without global support, and making the fight ten times as hard as it had to be because of his cowboy attitude and sinful mistakes.

In the 2nd photo, "Screw Moore, and Love Bush," or something to that effect, the men in uniform must obey orders, and act as if they buy into the political bill of goods sold to them. Inwardly, their private duty is to protect their own, and get out alive, and to hell with everyone else. The photo simply is representative of soldiers buying into what they are doing in order for them to justify their sacrafices. When I was in during the Nam thing, I also bought into the "company line" as to why we were there. It wasn't until I was out in civilian life that I could afford to do the research and study the foundation for our presence in Southeast Asia. It was disheartening (sic) what I found.

I pray for the safe return of all troops in theater. I know many of them, and their families, and by God, I'm going to do all I can to ensure their safe return, and prevent more useless waste of blood and money. Do we go, go, go, and be gung ho until we leave everyone dead, and make a million more Osama Bin Ladens during the next hundred years, or do we do our job as citizens, and smarten up, and smarten up the rest of the citizenry?

We have sacred responsiblity to protect this Grand Experiment of the United States. A former Secretary of State called the unwise invasion of Iraq as the most serious mistake we have ever made as a country. I pray it is not true, but knowing the world, and the history of Islam, it is inconveniently true.

Respectfully,
Ladderwell
SF

greensideout
08-20-06, 10:37 PM
Greensideout,

The Republican administration is what has shaken the world's faith in the USA. It is not only the Iraq debaucle that has been observed, but alongside that has been the failure of the US to sign the Kyoto Agreement to try to manage the amount of carbon dioxide causing the now apparent runaway global warming that the world's children will inherit, the tax breaks mostly (~97%) benefiting the upper 3% of the US's population, the Inheritance Tax, brought about to prevent as much as possible, further concentration of a nation's wealth in the hands of a very few (Us citizens are being sold a bill of goods on this with the tax being called a "Death Tax"), the clipping of the EPA, taking away its teeth to fight pollution of our air, land and rivers, the relentless assault on the remaining pristine lands of the north to drill for oil (stealing from the US citizens who will need it in the future, all of which has been observed by us as citizens of the US, and by the majority of the rest of the world's citizens as well. We are citizens of the planet.

All of the above has been the actions of the Republican Party since they took over power back during Clinton's presidency. They had us focused on stains on Lewinsky's dress, and the fact that Clinton lied to keep the truth more from his wife than the American people. The Republican gameplan was to politically asassinate (sic) Clinton and Gore to enable them to get into the seats of power so they could run with their own agenda. They sold, and still sell, a bill of goods to enough interest groups in the country to win elections, retain the seats of power, and while throwing the interest groups a few bones, run wild with their own personal agenda of making the rich richer, the stronger stronger, and the powerful more powerful, not to mention the chance to "finish the job" of toppling Saddam now that Bush Senior was no longer in the way to stop them.

The answer to your question of "Where will we find a good leader?" is in one way simple, and another rather complex:

1. It cannot be a Republican. The US has lost its credibility in the eyes of the world. Condleza (sic) Rice, in the Mideast, was trying to help broker a ceasefire in southeren Lebanon. She presented the US's position while having a major, and continued loss of credibility on the world stage. Even if we were to elect another Republican administration, or a leader from the Repbulican party who had the ideal answers and all of the qualifications of being the needed leader to bring about world peace, it wouldn't work because the world has had enough of a Republican led US administration. Their "Ideal" solutions would fall on deaf ears. The bottom line is that it simply cannot be a Repbulican.

2. The complexities of the situation lie in us choosing not necessarily the best person for the job, but because of the extreme divisiveness grown in our country over the past six (6) years, the consensus will need to fall on the "least worse" leader, and because of present reality, the leader will have to come from the ranks of the Democratic party.

In my opinion, and I can most definitely be wrong, anyone who has run before and lost would probably lose again. This eliminates Kerry and Gore.

The guy from Chicago (I cannot clearly remember his name, but I'm sure we'll hear more from him), Brama Obama(?), is a fresh face, not tainted by having strong political history of being under attack by the media. He could possibly be the Democratic frontrunner, and eventual nominee. He has the right head on his shoulders to make wiser decisions than the predecessor currently in the job.

The the other possiblity is Hillary Clinton, reviled by the Republicans and the Right for molehills turned into mountains, but is bright, grey-haired, a very savvy person to what it takes to make a good government work, from local to global power structures. She can carry herself well under pressure, especially taking the crap from her husband's antics (which in a more honorable world would not have been the subject of congessional inquiries) and still standing tall, facing adversity like a true, seasoned warrior or political leader, instead of crumbling under the weight of the assault from the Republicans and the Right.
She worked to get universal health care started in this country during the first term of the Clinton years. The special interests (i.e. pharmaceutical companies and insurance companies), pretty much owned congress, having them in their back pocket (especially the Republican majority), and who used scare tactics to steamroll the American population to question how wise of an idea it was, which was turned into a defeat, not only for Hillary Clinton, but for the 40 million or so citizens then, and now, without affordable healthcare.
I think that although many Americans remain convinced that she's not the right person for the job, perhaps because of certain positions on abortion and a couple of other issues, we still, as good citizens, need to vote in whatever Democrat winds upon the next presidential election ballot. Whoever is there, is the only chance we have to begin the beginning of repairing the Republican generated damage to our country and the world, especially to world peace, over the past six (6) years. It will be a fresh beginning for the us and the rest of the world, a fresh face, a new start, a new beginning, one that will have a chance of being heard and respected. The Republicans have already lost that, squandering the 9/11 goodwill, clipping the Muslim moderates who have been keeping Islamic extremists in check (for the most part), and who have trashed the credibility of the US in the eyes of the rest of the world, 25% of whom are Muslims.

