The United Nations

[OLE SARG]

Now here is the typical collection of idiots!!!!!! Talk about an impotent organization, even tons of viagra could not help this outfit.
The UN is a waste of money and a breeding den for thieves and crooks (I should talk about the UN, look at the U. S. Congress and ms jefferson taking bribes and getting caught with $90,000 in cash in his home freezer - HEY but we all do that).
I cannot think of a time when this organization did ANYTHING for the good of the World.

SEMPER FI,

[Mike McIntyre]

Sarge,
How can you take anyone seriously wearing a baby blue helmet, riding around in equipment painted white and carrying weapons that usually are not loaded? <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
Let the Military (NATO) people enforce and let the coddlers coddle.

[rktect3j]

I have been saying the UN needs to go for at least ten years now. At least ten years, if not 15. What a waste. Tell me exactly how the UN is UNITED in any way shape or form? What is it they do anyhow? We need to start from scratch on this one gents. Sometimes when something gets broke, you can't fix it.

[Ladderwell]

Since it was proven that there were no Weapons of Mass Destruction in Iraq, and no apologies were given from our administration for forceful r&#233;gime change, and thumbing our noses at the UN, I have been ashamed to be an American. I have not flown the flag that was draped over my brother's coffin, and see the damage done by the Republican administration as causing trouble for the next 300 years.

I am a teacher, and influence my students to be good citizens, and many of whom who have followed in my own military footsteps. My "kids" have been in every conflict since Somalia. This Iraq debacle is putting too many of my/our/your "kids" in harm's way, with ZERO global support, and NO END in sight. Children and grandchildren, your's and mine, will pay the price for the next few centuries as the troubles settle, or "the genie gets put back in the bottle." The Republicans, elected by the "Christian Right" because they are "conservative" or "pro-life," have taken the Texan "cowboy" attitude, and crapped on working cooperatively to resolve international problems. We must all support the UN. It is the only tool we have to provide a lasting peace.

In studying history, the UN was preceded by the League of Nations, which was torn apart by people wanting to destroy it, instead of working together to solve global problems. Our UN is OUR UN. It belongs to the world, and is the only legitimate global organization to have the credibility and consensus to work cooperatively with other civilized nations to deal with problems of planet-wide scope.

As veterans, we understand the duty of those in uniform to support the chain-of-command, right up to the CIC. As former military (or any other civilian for that matter), we have the duty and responsibility to elect good leaders to protect those in uniform, and ensure that their patriotism is not abused. We have to be the best citizens we can be, and fight like the devil-dog to protect not only those in uniform, but our own citizenry and the Environment. That's why our job as gray-haired, been-there, done-that "wise" people, is so critically important to how our world works.

If we destroy the UN, what will follow is more anarchy, another real war of global scope, with the destruction that will make WWII look like a walk in the park.

Speaking of WWII, on the eve of the end of the war in Europe, "the greatest radio broadcast in history" was played on the air. It was recorded, and although I was only introduced to it a few short months ago, it is highly relevant, and for want of a better term, "entertaining." I recommend you check it out: http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4668028

One small thought before I leave you: Because of our "going it alone" self-righteousness over the past six (6) years, the world hates us, and hates us more and more each day. The only way we can begin the very long process of turning that around, is to change the faces and politics of the people we show the world. Even if our present administration were to come up with the perfect solution today, it would fail to be successful because of the loss of credibility we have experienced since the invasion of Iraq. We need a new Administration to do that job. We need a citizenry that can look at the big picture of the world and where it’s going, when they choose for whom to vote. Do we demand that a pro-lifer gets in and sacrifice thousands of lives and treasure in exchange for "getting a Conservative" into Office? Which child do we save, the few today, or the millions tomorrow? It's not an easy choice, and we need to think it through, but we have tough decisions to make while the world is on fire.

Thank you, and may God bless you and protect you all.
*
Respectfully,
An old Hippie Commie Pinko (yeah, I know I'm dating myself).

SF!

[Gary Hall]

Ole Sarge: Thank you for your views, I am in agreement. However I am thankful for the effort of John Bolton and hope he gets confirmed, he has the intellect and wit and views that are respected and needed, I always listen to him at every opportunity. I hope he lasts a long time. Gary Hall, Tyler, TX

[sgt tony]

Well you can President Bush for think sending our troops over but he had the congress and senate to veto this and they voted to approve this so get mad but at all that said yes. The Un has been a good think at the start but they have very little purpose. They can't agree with there selfs and lest not try to get them to make a statement that is strong against Iran, Seria or South America they don't want to hurt there feeling.

[OLE SARG]

It bothers me that there are all these idiot representatives from all these countries that could care less about the U. S., JUST SEND ME MY FOREIGN AID!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! That is the mentality of about all the idiots in the U. N.!!!! Bolton could be good BUT he is one of the good ones in a pot of idiots!!
Just one of the raunchy things the U. N. can take credit for - the food for oil scandal!!!!

SEMPER FI,

[rktect3j]

Last time I checked with the far leftists of this country I was told that Bush stole the election in 2000 and 2004. If this is so, by means of vote fraud and fixing of the vote counting machines, how is it that the "christian right" voted us into this mess? You seem to have some sort of agenda here with your blurb. Spit it out already and stop hiding behind that humongously rediculous diatribe of apopalyptical future you invented and posted. Say it like you mean it already.

[Mike McIntyre]

Why do we care what the “International Community” thinks of us?<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>
UN: Crooks, Thugs, Tramps, Thieves, Liars, Haters.

[rktect3j]

I am a little worried about you. I read your profile which shows you as a “registered user” not a “Marine” even though you have listed duty stations. Were you in the Marines or not? On this site you can still be a user even if never having served but I would like a clarification on the matter.

After I read your post I thought to myself that this is not the typical post one might find from a Marine. It didn’t read as if a Marine wrote it. Bells kept going off. Things like “I am ashamed to be an American.” Or that you “haven’t flown the flag that was draped over my brothers coffin.” I am sorry for your loss but still…flags went off when reading it. There is no reason to say these types of things unless you never wanted to have been a Marine in the first place. You go on to say that your “kids follow in your own military footsteps.” Without mention of being in the Corps footsteps. You mention more about “your/our” children in some sort of emotional appeal to us here for increasing “global support” or internationalism. I don’t know of any Marine who is looking for such a thing. More flags. You mention that we are putting our children in harms way when that is exactly what the Corps is about, right or wrong, but you want to pretend that these Marines we are sending are actually children in need of coddling in the way you write. Your attitude about these people serving who need this coddling rings bells in me. We ARE talking about full grown adults here who join an all voluntary military. So again more flags go up.

You write “We must all support the UN. It is the only tool we have to provide a lasting peace.” If you believe that ideoligic drivel I am very confused about what you learned while in the military. Again flags, bells and whistles go off.

Then, “fight like the devil-dog”. You have a real way with words my friend but….

“Which child do we save, the few today, or the millions tomorrow? It's not an easy choice, and we need to think it through, but we have tough decisions to make while the world is on fire.” Bells and whistles. Exactly why our mission is so important now. Stem the flow today so that our children’s future will be better. For some reason I think you have this backwords.

Then after you bash the “Christian right” for solely electing Bush you leave off with “Thank you, and may God bless you and protect you all.” It sounds like you are a part of this Christian right. Not only intellectually dishonest but hypocritical as well.

Which leaves me with your last.

“Respectfully,
An old Hippie Commie Pinko (yeah, I know I'm dating myself).

SF!”
Which is the only mention or reference to the Corps I can find here. “SF!” right after “old hippie commie pinko.” What is that all about? You have to see that I have questions about you.

Feel free to call me out if I am incorrect in my analysis of you. I’ll be happy to retract my inferences here if I am wrong and apologize as well.

[OLE SARG]

That is part of the BIG problem the U. S. is facing now - worrying about what other countries think of us. BS - they could care less about the U. S. and it's citizens as long as they get their FOREIGN AID!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! We should send all these FOREIGN REPRESENTATIVES back where they came from, raze the interior of the U. N., and start selling condos!!! Would do more good than the U. N. is doing now. As a tax-payer, I AM GETTING SICK AND TIRED OF SUPPORTING A BUNCH OF NO-GOODS WHO'S ONLY CLAIM TO FAME IS HOW MANY PARKING TICKETS THEY HAVE NOT PAID!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
U. N. SUCK AND BLOWS!!!

SEMPER FI,

[yellowwing]

Tell Connie and her boss! So far they are doing good on the current crisis. Its going to take a bit longer to drain the swamp with all these Hezbollah alligators.

[redneck13]

:mad: :flag: :thumbdown Are you DRUNK? You say some horrible things here. I agree with rkj, bells and whistle's goes off and you are talking out both sides of your mouth. You say you're an educator? What are you teaching your student's if you are ashamed to be called an "American?" What sort of non sense are you blabbering about? Ain't no "MARINE" that would say...."I'm ashamed to be called an American." What if one of your student's was on this site and read this? What would they think of you? Man, you need some help.

The UN....What does a "resolution" do? "NOTHING!!" I think as Yellowing said, ask George and Condi!! Let them do what need's to be done. The UN is worthless, has and will always be worthless. Dat burn, so many good replies on here, I think it's been covered well. Thanks Sarge, great topic. SF Now carry on all "YOU GOOD AND BLESSED MAGGOTT'S!!"

[Ladderwell]

Gentlemen,

If you are a USMC vet, you are no longer on active duty. When we were in, right or wrong, we followed orders right up the chain of command. Now that we are OUT, we have a sacred responsibility to elect good leaders, to have a healthy chain of command for those in uniform today, to minimize unnecessary risk of sons and daughters, fathers, cousins, brothers and sisters, and to protect their patriotism, the country and its ideals for which they volunteered. I've got skin in the game, lots of it, and I'm not going to let some remf like the current leaders in the White House waste them for no good reason, not without a fight.

We, as Marine Corps vets, need to stand four square behind our troops, all of them, every bloody one of the in uniform, or who will be in uniform. We need to stand up and shout that wrong is wrong. We have something special about us, and all the world knows it. We are strong physically, emotionally and mentally, and stronger than most because of what we have been through individually, and as an institution. It is our blessed heritage to have been our nations' spear-point, or knife's edge. When we are thrust into battle, or are following any order, we do not have our own hand on the shaft of he spear or the hilt of the sword. It is someone else's, basically the top-down command structure, which I support, but as a democracy, we, especially us former Marines, have the supreme responsibility to be the best citizens we can be to protect our troops, our environment, and this "Grand Experiment" called the United States. Hell, we need to be the best citizens in the country.

The monumental wrong-headed decisions by our current leaders have alienated and made enemies of the bulk of the world. What is that going to do for us? What are we/you/us going to do to make the world a better and safer place for the future? We created "10,000 Osama Bin Ladens" by going into Iraq without global consensus, the WMD reason being proven FALSE. Who cares what the rest of the world thinks? I do, and those who ignore that do so at their peril, and their children's peril, and grandchildren's, and on and on. We live in a "global village," sharing one world, one atmosphere, one environment. The special interest groups pulling the strings, or sitting in seats of power, have thumbed their noses at the Kyoto Agreement, which most of the world signed on to in order to protect our environment. But the US, the "big dog" said "Up yours." It does not make me proud to be an American, not with what is being done in MY/YOUR/OUR name.

