Repentant Vietnam War architect McNamara breaks his silence on Iraq

[10thzodiac]

The United States, is making the same mistakes all over again.

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines04/0125-01.htm


Errors, myths and miscalculations that led to the Vietnam War, which McNamara now believes was a serious mistake


We misjudged then -- and we have since -- the geopolitical intentions of our adversaries . . . and we exaggerated the dangers to the United States of their actions.
We viewed the people and leaders of South Vietnam in terms of our own experience. . . . We totally misjudged the political forces within the country.
We underestimated the power of nationalism to motivate a people to fight and die for their beliefs and values.
Our judgments of friend and foe alike reflected our profound ignorance of the history, culture, and politics of the people in the area, and the personalities and habits of their leaders.
We failed then -- and have since -- to recognize the limitations of modern, high-technology military equipment, forces and doctrine. . . . We failed as well to adapt our military tactics to the task of winning the hearts and minds of people from a totally different culture.
We failed to draw Congress and the American people into a full and frank discussion and debate of the pros and cons of a large-scale military involvement . . . before we initiated the action.
After the action got under way and unanticipated events forced us off our planned course . . . we did not fully explain what was happening and why we were doing what we did.
We did not recognize that neither our people nor our leaders are omniscient. Our judgment of what is in another people's or country's best interest should be put to the test of open discussion in international forums. We do not have the God-given right to shape every nation in our image or as we choose.
We did not hold to the principle that U.S. military action . . . should be carried out only in conjunction with multinational forces supported fully (and not merely cosmetically) by the international community.
We failed to recognize that in international affairs, as in other aspects of life, there may be problems for which there are no immediate solutions. . . . At times, we may have to live with an imperfect, untidy world.
Underlying many of these errors lay our failure to organize the top echelons of the executive branch to deal effectively with the extraordinarily complex range of political and military issues.

[Osotogary]

McNamara- Every time I see his name I think of "McNamara's Fence" and what a fiasco that was. Although he does bring up some interesting thoughts it's all in retrospect, after the fact as it were, especially in regards to the Vietnam War. He's starting to sound a little too Kofi (let's form a committee) Annan to me. It seems to me that some folks still try to intellectualize warfare while others have broken it down to a me versus you and what are you going to do about it mode.
Right now, as I see it, we are fighting against the me versus you and what are you going to do about it folks who frankly couldn't give a rats fanny if we abide by the Geneva Convention or if we spend all our time intellectualized this war or not. The more we spend intellectualizing the better for them.
Theory is only good when it becomes successfully applicable to real time, real world practice. The practice of fighting to win must be paramount in real time not in retrospect or theory.
10th- Sorry about the rant. I saw McNamara's name and I had all kinds of bad flashbacks. I know that there things that I could learn from him but, honestly, right now....I'd rather not.

[10thzodiac]

McNamara- Every time I see his name I think of "McNamara's Fence" and what a fiasco that was. Although he does bring up some interesting thoughts it's all in retrospect, after the fact as it were, especially in regards to the Vietnam War. He's starting to sound a little too Kofi (let's form a committee) Annan to me. It seems to me that some folks still try to intellectualize warfare while others have broken it down to a me versus you and what are you going to do about it mode.
Right now, as I see it, we are fighting against the me versus you and what are you going to do about it folks who frankly couldn't give a rats fanny if we abide by the Geneva Convention or if we spend all our time intellectualized this war or not. The more we spend intellectualizing the better for them.
Theory is only good when it becomes successfully applicable to real time, real world practice. The practice of fighting to win must be paramount in real time not in retrospect or theory.
10th- Sorry about the rant. I saw McNamara's name and I had all kinds of bad flashbacks. I know that there things that I could learn from him but, honestly, right now....I'd rather not.

I'm not crazy about McNamara or his twin Rumsfeld, but as you say, "he (McNamara) brings up some interesting thoughts it's all in retrospect."

Osotogary, with your permission that's how one learns by looking back at our mistakes, are we really learning anything?

In regards to:"The practice of fighting to win must be paramount in real time not in retrospect or theory." In my humble opinion, without winning their hearts and minds that would be futile.

Hmmm? Hearts and minds, I wonder, if we dropped consumer goods on them instead of bombs, you know like TV's, washing machines, air conditioners etc. You can buy allot of consumer goods for 9 Billion a month, that's what the Iraq war cost! Awww, that would be to simplistic and anyway the American public wouldn't stand for it, there would be a shoot out on every American front lawn, you can take my boy or girl and send them over there but not my TV, washing machine, air conditioner, etc....