The bottom line is that unless we are able to break out of the cast in concrete positions of being the biggest gorilla throwing his weight around, come what may, on the world scene, unless we can get out of the mind set of the Military option is the best an only way to solve the problem, and vote in a Democrat (best chance to get working on moving in a positive direction), we will face an ever-increasing hostile world, and so will those who come after us. I do not want to leave a legacy of war, hate, and a destroyed environment for the future. I want to be honorable and wise, and respected for being so to future generations.

*
Ladderwell
Semper Fidelis


Wow! What a flash back in time! You are giving the same utopian ideas that I was hogwashed with in college so many years ago! I mean no disrespect but I am shocked that the academic world that you live in remains in a bubble of the ignorance of the past. "Let's teach the world to sing in perfect harmony", pass out the cokes and all will be fine. Ya, right!
Does 9/11 strike a bell?
Sing "God Bless America" 20 times so that you might hear in your mind what others feel in their hearts and are commited to protecting.

jinelson
08-20-06, 10:55 PM
by Ladderwell - I do not read moveon, and have not read any of the publications of the Democratic party. I only try to analyze data from a wide array of sources (interviews with returning Vets of many conflicts, Leatherneck.com, BBC.com, National Public Radio, Christian Science Monitor (csmonitor.com), Boston Globe, Times Union, and magazines such as America's First Freedom. From these sources, as well as reading history books, biographies and autobiographies of key historical players, all help form my opinions.

Wow you are certainly well read brother. This is a virtual cacophony of liberal if it doesent bleed it will never lead journalism, good choice and no surprise. Are you saying that the DNC publications and moveon are a bit too centrist for your tastes? You should really give KURIER Russian American Weekly Newspaper, Pravda, Daily Socialist Worker and Al Jezeera a read they all think along the same party lines as you and you wont miss a headline of truth. Its no wonder that you would defend Senator John Mecca Murtha and his valiant effort to defeat America in the War On Terrorism. :)

Semper Fi

Jim

003XXMarineDAD
08-20-06, 11:31 PM
:bunny: Imagine a world with out leftists:bunny:

Ladderwell
08-21-06, 05:43 AM
Wow! What a flash back in time! You are giving the same utopian ideas that I was hogwashed with in college so many years ago! I mean no disrespect but I am shocked that the academic world that you live in remains in a bubble of the ignorance of the past. "Let's teach the world to sing in perfect harmony", pass out the cokes and all will be fine. Ya, right!
Does 9/11 strike a bell?
Sing "God Bless America" 20 times so that you might hear in your mind what others feel in their hearts and are commited to protecting.


"No man is an island." We live in a global society, like it or not. Unless we behave as part of the family of man, and not the Black Sheep, we are doomed, and our nationalistic extremeism calously inflicts pain and suffering upon the future. The way of the gun has its place in the world, but needs to be used judiciously. Do we tackle the problems of the world without having full knowledge of what we are getting ourselves into, or do we know, and don't care.

Instead of cynicism, I prefer skepticism. I went along with believing our leaders when they heaped their own hogwash of WMDs and Terrorism in Iraq. In my opinion, those who lied do not deserve my respect. They even threw out that "liberal," Colin Powell. This Administration is not a kingship. They are out of control.

I respect your opinion as well, but with skin in the game, I'm idealistically trying to be part of the soluion.

Equally Respectfully,
Ladderwell
SF

Ladderwell
08-21-06, 05:54 AM
Wow you are certainly well read brother. This is a virtual cacophony of liberal if it doesent bleed it will never lead journalism, good choice and no surprise. Are you saying that the DNC publications and moveon are a bit too centrist for your tastes? You should really give KURIER Russian American Weekly Newspaper, Pravda, Daily Socialist Worker and Al Jezeera a read they all think along the same party lines as you and you wont miss a headline of truth. Its no wonder that you would defend Senator John Mecca Murtha and his valiant effort to defeat America in the War On Terrorism. :)

Semper Fi

Jim

Elements of truth in the media you mentioned are what our enemies are beating us over the head with. What does the War on Terrorism have to do with Iraq, other than being a training ground and inspiration for Al Quaida? Can you deny that we built it, and on illegitmate arguments?

Iraq had ZERO to do with our 9/11 problems. We've spent too much wasteful energy here, vs. wisely used energy to combat the causes for the terrorism we face.

Murtha is more of a person who stands up and lives the American ideals than Bush JR. All of my ideals of being an American have been shat upon by the current administration. The "American Way" in the world is no longer honorable.

Sadly,
Ladderwell
SF

OLE SARG
08-21-06, 10:26 AM
I'm still trying to figure out which fantasy world Ladderwell is living in!!!!!!! I think ms kerry could be their king!!

SEMPER FI,

Static_Sky25
08-22-06, 11:02 AM
when ya'll go and see those boys... a beer and a thanks on me if ya would... and I'm sorry everyones having to put up with "ladderwell" musta got his nick cause that's where the Drill Instructors made his nasty a$$ rack out... but that's besides the point.. as we can all see this man is missing the point... and that's exactly what our lovely media and these corrupted pigs want. The point is we have brothers and sisters over there... they still need us.

When's the last time we had a "Desert Drive" on this page? they still need our care packages and I for one think we should get one started... I'd offer my residence for the "warehouse and sorting position" however I rent a room so I don't think I have the space... if someone looks into themselves and finds the fire to take this task on give me an address so I can chip in...

I didn't earn it but I ain't gonna turn my back on MY brother and sister Marines. Semper Fi and to those who've been there a very sincere Thanks.

Joe

Ladderwell
08-22-06, 08:37 PM
I'm still trying to figure out which fantasy world Ladderwell is living in!!!!!!! I think ms kerry could be their king!!

SEMPER FI,

Denying the truth does not make it wrong. Look at the suffering. Are we safer now than when the Republicans took over the government, or are we significantly less so?

People are paranoid, the power grab by the executive powers are identical to Fascist Europe, even the Federal Court is saying "WHOA!" There is a rising tide of hate towards us across the world, and we have squandered and lost any credibility with people we need to befriend and influence to protect America, and make the world safe and healthy.