As Americans, the choices you and I make today will have a ripple affect way beyond our own little lives, gently rocking the boat, or tossing it about with stormy waves of the future. We are all either part of the solution, or part of the problem.

I'm an old man now, with a son who was an Army combat medic, and now with three grandchildren. I do not want to buy into Armageddon or Rapture and leave the world blasted, scorched or poisoned for them. I do not think you want to do so either, and I know I'm not wrong.

I worked in General Chapman's and General Lew Walt's comm center in Alexandria, VA, in the Navy Annex overlooking the Pentaton, and the bunk in my barracks looked out the window into Arlington National Cemetery. There are good reasons for most of those buried there to be there. I am committed to do everything in my power to protect this country, the Truth, Honor, Justice, and "the American Way" that has been so sorely lacking in our elected leaders for the past six years.

So, instead of infighting, instead of being part of the problem, we each need to daily commit to being part of the solution. We need to get a view from the Huey or the Harrier to see and understand the bigger picture. As citizens, we are supposed to try to do that, and care for future generations.

In oriental countries, expecially China, there is a lot of "Ancestor(sic) Worship." I've thought about why that is. In doing so, and studying why, I found that it is because the "Honorable Ancestors" deserved it. Their actions, and their affects on future generations, were welcomed by their children, grandchildren, great grandchildren, etc. We should all strive to want to be honored by our decendants. We do so by acting honorably. We need to give them good leaders, a safe world, and a healthy environment.

Winston Churchill said that he "has no use for a man who learns new things that affect fundamental positions and remains unchanged." How will we react?

The Norman Corwin radio broadcast I referred to in my earlier email will perhaps take you back to your parents or grandparents time at the end of WWII. It is a good listen, and I recommend it. One of the respondents to my earlier email had a Nam flag symbol on it. For him, or any of us, I recommend The Siege At Dien Bien Phu as a must read to get the big picture. That was recommended by a Nam vet Captain who was a combat engineer there. He said that if something like that happens again, he's putting his son on a train to Canada. Bowled me over.

Well, I've prattled on, but I have given a lot of thought to what it takes to have a good and healthy government and country. One of the critical factors has been the separation of church and state, always a biggie in my education, and now we have the Christian Right in this country voting in blocks that sway elections in such a way as to invite hot coals to be heaped onto our heads. Sure, the leaders are "pro-life" or "protect marriage," but our world is made up of many other factors (war, peace, environment, municipal infrastructure, armies, poverty, education, etc.) Religion is a personal relationship with God. It must be sanitized from all goverments lest they gain too much power and bring us all to unnecessary doom. Which minister is right, the Muslim or the Christian fundamentalist? Argue about over coffee, not with arms.

Please, do not question my USMC veteranship. All of us here are brothers. The pain and blood we feel and spill is our shared lot. We do it if we have to, but very few of us throw ourselves onto a sword for no good reason, and by God, we cannot let our shipmates be put into harm's way for no good reason.

May God bless you and keep you all.

Hope to see you on guard duty in Heaven. ;=)
*
Dave

Semper Fidelis

[rktect3j]

Great speach.

Good luck with that.

Semper Fi.

[redneck13]

:!: :idea: :thumbup: Dave. Politics is one subject that is hard to understand most of the time. Sometimes it just fry's me poor lil' ol' pee brain where I want to run outside and just get in my deer stand and stay there. I have reflected about what you've said and I think you make some good points. I for one will not attack you, as you've shown respect, and "True Marine Value's." Mistakes were made. Not only by this admin. but in those of the past, and I'm sure there'll be more blunder's made in the future. I can't just blame the current admin. And I'm not a repub/dem/ind, I'm a redneck. I look back where in history of our Nation, we have made so many blunder's. That's my only come back to what you have said about the current admin.
As far as China? I'm not so sure about their Ancestor's, and doing what they really wanted for their future children etc. China "makes" their students at a very early age read about "Communism." Whereas Japan? I could see/can see/ they follow their ancestor's ways, 'cept for wanting to go to war, yet they did in Iraq.
Dave? How do you fight MONEY? This is what "elects" our people. They get lot's of money, like Hillary has what over 20 million, or 200 million?, ready for her campaign? And whomever is going to run on the other ticket's, I don't know how much, or if they are for sure nuff going to run. She apparently by what all see, think, she will. Yes we go to the polls and vote. But how many buy into with all the assertiveness, grandjure, "ain't nobody else" attitude, instead of looking at the "person?" This is my complaint. I never vote in a primary, you declare your politic's then. If you decide to change your mind? Sorry, you voted one party or the other. Then you're stuck. Then people are so fed up with all the "crud" in Washington, that stuff between your toes, they just get fed up and say, "the hell with it, my vote don't count, and they don't vote."
I've said this as other's have said here, and I've written to Congressman and told them the same thing. One of these days, there's going to be one hell of a fight in America. An Uprising to the likes nobody has witnessed before. Just because of how our Country has been ripped apart, sold off, for "greed."
The one's in Arlington? There are many whom rest there that also fought in other conflicts/wars/police actions/ whatever term was used, and some of our Finest are being laid to rest there now. I don't see that as maybe you do. I see those that are in any resting place, whom have died fighting for their country, right/wrong, not as a loss, but as one who did the right thing, or at least at some point and time felt it was right. Isn't it too bad we don't know what they were thinking before they died? Wouldn't it been great to have that knowledge? I understand your view, respect it too, I'm just putting a little bit of what goes thru this pee brain of mine, so don't take it as a hit on you. Not intended.
I wish I had the answer. I don't. American's, for those whom think about America, (not a cut on you Dave at all), as I know you think about America's future, which you put so well. American's, especially like our young American's? I've asked them, some I know...."What do you think about what is going on in the world?" They, not all but many, have replied...."Like What?" "You know, the War, gas prices, oil, terror?" "Uh, I've heard about it, I don't get involved." I leave you with this, scratchin' my head. SF Bro.

[FistFu68]

:usmc: HEADQUARTER'S MARINE CORPS! HENDERSON HALL,WAS LOCATED IN ARLINGTON ~VIRGINIA! NOT ALEXANDRIA~BUBBA!!! :usmc:(LONG LIVE FORCE):iwo:

[Ladderwell]

Well Sweetpea, you got me! I obviously spent too many nights at Matt Kane's. You do have to admit that I was close enough for carpet-bombing. ;=). I probably could not draw a line separating the two towns to save my life. Never did well with a compass.

You're right, I stand corrected, and have been wrong since I showed up at the joint in the spring of 1970. I hope I'm not the only one to believe that. As I recall, there were never any huge "Arlington" signs coming over the bridge, only "Alexandria" and "Columbia Pike." I will make the correction, take my plexiglass naval award think about it), and go quietly into the night, or at least into the next room.

Thanks for the correction. I'll do an extra 100 pushups.

Take care and God speed all.
*
Dave

SF

[FistFu68]

:marine: JUST DON'T DO ANY PUSH~UP'S,ON 14TH.& U.~BROTHER! YOU'R LIABLE TO CATCH SOMETHING~BETHESDA,NAVAL CAN'T CURE~LOL!!! WELCOME HOME MARINE! 10/4:marine:

[Ladderwell]

Dear SSgt. Wind'nFace,

Thank you for taking pause. I've been doing a lot of that as I've grown older too.

Everyone makes mistakes, this administration, and all of the others. We just need to make certain we do all we can to not compound them, or prevent them from becoming collossal. Madeline Albright, our former Secretary of State, and whose Jewish family was killed by the German facists, recently stated that going into Iraq alone may have been the worst mistake in our country's history. What comes to mind for me is whacking at a hornet's nest, or the Sorcerer's Apprentice in the Disney movie where Mickey chops at the broom and creates lots and lots of other brooms, with nary an end in sight. The world simply won't work with us with the faces we currently present to them. We all need to weigh our decisions, and make the "best" one, or the "least worse" one we can, even if it means voting for someone with whom we disagree on points that are important to us.

Regarding the Chinese, I fully agree with you that the Communists have hed negative sway since Mao Tse Done (sic), and poison the minds of their youth with that wrong-headed philosophy. It is over the early 5,000 years of their history that ancestor worship has developed and been refined. Lots of "joss sticks" are lit in thousands of shrines throughout the Orient. There is something positive to be taken from that experience.

Regarding the Japanese, I recently read The Rise and Fall of the Japanese Empire, and although I've studied Bushido and oriental martial arts for over 20 years, after reading that I came to the conclusion that Americans can NEVER become "true Samurai." WWII showed how ingrained their way of life is, and only people who have been born to it can instinctively understand it. For us, it would be like us wanting to become fish. The fish who were born in the water have first, and the only claim.

Wind'nFace, fighting money is a tough row to hoe. I suppose we have to fight fire with fire, and pool our nickels and dimes (or 5s, 10s, 20s, and 100s) to combat the special interests whose only special interest is their own selfish selves. We need special interests who work for the 97% of the people in the country and the world, and not the 3% of the obscenely rich who dont' want to give it up. "The world is mine!" is their philosophy. T'ain't right.

The current special interests pulling the strings in Washington are also pulling the strings of the media. Rush Limbaugh (sic), FOX television (one of their reporters recently became the president's Press Secretary) lots of supposedly Christians acting unchristian (Who Would Jesus Bomb?), all combine to be a powerful influence on the population. As responsible citizens, we need to not buy it hook, line and sinker. We need to be thinkers instead, and when it comes time to vote, vote as educated people.

I get my news from Leatherneck Magazine, Christian Science Monitor, Boston.com, the Albany Times Union, AP news wire, and National Public Radio. Theirs is not the whole truth, but more of the truth resides there than in most other media. I also read a lot, and though it can sometimes be difficult, I balance my "hard reading" with plenty of fun reading, though at times it is hard to separate the two.

Let's talk about (lightning rod) Hillary. I do not know how she would be as president. Unfortunately we have not seen much of her in action since she and Bubba left the White House. I do have a tremendous amount of respect for her ability to roll with the punches life has thrown at her. I also applauded her attempt to make national health insurance a reality, and unfortunately, the special interests (pharmaceutical and insurance companies) had bought off the majority of both houses of congress, and our health care system is still great for the minority, and stinks for the people who cannot afford $12,000 per year for a decent health plan. She was vilified by the republican majority, and the health care system has only gotten worse since then. She was right. The special interests were wrong, and tens of millions of people were sold on the idea that she was wrong. Bad dog!

I will watch Hillary closely, and unless she really blows it, she's got my vote. If Hillary is nominated for president, and is put up against the likes of Condeleza (sic) Rice, who the world will never accept, as they do not accept her credibility as Secretary of State today)m the best choice for today and tomorrow is Hillary, as she will be the beginning of the beginning of solving the problems created by the monumental blunders of the current administration.

Wind'nFace. Thanks for engaging in dialog with me. Your thoughts have also given me pause to think, and it is appreciated. I'm glad you write your congressman.

Before I shut up, the topic of the UN is what started this exchange. For all its wrongs, it does not outweigh the good it does, or the promise of a better and safe life for us all. You may want to read the UN's Declaration of Human Rights, I believe originally proposed by Eleanor Roosevelt (sic). I'm not sure of where it stands today as a part of the UN charter, but it is also a good read.

Okay, we've talked enough, and as good citizens, now we need to commit to doing something, anything, even if it is only a little, but do it every day. Become informed, and act.

Take care.