Everybody makes their own hard bed I guess, it's a crazy world we live in.

SF

[Mike McIntyre]

In regards to:"The practice of fighting to win must be paramount in real time not in retrospect or theory." In my humble opinion, without winning their hearts and minds that would be futile.”
<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>
How do you win the hearts and minds of people who vow they will never stop until Israel is destroyed and all the infidels (You & Me) are either converted (to Islam) or eliminated? <o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
It did not work in Nam and I doubt it will work here!

[Osotogary]

10th-
I'd be a fool if I said that I didn't have the same thoughts as you crossing my mind in regards to "winning hearts and minds" and learning from the past.
I guess it all depends on timing as in when to learn and apply from the past and when to win hearts and minds. Would I be seriously mistaken to think that "winning the hearts and minds" would be the primary mindset of one that is being fired on? I don't know because I have never been in that situation. Would I send my troops into a sacred cemetery knowing full well that in the past there was mention that sacred monuments and cemetaries were used for guerilla hide outs and ambush sites? I don't know.
10th-Thanks for your feedback. Oh, by the way, I could use a new television, a projection one ...if you please. That way I can watch tv the rest of my life and not be concerned with one frikkken thing. LOL
Gary

[10thzodiac]

In regards to:"The practice of fighting to win must be paramount in real time not in retrospect or theory." In my humble opinion, without winning their hearts and minds that would be futile.”

How do you win the hearts and minds *of people who vow they will never stop until Israel is destroyed and all the infidels (You & Me) are either converted (to Islam) or eliminated?<O:p</O:p
It did not work in Nam and I doubt it will work here!

My dear friend, not all *Islamics, Jews and Americans are of the extremist pervasion, there are still rational people in this world. If you have the time and inclination read some of the "talkback" bottom of URL http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/743764.html that surprised me what the average Israeli is thinking currently in real time about the Mid-East situation, please note the author of this article in this Israeli publication talks in the past tense that America has lost the war in Iraq. Quote, "Apparently, we did not learn a thing from the first Lebanon War or from the American defeat in Iraq." That is a real time quote in an Israeli news publication!

SF

[10thzodiac]

10th-
I'd be a fool if I said that I didn't have the same thoughts as you crossing my mind in regards to "winning hearts and minds" and learning from the past.
I guess it all depends on timing as in when to learn and apply from the past and when to win hearts and minds. Would I be seriously mistaken to think that "winning the hearts and minds" would be the primary mindset of one that is being fired on? I don't know because I have never been in that situation. Would I send my troops into a sacred cemetery knowing full well that in the past there was mention that sacred monuments and cemetaries were used for guerilla hide outs and ambush sites? I don't know.
10th-Thanks for your feedback. Oh, by the way, I could use a new television, a projection one ...if you please. That way I can watch tv the rest of my life and not be concerned with one frikkken thing. LOL
Gary

Gary, if I parachuted one into your back yard, could I win your heart & mind, I'm sure a bomb wouldn't work, would it?:D

SF

[Osotogary]

10th-
Sure you can parachute it and I promise that I will think of you as I watch Lawrence Welk reruns on the big screen while eating a big bowl of chocolate chip ice cream. Now, if the parachuted item just happened to land on my head and kill me then, heck, I'd say that that was just as bad as a bomb.
PS- Please parachute a television that works.

[Mike McIntyre]

Zodiac:<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
I know that you lean toward the anti-Semitic and you love to stir the pot to the point of getting down right nasty with your fellow “Devil Dawgs” but could you enlighten me? I must not have your intellectual prowess, because I don’t get it?<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
Apparently, we did not learn a thing from the first Lebanon War or from the American defeat in Iraq. <o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
This was in your suggested reading. When were we defeated in Iraq?<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
If you want goodwill, check out Static sky 25, “Why our media Sucks!”<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
So tell me again why Iraqi dissidents have not come over to our (excluding you and the media) side? New schools, free elections, rebuilt hospitals, and new freedoms are all humanitarian gestures.<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
Now if you mean to bash Israel, AGAIN, Remember:<o:p></o:p>
Ø Isreal has never attacked an Arabic country without first being provoked.<o:p></o:p>
Ø They were willing to compromise up to 90% but Arafat declined<o:p></o:p>
Ø This war is about Hezbola and Iran<o:p></o:p>
Ø Ask why does Iran want a war?<o:p></o:p>
Ø Who has more to gain Iran or Israel? <o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
Can you not think for yourself? Why do you ALWAYS refer to some LEFT WING publication?<o:p></o:p>

[10thzodiac]

Only a fool thinks he knows it all. When I find that I'm wrong I'll change my thinking.