Unfortunately, the "fantasy world" to which you refer is reality.

Years ago I met a Russian Jew who emigrated to the US. He had teens, and I asked him if he would get any hassle from his children if he had to relocate to find a better job. His reply was "No, my children are Realists." Too many Americans would not recognize crap if they were grabbed by the scruff of the neck and had their noses stuck into it. "Nope, smells like roses to me."

Call it like it "really" is. Our country is riding on it.
*
Ladderwell
SF

Ladderwell
08-22-06, 08:47 PM
when ya'll go and see those boys... a beer and a thanks on me if ya would... and I'm sorry everyones having to put up with "ladderwell" musta got his nick cause that's where the Drill Instructors made his nasty a$$ rack out... but that's besides the point.. as we can all see this man is missing the point... and that's exactly what our lovely media and these corrupted pigs want. The point is we have brothers and sisters over there... they still need us.

When's the last time we had a "Desert Drive" on this page? they still need our care packages and I for one think we should get one started... I'd offer my residence for the "warehouse and sorting position" however I rent a room so I don't think I have the space... if someone looks into themselves and finds the fire to take this task on give me an address so I can chip in...

I didn't earn it but I ain't gonna turn my back on MY brother and sister Marines. Semper Fi and to those who've been there a very sincere Thanks.

Joe

Static_Sky25,

I understand your position, and I agree with you, though I'm afraid I miss your insult. Nevertheless, the Marine brothers and sisters to whom you refer, unless you're in uniform with them, are NOT YOUR brothers and sisters. As former Marines we are their PARENTS, not siblings, and must take ADULT responsibiliy for protecting them. We need to defend them from poor leaders by fighting like wolves to see that they are not USELESSLY put into harm's way.

When we were in, we stood alongside each other, obeyed orders, believed in the cause, and gave it 110%. Now that we're out, we have to grow wiser, understand the big picture, keep open to new knowledge, so that we can become the wise stewards of the youth, our country, and our world. We cannot sit back, get drunk, shout for Old Glory and the American Way when our present leaders have done more to harm them in the past six years than anyone at any time since 1776.
*
Respectfully,
Ladderwell
SF

greensideout
08-22-06, 10:41 PM
Ladderwell,

Have you moved from self set principles to blame? I think that it is important to remember that the "last six years" is not the reason that we are at war with Islam. They have not even been held at bay by any prior administrations, just ignored. So---here we are with an administration that is willing to stand and fight the enemy of America that brought 9/11 and more before it and you bring them curse? I believe that you want peace as much as any of us that hate war. Your solutions however would likely take hundreds of years to complete, that's if they would work at all. We must ensure that security and freedom remain now and in the future because it is our duty to safeguard what makes America great. You might be thinking now---what about two hundred years from now? Simple answer, when we win, all will be better!

6yrforMar
08-23-06, 12:21 AM
In 2008 if the left wins the presidency,lets see how they deal with a Nuclear N.Korea and Iran and hopefully they don`t cut & run from Iraq.If this happens Bin Laden will be proven correct,that the USA connot stomach heavy losses & Quits.We will Eventually end up getting our Arrs kicked because we will embolden the terrorists.These folks on the Left think our way of life and the freedoms we have here are a God given right!

iamcloudlander
08-23-06, 02:58 AM
Ladderwell
I just finished watching a documentary "Freeing of Kuwait"
I was most impressed by Colin Powell; as he was being interviewed he said that as he watched the slaughter of the Palace Guard on the road from Kuwait City back to Iraq and heard Storming Norman declare that Baghdad would be in under our control and Sadam would be in jail, he pointed out as they showed the battle on a screen, the tank with the burnt Iraqi hanging out of the turrent. He stated that at this point he went to President Bush and told him to stop this as the American people would not stand for much more of what he called atrocities. He said that he had to convince Bush that this would be the right thing to do. Bush then picked up the phone and called Storming Norman and told him to stop the advance and withdraw the troops. Norman tried to talk Bush out of it but could not the General then explained (on the air) that this was a mistake and we would be back sooner than we could imagine. He begged for the permission to continue and take Sadam out of power for good. He was denied and
withdrew the troops. As a student of history I thought that you might see the error of this decision brought about by one mans misguided thoughts about how the American public thinks. I know that in this area it caused an uproar as we were betting on Storming Norman to take out Sadam had he been allowed to end Sadams reign then we would probably not be there today. Think???

Ladderwell
08-23-06, 06:01 AM
In 2008 if the left wins the presidency,lets see how they deal with a Nuclear N.Korea and Iran and hopefully they don`t cut & run from Iraq.If this happens Bin Laden will be proven correct,that the USA connot stomach heavy losses & Quits.We will Eventually end up getting our Arrs kicked because we will embolden the terrorists.These folks on the Left think our way of life and the freedoms we have here are a God given right!


The US has lost most of the credibility built up over the last 250 years. We have lost global support because of the actions of our current administration. We are also militarily too thin to fight on another front, or 2, or 3. There are a lot of bad actors out there. They have their own agendas, and the Republican administration has made us weaker on the world stage, while we continue to squander the blood of our soldiers, the treasure from our faults, the mortgaging of our children's future, lose our focus on winning the hearts and minds of Islam and supporting the moderates in their challenge of getting the religious fundamentalists in Isalm (partly unleashed by the Christian Fundamentalists who helped elect the current administration). Bad actors can take advantage of our weaknesses and our distractions elsewhere. These distractions did not need to come into being.

The only way to begin the beginning of getting things unscrewed is, despite our misgivings, to elect an entirely new fact to our government, and that means the Republicans need to be replaced by the Democrats. It's not the whole solution, but at least it would be a start.