Keep your powder dry.
*
Dave :=)

SF!

[redneck13]

:idea: :thumbup: Wow!! I am impressed, seriously, of your knowledge. I for one, I'm not much of a reader. So that sorta leaves me with just what is going on today, and not as well informed as a Lot of Marine's, including you are. I just don't trust, I guess would be my excuse, many author's, as they impose their thought's, idea's, right/wrong, on us, to just give their perspective. History books? I have seen and helped my grandson's with History, which for example....There isn't much in today's History classroom books, (maybe collegiate) that even tell the real truth about Nam. I may be to closed minded. I try not to be. I agree with you too about mistakes made. I just want somebody to "LEARN FROM THE MISTAKES MADE BY OTHER'S, SO IT'S NOT REPEATED." This is what I'm not seeing. With the current admin., and with other's to come, possibly. I want to hear good "Substantive" solutions, not rhetoric, which in my life time that's all I've ever heard. Say a bunch but don't come thru. Also I feel that the President in all reality doesn't have a lot of power. It's our people we elect to "supposedly" represent "our" interest. Yet, I've never received a reply that said......"Hey that's a good idea, I'll mull it over." It's always been, "Thank you for contacting me, if I can be of any further assistance", blah, blah, blah. Makes me so dat blame angry. But, I don't quit, I keep writing, and I even received one back that said, to the effect, "we got the message." In other words, quit bothering me. Like hell I will. LOL I know many from both sides of the isle voted to go to war in Iraq. The premise was, WMD'S. Then when those "supposed" WMD'S, (I guess they were looking for NUKES) didn't come to be?, then on both sides, question's began to start as to blame, not taking into account that they voted to fight, yet WMD'S were found. Bunker's full of chemical warheads. (hence the Gulf War Syndrome) and to me?, this is a WMD. As Iraq, Sad-damn-Insane, used them before, and he had missles capable of reaching Isreal and other border countries, and if we didn't stop him, what would he do next? As far as other countries? Of course we know France didn't want any part of it because they have the largest Muslim Pop., in Europe. Other countrie's, cut their losses, if any, and have left. I have a couple feelings about Iraq and our involvement. Which I really haven't made up my mind yet, if we should continue or pull out. As great strides have been made. If we high tail it and get out? The terrorist's may once again kill off all the "good folks, each tribe" and it goes back to the status quo. If we stay? More of our fighting forces will lose their lives. Somehow there has to be a means to give Iraq, which they've wanted, freedom from a civil war. I don't know how we are going to do that. I'm not sure if it's the world won't work with us with the faces they are presented with or, they just plain don't want to take a chance, even though they talk tough against America, yet I've heard them to have purportedly have said away from the "to be's", America?, wish "I"/"We", could do that. Yes, I concur, with keeping in mind that we as American's have to try and make the right decision as to whom we want to lead us into the future. I always vote on whom I think will be able to do this. Even though I don't agree with some of their idea's, points of view. That's why I am not a registered repub/dem/ind...I'm a redneck. LOL. I haven't seen a possible canidate yet mentioned that I would have some confidence in, that would make me vote for them. I know Condi (as they call her) won't run. McCain? Unt uh. Hillary? I think it's time we had a woman President. I just don't trust her. Because of her and Willy, getting away with some scandal's I feel they used other's to take their fall. Of course Oliver North took the fall for Ronnie. True, China, Japan, are not unlike the Muslim world. It's ingrained in them their lives of how to live a certain way. But put the shoe on the other foot. They don't understand our values either. So, we clash. Lobbyist, special interest groups? In my book, they shouldn't even be allowed to contact one person in our Elected Masses. This is where the problem is. Us plain good ol' American people, we don't get a chance. Greed. When that almighty dollar is put in the face of a person in power?, they are going to snatch it, and forget about the "common people." I have seen like Fox news, who say they report you decide, which at first was good watching. Now they are giving more of their own independent replies, more analytical perspective while reporting. Rush Limbaugh? One thing I try to stay clear of. That's any too far one way, it's almost like these Islamic Hitler Facist's we're fighting, or will have to confront shortly. Limbaugh is in the "Ozone." I too like PBS/TV/Radio, they give both sides a chance. As well as NPR. (that reminds me, I got to renew my script of Leatherneck, thanks, it's a good magazine). I use to write for a newspaper and that was when I didn't know about, Right/Left, conservative/liberal, right/left. I use to write an op/ed about local things, and it was a large newspaper. Then I joined the Corps. I use to love from the Chicago Tribune, he was also a syndicated columnist, Royko. He could come up with some of the funniest stuff about all of this political stuff. As I said, I still haven't truly made up my mind about Hillary, or any other canidate. Tony Snow? Why sure, he's another pawn that will tell the American people what the President wants him to, just like all other press sec's from other admin's. Now the UN. Oh boy, after hearing the head, whats his face make the comments he made last eve? He's got some cahonie's believe me. To admonish the council for not taking action sooner? Who hasn't enforced the already resolutions, under his term? The UN sounds good, makes people want to trust, gives an out to those who say and has been proven, they don't hold water, to go do what need's to be done now, without waiting on what nobody pays any attention too. Good people do. This new world enemy, they don't care what anybody says, and that's because of that "totally, can't/won't change his thinkin' jerk from Iran." He feels the world is about to end anyway, so let's help it along? I thank you Dave, yes we must go forward as keeping well informed about so much in order to make intelligent decision's, and also to pass onto those who don't take any time to get their facts in order before they just spout off. It's been my pleasure Dave, in fact this has been the most/best dialouge I've ever had the pleasure of engaging in. I thank you so much. I hope that people who read this, will see...that it doesn't take insults, degrading comments, Marine bashing, just nicely put opinion's from each other, agree or disagree, and I've learned a good lesson here, thanks to you Dave. Maybe if we're attacked again by the likes of a couple that have been on this site, whom seem to be gone now, they too will see how we have interacted without trying to destroy, and both of us made good points/counterpoints. SF Dave, Proud to know ya. SF, SF.
Dear SSgt. Wind'nFace,

Thank you for taking pause. I've been doing a lot of that as I've grown older too.

Everyone makes mistakes, this administration, and all of the others. We just need to make certain we do all we can to not compound them, or prevent them from becoming collossal. Madeline Albright, our former Secretary of State, and whose Jewish family was killed by the German facists, recently stated that going into Iraq alone may have been the worst mistake in our country's history. What comes to mind for me is whacking at a hornet's nest, or the Sorcerer's Apprentice in the Disney movie where Mickey chops at the broom and creates lots and lots of other brooms, with nary an end in sight. The world simply won't work with us with the faces we currently present to them. We all need to weigh our decisions, and make the "best" one, or the "least worse" one we can, even if it means voting for someone with whom we disagree on points that are important to us.

Regarding the Chinese, I fully agree with you that the Communists have hed negative sway since Mao Tse Done (sic), and poison the minds of their youth with that wrong-headed philosophy. It is over the early 5,000 years of their history that ancestor worship has developed and been refined. Lots of "joss sticks" are lit in thousands of shrines throughout the Orient. There is something positive to be taken from that experience.

Regarding the Japanese, I recently read The Rise and Fall of the Japanese Empire, and although I've studied Bushido and oriental martial arts for over 20 years, after reading that I came to the conclusion that Americans can NEVER become "true Samurai." WWII showed how ingrained their way of life is, and only people who have been born to it can instinctively understand it. For us, it would be like us wanting to become fish. The fish who were born in the water have first, and the only claim.

Wind'nFace, fighting money is a tough row to hoe. I suppose we have to fight fire with fire, and pool our nickels and dimes (or 5s, 10s, 20s, and 100s) to combat the special interests whose only special interest is their own selfish selves. We need special interests who work for the 97% of the people in the country and the world, and not the 3% of the obscenely rich who dont' want to give it up. "The world is mine!" is their philosophy. T'ain't right.

The current special interests pulling the strings in Washington are also pulling the strings of the media. Rush Limbaugh (sic), FOX television (one of their reporters recently became the president's Press Secretary) lots of supposedly Christians acting unchristian (Who Would Jesus Bomb?), all combine to be a powerful influence on the population. As responsible citizens, we need to not buy it hook, line and sinker. We need to be thinkers instead, and when it comes time to vote, vote as educated people.

I get my news from Leatherneck Magazine, Christian Science Monitor, Boston.com, the Albany Times Union, AP news wire, and National Public Radio. Theirs is not the whole truth, but more of the truth resides there than in most other media. I also read a lot, and though it can sometimes be difficult, I balance my "hard reading" with plenty of fun reading, though at times it is hard to separate the two.

Let's talk about (lightning rod) Hillary. I do not know how she would be as president. Unfortunately we have not seen much of her in action since she and Bubba left the White House. I do have a tremendous amount of respect for her ability to roll with the punches life has thrown at her. I also applauded her attempt to make national health insurance a reality, and unfortunately, the special interests (pharmaceutical and insurance companies) had bought off the majority of both houses of congress, and our health care system is still great for the minority, and stinks for the people who cannot afford $12,000 per year for a decent health plan. She was vilified by the republican majority, and the health care system has only gotten worse since then. She was right. The special interests were wrong, and tens of millions of people were sold on the idea that she was wrong. Bad dog!

I will watch Hillary closely, and unless she really blows it, she's got my vote. If Hillary is nominated for president, and is put up against the likes of Condeleza (sic) Rice, who the world will never accept, as they do not accept her credibility as Secretary of State today)m the best choice for today and tomorrow is Hillary, as she will be the beginning of the beginning of solving the problems created by the monumental blunders of the current administration.

Wind'nFace. Thanks for engaging in dialog with me. Your thoughts have also given me pause to think, and it is appreciated. I'm glad you write your congressman.

Before I shut up, the topic of the UN is what started this exchange. For all its wrongs, it does not outweigh the good it does, or the promise of a better and safe life for us all. You may want to read the UN's Declaration of Human Rights, I believe originally proposed by Eleanor Roosevelt (sic). I'm not sure of where it stands today as a part of the UN charter, but it is also a good read.

Okay, we've talked enough, and as good citizens, now we need to commit to doing something, anything, even if it is only a little, but do it every day. Become informed, and act.

Take care.

Keep your powder dry.
*
Dave :=)

SF!

[WalkingMan]

Gentlemen,

If you are a USMC vet, you are no longer on active duty. When we were in, right or wrong, we followed orders right up the chain of command. Now that we are OUT, we have a sacred responsibility to elect good leaders, to have a healthy chain of command for those in uniform today, to minimize unnecessary risk of sons and daughters, fathers, cousins, brothers and sisters, and to protect their patriotism, the country and its ideals for which they volunteered. I've got skin in the game, lots of it, and I'm not going to let some remf like the current leaders in the White House waste them for no good reason, not without a fight.



Some members are no longer on active duty, some members are retired, some members are ex-mil, working in the military/government as civilians, some members are on active duty, some are poolees, waiting to enter boot camp, and some members are non-military... family members, friends, etc.

It would probably be a good idea for you to fill in your Profile page completely.

While I agree with you, that it is the duty of all citizens to elect good leaders, etc., I suspect that your assessment of what constitutes good leaders, etc., and my assessment of same... differ considerably.

I'm not sure what you mean by 'some remf'.

