Israel vs. Neighbors (Terrorists)

[JWG]

Hey all,

I don't know how many of you have also been keeping up on the current situation with Israel and the war their waging on the terrorists of Palestine (Gaza Strip), Lebanon, Syria, and even now their pointing at Iran.

What's everyones thoughts on this? This has done nothing but grow in seriousness since it started, and doesn't show signs of getting any better. As America, we've been known to support countries, but what are we going to do since we're in Iraq currently getting that in order?

This is all just a mess, just looking for some views and debate on this situation. I hope I'm not the only one keeping up with all this?

[Brooklyn]

First war between two democracies as far as I know ( first thing that comes to mind ).

I think Israel is going about this all wrong. Okay, we all know they have the power, and the Arab nations fear them, but this is just bullying on a national scale.

Syria just pulled out of Lebanon last year, so the Lebanese gvt. isn't exactly strong enough to stop Hezbollah from doing anything. If the Lebanese gvt. were refusing to combat terrorism I could understand this.

Blaming the Lebanese gvt. for this and then invading them is completely out of proportion. Israel going in and destroying roads, bridges, civilian runways, as well as bombing homes in heavily populated civilian neighborhoods is an over reaction to say the least. On the other hand, though I don't agree with Israel attacking Lebanese military bases, I can alteast accept it since it's a military target.

Israeli diplomacy ( Olmert ) has failed. Since he's backed into a corner and has failed as a statesman, the only action he can take is the one we're seeing on FOX and CNN right now.

/.02 cents

[yellowwing]

Gaza Hamas kidnaps one Israeli, force and posturing ensue. Then the Hezbollah goons respond by kidnapping TWO Israelis. Not very smart.

The common denominator is Syria and Iran.

[JWG]

I have to say I back Israel on this one.

Let's look at it this way. Israel is acting in self-defense. They are the black sheep of the neighborhood, so to speak. Judaism in the middle of Arab nation.. doesn't mix well, plain and simple.

Like YellowWing said, Gaza Hamas kidnapped one of their own, then Hezobollah in Lebanon kidnapped another two of their own. Now, notice I said Hezobollah. That is what Israel is trying to target, not Lebanon as a nation, sorry for my bad choice of words in my first post.

If Israel didn't act so aggresively, they wouldn't last too long. If they took this kind of 'bullying' from everyone without acting on it as they are now, they'd be continuously bullied, and probably, eventually be overtaken by the surrounding Arab nations.

They can't afford to let things happen like these, without taking appropriate as they are now.

The same groups kidnapping Israeli's are the same we're fighting in Iraq. They're trying to brew up something nasty right now..

Just my two cents.

[kovanfleet]

wow thing are getting worse every minute there. the news jus said that the UN will be sending troop to aid Isreal.

[Brooklyn]

Like YellowWing said, Gaza Hamas kidnapped one of their own, then Hezobollah in Lebanon kidnapped another two of their own. Now, notice I said Hezobollah. That is what Israel is trying to target, not Lebanon as a nation, sorry for my bad choice of words in my first post.



Actually, Israeli politicians have said that the Hezbollah attack is an act of war by Lebanon, because the militia is based in the country.

I for one don't see an attack on two Israeli Hummers and a tank as a terrorist action. I also don't see "kidnapping" bka taking a prisoner of war as terrorism. I do see these rocket attacks by Hezbollah as terrorism, as well as Israel's attacks on civilian structures in Lebanon.


If Israel didn't act so aggresively, they wouldn't last too long. If they took this kind of 'bullying' from everyone without acting on it as they are now, they'd be continuously bullied, and probably, eventually be overtaken by the surrounding Arab nations.

Hmm, one might argue that it is these actions by Israel that continues to breed more terrorists in the region. Israel thinks they can beat terrorism by attrition--they are wrong.



They can't afford to let things happen like these, without taking appropriate as they are now.



It's funny you put "appropriate" in italics because this is anything but. Lebanon had nothing to do with these attacks. They didn't hide Hezbollah. They didn't fund them or order the soldiers to be killed/taken prisoner. All Lebanon did is existed. Their one year old government is too weak to expell Hezbollah, and because of that, they have been invaded by another nation. And now Israel is saying that if Hezbollah launches more rockets they will bomb Beirut? Israel's actions make no sense. Go after Syria, fine. Iran, fine. Lebanon...what the hell? Lebanon has actually called for a cease-fire between Hezbollah and Israel.