Respectfully,
Ladderwell
SF

Ladderwell
08-23-06, 06:06 AM
Ladderwell
I just finished watching a documentary "Freeing of Kuwait"
I was most impressed by Colin Powell; as he was being interviewed he said that as he watched the slaughter of the Palace Guard on the road from Kuwait City back to Iraq and heard Storming Norman declare that Baghdad would be in under our control and Sadam would be in jail, he pointed out as they showed the battle on a screen, the tank with the burnt Iraqi hanging out of the turrent. He stated that at this point he went to President Bush and told him to stop this as the American people would not stand for much more of what he called atrocities. He said that he had to convince Bush that this would be the right thing to do. Bush then picked up the phone and called Storming Norman and told him to stop the advance and withdraw the troops. Norman tried to talk Bush out of it but could not the General then explained (on the air) that this was a mistake and we would be back sooner than we could imagine. He begged for the permission to continue and take Sadam out of power for good. He was denied and
withdrew the troops. As a student of history I thought that you might see the error of this decision brought about by one mans misguided thoughts about how the American public thinks. I know that in this area it caused an uproar as we were betting on Storming Norman to take out Sadam had he been allowed to end Sadams reign then we would probably not be there today. Think???

It was the Hawks who wanted to keep the 1st war going. It was the result of wise counsel that prevented it from doing so.

The UN agreement at the time was to get Iraq out of Kuwait, not topple Saddam. They UN collectively knew the result of going to Baghdad.

Why are we in Iraq at all? Now we need to stay there to unscrew the mess, but Iraq didn't do anything to the US. Why are we squandering people and treasure there? There were wiser battles to fight and win. This was not one of them.
*
Respectfully,
Ladderwell
SF

OLE SARG
08-23-06, 08:46 AM
ladderwell,
You are in a ****ing fantasy world when you have to praise the likes of kerry and murtha. Two ****ing losers without a ****ing clue, I'm sorry make that three!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Your rhetoric is getting on my one last nerve. I bet you have a picture of your heros on your livingroom wall, i.e., kerry, murtha and swimmer kennedy!!!! If you look up to these turds, you are one sick MFer!!! AND, if you think the U.N. (collective group of idiots) is going to do anything, other than issue a resolution and if you don't comply with that one they'll issue another one, see previous sentence.

SEMPER FI,

jinelson
08-23-06, 10:26 AM
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v660/jinelson/MurthaSemperI-sm.jpg

“Semper I” is an old Marine Corps term applied to those selfish careerists who place their own success ahead of their men and the well-being of the Corps. Congressman John Murtha is a living example of that disgraceful term. [originally published on The American Thinker]


A bugle blows in Arlington,

Lilting notes fill still sad air,

An eagle’s tears a globe fall on,

Trail an anchor with despair,

For a man we’d wish had not to die,

Brave youth among the best,

A Marine, he lived for Semper Fi,

And with Semper Fi he’ll rest.



So sadly is the contrast,

Between those who talk and fight;

Fat Pols for whom their war’s past,

But now can’t see the light,

Accusing brave young fighting men,

Of crimes they can’t defend,

Disgraceful fat old congressmen,

Who’ve lost the will to win.



Yes there we see the difference,

Between those who fight to win,

And a congressman with no sense,

Who’s committed grievous sin;

He’s turned against his Corps,

And no one knows quite why,

Except he loves himself much more:

Classic case of Semper I.

Static_Sky25
08-23-06, 10:53 AM
Static_Sky25,

I understand your position, and I agree with you, though I'm afraid I miss your insult. Nevertheless, the Marine brothers and sisters to whom you refer, unless you're in uniform with them, are NOT YOUR brothers and sisters. As former Marines we are their PARENTS, not siblings, and must take ADULT responsibiliy for protecting them. We need to defend them from poor leaders by fighting like wolves to see that they are not USELESSLY put into harm's way.


Ladderwell
SF

First things first. I'm just sick of you rambaling, you like 15 others who are so anti-establishment but served in the Corps, just another contradiction.

Second thing I may not have crossed the grinder but they are my brothers and sisters. I'm not gettin into my personal reasoning for this, more than to say the Marine Corps is the only family I've ever had. And furthermore, I know they'll have my 6 when I need them.. well in mostcases.

Third thing. if you didn't create them they are not your children... that's first day stuff

And finally, I didn't direct my previous post at you. I was talking to the members of our board here that still have balls enough to know that we need to have OUR brothers and sisters backs over there... they have things they need and I was trying to bring up the fact that their still in some hot filthy desert and could use some stuff to make life a little more homey.

Anything else?

Ladderwell
08-23-06, 04:18 PM
Ladderwell
I just finished watching a documentary "Freeing of Kuwait"
I was most impressed by Colin Powell; as he was being interviewed he said that as he watched the slaughter of the Palace Guard on the road from Kuwait City back to Iraq and heard Storming Norman declare that Baghdad would be in under our control and Sadam would be in jail, he pointed out as they showed the battle on a screen, the tank with the burnt Iraqi hanging out of the turrent. He stated that at this point he went to President Bush and told him to stop this as the American people would not stand for much more of what he called atrocities. He said that he had to convince Bush that this would be the right thing to do. Bush then picked up the phone and called Storming Norman and told him to stop the advance and withdraw the troops. Norman tried to talk Bush out of it but could not the General then explained (on the air) that this was a mistake and we would be back sooner than we could imagine. He begged for the permission to continue and take Sadam out of power for good. He was denied and
withdrew the troops. As a student of history I thought that you might see the error of this decision brought about by one mans misguided thoughts about how the American public thinks. I know that in this area it caused an uproar as we were betting on Storming Norman to take out Sadam had he been allowed to end Sadams reign then we would probably not be there today. Think???