I respect the chain of command, independent of the individuals who populate it. Especially where elected civilians in the chain of command, like the Commander in Chief, are concerned, I feel that once the individual has been elected to the Office, they should be supported for the entire term of their office, unless they are sucessfully preosecuted under Articles of Impeachment. Anything less serious than that, is just one arsehole's opinion vs. another arsehole's opinion.

We all have a lot of 'skin in the game', because the enemy does not distinguish between hard and soft targets, except to the extent that it prefers to hit the softest targets possible, as opposed to, for example, going head to head with a Marine infantry company, and the field of battle completely devoid of human shields, for the enemy to hide behind.



We, as Marine Corps vets, need to stand four square behind our troops, all of them, every bloody one of the in uniform, or who will be in uniform. We need to stand up and shout that wrong is wrong. We have something special about us, and all the world knows it. We are strong physically, emotionally and mentally, and stronger than most because of what we have been through individually, and as an institution. It is our blessed heritage to have been our nations' spear-point, or knife's edge. When we are thrust into battle, or are following any order, we do not have our own hand on the shaft of he spear or the hilt of the sword. It is someone else's, basically the top-down command structure, which I support, but as a democracy, we, especially us former Marines, have the supreme responsibility to be the best citizens we can be to protect our troops, our environment, and this "Grand Experiment" called the United States. Hell, we need to be the best citizens in the country.


Yeah, Ok... you might want to consider filling in your Profile page completely, so we have a more complete picture of the specifics of your individual experience.



The monumental wrong-headed decisions by our current leaders have alienated and made enemies of the bulk of the world. What is that going to do for us? What are we/you/us going to do to make the world a better and safer place for the future?


I disagree. In fact, I think this is a nutty statement. I don't believe for a minute that 'the bulk of the world' are enemies of the USA.

About 25% of the people on the planet are Muslims, and sure, the Muslims hate us, because the Koran commands them to not only hate us, but to convert, enslave, or murder all human beings on the face of the planet, until dar al Islam remains, and dar al Harb ceases to exist.

Sure some other people don't like us too, but then, that is Ok... there are plenty of people who don't like us, but who, at the same time, hate Muslims immensely more than they dislike American citizens. After all... we are just trying to conquer the world with Coca-Cola, and blue jeans. If the Muslims hadn't 'Pearl Harbored' us on 9/11, the chances are zero that we would have started waging war against Muslims.

Of course, Muslims hate everyone else, who is not a 'proper Muslim' equally, because Islam commands them not to simply conquer the USA, but all of humanity, for the greater glory of their version of God.

The only way one can get the Muslims to stop hating and trying to kill them, is to convert to Islam.

I'd rather be dead, (or kill any number of Muslims in defence of myself, and my fellow Infidels) than to convert to Islam, so I'm up for war, until the last Muslim on the planet, either surrenders, or is killed.

More people were killed on 9/11 than in the Pearl Harbour attack. I hold Islam responsible for that act, and by extension, all Muslims, same way that all Japanese were held to account for Pearl Harbour.



We created "10,000 Osama Bin Ladens" by going into Iraq without global consensus, the WMD reason being proven FALSE.


No... 'we' didn't create any Osamas... Islam did that, and they began the creation process over 30 years ago, when they created the global network of Madrassa Schools, that are where all the Osamas actually come from, and which are the creation of the Muslim Brotherhood, in a plan that was first put into writing all the way back when the Ottoman Empire ended.



Who cares what the rest of the world thinks? I do, and those who ignore that do so at their peril, and their children's peril, and grandchildren's, and on and on. We live in a "global village," sharing one world, one atmosphere, one environment. The special interest groups pulling the strings, or sitting in seats of power, have thumbed their noses at the Kyoto Agreement, which most of the world signed on to in order to protect our environment. But the US, the "big dog" said "Up yours." It does not make me proud to be an American, not with what is being done in MY/YOUR/OUR name.


Hmmm... why are you bringing the Kyoto protocols up here? sort of changing the subject... no?

Last time I checked, the Muslims didn't give a rat's arse about the environment. In fact, they are, at the moment, perfectly willing to use nuclear, chemical and biological weapons against any and all Infidels, because we are just a filthy bunch of 'pigs and apes', and 'kuffirs', so we're really not even human, and anyway, it says right in the Koran that is pleases Allah, that we be exterminated.

Check out http://memri.org/ and see what Muslims themselves have to say about us Kuffirs, and what their Final Solution for humanity is.



As Americans, the choices you and I make today will have a ripple affect way beyond our own little lives, gently rocking the boat, or tossing it about with stormy waves of the future. We are all either part of the solution, or part of the problem.


I agree 100%.

If we do not totally defeat Islam, in their Global Jihad, to exterminate 100% of the Infidels, then your children will either become Muslims, or they will be slaves, for Muslims to do with, as they please (look up the word 'Dhimmitude'... or they will be murdered, for not getting with the Islamic Program (or should I say Pogrom).



I'm an old man now, with a son who was an Army combat medic, and now with three grandchildren. I do not want to buy into Armageddon or Rapture and leave the world blasted, scorched or poisoned for them. I do not think you want to do so either, and I know I'm not wrong.


Islam wants nuclear, chemical, and biological war, and has every intention of waging it against the Infidel. Islam hates life, and worships death, and suicide in Allah's name.

I am in favour of using whatever it takes, to utterly crush Islam, and it's dreams of Global Conquest, forever.

The only alternative, is that Islam will totally crush the rest of humanity, because that is their sworn goal, as stated in the Koran, Hadith, and Sharia Law.



Well, I've prattled on,


Yep.



Please, do not question my USMC veteranship.


I question everything.

The Profile page is there for a reason.

If you fill in the blanks, with ascertainable, verifiable information, then you will not have to ask anyone 'not to question' anything referred to in the Profile page.

-Wittig, Robert C., Cpl. E-4, USMC, service number 2439646

[redneck13]

:!: :thumbup: The Koran does not speak of Killing All other than Muslim's. It's a "for Peace" book. It only refer's to "infadel's" as one of their member's who falls from their faith, then they should take such action. Just some FYI for you. SF

[Gary Hall]

Walkingman: Thank you for your comments; I support and agree with you in your observations and further, believe that there is nothing more relevant in our national considerations. As the President has said " . . . you are either for us or against us . . . " in this glolbal War on Terorism. Gary Hall, Tyler, TX, PFC, 633178, W-3-1, 1st Mar Div 1950-1951.

[Gary Hall]

Walkingman: Thank you for your comments; I support and agree with you in your observations and further, believe that there is nothing more relevant in our national considerations. As the President has said " . . . you are either for us or against us . . . " in this global War on Terrorism. Gary Hall, Tyler, TX, PFC, 633178, W-3-1, 1st Mar Div 1950-1951.

[WalkingMan]

:!: :thumbup: The Koran does not speak of Killing All other than Muslim's. It's a "for Peace" book. It only refer's to "infadel's" as one of their member's who falls from their faith, then they should take such action. Just some FYI for you. SF

Check your facts... if you had actually read the Koran, and some of the interpretations that are guiding Islam today, you would not make such a statement.

I have been a serious student of the Koran since 9/12/2001, and I do mean serious.

If you read the book in chronological order, you will see that all the peaceful stuff is in the earlier part of the book, and all the really vicious crap is later, and therefore, according to the Koranic authorities, supercedes the earlier portions.

Don't take my word for it, just do some real homework. The site that I referenced, memri-org, is an excellent place to start, because it is nothing more than a translation site... they translate texts written in Arabic, Farsi, and other languages that are the mainstay of Islamic thought, into English.

This way, you see what Muslims... highly respected Muslim clerics... the accepted authorities of the faith, have to say about the faith.

Islam is, as Islam does.

The facts on the ground show no indication of a 'Religion of Peace'... at least not where non-Muslims are concerned.

I do not presume to know Islam better than the Muslim religious authorities... I am just repeating what any 'good Muslim' already knows.

[greensideout]

davidsteinbach, You tend to generalize with your view of "Christian Right" values as you see them from the outside. Please allow me to generalize as well.---Massachusetts, your location is well known for hating the right, hating unborn children, hating the current administration and hating just about anything else that might stand for good. How about hating the enemy that we are fighting and giving some praise to the troops that protect your freedom and way of life? Teach the kids that instead of the bull!

[Ladderwell]

It would probably be a good idea for you to fill in your Profile page completely.

Done

While I agree with you, that it is the duty of all citizens to elect good leaders, etc., I suspect that your assessment of what constitutes good leaders, etc., and my assessment of same... differ considerably.

WalkingMan. I consider good leaders as being those who stand between what rolls downhill and what hits the troops, and what gets by or through those leaders, is only what must impact the troops. Leaders who are smart and wise enough to separate the wheat from the chaff coming from their advisors, and then make an informed decision.

I'm not sure what you mean by 'some remf'.

REMF, in my opinion, is defined as "Rear Echelon M* F*s" I trust our definitions are the same.

I respect the chain of command, independent of the individuals who populate it. Especially where elected civilians in the chain of command, like the Commander in Chief, are concerned, I feel that once the individual has been elected to the Office, they should be supported for the entire term of their office, unless they are sucessfully preosecuted under Articles of Impeachment. Anything less serious than that, is just one arsehole's opinion vs. another arsehole's opinion.

There are too many instances in history where a popularly elected chain of command has resulted in atrocities and calamities of apocolyptical proportions. i.e. Nazi Germany, Fascist Italy, or Papa Doc in Haiti. There are also too many leaders and chains of command that have, hijacked the will of the people, be it in a corrupt election process (I grew up in a Democrat controlled city), or revolution, be it bloodless or not. Just because they proclaim legitimacy (sic) (Sadam Hussain was last elected by a 99% majority!), does not make it right. ALSO, and possibly a little more to the situation in hand, when a leader commits grievous errors (invading and removing a legitimate government (no matter how much we disliked it) in Iraq in the face of direct oppositon from the rest of the world,and under FALSE PRETENSES (the false claiim of WMDs), and who doesn't even apologize for it, and then heaps the bodies of our troops and treasure of the nation into the maw, and finally who failed to heed the advice of those who have been fighting Islam since the year 650 A.D., and who had that extra millennium-plus of experience to share with us, and which we brazenly ignored, at our peril, this is not good leadership. When leaders allow greedy or extreme special interests to dictate government policy, without a hint of being the last line of defense between those interests and the interests of our nation (i.e. DOING THEIR JOB!), that is poor leadership. When that same leader is an inconsequential speed-bump, that allows power-hungry madmen or Armageddon-ready religious extremists to manipulate and allow to be manipulated the majority of its citizens, and then compounds their errors that will have an expodential explosion of international war, causing unimaginable horror for our country and our world, that is something that no good citizen can take lying down, or accept without screaming "FIRE!" when the fire exists. My country, right or wrong, it's my country, but as a democracy we have the freedom and responsibilty to be part of the solution, not part of the problem.

If you were president of the U.S., and found out that the reason you took your country to war turned out to be false, what would you, or any right-headed, morally strong person done?

Myself, and my opinion as what I hope to be a good view, is that we must stay in Iraq to unscrew the horrific mess made by the current administration. While trying to stem the flow of blood, money and growth of the war throughtout the world, we need to bite the bullet, and fix the problem that caused it. We need a non-Republican administration to show the world in order to begin to stem the incoming tide of death, destruction, and misery.