This forum is like my references I refer too, a learning experience. Am I left wing, maybe, but I always thought of myself as an American, not left, centrist or right. I have not to my knowledge labeled any other American here personally by any of those political catch alls. I feel I have enough intellectual prowess not to reply to conflicting ideas in that way. Although I might from time to time call someone a word that dose not apply "legally to humans" who are acting like asses.

Allot of those "talkback" replies http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/743764.html
(if you read any of them) as you implied in the Israeli "left wing" publication are what some would say including you, "so far to the right they fell off." Granted there are the left and centrist ones too.

Like I said before, there is nothing wrong with Christians, Jews, Islamics and etc., it is just the people in them. If that makes me the anti-Christ, anti-Semitic or Crusader in your opinion, well that's you opinion. My conscious is my soft pillow.

Gees! you know what? Nobody has called me a Crusader yet! Hmmm, I'll have to work on that one. McIntyre, do I have to be a right winger to get called that, enlighten me please? My name is Richard IV, is that's a good start, or how about Sir McRichard IV? That has a good ring to it?;)

SF

P.S. The Israelis are saying in the past tense at Harretz the Americans lost the war in Iraq ~ you go figure, I was taken back by it too, especially from a Isreal publication, WTF?

[ggyoung]

Vietnam----The three stouges Johnson, McNamare and Westmarlin. Now who are the 3 Bush,--------and--------

[MillRatUSMC]

I hate to throw a some doubt on all this, but on reading the first message.
A switch came on...I feel this is an urban legend...I don't believe that McNamara would make those statements...its not in the character of the man...they will go to their graves believing that they did the right thing...
The only thing, they knew not the enemy they faced or the extent of life that enemy was willing to sacrifice...Ho Chi Minh had stated that he was willing to sacrifice 10 to our 1 and in the end we would grow tired of our losses.
History has proven him right.
Vietnam, was my war...
So, from that point of view...I can't for the life of me...
See him making those statement...

[redneck13]

Saddam Hussein was a threat to the world, one, he harbored "terrorist" (his party) they had training camps in Iraq, and he slaughtered thousands of innocent people, with "NERVE" Gas, the same kind that he could unleash across the area. He had to be taken out. As far as gaining the people's trust? You should hear some of the Veteran's coming back from Iraq, how greatful they are for all we do, done. Second....The UN, the world knew that Saddam had something up his sleeve. The President of the United States made a decision, to take out this madman, and I've not heard from hundred's upon hundred's of people who e-mail me, that he's wrong, was wrong. It was in the best "interest" of the US to destroy him. Three....We as a nation are not imposing "our type" of democracy upon anyone. The "free people" of Iraq, voted, they have their own way of establishing a democracy. It doesn't reflect "our's" to the fullest extent, because of so many different faction's of people that align Iraq, and are they glad Hussein is gone?, you better believe it. It's "MONDAY" night "arm chair" quarterbacking. It's people saying things, re-acting to things, from the past. The hell with the past. TODAY IS TODAY, AND EACH DAY OUR PRESIDENT WAKES UP WITH ONE THING ON HIS MIND...."TO PROTECT AMERICA." Sure, intelligence failed, from the lack of communication. Criminal or other intent/actions on behalf of the President is the dumbest statement I've heard. McNamara? He maybe looking back as we all do...and saying, "dat burn, if I had only done this, that!!" It takes "time" to get people talking, people to quit killing each other, and realizing that, they too can be a big part of their country's inner actions, it's these "nutsoid" people whom are the one's that have to be taken out, if it means, 3yrs-5-yrs, they stand no chance. Hitler thought he could take over the world. Did he succeed? These radical's, and "monday night quarterbacking", will forever go on.....as.....there are too many who have too many opinion's and won't let the Military do it's damn job. Too many people whom are so called "expert's" giving their opinion's on how this or that....could've should've would've.