Iamcloudlander,

Marshal Tito in Yugoslavia kept the lid on the intercine warfare in the Balkans from the end of WWII until his death. His strongarm tactics worked, similar to Saddam in Iraq. When Tito died, Yugoslavia exploded. When we removed Saddam from power, Iraq exploded. Our elected leaders missed that lesson.
*
Respectfully,
Ladderwell
SF




































































































\

Ladderwell
08-23-06, 04:27 PM
ladderwell,
You are in a ****ing fantasy world when you have to praise the likes of kerry and murtha. Two ****ing losers without a ****ing clue, I'm sorry make that three!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Your rhetoric is getting on my one last nerve. I bet you have a picture of your heros on your livingroom wall, i.e., kerry, murtha and swimmer kennedy!!!! If you look up to these turds, you are one sick MFer!!! AND, if you think the U.N. (collective group of idiots) is going to do anything, other than issue a resolution and if you don't comply with that one they'll issue another one, see previous sentence.

SEMPER FI,

Murtha and Kerry are decorated war heroes. I have not earned the right to insult them, as they are brothers-in-arms, and having lived what they lived through, deserve my respect. Are they "my heroes?" I have a select few of those. However, did and do Murtha and Kerry act herocially? You bet.

People trashed the League of Nations after WWI, that yielded WWII. What do you think trashing the United Nations will result in this time around.

There is a time and a place for the fist. Going off half-cocked and emotionally was one of the reasons the Ten Commandments and our legal system was created. We need to rise above base instincts. Fist and fury are fine, but need to be controlled and unleashed by wisdom.
*
Ladderwell
SF

Ladderwell
08-23-06, 04:47 PM
First things first. I'm just sick of you rambaling, you like 15 others who are so anti-establishment but served in the Corps, just another contradiction.

Second thing I may not have crossed the grinder but they are my brothers and sisters. I'm not gettin into my personal reasoning for this, more than to say the Marine Corps is the only family I've ever had. And furthermore, I know they'll have my 6 when I need them.. well in mostcases.

Third thing. if you didn't create them they are not your children... that's first day stuff

And finally, I didn't direct my previous post at you. I was talking to the members of our board here that still have balls enough to know that we need to have OUR brothers and sisters backs over there... they have things they need and I was trying to bring up the fact that their still in some hot filthy desert and could use some stuff to make life a little more homey.

Anything else?

Static_Sky25,

Those of us who served in the Corps learned things. Those of us who survived our time there are supposed to take the responsibility of good citizenship seriously, and build on our experience, knowledge, and wisdom gained while in uniform. This forum is for sharing of what we know and what we have learned. The groundrules state that it is supposed to be a place of healthy dialog. There are contradictions everywhere. Life is complex, problems are complex and so are the solutions. Let's work out some solutions.

Calling us old farts "parents" and those in uniform "our children" is a metaphor. We are in different worlds, with different responsibilities. They are the spear, the civilian government "throws the spear." We need to protect the men and women in uniform by electing a good and wise civilian government. Wouldnt' you agree?

I have friends and family in uniform, in multiple branches, and spread all over the globe, inlcuding Iraq, the Phillipines, and supporting our Korean theatre, including some in the USMC. I have their backs. That is why we all need to behave will cool heads, and rise above the battlefield to see and hopefully understand the big picture.

Supporting our troops "over there" with material goods to help them get by in more comfort is a wonderful idea. I support and applaud that. I've been doing it for 3 years this time out. They have their responsibilities and their realities. My goal is to try to lessen the danger to them.

Respectfully,
Ladderwell
Semper Fidelis...Always Faithful

jinelson
08-23-06, 04:48 PM
by Ladderwell - Murtha and Kerry are decorated war heroes. I have not earned the right to insult them, as they are brothers-in-arms, and having lived what they lived through, deserve my respect. Are they "my heroes?" I have a select few of those. However, did and do Murtha and Kerry act herocially? You bet.

Well I have! If your idea of acting heroically is accusing and convicting without a full investigation so as to rush to judgement brave Marines you are further out than I had thought. Certainly even in your utopian America there must be due process!


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v660/jinelson/4c0f9578d2.jpg

narc
08-23-06, 04:50 PM
kerry & murtha are not hereo's, they are simply two people who wore the uniform & did there time. then some say they came home & lied about it and i believe that to be true.

Ladderwell
08-23-06, 04:54 PM
Well I have! If your idea of acting heroically is accusing and convicting without a full investigation so as to rush to judgement brave Marines you are further out than I had thought. Certainly even in your utopian America there must be due process!


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v660/jinelson/4c0f9578d2.jpg

I have not heard any quotes from either accusing our soldiers of crimes against the Geneva Convention. However, it could happen, and in war, shi* happens. Even the best of the best lose their cool, sometimes for good reason. It happened in Nam, and every conflict that I have ever studied. I do not accuse anyone of anything. I only work to have good leadership, so as not to place our troop unnecessarily in circumstances where shi* happens.

Respectfully,
Ladderwell
SF

Static_Sky25
08-23-06, 05:14 PM
Static_Sky25,

Those of us who served in the Corps learned things. Those of us who survived our time there are supposed to take the responsibility of good citizenship seriously, and build on our experience, knowledge, and wisdom gained while in uniform. This forum is for sharing of what we know and what we have learned. The groundrules state that it is supposed to be a place of healthy dialog. There are contradictions everywhere. Life is complex, problems are complex and so are the solutions. Let's work out some solutions.

Calling us old farts "parents" and those in uniform "our children" is a metaphor. We are in different worlds, with different responsibilities. They are the spear, the civilian government "throws the spear." We need to protect the men and women in uniform by electing a good and wise civilian government. Wouldnt' you agree?

I have friends and family in uniform, in multiple branches, and spread all over the globe, inlcuding Iraq, the Phillipines, and supporting our Korean theatre, including some in the USMC. I have their backs. That is why we all need to behave will cool heads, and rise above the battlefield to see and hopefully understand the big picture.

Supporting our troops "over there" with material goods to help them get by in more comfort is a wonderful idea. I support and applaud that. I've been doing it for 3 years this time out. They have their responsibilities and their realities. My goal is to try to lessen the danger to them.