We all have a lot of 'skin in the game', because the enemy does not distinguish between hard and soft targets, except to the extent that it prefers to hit the softest targets possible, as opposed to, for example, going head to head with a Marine infantry company, and the field of battle completely devoid of human shields, for the enemy to hide behind.

I agree. However, of children I have been blessed to influence to be good citizens over the past 20 years, many have become warriors and been in harm's way: Somalia, GWI, Afhanistan, GWII, Yugoslavia, Iraq and the Phillipines (Aby Syaff anyone?). Though anyone can be a target, my primary concern is with those in hazardous duty areas such as these. In standing up to protect them, and the soft targets around the world, we need to prevent our leaders from throwing gasoline on the fire. We send beligerants to the U.N., government representatives to dictate to other countries "how it's going to be," and that is a failed policy, putting ALL OF US in more and more people's crosshairs every day.



Yeah, Ok... you might want to consider filling in your Profile page completely, so we have a more complete picture of the specifics of your individual experience.
Okay. we're good.



I disagree. In fact, I think this is a nutty statement. I don't believe for a minute that 'the bulk of the world' are enemies of the USA.

I stand corrected, I meant the bulk of the civilized world, who don't so much as hate us, but tried to hold us back on the global scene to prevent us from doing something so PROFOUNDLY STUPID as invade Iraq. Their 1350 years of experience trumps the U.S.'s in spades.

About 25% of the people on the planet are Muslims, and sure, the Muslims hate us, because the Koran commands them to not only hate us, but to convert, enslave, or murder all human beings on the face of the planet, until dar al Islam remains, and dar al Harb ceases to exist.

Good, you've done some reasonable homework, studying the roots of Isalm. However, the history of Islam includes moderates taking power from the (ever present) fundamentalists. Off and on, the warlike, conquering Muslims took the back seat to the moderates. History showed that when cataclysms occured, such as an invading army, the radical Islam "genie" came out of the bottle, and it took a long time to get that genie back in the bottle, during which time the fundamentalist made great gains in war, lands, and the spread of radical Islam. Because this country a) invaded an Arab country on false pretences (sic) (i.e. the presence of WMDs),and b) did so like a Texan cowboy shootout taking the law into their own hands against the advice of those who had real, substantial experience to share with us, and c) continues to do so without apology or admitting wrong, we have dug a very very deep hole for ourselves and those who follow.

Sure some other people don't like us too, but then, that is Ok... there are plenty of people who don't like us, but who, at the same time, hate Muslims immensely more than they dislike American citizens. After all... we are just trying to conquer the world with Coca-Cola, and blue jeans. If the Muslims hadn't 'Pearl Harbored' us on 9/11, the chances are zero that we would have started waging war against Muslims.

Again, as part of my standing corrected:
1. When George Bush, Senior pushed Sadam out of Kuwait, we put people on Islam's "holy ground" in Saudi Arabia. That was the justification of the Wahabi Islamist's (i.e. Osama Bin Laden) 9/11 attack. The misnomer of us being "Pearl Harbored" creates a mistaken comparison of the two (2) events.
2. Globalization of the worldwide economy, althoughg good for many, does leave an amout of destruction in its wake. Change is hard.


Of course, Muslims hate everyone else, who is not a 'proper Muslim' equally, because Islam commands them not to simply conquer the USA, but all of humanity, for the greater glory of their version of God.

(Note the moderates reference above). Not all of the spread of Islam, as much as I would hae initially liked to have believed to the contrary), was spread by the sword. During the rise of moderate Islam, people were won over to Islam by non-violent, and non-threatening means. Moderates do exist in Islam.

The only way one can get the Muslims to stop hating and trying to kill them, is to convert to Islam.

I do not have all the solutions, and have given it some thought, but somehow we need to reach the hearts and minds of Muslims, especially the children, before their minds are not too twisted. This is why the damage caused by the Repbublican administration is going to have such a long-lasting affect on the world. It won't be a short turnaround time. It will take centuries. George Bush Senior realized this, which is why he advised his son (who for some ungodly reason ignored him) NOT to invade Iraq...No exit strategy. Now we are forced to live with it. Do we keep going in a straight line, or react to what is going on on the ground with a better plan?

I'd rather be dead, (or kill any number of Muslims in defence of myself, and my fellow Infidels) than to convert to Islam, so I'm up for war, until the last Muslim on the planet, either surrenders, or is killed.

After 9/11, the US had the world on its side, there was an opportunity to allow moderate Islam to squash or subdue the radicals {the ones with "convert or die" tattooed (figurativey) on their hearts.}. This administration squandered the global goodwill standing behind us by being cowboys, and striking a blow where it DID NOT NEED TO BE STRUCK! Sadam had ZERO to do with the 9/11 bombing. ZERO!

More people were killed on 9/11 than in the Pearl Harbour attack. I hold Islam responsible for that act, and by extension, all Muslims, same way that all Japanese were held to account for Pearl Harbour.

Hard decisions were made during WWII to manage the threat of Japan on our own shores. We did not kill all Japanese here. Just because we can kill people, it doesn't mean we can kill and idea. The Romans' persecution of early Christians is a good example of an idea thriving in adversity. We need to work with Islamists to get the genie we let out of the bottle, back into the bottle. The world can live with a moderate Islam. We need to be smart enough, and wise enough, to begin the healing of the wounds this administration has caused.



No... 'we' didn't create any Osamas... Islam did that, and they began the creation process over 30 years ago, when they created the global network of Madrassa Schools, that are where all the Osamas actually come from, and which are the creation of the Muslim Brotherhood, in a plan that was first put into writing all the way back when the Ottoman Empire ended.

The Republican administration's direct action was predicted to result in a new blossoming of radical Islam. We were warned against this. We did it anyway, and the Madrassa's are filled to the brim, and overflowing. We helped them grow 10,000 times, bursting the "containment field" held by moderates. They were minimizing the knuckleheads, while our actions maximized them. How can we even think of rewarding this administration with "four more years," or any degree of control over our "loose cannon" actions in the Mideast? Yet, we elected the administration a 2nd time!!!???!!!??? Common sense is obviously not common enough.


Hmmm... why are you bringing the Kyoto protocols up here? sort of changing the subject... no?

The Kyoto protocols are brought up here to point out the wholesale sellout of our country to the greedy special interests pulling the strings on our government's actions because we do not have a wise, informed, and intelligent president, strong enough and wise enought to understand the bigger picture. His inability to control the special interests is causing untold damage to the Environment in which we and our children, and children's children need to live. We're "peeing in our own pool," when a better leader would have seen that, and signed the protocol. It was brought up as an example of the quality of leadership this country elected.

Last time I checked, the Muslims didn't give a rat's arse about the environment. In fact, they are, at the moment, perfectly willing to use nuclear, chemical and biological weapons against any and all Infidels, because we are just a filthy bunch of 'pigs and apes', and 'kuffirs', so we're really not even human, and anyway, it says right in the Koran that is pleases Allah, that we be exterminated.

That opinion of the rest of the world has been around since 650, when Mohammed led his armies east and west. The moderates were eventually able to moderate Islam, but as noted above, when something of a calamitous nature occurs, they wax prolific. This government caused that to occur. Now what? Do we fan the flames with more knuckleheaded actions, or do we starve it of oxygen and try to fight the fire with finesse? Who will we elect next?

Check out http://memri.org/ and see what Muslims themselves have to say about us Kuffirs, and what their Final Solution for humanity is.

Note above. These threats have always been there. It is the size of the threat that is worrisome. Right now, with our actions post-9/11, it is growing out-of-control until we put a more intelligent and wise administration in power. What disturbs me the most is the squandering of the post-9/11 goodwill, by invading Iraq at the suggestion of George Senior's advisors (Cheney and Rumsfield) who wanted "to go all the way to Bagdad" in the first Gulf War. When George Senior SHUT THEM DOWN the first time, when they got into advisor positons under (I use "under" lightly) George Junior, all they did, regardless of the facts, was take their plans that they had on hold since GW1, got easily manipulated George Junior to take them off hold, and let 'er rip. Maybe this country deserves the kind of leadership we get. :=(



I agree 100%.

If we do not totally defeat Islam, in their Global Jihad, to exterminate 100% of the Infidels, then your children will either become Muslims, or they will be slaves, for Muslims to do with, as they please (look up the word 'Dhimmitude'... or they will be murdered, for not getting with the Islamic Program (or should I say Pogrom).

Dealt with earlier.



Islam wants nuclear, chemical, and biological war, and has every intention of waging it against the Infidel. Islam hates life, and worships death, and suicide in Allah's name.

The "genie" is the one to whom you refer. We need to support the moderates.

I am in favour of using whatever it takes, to utterly crush Islam, and it's dreams of Global Conquest, forever.

No can do. Been tried. Can't kill and idea. Better to learn how to control the fire. Controlling it is the only option.

The only alternative, is that Islam will totally crush the rest of humanity, because that is their sworn goal, as stated in the Koran, Hadith, and Sharia Law.

See above.


Summary: What can we do to combat the rise if radical Islam?

1. Elect a new government.
2. Ask those who have value-based voting motives to look at the bigger picture, not just the single cause or interest they support, and the ramafications of electing a leader who stands behind their cause, and although they "win," lose the whole world in the battle.

Keep the Faith.
*
SF
Ladderwell :=)



Yep.



I question everything.

The Profile page is there for a reason.

If you fill in the blanks, with ascertainable, verifiable information, then you will not have to ask anyone 'not to question' anything referred to in the Profile page.

-Wittig, Robert C., Cpl. E-4, USMC, service number 2439646[/QUOTE]

[Ladderwell]

davidsteinbach, You tend to generalize with your view of "Christian Right" values as you see them from the outside. Please allow me to generalize as well.---Massachusetts, your location is well known for hating the right, hating unborn children, hating the current administration and hating just about anything else that might stand for good. How about hating the enemy that we are fighting and giving some praise to the troops that protect your freedom and way of life? Teach the kids that instead of the bull!


I am a Christian. I'm on the inside, and a student of objective study of Christianity, it's history and place in the world. Did you know that there are currently 35,000 versions of Christianity in the world today? 35,000. The "Christian Right" in America is supporting the creation and sustaining of a Rightist/Fascist government. This is what occurred in Germany and Italy in the rise of those powers that caused WWII. Is that what you want? Do we trade off saving 1,000,000 unborn babies and lose the world, now at ~8,000,000,000,000 (it may be 6,000,000,000)? What gives you the Right? Political power? This is why our Founders divided Church and State. They understood the problems of organized religion dictating government policies, and wanted to keep them separate? Let's bow to their wisdom.

By the way, the first shots fired in our American Revolution were fired in Massachusetts at Haymarket Square, Lexington, and Concord. People from Massachusetts love this country, stand up for what is right, the poor, the weak, and yell bloody murder when governmental stupidity rears its head, here or elsewhere.
*
Ladderwell

[rktect3j]

I only have one problem. While "talking" to people on the internet I find that we all basically have an agenda. I mean we really do push our side without wanting to see the other. Some take it to extreme levels and I think it is these people who are the danger to America. We have these extremists on both the left and the right. So a litmus test I give to you.

Outside of the way President Bush handled 9/11 and going into Afganistan name me three positions/decisions/pieces of legislature that President Bush has lead our great country in a postive direction. Give credit where credit is due. I would have to believe that anybody who led a country for 6 years would have to stumble into a good choice every once in a while. I only ask this because so far I have not seen one attempt to place Bush in anything other then a negative light.