The same groups kidnapping Israeli's are the same we're fighting in Iraq



I'm not so sure about that, so I won't disagree. However, I don't see what that has to do with Israel, unless they are now our allies against Iraqi insurgency.








wow thing are getting worse every minute there. the news jus said that the UN will be sending troop to aid Isreal.



Actually, I believe the U.N. wanted to send peace keepers to act as a buffer between Israel and everyone else. I believe it was vetoed by the U.S., though.

[Brooklyn]

Correction to my above post ( I can't edit it ). The U.N. resolution was to condemn Israel for it's Gaza incursion and the U.S. vetoed it. Nothing to do with anytroops to help Israel.

[JWG]

Actually, Israeli politicians have said that the Hezbollah attack is an act of war by Lebanon, because the militia is based in the country.

I for one don't see an attack on two Israeli Hummers and a tank as a terrorist action. I also don't see "kidnapping" bka taking a prisoner of war as terrorism. I do see these rocket attacks by Hezbollah as terrorism, as well as Israel's attacks on civilian structures in Lebanon.


If the Israeli politicans did in fact say that is was an act of war by Lebanon because of the attacks by Hezobollah, I don't know what to say there other than they should've singled out Hezobollah in their wording more. Bad choice of words, in my opinion.

You said you didn't see the attack on two Israeli Hummers and a tank a act of terrorism? Or kidnapping a Israeli? You pointed out out, from reading your wording, that you considered the kidnap as them taking a POW? They were not at war at the time of the kidnapping.. so it was no POW incident.

Now it is war, as Israel waged war on them AFTER the kidnappings and attacks. Israel bombing a civilian structure in Lebanon sounds harsh, but have we forgotten that it is a war? War is never right or just. Men and women from both sides always die. It's the cold, hard truth about it. Do you think Hezobollah is going to hide in military structures? No. They are hiding in 'civilian' structures because they are terrorists.



Hmm, one might argue that it is these actions by Israel that continues to breed more terrorists in the region. Israel thinks they can beat terrorism by attrition--they are wrong.


I call it defending ones self. It may very well keep provoking it, but I don't expect Israel to let it happen regardless.

Terrorism was rooted and breeded from the same source, from the Islamic extremeists. They're nothing but dirtbags and they're evil to the bone.

Tell me, who would you rather be captive by? Israel or one of the terrorist-rooted Arab countries that neighbors them?

Have we forgotten the busses full of women and children being blown up by suicide bombers, who if we've forgotten, are the same enemy they are combating? Point is, Israel has had enough, and have PLENTY of cause to put the stomping on these dirtbags. I'm glad for them, more power to Israel for stepping up to DEFEND themselves.

I'm not mad or trying to be harsh.. as I want nothing but to be able to have a good discussion without resulting to mud slinging (which I'm not trying to work toward).. but how can you say or even consider that Israel is responsible for the terrorism that is effecting their country, and harming their country, when all Israel is doing is defending themselves..?


It's funny you put "appropriate" in italics because this is anything but. Lebanon had nothing to do with these attacks. They didn't hide Hezbollah. They didn't fund them or order the soldiers to be killed/taken prisoner. All Lebanon did is existed. Their one year old government is too weak to expell Hezbollah, and because of that, they have been invaded by another nation. And now Israel is saying that if Hezbollah launches more rockets they will bomb Beirut? Israel's actions make no sense. Go after Syria, fine. Iran, fine. Lebanon...what the hell? Lebanon has actually called for a cease-fire between Hezbollah and Israel.


I'm not sure on the status of Lebanon and how capable they are to expell Hezobollah from their country, but the fact of the matter is, once of the sources of terrorism attacking Israel is based out of Lebanon, and that is where they need to go to take out Hezobollah.

I don't think we should expect Israel to ask Hezobollah to leave Lebanon so they can eliminate them so poor Lebanon doesn't get affected.

I hate to keep repeating myself.. but this is the cruelty of war. Good people and innocent people DO die. It is something that comes with war.


I'm not so sure about that, so I won't disagree. However, I don't see what that has to do with Israel, unless they are now our allies against Iraqi insurgency.


Sure they are, they may not be the exact Terrorist group, but they're the same, at the roots. They're all dirtbag, useless, brainwashed radicalists who are killing innocent people for their 'cause.'

Yes, America is fighting Terrorism because WE were attacked by them, not only on 9/11 but on many other occasions, not all on our homeground. Do we really need 1,000's of casualites to consider it means to attack? Is that what makes it good grounds to attack and eliminate the threat? I hope not.

Yes, we are fighting the same dirtbags who attacked Israel. We're all in it to defend ourselves.. and our country.

