Losing Our Traditions

[thedrifter]

The Marine Corps is proud of its storied past as well as its status today as America's elite crisis response force. We enjoy this reputation in large part due to the traditions, customs, and courtesies that set Marines apart from the other military Services.
However, there are some who would argue that we are losing touch with our baseline traditions (knowledge of our history, every Marine a rifleman, pride in uniform and appearance, respect toward seniors, special trust and confidence, etc.) and that this widening gulf threatens the very fabric of our Corps.

Because the Marine Corps has had to kowtow, in some respects, to the pressures applied to it by society at large, as well as Government edicts, there is a sense that Marines today are no longer forged with the same mettle as the Marines of yesteryear and thus, traditions keep slipping away.

Are such things as the "Crucible" and "Core Values" just Band-Aids on a more serious wound resulting from the lessening values of society? And if so, is it wrong for the Marine Corps to have different expectations and standards than society at large?


Sempers,

Roger

[USMC-FO]

Roger I don't think I would view "the cruciible" or "Core Values" as band aids. I like to think it is these things that instill our distinctivness in all Marines while in training and beyond. I would think and hope today--certainly as we've all experienced in the past-- that the youngsters headed into the Corp come from all walks of life and backgrounds. Many do, as they have in the past, embody some pretty lousy civilian habits and standards. I am still inclined to believe that our boot training and the additional training in Division go a long way towards making better men and women as well, obviously, Marines. As, seemingly, society is running at a pretty low level of standards I take pleasure is seeing the current batch of young Marines locked on to a path of higher achievement than society as a whole. I obviously think Marines should continue to operate to a higher level of expectations and standards. In doing so all society will benefit in the long run. Guess that makes me optimistic.

Semper Fi !

[firstsgtmike]

I think on this one, Roger is hung up on "Old Corps", "New Corps".

I think the first Marines at Tun's Tavern must have been supernatural phenoms, because the the Corps has been going downhill ever since, and we're STILL the greatest.

Semper Fi

[Barndog]

Ok, I spoke to Bone in private about this early this morning. So, let's hear yer take on THIS one.

I would seriously hope you ALL are engaged in the 'Call To Arms' discussion. If not, I think your integrity as a Marine is seriously in question.

Why?

Well......... when Bones and I were in (and I'd hope for some backup here - from both sides of the fence - BEFORE and AFTER) -

We didn't have political opinions. We didn't talk about them. We were fVcking Marines. And, it was that simple.
If you started into a discussion about politics, the next words that 'came down' were UCMJ ARTICLE 134 - Conduct Unbecoming a Marine - and that was where political dicussions ended.

When did UCMJ Article 134 get rescinded?

If anyone can answer that, I think we may have a winner to alot of the questions we have.

Semper FI

[firstsgtmike]

Barndog,

I was in from 58-78. In a sense, I am amongst the last batch of the "Old Corps", who retired with 19 years, six months which counted for a full 20. (I guess we worked harder than the guys in the "New Corps" so they had to hang around longer to make up for it.

As far as the Vietnam Era vets are concerned, I was probably around both before and after them.

Your post was right on. I NEVER heard a discussion about politics. We weren't interested, because we had a job to do.

In a sense, we didn't work for the President, we worked for the CMC. HE worked for the President.

In a more practical sense, we ALL worked for the next in line up the Chain of Command. Few of us worked for Officers. We worked for our squad leaders, plt. sgts., section leaders, etc. Only as you advanced in rank did you work for an officer, and that depended upon your position more than it did rank.

You did NOT question orders. That was not part of your job description. Someone else was getting paid to worry about the big picture. You were getting paid to carry out your portion of the job to the best of your ability.

"Any Questions? Save them until you get home and then ask your mother."
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That said, there's more.

In 1968, after I returned from VN, I was on Recruiting Duty. I was the only active duty Marine living in the County. As a Recruiter, and as the Marine Corps Representative in San Mateo County, I had to answer a thousand questions asked by civilians every day.

In the beginning, other than my own personal experiences, they knew more than I did about what was going on, what was happening.

A Recruiter must be involved in Public Relations. I joined the Lions Club and got involved with or spoke before every business, social, and service group I could think of.

It's not like living aboard base, or in Jacksonville, or Oceanside.
Seldom was it that I ran into someone on active duty, and only if they were home on leave. Not everyone I met was pro-military, or pro-Vietnam. Hell, there was a draft counseling office one block away from MY office.