Pass the litmus test and at the very least I will not believe that you are just a Bush bashing republican hater whose sole agenda is to defeat the other side at any cost. Then we can have some sort of honest dialogue.

[Ladderwell]

From my perspective, good things George Bush Junior had done:

1. Reached out to the general Muslim community, treating them with respect, and identifying the terrorists as those who would hijack at religion of peace.
2. Attempted a "No Child Left Behind" education philosophy.
3. Not changed the support philosophy behind Taiwan.

What do you think are his three best accomplishment.

[greensideout]

I am a Christian. I'm on the inside, and a student of objective study of Christianity, it's history and place in the world. Did you know that there are currently 35,000 versions of Christianity in the world today? 35,000. The "Christian Right" in America is supporting the creation and sustaining of a Rightist/Fascist government. This is what occurred in Germany and Italy in the rise of those powers that caused WWII. Is that what you want? Do we trade off saving 1,000,000 unborn babies and lose the world, now at ~8,000,000,000,000 (it may be 6,000,000,000)? What gives you the Right? Political power? This is why our Founders divided Church and State. They understood the problems of organized religion dictating government policies, and wanted to keep them separate? Let's bow to their wisdom.

By the way, the first shots fired in our American Revolution were fired in Massachusetts at Haymarket Square, Lexington, and Concord. People from Massachusetts love this country, stand up for what is right, the poor, the weak, and yell bloody murder when governmental stupidity rears its head, here or elsewhere.
*
Ladderwell


You have a great education, yes one that I could not stand against in a trade of words. I think that we agree on more then we disagree but the solutions that you offer such as, "a change of goverment", little reguard for the helpless unborn and what we must do to stop terror in America are the things that we differ on. Do I think that we should have started with Iraq? No, but I do not pretend to know the reason why we did. We must have some sort of faith that our government has made choices to invade Iraq based upon information that we do not know. I would only guess that it was the most liberal part of Arabia and we spectulated that we would be received better then we have been.

[rktect3j]

1. His ability to take us out of a recession bugun by or started during the previous administration and further helped out by the 9/11 attacks.
2. His ability to stand by his positions, viewed either right or wrong by Americans. Such as his stance on fighting terror. We can all disagree on the right or wrong way in which he did it but he has stood his ground never once asking to see what the polls told him to do.
3. Agree with you on the "no child left behind" policy.

[marinegreen]

From my perspective, good things George Bush Junior had done:

1. Reached out to the general Muslim community, treating them with respect, and identifying the terrorists as those who would hijack at religion of peace.
2. Attempted a "No Child Left Behind" education philosophy.
3. Not changed the support philosophy behind Taiwan.

What do you think are his three best accomplishment.




Are you serious ? why is it every admin. talks about education and nothing truely gets done,matter of fact, chit gets cut.When you say his philosophy of No child left behind,you mean the ones who have 6th,7th,8th,9th grade educations but get full ride scholarships to major universites when my daughter who carries a 4.0 gpa could'nt get jack diddley chit, one who went to get a student loan by her lonesome but was denied because mom and pops made to much $$(Dont worry I'm paying for it) and as far as supporting someother country,hell that a smoke screen.Supporting could mean several different ways, verbally,militarly,fianacially,blah,blah.How many admins have said the same crap over the yrs. ?? (ALL OF EM)SF MG

[Ladderwell]

You have a great education, yes one that I could not stand against in a trade of words. I think that we agree on more then we disagree but the solutions that you offer such as, "a change of goverment", little reguard for the helpless unborn and what we must do to stop terror in America are the things that we differ on. Do I think that we should have started with Iraq? No, but I do not pretend to know the reason why we did. We must have some sort of faith that our government has made choices to invade Iraq based upon information that we do not know. I would only guess that it was the most liberal part of Arabia and we spectulated that we would be received better then we have been.

Hi Greensideout,

Thanks for getting back to me.

Yes, there are some tough decisions. We are privliged (sic) to live in a part of the world where life is precious. It shapes our perspective, but in many areas of the world, "life is cheap," and they do not feel the same way as we do. They cannot. Overpopulation has caused civilizations to disappear, as resources were used to support them.

Nevertheless, I feel just the opposite. I am anti-abortion in all but extrememe circumstances (rape, incest, danger to the life of the mother), but regardless of my personal opinion, if electing a president or any candidate strictly because he is pro-life or anti-gay marriage, and in doing so will add to the problem of global mismanagement and millions of deaths, or the destuction of the environment in which we live, I have a choice, do I save the one today or the millions tomorrow? Tough choice, but we need someone with the wisdom of Solomon in power. We simply do not have that, and his "ministers" are leading him and us down a path of destruction.

Iraq had nothing to do with terror in the world, especially in America. What are we doing there, and are we to reward those who put us there by electing them AGAIN? Do me wrong once, shame on you, do me wrong twice, shame on me. Do me wrong a third time....not on my watch..not if I can help it.

Peace.
*
:=)

[greensideout]

davidmsteinbach----your profile pic----Mauser 98?

[Ladderwell]

1. His ability to take us out of a recession bugun by or started during the previous administration and further helped out by the 9/11 attacks.
2. His ability to stand by his positions, viewed either right or wrong by Americans. Such as his stance on fighting terror. We can all disagree on the right or wrong way in which he did it but he has stood his ground never once asking to see what the polls told him to do.
3. Agree with you on the "no child left behind" policy.

Interesting:

1. The country has been experiencing a standard business cycle. This country has had a recession every 10 years since 1890. No surprises there. However, the current uptick in economic numbers has not been reflected in real earnings by the average Joe. People have lost ground since this administration has come in. More unemployed, or rendered unemployable, millions more without healthcare benefits.

2. His ability to stand by his positions is what frightens me the most. Plenty of new information has come up that directly impact the foundation of his position, and yet he has not changed a bit. He's more of a person who is incapable of taking in new information that affects the foundation of his positions but has been unable to process it and react accordingly. Winston Churchill stated that "a man who receives new fundamental information and does not change, is of no use to me."

3. The No Child Left Behind policy does not have the financial support behind the mandate. Nice idea, far from a success, and far from saying that it will be a success. My degree is in education, and I've been a teacher for 17 years.

Keep the Faith.
SF
*
Ladderwell

[rktect3j]

Interesting:

1. The country has been experiencing a standard business cycle. This country has had a recession every 10 years since 1890. No surprises there. However, the current uptick in economic numbers has not been reflected in real earnings by the average Joe. People have lost ground since this administration has come in. More unemployed, or rendered unemployable, millions more without healthcare benefits.

2. His ability to stand by his positions is what frightens me the most. Plenty of new information has come up that directly impact the foundation of his position, and yet he has not changed a bit. He's more of a person who is incapable of taking in new information that affects the foundation of his positions but has been unable to process it and react accordingly. Winston Churchill stated that "a man who receives new fundamental information and does not change, is of no use to me."

3. The No Child Left Behind policy does not have the financial support behind the mandate. Nice idea, far from a success, and far from saying that it will be a success. My degree is in education, and I've been a teacher for 17 years.

Keep the Faith.
SF
*
Ladderwell
1. I'll diagree with you on that. Maybe it is cyclicale but we were heading down when he was elected and 9/11 could have sent us into a depression. That is a could have. I believe we were spared that. My opinion. As to the average Joe. My name is Joe and I can tell you that I am way ahead as are all my friends. The unemployement rate hasn't changed all that much to be of much concearn. When it gets to double digits then we can talk about that point. Until then. Pfft. Also, homeownership is at all time highs. We all have more today.
2. I can agree that there are times when Bush stands his position too long. Won't go into details but you need to know when to pull back and rethink things. There is point though of rethinking things that gets rediculous. A presidetn needs to lead and you can't do that by watching polls as to what your opinion today is going to be.
3. My agreement is with the attempt of it. The followthru?? I don't really know what went wrong. Something I should look into.

[jennifer]

World's coming to an end... : /

[Ladderwell]

Are you serious ? why is it every admin. talks about education and nothing truely gets done,matter of fact, chit gets cut.When you say his philosophy of No child left behind,you mean the ones who have 6th,7th,8th,9th grade educations but get full ride scholarships to major universites when my daughter who carries a 4.0 gpa could'nt get jack diddley chit, one who went to get a student loan by her lonesome but was denied because mom and pops made to much $$(Dont worry I'm paying for it) and as far as supporting someother country,hell that a smoke screen.Supporting could mean several different ways, verbally,militarly,fianacially,blah,blah.How many admins have said the same crap over the yrs. ?? (ALL OF EM)SF MG


Howdy,

Tough ride, but with a 4.0, she will be fine in the long run, a strong investment has already been made in terms of your blood, sweat and tears, not to mention your good example.

I did my college on the GI Bill, as did my son.

I know that some people have received husses because of race, color and/or creed. There was a lot of flak given to Affirmative Action Programs because they favored "people of color," and who got breaks ahead of some others who were academically more gifted. My only take on that is that black people were enslaved in this country for 300 years, dividing families, debasing them as people, and making it illegal for them to read and write. We, as a nation, benefitted from this, but it was on their enslaved backs. The Affirmative Action programs in this country were begun to right the wrongs. In my opinion, because we kept the down for 300 years, we have to sacrafice and give them an "edge" for an equal number of years, 300. Our Affirmative Action programs came under attack from the beginning, and they have suffered very serious defeats since the Republicans came into power. As a People, the black population needs to be given back their 300 years in order to rebuild their family structure, sense of responsibility, cohesion, and place in society. Many non-Blacks have to suffer to give back that which was taken from their race for so many centuries. It may be my children or yours, your brother who wants to be a fireman or policeman, etc. It's only fair.

Regardless, good luck to your daughter in school. She'll do fine.

Keep the Faith.
*
Ladderwell

[Ladderwell]

1. I'll diagree with you on that. Maybe it is cyclicale but we were heading down when he was elected and 9/11 could have sent us into a depression. That is a could have. I believe we were spared that. My opinion. As to the average Joe. My name is Joe and I can tell you that I am way ahead as are all my friends. The unemployement rate hasn't changed all that much to be of much concearn. When it gets to double digits then we can talk about that point. Until then. Pfft. Also, homeownership is at all time highs. We all have more today.
2. I can agree that there are times when Bush stands his position too long. Won't go into details but you need to know when to pull back and rethink things. There is point though of rethinking things that gets rediculous. A presidetn needs to lead and you can't do that by watching polls as to what your opinion today is going to be.
3. My agreement is with the attempt of it. The followthru?? I don't really know what went wrong. Something I should look into.

Howdy,

Lots of people have left the unemployment rolls because their benefits ran out, and they have just given up on finding work. The double digits are probably in all reality "there." Many other good people willing to work hard are under-employed, and find it extremely tough to make it on 2 paychecks, especially when trying to raise a couple of kids. The bucks just aren't there...yet.

That being said, the defense companies are doing a booming business. Do we need another war to pull us out of an economic slump? WWII worked pretty well, though it cost over 26,000,000 lives worldwide. Maybe that was worth the tradeoff.

I agree with you on politicians moving their positions with the polls. They have to ***** themselves out in order to get elected. Bush and his machine did a darn good job of manipulating the voting public to form a winning coalition. Though the coalition has possbily caused the greatest mistake in the history of the United States, I do acknowledge the and tip my hat to their effectiveness.