--

Again, no means here to start mudslinging. Opinions are like buttholes.. everyone has one, and they all stink. :beer:

[Mama]

First war between two democracies as far as I know ( first thing that comes to mind ).

I think Israel is going about this all wrong. Okay, we all know they have the power, and the Arab nations fear them, but this is just bullying on a national scale.

Syria just pulled out of Lebanon last year, so the Lebanese gvt. isn't exactly strong enough to stop Hezbollah from doing anything. If the Lebanese gvt. were refusing to combat terrorism I could understand this.

Blaming the Lebanese gvt. for this and then invading them is completely out of proportion. Israel going in and destroying roads, bridges, civilian runways, as well as bombing homes in heavily populated civilian neighborhoods is an over reaction to say the least. On the other hand, though I don't agree with Israel attacking Lebanese military bases, I can alteast accept it since it's a military target.

Israeli diplomacy ( Olmert ) has failed. Since he's backed into a corner and has failed as a statesman, the only action he can take is the one we're seeing on FOX and CNN right now.

/.02 cents

How many lebonese have crosseed INTO Israel and accomplished suicide bombings? How many lebonese have kidnapped and tortured and killed not just IDF members but aged citizens and children as well?
How many jewish women have been kidnapped and raped and tortured to death by the lebonese...

Get the facts before you start saying "out of proportion"

If it were Mexico or Canada pulling these stunts in America...wouldn't you want your Marines/Military to "take care of business" and protect your arse?

No different for the Israeli's....they've taken enough crap...time to end it

[Brooklyn]

Holy crap!!! I had a post drawn up to reply to your points and when I hit reply it deleted!!!

LMAO...give me a minute.

[Brooklyn]

If the Israeli politicans did in fact say that is was an act of war by Lebanon because of the attacks by Hezobollah, I don't know what to say there other than they should've singled out Hezobollah in their wording more. Bad choice of words, in my opinion.





You can say it was a bad choice of words. But Israel meant those words. Hence they've invaded and bombed Lebanon.




They were not at war at the time of the kidnapping.. so it was no POW incident.



To my knowledge ( and I'm no expert ) Hezbollah and Israel have been at war for many years.



Do you think Hezobollah is going to hide in military structures? No. They are hiding in 'civilian' structures because they are terrorists.



I should have made myself more clear. They are bombing infrastructure, not just structures. They are also bombing Lebanese military bases, which, as I said, has nothing to do with this conflict. Side note; Lebanon is actually trying to mediate a cease-fire between Hezbollah and Israel.


I don't think we should expect Israel to ask Hezobollah to leave Lebanon so they can eliminate them so poor Lebanon doesn't get affected.


The thing is, they aren't just attacking Hezbollah. They are also attacking Lebanon. And have threatened to bomb the Lebanese capital if Hezbollah doesn't stop fighting.


Tell me, who would you rather be captive by? Israel or one of the terrorist-rooted Arab countries that neighbors them?

I don't consider all Arab countries to be terrorist nations, first. Second, where's the option for "fighting to the death"? Neither Israel or the terrorists will spare me from torture. I'd rather be killed fighting.


how can you say or even consider that Israel is responsible for the terrorism that is effecting their country, and harming their country, when all Israel is doing is defending themselves..?

Note, I never said Israel is responsible for terrorism. I said something like "one might say". In other words, think of it from a different perspective. Put yourself in the shoes of the 10 year old kid who's home was bulldozed and entire family crushed by the IDF because his 20 year old brother killed some Israeli citizens. His perspective = Israel is responsible for the death of his entire family, therefore it's their fault that in 10 years he will follow in his brother's footsteps. See, it's a big, dumb circle. Side A hits side B. Side B retaliates. Side A retaliates, etc, etc, so on.


They're all dirtbag, useless, brainwashed radicalists who are killing innocent people for their 'cause.'


I can agree with this. But I'd like to point out that Israel is also killing innocent people for their cause. Like I said, it's a vicious cycle.

Remember, terrorism is the war of the poor, war is the terrorism of the rich.



You're lucky my post got lost. It was much longer and surely would have given you a migraine. :p

[Brooklyn]

How many lebonese have crosseed INTO Israel and accomplished suicide bombings? How many lebonese have kidnapped and tortured and killed not just IDF members but aged citizens and children as well?
How many jewish women have been kidnapped and raped and tortured to death by the lebonese...



I hate to say it, but that's irrelevant. Attacking a country because of something they did in the past is very Hitlerish. Lebanon has a brand new gvt., only a year old. By your argument, the U.S. can nuke Hiroshima again because the Japanese attacked us in the past.