I wore my uniform seven days a week. I was a target seven days a week. A thousand questions, a thousand comments every day. Some were easy, some were hard, some were impossible.

Remember now, at that time I had nine years in the Corps. I had never followed politics, hell, I never voted. I never questioned, I never doubted. Like the Corps, I thought that the politicians were all doing the right things, for the right reasons.

One of the first things I learned was that not EVERYTHING could be viewed within the limited terms of black and white. Politicians and policy makers were required to consider global effects and significance of their decisions.

Some were out for themselves, some had a hidden agenda, some were pandering to vested interests. Who can you trust? Whose word can you rely on? Who can you count on to be there for you?

For me, from experience, and my newfound knowledge, the answer was obvious. ONLY a fellow MARINE!

My epiphany was thirty five years ago. NOTHING has happened since then to make me change my mind.
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Whatever the topic, the anti's can score valid points, because this is an imperfect world.

Yes, make your case, state your position, have your input considered. But, do the right thing. Once a decision is made, lead, follow, or get the hell out.

Unfortunately, this is still an imperfect world, and the right thing is not done all the time.

I'll accept it, I'll put up with it, I'll tolerate it. UNTIL a man puts his life on the line for you. THEN you either back him up, or start running NOW!
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Many years ago there was a WWII movie, the army in Europe. Eddie Albert was chicken sh it Battallion CO who wanted to look good so he could run for politics when he got home. Jack Palance was, well, Jack Palance.

Albert sent Palance and his platoon out to act as rear guard for a withdrawal. Albert promised him artillery and mortar support. Palance told him, "you ****ed up three times already, don't do it again. The support better be there if I call for it."

Palance's platoon got overrun and wiped out by panzer tanks. The battallion was running so fast and Albert took the artillery and mortars with HIM to protect HIS ass.

Palance tried to take out a tank with a grenade. He got the tank, but the tank rolled over him, crushing his arm under the treads before it stopped. He had to cut off his arm to get out from under the tank.

He stumbled and staggered for hours, following the bugout route the battallion had taken. When he caught up with it, he went into the CP tent, pulled out a hand grenade, rammed it into ALbert's mouth, down his throat, pulled the pin, and staggered out of the tent.

I think every politician in Washington should be made to see the ending of that movie, and be given a photo of the grenade scene to hang on their wall.

The plaque under it should read: Be prepared to support them if you order men to fight your battles for you."
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But of course, that's only MY opinion.

[Barrio_rat]

Well stated, 1stSgt! I like that opinion. I do remember once having a conversation about politics with a fellow Marine. It was when George Bush was first running for president against Dukakis. My buddy was from Mass and said, if Dukakis is going to do for our country what he did for Massachusetts we are going to be in big trouble! I can remember some conversations that were over political issues (firearms being the big one) but nothing outwardly about politicians or issues/measures. I personally voted only to find out later that none of my votes counted as they were all absentee. I always thought that was strange and it p.ssed me off a bit - here I am (one of many), with my ass on the line and my voice ain't heard...

With this line of thought/conversation... When I was watching the last presidential election and the live coverage of the results (yep, stayed up late that night), I noticed Marines that were not in uniform. (how'd I know they were Marines, haircut, bearing, stature and they had on the grey rain coat) Not many, 'bout 5 - 15 of 'em at the Bush camp in Texas. Cameras, I think, knew they were Marines too as it was on them a lot. So, If a service member can go out in support of one they want elected why can't they go out in opposition? Personally, I had a feeling a SNCO probably had a talk with 'em (they were young) the next morning - or should have. Yet, the damage was done. I'm sure more than myself knew those were Marines there.

[MillRatUSMC]

FirstSgtMike isn't it ironic that a real life hero, plays a coward. <br />
Here's some info on a real life hero, who many Marines are indebted to. <br />
<br />
Eddie Albert's Story <br />
based on the book &quot;Stars In Blue&quot;...

[MillRatUSMC]

Eddie Albert real name Eddie Albert Heimberger, who the subject of that story.
A real life hero, who states that he was only doing "his job".
I believe that he was awarded the Silver Star for the action described in the story of Eddie Albert.
Who part of our tradition, because he part of the history of Tarawa.
So, I'm not breaking away in my responce.

Semper Fidelis
Ricardo

[firstsgtmike]

Ricardo,

I didn't know any of the details you provided. Thank you.

I knew that Eddie Albert was a war hero, and I have always appreciated his work as an actor. My knowledge of him as a man, ended there.

My hero in the story was Jack Palance.