Respectfully,
Ladderwell
Semper Fidelis...Always Faithful

however coming from a military family where I'm the only one who "failed to pull my combat time" I strongly disagree with your political view in the fact that you support the two clowns you do... I do not doubt that you served and served decently however I do request that you do more research on these men you find so great... from all records I can find Mr. Kerry (and I use that loosely because I believe he's not worth it) came home from fighting so valiantly (where he injured himself out of a lack of common sence) and turned on his "brothers in arms" he left behind... he's a big a coward as they come for that, And now Mr. Murtha (who hails from the birthplace of our MC) is trying to make our military personel look like fools to suit his agenda.

But I agree we do need to elect Responcible/Intelligent leadership... My question to you is how do we intend to do that? With congress voting for tax cuts that pay the rich more than the workin people (not even commenting on THEIR raises) and our nations rich running the show... whens was the last blue collar prez? Never... why? (to borrow from the feminists) it's the good ol boys club... you got no $ you don't get to play so when you figure out a solution to that... so we can get someone in office/congress/the house of reps who sees things from their peoples POV (kinda like how some officers listen to their SNCOs due to their experience) then I'll admit I was wrong however until then... I still have to disagree

greensideout
08-23-06, 08:56 PM
Ladderwell,

I commend you in your stand to defend your solutions for world peace in what has become a near mob assault against you---LOL. You exhibit a true Marine trait in that reguard! No, I don't agree with your soft love ideas to end evil in this world but at least you seek peace as the same end goal.

Semper Fi,
GSO

thedrifter
08-23-06, 09:01 PM
Ladderwell,

I commend you in your stand to defend your solutions for world peace in what has become a near mob assault against you---LOL. You exhibit a true Marine trait in that reguard! No, I don't agree with your soft love ideas to end evil in this world but at least you seek peace as the same end goal.

Semper Fi,
GSO

Outstanding GSO!

Ellie

Ladderwell
08-23-06, 09:51 PM
Well I have! If your idea of acting heroically is accusing and convicting without a full investigation so as to rush to judgement brave Marines you are further out than I had thought. Certainly even in your utopian America there must be due process!


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v660/jinelson/4c0f9578d2.jpg

In war, shi* happens. Call it what it is. Good stuff, bad stuff, it's all in the bag, like it or not. To minimize the shi*, our leaders shouldn't have put our troops into a war based on lies (WMD, terrorism, etc.). Tweren't there.

Regardless, even if Kerry were elected President in 2008, despite what many think about him, he and a Democratic congress would be the lesser of 2 evils for our troops, our country, and our world. Some may hate him, but calling it like it is, we've got to elect a saner and wisler government. This country has never had a worse administration and congress, and it is the Republicans who are in control. Their damage is apocolyptical (sic).

Respectfully,
Ladderwell
SF
*
Respectfully,
Ladderwell
Semper Fidelis

Ladderwell
08-23-06, 09:54 PM
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v660/jinelson/MurthaSemperI-sm.jpg

“Semper I” is an old Marine Corps term applied to those selfish careerists who place their own success ahead of their men and the well-being of the Corps. Congressman John Murtha is a living example of that disgraceful term. [originally published on The American Thinker]


A bugle blows in Arlington,

Lilting notes fill still sad air,

An eagle’s tears a globe fall on,

Trail an anchor with despair,

For a man we’d wish had not to die,

Brave youth among the best,

A Marine, he lived for Semper Fi,

And with Semper Fi he’ll rest.



So sadly is the contrast,

Between those who talk and fight;

Fat Pols for whom their war’s past,

But now can’t see the light,

Accusing brave young fighting men,

Of crimes they can’t defend,

Disgraceful fat old congressmen,

Who’ve lost the will to win.



Yes there we see the difference,

Between those who fight to win,

And a congressman with no sense,

Who’s committed grievous sin;

He’s turned against his Corps,

And no one knows quite why,

Except he loves himself much more:

Classic case of Semper I.

That is a lie.

This isn't:

Main Entry: jin·go·ism
Pronunciation: 'ji[ng]-(")gO-"i-z&m
Function: noun
: extreme chauvinism or nationalism marked especially by a belligerent foreign policy - jin·go·ist /-ist/ noun or adjective
- jin·go·is·tic /"ji[ng]-gO-'is-tik/ adjective
- jin·go·is·ti·cal·ly /-ti-k(&-)lE/ adverb

Look around. See anything familiar?
*
Respectfully,
Ladderwell
SF

Ladderwell
08-23-06, 10:02 PM
however coming from a military family where I'm the only one who "failed to pull my combat time" I strongly disagree with your political view in the fact that you support the two clowns you do... I do not doubt that you served and served decently however I do request that you do more research on these men you find so great... from all records I can find Mr. Kerry (and I use that loosely because I believe he's not worth it) came home from fighting so valiantly (where he injured himself out of a lack of common sence) and turned on his "brothers in arms" he left behind... he's a big a coward as they come for that, And now Mr. Murtha (who hails from the birthplace of our MC) is trying to make our military personel look like fools to suit his agenda.

But I agree we do need to elect Responcible/Intelligent leadership... My question to you is how do we intend to do that? With congress voting for tax cuts that pay the rich more than the workin people (not even commenting on THEIR raises) and our nations rich running the show... whens was the last blue collar prez? Never... why? (to borrow from the feminists) it's the good ol boys club... you got no $ you don't get to play so when you figure out a solution to that... so we can get someone in office/congress/the house of reps who sees things from their peoples POV (kinda like how some officers listen to their SNCOs due to their experience) then I'll admit I was wrong however until then... I still have to disagree

Opinions of Murtha and Kerry are meaningless. We need to take an objective view of the facts of this administration. Nothing that they can say will change the truth on the ground.

Regarding control of congress, at the end of 8 years of a Republican administration I envision a political cartoon of a bunch of grossly obese fat pigs (upper 3% of the population represented by Republicans) wearing tuxedos around a huge table filled with food and drink, stupified to the point of near unconsciousness from their orgy of power and money grabbing at the expense of the People.