Get the facts before you start saying "out of proportion"



Believe me, I have the facts straight. Fact is, no country is given free reign to attack it's neighbors simply because it's neighbors had once attacked them, otherwise, ceasefires, armistices, peace treaties, etc. would be just as irrelevant as your excuses for Israel invading Lebanon.


If it were Mexico or Canada pulling these stunts in America...wouldn't you want your Marines/Military to "take care of business" and protect your arse?


Okay, so before WWI, General John Pershing was sent into Mexico to capture/kill Pancho Villa ( sp? ) because he killed 19 ( I think it was 19 ) Americans. The difference between the U.S. gvt.'s approach and the Israeli's approach? Simple...Gen. Pershing didn't go after Mexico, he went after Pancho Villa.


they've taken enough crap...time to end it



Sadly, it's not that simple. As I've said, attrition isn't an effective method in combating terrorism. Because of these events there will be more idiots lining up to blow themselves up tomorrow then there were yesterday.

[JWG]

I was never good with politics.. so I'm going to let someone else continue to rant with you for a while.

All I'm going to say now is.. I just hope you'd step up and fight for America if we were attacked by someone, without weighing on whether or not you will want to bomb or invade a country, knowing innocent people who shouldn't die will die, and you may be the one ordered to do it.

Just trying to express what I'm feeling right now.. WAR IS NEVER JUST OR RIGHT. That goes for this.

Look at the scheme of all this.. replace America with Israel right now.. and by God, if you're not madder than he**, I'm scared for ya.

[Brooklyn]

All I'm going to say now is.. I just hope you'd step up and fight for America if we were attacked by someone, without weighing on whether or not you will want to bomb or invade a country, knowing innocent people who shouldn't die will die, and you may be the one ordered to do it.



Look at my Pancho Villa response above.

I have plenty confidence in the American Gvt. I don't think the U.S. would ever attack an innocent nation to get to a terrorist group. Someone will use Afghanistan as an example later, I'm sure, so I'll say now; Afghanistan wasn't innocent because they were being ran by the Taliban who refused to stop harboring the terrorists. This isn't the case with Lebanon. Anyway, my point is, I have that confidence in the American Gvt. ( else I wouldn't want to be a Marine ) to not do things as the Israelis do.

[Mama]

I agree...the last few days is the "past"

What you fail to realize is there's not a day that goes by that a civilian isn't killed by some bombing perpetuated by Jihadists... including TODAY!!!! So, nice strawman...

It's the arab nations that refuse to keep the peace treaties and cease fires etc...so yet another strawman...

Fine...go after one man...difference between Pancho Villa and jihadists??? Think about that one pup...

Any more than stopping the insurgency is to quell in Iraq eh???

well pot calling kettle black there

[Brooklyn]

I agree...the last few days is the "past"


The Lebanese gvt. has not attacked Israel in the last few days.

*edit* Actually, this Lebanese gvt. has NEVER attacked Israel.



What you fail to realize is there's not a day that goes by that a civilian isn't killed by some bombinb perpetuated by Jihadists... including TODAY


Actually, I do realize that. But that's not what started this. This was started by Hezbollah ambushing Israeli soldiers.



It's the arab nations that refuse to keep the peace treaties and cease fires etc


Again, it was Israel, not Lebanon that said "this is an act of war".



Fine...go after one man...difference between Pancho Villa and jihadists??? Think about that one pup...


What is the difference? Pancho Villa invaded the U.S. with his personal army and killed Americans to try to make the U.S. gvt. invade Mexico and remove his rival that had just been voted president. He and his army were just as much terrorists as the Jihadists are. They are pretty much the same.



Any more than stopping the insurgency is to quell in Iraq eh???


I'm not sure I understand what you're responding to here.

[yellowwing]

That's the thing, if Ole Pancho was funded and politically supported by Mexico, it might have been a different story.

Hezbollah crossed into Israel and conducted the raid. Lebanon's policy is basically let Hezbollah do what it wants in southern Lebanon. Probably out of political stability to their year old government. Their official line is that, "We are not responsible to safeguard Israel's border."

So Hezbollah goes unchecked and is funded and supported by Syria and Iran.

Now the US is in a tricky situation. We politically supported the new Lebanese government for giving the boot to Syria. Now Israel is about to kick the crap out of them.

Tough decisions. Afghanistan, Iran, Iraq, Lebanon, North Korea, Syria. And to make matters worse, Red Skelton passed away today. :(

[Brooklyn]

That's the thing, if Ole Pancho was funded and politically supported by Mexico, it might have been a different story.