Gotta git.

G'night.

Semper Fi
*
Peace
*
Ladderwell

[Ladderwell]

Howdy,

Lots of people have left the unemployment rolls because their benefits ran out, and they have just given up on finding work. The double digits are probably in all reality "there." Many other good people willing to work hard are under-employed, and find it extremely tough to make it on 2 paychecks, especially when trying to raise a couple of kids. The bucks just aren't there...yet.

That being said, the defense companies are doing a booming business. Do we need another war to pull us out of an economic slump? WWII worked pretty well, though it cost over 26,000,000 lives worldwide. Maybe that was worth the tradeoff.

I agree with you on politicians moving their positions with the polls. They have to ***** themselves out in order to get elected. Bush and his machine did a darn good job of manipulating the voting public to form a winning coalition. Though the coalition has possbily caused the greatest mistake in the history of the United States, I do acknowledge the and tip my hat to their effectiveness.

Gotta git.

G'night.

Semper Fi
*
Peace
*
Ladderwell

I apologize for my deleted expletive. I should have said "sell themselves"

[greensideout]

davidmsteinbach----your profile pic----Mauser 98?


Ok, one last time. Your profile picture looks to be a German Mauser 98 action. Is there a message that you are sending with that or was it just some random pull off of the net? Do you enjoy the study of firearms prehaps? Maybe you are a gunsmith as well as a teacher. If so, I would like to swap stories.

Back to the subject. The UN is such a joke that the world community most likely laughs at the crooks. They are powerless in any and every conflict that they have tried to suck money from. It is time for the US to step forward and get something done---just exactly what President Bush and Israel are doing now!
The Brits are in the fight and I give those troops my support as well!

[marinegreen]

Howdy,

Tough ride, but with a 4.0, she will be fine in the long run, a strong investment has already been made in terms of your blood, sweat and tears, not to mention your good example.

I did my college on the GI Bill, as did my son.

I know that some people have received husses because of race, color and/or creed. There was a lot of flak given to Affirmative Action Programs because they favored "people of color," and who got breaks ahead of some others who were academically more gifted. My only take on that is that black people were enslaved in this country for 300 years, dividing families, debasing them as people, and making it illegal for them to read and write. We, as a nation, benefitted from this, but it was on their enslaved backs. The Affirmative Action programs in this country were begun to right the wrongs. In my opinion, because we kept the down for 300 years, we have to sacrafice and give them an "edge" for an equal number of years, 300. Our Affirmative Action programs came under attack from the beginning, and they have suffered very serious defeats since the Republicans came into power. As a People, the black population needs to be given back their 300 years in order to rebuild their family structure, sense of responsibility, cohesion, and place in society. Many non-Blacks have to suffer to give back that which was taken from their race for so many centuries. It may be my children or yours, your brother who wants to be a fireman or policeman, etc. It's only fair.

Regardless, good luck to your daughter in school. She'll do fine.

Keep the Faith.
*
Ladderwell



Ooooo brother pleeezzzz, surely you jest ??? Lets cut the crap how we owe some race for something that happened 141 yrs ago, they have as all kids have the same chance at good grades as joechit the ragman does. What your all for arbritration tooo ?? where are we to get all this $$ for this ????. You know how many kids get free scholarships and only have 9th grade mentality, and after there college days are back on the streets. Why should my kid who busted her lil azz studing because I told her,honey if you study hard and get good grades you can get a scholship to some of the finer colleges only to see her hopes dashed and watch as nothing but sports scholships were handed out, GIMME A FUQING BREAK !!! I guess thats why other countries are kicking our kids azz'es academically cuz edumication comes 1st. DONT GET ME WRONG..........I love my sports and yes I like to see athletic scholships handed out,but give it to those who have decent grades though and quit using that whoaaaaa is me attitude, I r not smart enough to study and apply myself so things should just be handed to me.

[marinegreen]

or my forefathers were slaves and therefore you owe us for the next 159 yrs,thats right 159,its been 141 and some say we should be owed for 300 yrs. I guess from here on out,our govt should just say,if you are a decendant of slaves you dont bother appling yourselfs for the next 159 yrs,wait until after that time frame. Then our govt can say to the Indians,OK yer next,heres all your land back that we took from you,then it'll be the Mexicans,then we'll be paying back the Japs for kicking there azz'es in a war that they started,then we'll have to payback the germans for kicking there azz'es, I mean lets get real, yer almost making me feel like a minority,hey wait a min. I like that, guess my govt owes me too then huh ??? MG, SF

[rktect3j]

Ooooo brother pleeezzzz, surely you jest ??? Lets cut the crap how we owe some race for something that happened 141 yrs ago, they have as all kids have the same chance at good grades as joechit the ragman does. What your all for arbritration tooo ?? where are we to get all this $$ for this ????. You know how many kids get free scholarships and only have 9th grade mentality, and after there college days are back on the streets. Why should my kid who busted her lil azz studing because I told her,honey if you study hard and get good grades you can get a scholship to some of the finer colleges only to see her hopes dashed and watch as nothing but sports scholships were handed out, GIMME A FUQING BREAK !!! I guess thats why other countries are kicking our kids azz'es academically cuz edumication comes 1st. DONT GET ME WRONG..........I love my sports and yes I like to see athletic scholships handed out,but give it to those who have decent grades though and quit using that whoaaaaa is me attitude, I r not smart enough to study and apply myself so things should just be handed to me.
I can not apologize for 300 years for actions my countries forefathers made. You will not find any ancestor of mine enslaving anybody. In 300 years time will my ancestors then be able to get back from the blacks and the whites for this new atrocity of forcing me and my offspring to pay the way. Forget it. It is in the past. It was unfortunate but you can not right the wrong to those who are not around anymore.

[Ladderwell]

Ok, one last time. Your profile picture looks to be a German Mauser 98 action. Is there a message that you are sending with that or was it just some random pull off of the net? Do you enjoy the study of firearms prehaps? Maybe you are a gunsmith as well as a teacher. If so, I would like to swap stories.

Back to the subject. The UN is such a joke that the world community most likely laughs at the crooks. They are powerless in any and every conflict that they have tried to suck money from. It is time for the US to step forward and get something done---just exactly what President Bush and Israel are doing now!
The Brits are in the fight and I give those troops my support as well!

Howdy,

Good get on the Mauser action. Being a red-blooded American male, I like armaments. We can swap stories in that realm if you like. I'd be happy to.

Bush and Blair stood up on their high horses and said "We have to go into Iraq because of the WMDs." Iraq did not have WMDs, and it diverted a river of resources, wealth, allies, and the blood of our soldiers, that would have been better spent, and probably less lethal, fighting terrorism (Iraq didn't have a darn thing to do with terrorism). Despite the heinous crime of wasting these resources, and losing the goodwill of all of moderate and civilized people that went into our "bank account" after 9/11, we can get on the road to repair the needless damage, but only if we elect better leaders.

Israel's invasion of South Lebanon has its roots in the establishment of the State of Israel. Since their founding, they have periodically had to fight to preserve their existence. It is only right. Supporting them is only right. Please do not put Bush in the same league as the leaders in Israel. He doesn't deserve it.

The UN is the only global body representing the majority (if not all) of the nations of the world under one roof, who are tasked with a Mission Statement that, in my opinion, deserves full support, and dogged determination, faith and support to keep the world on a sane track, and never giving up on it. Never. Here is the Preamble to the UN Charter:

"WE THE PEOPLES OF THE UNITED NATIONS DETERMINED
to save succeeding generations from the scourge of war, which twice in our lifetime has brought untold sorrow to mankind, and
to reaffirm faith in fundamental human rights, in the dignity and worth of the human person, in the equal rights of men and women and of nations large and small, and

to establish conditions under which justice and respect for the obligations arising from treaties and other sources of international law can be maintained, and

to promote social progress and better standards of life in larger freedom,



AND FOR THESE ENDS
to practice tolerance and live together in peace with one another as good neighbours, and

to unite our strength to maintain international peace and security, and

to ensure, by the acceptance of principles and the institution of methods, that armed force shall not be used, save in the common interest, and

to employ international machinery for the promotion of the economic and social advancement of all peoples,..."


--------
This works for me. It's like the Catholic Church. There are morons there who screw it up for many, but the core is still a solid one. It's like a drunk staggering from one side of the road to the other on his way home. It is okay to condem the drunk, but not okay to condem the way home. The UN is the way to a truly civilized world. I'm for it, even if it takes a thousand years to get it right.

Respectfully,
Ladderwell :=)

[Ladderwell]

Ooooo brother pleeezzzz, surely you jest ??? Lets cut the crap how we owe some race for something that happened 141 yrs ago, they have as all kids have the same chance at good grades as joechit the ragman does. What your all for arbritration tooo ?? where are we to get all this $$ for this ????. You know how many kids get free scholarships and only have 9th grade mentality, and after there college days are back on the streets. Why should my kid who busted her lil azz studing because I told her,honey if you study hard and get good grades you can get a scholship to some of the finer colleges only to see her hopes dashed and watch as nothing but sports scholships were handed out, GIMME A FUQING BREAK !!! I guess thats why other countries are kicking our kids azz'es academically cuz edumication comes 1st. DONT GET ME WRONG..........I love my sports and yes I like to see athletic scholships handed out,but give it to those who have decent grades though and quit using that whoaaaaa is me attitude, I r not smart enough to study and apply myself so things should just be handed to me.

There is balance in the universe. Proverbs are loaded with examples. Willingly or unwillingly, this country, needs to come back in balance by "paying for its past sins. Affirmative Action was an attempt to correct three hundred years of living off the blood and backs of enslaved people. Gutting it in the few decades it was in effect was another sin. We cannot be selfish, and shouldn't cry "foul" when the shoe is on the other foot. To the 20,000,000 Black people in this country, it must seem odd to hear us complain as we do, especially when the same kind of "good folks" permitted lynchings by the thousand, rape of slave-women, breaking up families by selling off parents, spouses, and children, and thinking "it's okay." Doing the math, thinking "it's okay," just doesn't add up on my calculator.

Anyway, that's what I've learned growing up, being taught by a man who witnessed enough of man's inhumanity to man in WWII, and who taught me to stand up for what is right, and to do so as best I can, and also to think, study, and learn as much as I can about racial and bigotry-issues to understand where we have been, and my responsibility for where we are going.

Respectfully,
*
Ladderwell :=)

[Ladderwell]

Ooooo brother pleeezzzz, surely you jest ??? Lets cut the crap how we owe some race for something that happened 141 yrs ago, they have as all kids have the same chance at good grades as joechit the ragman does. What your all for arbritration tooo ?? where are we to get all this $$ for this ????. You know how many kids get free scholarships and only have 9th grade mentality, and after there college days are back on the streets. Why should my kid who busted her lil azz studing because I told her,honey if you study hard and get good grades you can get a scholship to some of the finer colleges only to see her hopes dashed and watch as nothing but sports scholships were handed out, GIMME A FUQING BREAK !!! I guess thats why other countries are kicking our kids azz'es academically cuz edumication comes 1st. DONT GET ME WRONG..........I love my sports and yes I like to see athletic scholships handed out,but give it to those who have decent grades though and quit using that whoaaaaa is me attitude, I r not smart enough to study and apply myself so things should just be handed to me.