The Democrats, if not perceived as a Messiah, should certainly be identified as the lesser of 2 evils in leading the country out of the Hell into which we've been put, and getting deeper into it every day.

Respectfully,
Ladderwell
SF

Ladderwell
08-23-06, 10:06 PM
kerry & murtha are not hereo's, they are simply two people who wore the uniform & did there time. then some say they came home & lied about it and i believe that to be true.

As decorated war heroes, they are acknowledged as serving above and beyond the call of duty, like so many others. They did not lie, although truth can lose some clarity by being born in the hell of combat, and armchair quarterbacks 35-40 years later (Boy, am I getting old).

Keep the Faith. Keep digging, along with many others.

Respectfully,
Ladderwell
SF

Ladderwell
08-23-06, 10:11 PM
Ladderwell,

I commend you in your stand to defend your solutions for world peace in what has become a near mob assault against you---LOL. You exhibit a true Marine trait in that reguard! No, I don't agree with your soft love ideas to end evil in this world but at least you seek peace as the same end goal.

Semper Fi,
GSO

GSO,

Thank you. In getting in touch with my "maternal side," my mother loved me when she held me to her breast, and loved me when she blistered my rear-end. There is a time for both. I employ both.

God bless.
*
Respectfully,
Ladderwell
Semper Fidelis :=)

Ladderwell
08-23-06, 10:17 PM
In 2008 if the left wins the presidency,lets see how they deal with a Nuclear N.Korea and Iran and hopefully they don`t cut & run from Iraq.If this happens Bin Laden will be proven correct,that the USA connot stomach heavy losses & Quits.We will Eventually end up getting our Arrs kicked because we will embolden the terrorists.These folks on the Left think our way of life and the freedoms we have here are a God given right!

This Republican administration has spread our military so thin, and because of their cowboy diplomacy so weak, that we are less able to deal with whackos like North Korea and Iran. The next administration needs to spend years just on damage control to try to regain our standing in the world.

The US can withstand heavy losses, and not afraid to take it on the chin, below the belt, or toe to toe, but the People are going to be p.o'd when they look over their shoulders at the leaders who put them there, and when they realize they're all alone in the global community. The United Nations, as weak and corrupt as it is, is the best place to deal with global problems. We are part of the "Family of Nations." It is time we began acting like one again. Regarding this administration, the People should say "NEXT!"

Respectfully,
Ladderwell
SF

Ladderwell
08-23-06, 10:17 PM
In 2008 if the left wins the presidency,lets see how they deal with a Nuclear N.Korea and Iran and hopefully they don`t cut & run from Iraq.If this happens Bin Laden will be proven correct,that the USA connot stomach heavy losses & Quits.We will Eventually end up getting our Arrs kicked because we will embolden the terrorists.These folks on the Left think our way of life and the freedoms we have here are a God given right!

This Republican administration has spread our military so thin, and because of their cowboy diplomacy so weak, that we are less able to deal with whackos like North Korea and Iran. The next administration needs to spend years just on damage control to try to regain our standing in the world.

The US can withstand heavy losses, and not afraid to take it on the chin, below the belt, or toe to toe, but the People are going to be p.o'd when they look over their shoulders at the leaders who put them there, and when they realize they're all alone in the global community. The United Nations, as weak and corrupt as it is, is the best place to deal with global problems. We are part of the "Family of Nations." It is time we began acting like one again. Regarding this administration, the People should say "NEXT!"

Respectfully,
Ladderwell
SF

003XXMarineDAD
08-23-06, 10:34 PM
[QUOTE ]The US can withstand heavy losses, and not afraid to take it on the chin, below the belt, or toe to toe, but the People are going to be p.o'd when they look over their shoulders at the leaders who put them there, and when they realize they're all alone in the global community. The United Nations, as weak and corrupt as it is, is the best place to deal with global problems. We are part of the "Family of Nations." It is time we began acting like one again. Regarding this administration, the People should say "NEXT!"[quote]

With the family that you profess to want control things. Please have them take the knife out of our backs first.France , Russia, China , Germany all had part of the oil for food programs and are still selling arms to terrorist groups that must be part of the family of nations you so support.
Stand with friends like what you are wanting us to kiss up to , I pray we stand alone.

:bunny:
Oh and that is respectfully to you ladderwell.

Ladderwell
08-23-06, 10:55 PM
[QUOTE ]The US can withstand heavy losses, and not afraid to take it on the chin, below the belt, or toe to toe, but the People are going to be p.o'd when they look over their shoulders at the leaders who put them there, and when they realize they're all alone in the global community. The United Nations, as weak and corrupt as it is, is the best place to deal with global problems. We are part of the "Family of Nations." It is time we began acting like one again. Regarding this administration, the People should say "NEXT!"[quote]

With the family that you profess to want control things. Please have them take the knife out of our backs first.France , Russia, China , Germany all had part of the oil for food programs and are still selling arms to terrorist groups that must be part of the family of nations you so support.
Stand with friends like what you are wanting us to kiss up to , I pray we stand alone.

:bunny:
Oh and that is respectfully to you ladderwell.

There are 192 member states in the UN besides the four (4) you mention. World politics, and special interests make for strange bedfellows. This administration has shown a woeful lack of judgement in how to stay in the game of managing global issues. It is murky, and smells bad. The fight, as it is portrayed by our poor leadership, cannot be won with guns and bullets. For many, that is all they see and want. For the cooler heads, which better prevail, we cannot be afraid to get into the complexities of what it takes to keep the peace, and make the world safer.
--------------------------
Do you see anything in this preamble to the UN Charter not worth fighting for:

Charter of the United Nations
Preamble
We the Peoples of the United Nations Determined
to save succeeding generations from the scourge of war, which twice in our lifetime has brought untold sorrow to mankind, and

to reaffirm faith in fundamental human rights, in the dignity and worth of the human person, in the equal rights of men and women and of nations large and small, and

to establish conditions under which justice and respect for the obligations arising from treaties and other sources of international law can be maintained, and

to promote social progress and better standards of life in larger freedom,

And for these Ends
to practice tolerance and live together in peace with one another as good neighbors, and

to unite our strength to maintain international peace and security, and

to ensure by the acceptance of principles and the institution of methods, that armed force shall not be used, save in the common interest, and

to employ international machinery for the promotion of the economic and social advancement of all peoples,

Have Resolved to Combine our Efforts to Accomplish these Aims
Accordingly, our respective Governments, through representatives assembled in the city of San Francisco, who have exhibited their full powers found to be in good and due form, have agreed to the present Charter of the United Nations and do hereby establish an international organization to be known as the United Nations.