Hezbollah crossed into Israel and conducted the raid. Lebanon's policy is basically let Hezbollah do what it wants in southern Lebanon. Probably out of political stability to their year old government. Their official line is that, "We are not responsible to safeguard Israel's border."

So Hezbollah goes unchecked and is funded and supported by Syria and Iran.



Yes, they're funded and supported by Syria and Iran, but not by Lebanon. Let's be real for a second. If Lebanon had even attempted to fight Hezbollah they would have got their asses kicked and then Hezbollah would control the ENTIRE country.

The countries Israel should be bombing right now are Syria and Iran, not Lebanon.

[yellowwing]

I second that opinion on Syria and Iran. Lebanon is still accountable for what goes on in their backyard. Try as they may to absolve themselves, its still from their nation that the attacks were launched.

[Erthwerm]

Brooklyn, I disagree. I think any attempt to strike fear or terror into anybody is a terrorist attack. For years there has been a lot of struggle between Israel and Palestine. Personally, I back Israel but part of me also thinks they might be viewing things like a cornered animal. However, with all of this stuff happening in Korea, Iran and Iraq, I think the United States Military is busy enough. I myself am most preoccupied with the situation with North Korea. My parents live in Honolulu and I fear for them. Hawaii is a perfect place to attack, unfortunately because not only is it a valuable state, but every branch of the armed forces has a base/station/barracks there. Oh well, it doesn't matter, if I'm fortunate enough to become a Marine, I'll be guaranteed to find "work."

[JWG]

I second that opinion on Syria and Iran. Lebanon is still accountable for what goes on in their backyard. Try as they may to absolve themselves, its still from their nation that the attacks were launched.

Agreed.

Also.. an UPDATE for everyone:

It was released briefly on the news, and then was shut up from what it looks like.

The Missile that hit Haifa, Israel was fired by Iranian Revolutionary Guard Units who are stationed and work side-by-side with Hozbollah in Southern Lebanon. Israel said they are going to strike all Hozbollah targes.. including all residents of Hozbollah, members, and HQ's of Hozbollah.. which could inclue South Beiruit. (Sp?)

[The Sandman]

Why is it ok for the U.S. to say "if you aren't with us you are against us," but Israel cannot? They are a sovereign power with equal right to defend their sovereignty as we do. Of course, there are certain laws and rules of morality to follow in said defense, but as long as they don't crazy their right to repel borders should not be challenged. That being said they are their own worst enemies by acting with a gun and a bomb before dimplomacy. Hell even W gave Saddam a couple days to leave, but oh well.
At this point in time I can't say that I much blame Israel. They have been burned, bombed, cut, shot, hung, dragged, and everything else for what, almost 6 years now? There comes a time where enough is enough. I can tell you this. If you walked into my house, and killed my family, then when and hid at a friends house... I would tear the walls down and go through whomever stood in my way to get to you. There wouldn't be a single person left alive to tell the story. This is the same thing just on a national scale.

Again, they are doing the same thing we did. We went into Afghanistan and Iraq to chase down terroists and their supplies. They are going into Gaza, Lebanon, and Syria. We both might go into Iran. Us chastising them for what they are doing is like John Kerry and his buddy Murtha and their "media machine" chastising America and Americans for fighting out fight.

[Brooklyn]

I would tear the walls down and go through whomever stood in my way to get to you. There wouldn't be a single person left alive to tell the story. This is the same thing just on a national scale.



Actually, the equilivant of what Israel is doing would be if you went there looking for the triggerman and you killed everyone in the house but the guy that killed your family.

Something everyone is failing to realize here...Lebanon didn't supply, fund, condone, harbor or help Hezbollah in any way.

Something very important to mention here is even Pres. Bush himself told Israel to be cautious and not attack Lebanon's gvt. Israel's strongest supporter even realizes the mistakes they are making there.

[kovanfleet]

Actually, the equilivant of what Israel is doing would be if you went there looking for the triggerman and you killed everyone in the house but the guy that killed your family.

Something everyone is failing to realize here...Lebanon didn't supply, fund, condone, harbor or help Hezbollah in any way.

its more like lebanon is the people that let the crazy killer stay in there basement without calling the police, knowing exactly the killers intentions.

[The Sandman]

*shrug* collateral damage doesnt bother me. the government of lebanon doesnt harbor them, but the people do.

[JWG]

Alright, the fact of the matter is.. plain and simple. I'm not going to discuss if it's right or wrong, cause everyone has different views, and their not going to change.

Israel has taken enough crap.. now they're fighting back.. with ALOT of force. They won't be bullied any longer.