There is balance in the universe. Proverbs are loaded with examples. Willingly or unwillingly, this country, needs to come back in balance by "paying for its past sins. Affirmative Action was an attempt to correct three hundred years of living off the blood and backs of enslaved people. Gutting it in the few decades it was in effect was another sin. We cannot be selfish, and shouldn't cry "foul" when the shoe is on the other foot. To the 20,000,000 Black people in this country, it must seem odd to hear us complain as we do, especially when the same kind of "good folks" permitted lynchings by the thousand, rape of slave-women, breaking up families by selling off parents, spouses, and children, and thinking "it's okay." Doing the math, thinking "it's okay," just doesn't add up on my calculator.

Anyway, that's what I've learned growing up, being taught by a man who witnessed enough of man's inhumanity to man in WWII, and who taught me to stand up for what is right, and to do so as best I can, and also to think, study, and learn as much as I can about racial and bigotry-issues to understand where we have been, and my responsibility for where we are going.

Respectfully,
*
Ladderwell :=)

[Ladderwell]

Ooooo brother pleeezzzz, surely you jest ??? Lets cut the crap how we owe some race for something that happened 141 yrs ago, they have as all kids have the same chance at good grades as joechit the ragman does. What your all for arbritration tooo ?? where are we to get all this $$ for this ????. You know how many kids get free scholarships and only have 9th grade mentality, and after there college days are back on the streets. Why should my kid who busted her lil azz studing because I told her,honey if you study hard and get good grades you can get a scholship to some of the finer colleges only to see her hopes dashed and watch as nothing but sports scholships were handed out, GIMME A FUQING BREAK !!! I guess thats why other countries are kicking our kids azz'es academically cuz edumication comes 1st. DONT GET ME WRONG..........I love my sports and yes I like to see athletic scholships handed out,but give it to those who have decent grades though and quit using that whoaaaaa is me attitude, I r not smart enough to study and apply myself so things should just be handed to me.

There is balance in the universe. Proverbs are loaded with examples. Willingly or unwillingly, this country, needs to come back in balance by "paying for its past sins. Affirmative Action was an attempt to correct three hundred years of living off the blood and backs of enslaved people. Gutting it in the few decades it was in effect was another sin. We cannot be selfish, and shouldn't cry "foul" when the shoe is on the other foot. To the 20,000,000 Black people in this country, it must seem odd to hear us complain as we do, especially when the same kind of "good folks" permitted lynchings by the thousand, rape of slave-women, breaking up families by selling off parents, spouses, and children, and thinking "it's okay." Doing the math, thinking "it's okay," just doesn't add up on my calculator.

Anyway, that's what I've learned growing up, being taught by a man who witnessed enough of man's inhumanity to man in WWII, and who taught me to stand up for what is right, and to do so as best I can, and also to think, study, and learn as much as I can about racial and bigotry-issues to understand where we have been, and my responsibility for where we are going.

Respectfully,
*
Ladderwell :=)

[Ladderwell]

or my forefathers were slaves and therefore you owe us for the next 159 yrs,thats right 159,its been 141 and some say we should be owed for 300 yrs. I guess from here on out,our govt should just say,if you are a decendant of slaves you dont bother appling yourselfs for the next 159 yrs,wait until after that time frame. Then our govt can say to the Indians,OK yer next,heres all your land back that we took from you,then it'll be the Mexicans,then we'll be paying back the Japs for kicking there azz'es in a war that they started,then we'll have to payback the germans for kicking there azz'es, I mean lets get real, yer almost making me feel like a minority,hey wait a min. I like that, guess my govt owes me too then huh ??? MG, SF
.

The best analogy for Affirmative Action is to finally let people get into the game, or get into the batter's box, or get onto the playing field. Affirmative Action was and is needed because without it, racism and bigotry would keep the decendants (sic) of slaves out of the game. They were able to get a chance that would not otherwise been provided or permitted. What's right is right. The Christianity I was taught ingrained "love thy neighbor as thyself." it also required me to settle up my debts to others before showing up at the communion rail.
*
Respectfully,
*
Dave

[Ladderwell]

or my forefathers were slaves and therefore you owe us for the next 159 yrs,thats right 159,its been 141 and some say we should be owed for 300 yrs. I guess from here on out,our govt should just say,if you are a decendant of slaves you dont bother appling yourselfs for the next 159 yrs,wait until after that time frame. Then our govt can say to the Indians,OK yer next,heres all your land back that we took from you,then it'll be the Mexicans,then we'll be paying back the Japs for kicking there azz'es in a war that they started,then we'll have to payback the germans for kicking there azz'es, I mean lets get real, yer almost making me feel like a minority,hey wait a min. I like that, guess my govt owes me too then huh ??? MG, SF
.

The best analogy for Affirmative Action is to finally let people get into the game, or get into the batter's box, or get onto the playing field. Affirmative Action was and is needed because without it, racism and bigotry would keep the decendants (sic) of slaves out of the game. They were able to get a chance that would not otherwise been provided or permitted. What's right is right. The Christianity I was taught ingrained "love thy neighbor as thyself." it also required me to settle up my debts to others before showing up at the communion rail.
*
Respectfully,
*
Dave

[Ladderwell]

I can not apologize for 300 years for actions my countries forefathers made. You will not find any ancestor of mine enslaving anybody. In 300 years time will my ancestors then be able to get back from the blacks and the whites for this new atrocity of forcing me and my offspring to pay the way. Forget it. It is in the past. It was unfortunate but you can not right the wrong to those who are not around anymore.


That's like saying. This country is living on the ill-gotten goods produced by slaves. We weakend the race and its decendants (sic), to the point that without help, they will forever remain weak. We've got to pay it back. Affirmative Action was a way of doing so which spread the pain and sacrafice (sic) that needs to be made to make things right again.
*
Respectfully,
*
Ladderwell :=)
Semper Fi

[marinegreen]

That's like saying. This country is living on the ill-gotten goods produced by slaves. We weakend the race and its decendants (sic), to the point that without help, they will forever remain weak. We've got to pay it back. Affirmative Action was a way of doing so which spread the pain and sacrafice (sic) that needs to be made to make things right again.
*
Respectfully,
*
Ladderwell :=)
Semper Fi



So what your telling us is,that you deprived your children any of lifes pleasures cuz you feel you owe someone for something that is as old as dirt as far as history goes. Dont get me wrong, I have friends from alot of different cultures but I dont owe anybody chit, not a friggen thing was handed to me,my parents came up eating beans and maccoroni morning noon and nite during the depression so nothing was given to us and when me or 1 of my brothers fuqed up we all got it.If'en yer thinking people need to be owed,then our govt owes our parents parents for making them loose everything they worked for.Lets cut with the bleeding heart crap and move forward and make A new,better history.As long as peeps keep crying about slavery it'll never move forward and there will always be hate so dont start thump';en the bible stuff about christianity. I give my fair share in donations to different organizations and do it with great pride but,I 'll be damned if I give a dime to somebody who thinks I owe them cuz our forefathers inslaved there ancestors,I would think in some small way they would be happy things turned out for the better for them,they could be living in a 3rd world who's daily exsistance is a struggle,aids,disease,No water, poor medical,No schools,teachers, blah,blah,blah, and to really sound like a jerk,If they think its so rough for them here, head back across the pond and rebuild. MG >>SF

[Ladderwell]

So what your telling us is,that you deprived your children any of lifes pleasures cuz you feel you owe someone for something that is as old as dirt as far as history goes. Dont get me wrong, I have friends from alot of different cultures but I dont owe anybody chit, not a friggen thing was handed to me,my parents came up eating beans and maccoroni morning noon and nite during the depression so nothing was given to us and when me or 1 of my brothers fuqed up we all got it.If'en yer thinking people need to be owed,then our govt owes our parents parents for making them loose everything they worked for.Lets cut with the bleeding heart crap and move forward and make A new,better history.As long as peeps keep crying about slavery it'll never move forward and there will always be hate so dont start thump';en the bible stuff about christianity. I give my fair share in donations to different organizations and do it with great pride but,I 'll be damned if I give a dime to somebody who thinks I owe them cuz our forefathers inslaved there ancestors,I would think in some small way they would be happy things turned out for the better for them,they could be living in a 3rd world who's daily exsistance is a struggle,aids,disease,No water, poor medical,No schools,teachers, blah,blah,blah, and to really sound like a jerk,If they think its so rough for them here, head back across the pond and rebuild. MG >>SF

Even when our parents and grandparents were suffering at the bottom of a business cycle, they were still standing on the fertile soil tilled by slaves, whose contributions in the centuries before gave was a major factor in the development and success of the US.

I agree with you in having a negative opinion about those who feel they are owed something. However, whether they feel that way or not, it is not relevant to the fact that they are owed. We broke their culture. We need to help put it back together again, at great cost if need be. Otherwise, they will always be slaves, though not in visible chains, but plenty of other ones (bigotry, racism, illiteracy, unhealthy cycles of poverty, crime, drug use). A maltreated culture produces malformed citizens. It is better for us all in the long run if we fix it.

Respectfully,
*
Ladderwell :=)
SF

[marinegreen]

lol, just caught my mistake,didnt mean to say arbritration, meant to say retribution....................

[OLE SARG]

Why can't people leave the past where in belongs, in the past. This subject ALWAYS brings out what I call the "Opportunistic Racists" like fatboy al sharpton and rev (I USE THAT WORD LOOSELY) jesse jackoff, oopps jackson.
This thread just makes me want to seek out a towelhead and give him a big hug, BECAUSE these *******s will be the next ones on the "feel sorry" for list.
Shouldn't that read, "A maltreated culture produces a malformed World (what the towelheads are doing today)"?

SEMPER FI,

[FistFu68]

:evilgrin: DAM,NOW I FEEL SORRY!I CANNOT AFFORD TO PUT THE $ 6500.OO,SPINER'S ON MY PIMP MOBILE. I GUESS THE BENTLY I BOUGHT WITH MY CRACK PROCEED'S,WILL HAVE TO DO! HO,DE,DOE, DOG!:evilgrin:

[Ladderwell]

Why can't people leave the past where in belongs, in the past. This subject ALWAYS brings out what I call the "Opportunistic Racists" like fatboy al sharpton and rev (I USE THAT WORD LOOSELY) jesse jackoff, oopps jackson.
This thread just makes me want to seek out a towelhead and give him a big hug, BECAUSE these *******s will be the next ones on the "feel sorry" for list.
Shouldn't that read, "A maltreated culture produces a malformed World (what the towelheads are doing today)"?

SEMPER FI,

Asking people to forget the past is like asking a man walking with a wooden leg to forget that it is lost, and how he lost it.

No one is listening to radical "opportunistic racists," but what should be rightfully done need to be done, because it is wrong not to do what is right. In the meanwhile, who are our good-ole', regular, non-opportunistic racists teaching their children?
*
Respectfully,
Ladderwell
SF

[Ladderwell]

:evilgrin: DAM,NOW I FEEL SORRY!I CANNOT AFFORD TO PUT THE $ 6500.OO,SPINER'S ON MY PIMP MOBILE. I GUESS THE BENTLY I BOUGHT WITH MY CRACK PROCEED'S,WILL HAVE TO DO! HO,DE,DOE, DOG!:evilgrin:

Stereotyping will not solve the problem. It is unfair to do so, and more complex than that.
*
Respectfully,
Ladderwell
SF