------------------------

I pray for the success of the UN. If it fails, we fall into anarchy again. Also, we do not have enough money or manpower to "stand alone" and fight the path this generation has chosen for the next 300 years. We'll run out people to sacrafice on the altar of stubborn Nationalism, and mortgage our country to the point where we will not be able to make the payments, and then we'll become enslaved to those holding the bonds and notes (the Republican rich and the oil states). I know it's not me.

Good night.
*
Respectfully,
Ladderwell
SF

OLE SARG
08-24-06, 10:46 AM
If you think ms kerry and ms murtha are heros, YOUR SICK!!!! Apparently you have not read any history on these two baffoons!

Your rhetoric is getting very old!!!!! Come off your sanctimonious attitude.

I did not go off half-cocked (about 40 years ago you would have seen half-cocked), I am stating facts.

AND FINALLY, the only thing the U. N. is good at is issuing half-cocked resolutions!!!!!!!

SEMPER FI,

Static_Sky25
08-24-06, 11:21 AM
Opinions of Murtha and Kerry are meaningless. We need to take an objective view of the facts of this administration. Nothing that they can say will change the truth on the ground.

Regarding control of congress, at the end of 8 years of a Republican administration I envision a political cartoon of a bunch of grossly obese fat pigs (upper 3% of the population represented by Republicans) wearing tuxedos around a huge table filled with food and drink, stupified to the point of near unconsciousness from their orgy of power and money grabbing at the expense of the People.

The Democrats, if not perceived as a Messiah, should certainly be identified as the lesser of 2 evils in leading the country out of the Hell into which we've been put, and getting deeper into it every day.

Respectfully,
Ladderwell
SF

you acctually had me waivering there for a second... just up until you refered to the dems as messiah... I'd say that's a stretch, I'd also say you missed the point... the point is it's not just the republicans who are reveling in their little raises and such while they vote down body armor... whens the last time you saw EITHER of your heroes wearing jeans and a t-shirt like a common man... you haven't is the answer because these people think they deserve to make mucho cash for putting our troops in danger then b*tching about it

They Voted For a war in Iraq otherwise there wouldn't be one. we all know how congress works there has to be a majority to do anything...

Ladderwell
08-24-06, 11:24 PM
you acctually had me waivering there for a second... just up until you refered to the dems as messiah... I'd say that's a stretch, I'd also say you missed the point... the point is it's not just the republicans who are reveling in their little raises and such while they vote down body armor... whens the last time you saw EITHER of your heroes wearing jeans and a t-shirt like a common man... you haven't is the answer because these people think they deserve to make mucho cash for putting our troops in danger then b*tching about it

They Voted For a war in Iraq otherwise there wouldn't be one. we all know how congress works there has to be a majority to do anything...

Static_Sky25,

I was referring the Democrats as "the Messiah," with tongue-in-cheek. I know there is a lot of negative towards them (me), and much of it rightfully assigned to them. However, we must remember that it was the power of the presidency (and his administration) and control over how Intgelligence was reported that convinced the majority of Congress to back the war.

The Bush administration's gang (Cheney and Rumsfield), had been halted in the first Gulf War by "George the Wise (I just made that up. Think it will stick?). Because "George the Dumb" couldn't stand up to the brighter and more forceful Cheney and Rumsfield, they were allowed to bald facedly manipulate the Intelligence so the American Public would "buy in." It had my support until all of the reasons for us being in Iraq were proven absolutely false. In another time and place, an honorable leader would have "fallen on his sword." Now we just have bad decisions following bad decisions, and too many good and patriotic Americans deny the truth. It hurts too much, but the lessons we learned so many years ago, showed us that we are strong enough as individuals and as a nation to face adversity head on. We need to turn towards the truth, and leave the falsehoods behind. The Democrats are the best game in town, or at the very least the least worst) for giving us the hope of truth in government. They are the only ones pointing the way out of the Hell we were lied into believing was truth, justice, and the Amercian way.

Regarding their dress, you cannot tell a book by its cover. Years ago, when I first grew my hair long (early 70s), in my immature youth, for me it represented "a better way (peace, justice, honor, etc)." After a while I saw a lot of "long haired people" robbing banks, prostitution, heroin addiciton, and worse, and realized that the "long-hair" values were inside a person, not outside. So I cut my hair short (for comfort and style), and still have my "long-hair" values cooking.

Hope to see you at the polls. It's time for the American Values to be represented in all branches of government again. It's been sorely missed.

Take care and God bless.

Respectfully,
Ladderwell
SF

Ladderwell
08-25-06, 12:16 AM
If you think ms kerry and ms murtha are heros, YOUR SICK!!!! Apparently you have not read any history on these two baffoons!

Your rhetoric is getting very old!!!!! Come off your sanctimonious attitude.

I did not go off half-cocked (about 40 years ago you would have seen half-cocked), I am stating facts.

AND FINALLY, the only thing the U. N. is good at is issuing half-cocked resolutions!!!!!!!

SEMPER FI,


Please do not get your attention diverted by the Murtha and Kerry sideshow. We need better leaders, and because of what the Republicans have done, they have lost too much credibility to even begin a turnaround. The only way to reverse the slide is to elect a Democratic congress and president. Even this will only begin to the needed unscrewing of the mess.
*
Respectfully,
Ladderwell
SF