As for Lebanon, it is unforunate for their government that they are too young and can't control their own people who are harboring and many times probably being recruited and joining Hezbollah. That in turn, Lebanon becomes the fighting grounds.. because it is where Hezbollah main source is.

Affecting the country of Lebanon or not.. Israel is not about to stop to think about that when they have their own country to worry about. Every country has a right to defend itself.. and with terrorism.. this is how it is.

Plain and simple. Terrorism is sick and has absolutely has no morales on how about they get their point across. They kill innocent civilians, mutilated bodies (including our own Military, and MARINES.), burned innocent "civilian structures" , etc.

There is no room for politics in effectively battling Terrorism. You must fight the fire.. with fire. I'm not saying Israel needs to go around mutilating bodies, killing innocent civlians (targetting them, not by accident.)

I'm not going to play the Monday Quarterbacker and judge what Israel is doing.. because let's face it. They're in the middle of a bunch of neighbors who would love to see their country crumble. All those Arab nations over there are in someway corrupted by Terrorism (openly or not). They're all working together for a 'Jihad.'

Just like America, we were told we were being too hasty, attacking Afghanistan and didn't get much support, and now in Iraq (including our own American Citizens). I'm not about to be that person to Israel when they're simply defending their country.

Alright, enough politics for me.. when my country tells me where to go, I'm going to go. No need for me to blab on any further on things I can't change. I can only fight and defend the country I live in.. and THANK GOD.. that the UNITED STATES OF AMERICA who has the greatest fighting force on the face of this earth.. THE UNITED STATES MARINE CORPS!

[Echo_Four_Bravo]

Brooklyn, you couldn't be more wrong if you tried. To sum up the idea you put forward, it isn't Lebanon's fault that Hezbollah is taking action against Israel, and in fact Israel's actions breed terrorism in the region. You've also said that the actions by Hezbollah and Hamas, which are both terrorist groups, aren't terrorism.

The fact is that Lebanon has to be held reponsible for what happens within its borders. If a group from Canada were to begin lobbing missiles into America, rest assured we would hold Canada responsible. This point is something that cannot be debated since the UN passed a resolution requiring Lebanon to disarm all of the militia groups. It did, with the exception of Hezbollah. They allowed them to keep their weapons, and to get new weapons from Iran, and to continue to receive support from Syria. The fragile democracy in Lebanon is about to fall, because they wouldn't take the needed actions to keep their own people in line.

You also keep saying that a nation cannot attack its neighbors for what they did in the past. Assuming that to be true, it still doesn't apply. The attacks and kidnappings didn't happen in the past, they happened within the last month. Israel is holding to the doctrine of the ancient Romans, and it is something I wish the US would do. If you harm an Israeli (especially one in the IDF) you will not get away with it. If we would have started treating terrorists like this when it first became an issue, I don't believe we would have the problem with it that we do today. If we would have leveled Lebanon and Syria after the Marine barracks was blown up, this issue wouldn't be anything to consider now. If we would have taken aggressive action against Iran when they took hostages and reinserted the Shaw as rightful ruler, they wouldn't be a problem now. Simply put, violence is the only language terrorists understand. So, we have to win the violence of action equation to be successful.

[Echo_Four_Bravo]

Something everyone is failing to realize here...Lebanon didn't supply, fund, condone, harbor or help Hezbollah in any way.

This is pure BS. Hezbollah is a part of the government of Lebanon. They operate much as Hamas does, as a political party and a terrorist group. If Lebanon wants to allow Hezbollah to be a part of the fabric of their society, they have to understand that there will be a price to pay.


Something very important to mention here is even Pres. Bush himself told Israel to be cautious and not attack Lebanon's gvt. Israel's strongest supporter even realizes the mistakes they are making there.
He didn't say they were making mistakes. He said he wanted them to be cautions, which they are being. They are dropping leadlets telling people to stay away from specific locations because they are targets. IF the people are too stupid to get away from the target, I don't feel bad for them.

But, you brought up a good point. America is Israel's biggest supporter. You want to be a US Marine. There is a major conflict brewing that involves two nation that the US would like to see become less of a problem in the region. If I were you, I would get used to the idea of being in the area and fighting on Israel's side in this thing, because at this point it is a very real possibility.

[rktect3j]

I think, fortunatly for us, that we will not be fighting, per se, on Isreals side. We may have the same enemy but we really are not friends. At best we are allies in a limited capacity, ie money. Isreal will do whatever it takes to ensure their own survival, as they should. Again, we seem to have the same enemy but for different reasons. Their war is hundreds of years old and ours is relativly new in comparison. Lets not get trapped into their problems by being to eager. They can handle themselves. Good luck.

[Brooklyn]

Brooklyn, you couldn't be more wrong if you tried. To sum up the idea you put forward, it isn't Lebanon's fault that Hezbollah is taking action against Israel, and in fact Israel's actions breed terrorism in the region. You've also said that the actions by Hezbollah and Hamas, which are both terrorist groups, aren't terrorism.



I said these specific attacks by Hezbollah aren't of terrorist nature. I'm well aware that they are terrorists, but in my eyes, attacking tanks and armored vehicles isn't terrorism it's war.



The fragile democracy in Lebanon is about to fall, because they wouldn't take the needed actions to keep their own people in line.


Actually, from what I read, the members of Hezbollah are exiled Palestinians, not Lebanese.



Assuming that to be true, it still doesn't apply. The attacks and kidnappings didn't happen in the past, they happened within the last month.


I said that in response to someone saying Israel has the right to attack Lebanon because of things done over 15 years ago by non-Lebanese.


If you harm an Israeli (especially one in the IDF) you will not get away with it.



As far as I can tell, they are actually getting away with it because Israel is attacking Lebanon's infrastructure and gvt. buildings. They have only recently started actually attacking Hezbollah's bases.


Hezbollah is a part of the government of Lebanon

As much as there were Socialists/Marxists in the U.S. gvt. during the Cold War. In other words, they have absolutely no impact on the gvt.


If I were you, I would get used to the idea of being in the area and fighting on Israel's side in this thing, because at this point it is a very real possibility.

Like I said, I have great confidence in the U.S. gvt. I have little confidence in Olmert/Israeli gvt. I don't think the U.S. would ever do something as illogical as what Israel is doing. If I didn't have that confidence in my country, I wouldn't dare join the Marine Corps.

For the record here, I'm not saying Israel shouldn't attack Hezbollah, even in Lebanon's borders. If that's what they were doing I'd fully support it. What baffles me is the fact that we now have the first ever war between two Democracies and the people that caused it all are not the ones being ****ed.




We may have the same enemy but we really are not friends.



"The enemy of my enemy is my friend." If Israel weren't in the ME I think it's safe to say we wouldn't be as friendly with them. And I'm sure we wouldn't be helping them even after they were caught selling secrets to the Chinese.

[tkmac58]

Actually, the equilivant of what Israel is doing would be if you went there looking for the triggerman and you killed everyone in the house but the guy that killed your family.

Something everyone is failing to realize here...Lebanon didn't supply, fund, condone, harbor or help Hezbollah in any way.

Something very important to mention here is even Pres. Bush himself told Israel to be cautious and not attack Lebanon's gvt. Israel's strongest supporter even realizes the mistakes they are making there.
First of all the President is not stupid, he is from Texas, he knows how to say the right thing in politics. The president wouldnt shed a tear if Syria, Iran and the Hez Ragheads were wiped off the face of the earth. Let me give you a History Lesson. in 1983 Yassar Arafat(King Terrorist) was befriended by the Lebaneese and spent (when he wasnt sucking a camel off) numerous time in Beirut with the Hez Ragheads and the Blonde Lebaneese hash leaders. If you read the FM Manuels and several books written by the survivors from the Beirut Barracks bombings you will find that they wre all joined at the hip. So what makes you think that they have changed, a new govt, kicking Syria out. Give me a break,the Marines have went into to Beirut before, as you know we have a History there. The Isrealis have shown plenty of restraint and its there time. They have never lost to these pigs and we need to support them every way possible, they are the only non muslim democracy in the **** hole middle east and if we need them they will come. The president has kept them caged long enough. They fight fire with fire, there tactics are just like there enemies terror against terror. Do you remember the 72 Olympics, if your to young watch that BS anti jewish movie Muniich, and dont forget Entebbe. These rag heads have been after them for an eternity and have slaughtered just as many of them as the jews have. The only problem they now have to face is now a days for the last 50-60 years, they have Uncle Sams support and some of our technology, even though theres is extremely advanced. These raghead countries cannot beat Israel, even without us, they have tried and failed. My understanding of this blog is that we have some people (not sure if your a marine) that believe that the people of Lebanon are innocent and that our Pres is puting up the pussy flag and singing cum baya . You who believe this are entitled because thats what we fight for, if your an active duty Marine, SEMPER FI, I can tell you that the time will come when we fight side by side, I did allot of training with there Spec Forces and KFIR airwingers back in the 80s, sure they were *******s but so are we when it comes to being the best. They were combat hardened from fighting war after war with Iraq and all of there friends. They say that one of the only reasons they hate us is because we support the jews, thats a smokescreen because they know they will someday lose there foothold on the middle east if us Innfidels survive. Look Iran fell to this BS way of thought and it took them back to the 4th century, slowly with the help of our enemies they have rebuilt, but there govt are pawns for the Ass a tolas, church and state seperation in Iran is a myth. Watch very closely and pray for the good guys with UZIs.

TKMAC58

[JWG]

Quote:
<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=alt2 style="BORDER-RIGHT: 1px inset; BORDER-TOP: 1px inset; BORDER-LEFT: 1px inset; BORDER-BOTTOM: 1px inset">If I were you, I would get used to the idea of being in the area and fighting on Israel's side in this thing, because at this point it is a very real possibility. </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

Like I said, I have great confidence in the U.S. gvt. I have little confidence in Olmert/Israeli gvt. I don't think the U.S. would ever do something as illogical as what Israel is doing. If I didn't have that confidence in my country, I wouldn't dare join the Marine Corps.

For the record here, I'm not saying Israel shouldn't attack Hezbollah, even in Lebanon's borders. If that's what they were doing I'd fully support it. What baffles me is the fact that we now have the first ever war between two Democracies and the people that caused it all are not the ones being ****ed.

I'm hoping, and PRAYING.. that since you're wanting to become a Marine, that you realize it is a big possibility your 'trust' in the U.S Govt not to help Israel fight this thing may very well do just that.. and if you're in the Marines you don't have a say on if you go or not.

Fact of the matter is.. Israel has every right to do what they're doing.. after all.. THEY'RE JUST DEFENDING THEIR SELVES FOR GOD SAKES! We'll never see eye to eye on this, I realize this. But I just hate to see someone thinking of joining the Corps like myself not realize that the Israel is not the bad guy in this.. just merely fighting the dirtbags who've been itching for chance to call a 'Jihad' on the "Zionist nation of Israel" and wipe them away. Israel is small.. but they don't take no crap.. and they certainly say things they mean.. and get things done when they say they will do it.

I don't know, maybe I'm crazy, but what am I not seeing here? Israel is defending itself.. and now they're the bad guys. They're are thousands of innocent children and women being killed by these 'Jihadists.' Replace Israel with the title of United States.. and tell me you wouldn't have a rifle in your hands, a helmet on your head, and bombs dropping in Lebanon to kill the Hezbollah, and in Gaza fighting all the towelheads (lack of a BETTER word..) that need to be ELIMINATED.

I just find it funny you're critisizing Israel for bombing "civilian structures" and "civilian infristructures" when not only are the Hezbollah TERRORISTS staying close to civilians and their structures/infrastructure to get the same response you're sending out how it is bad, but Israel has dropped warnings to civlilians to evacuate the area because it is going to be bombed. That is how terrorism is used.. to make it a win/win situation for them. They stay alive, they win. They die, they still win because people see innocent people dieing because they HIDE and SECURE themselves around the civilian structures and infrastructures.

WAR is WAR. My rifle and helmet are read.. is yours?

[BigCat1]

You don't have to be a historian to understand the intention of Israel's enemies. You only have to read the newspapers...

Exhibit A: Gaza. Just last September, Isarael evacuated Gaza completely.It declared the border between Israel and Gaza an international frontier, renouncing any claim to the territory. Gaza became the first independent Palestinian territory in history. Yet the Gazans continued the war. They turned Gaza into a base for launching rocket attacks against Israel and for digging tunnel under the border to conduct attacks like the one that killed two Israeli soldiers on June 25 and yielded a wounded hostage brought back to Gaza. Israeli tanks have now had to return to Gaza to try to rescue the hostage and suppress the rocket fire.

Exhibit B: South Lebanon. Two weeks later, on July 12, the Lebanese terror organization, Hezbollah, which has representation in the Lebanese parliament and in the Cabinet, launched an attack inot Israel that killed eight soldiers and wounded two, who were brought back to Lebanon as hostages.

What's the grievance here? Israel withdrew from Lebanon completely in 2000. It was so scrupulous in making sure that not one square inch of Lebanon was left inadvertently occupied that it asked the U.N. to verify the exact frontier defining Lebanon's southern border and retreated behind it. This 'blue line' was approved by the Security Council, which declared that Israel had fully complied with resolutions demanding its withdrawal from Lebanon.

Grievance satisfied. Yet what happens? Hezbollah has done to South Lebanon exactly what Hamas has done to Gaza: turn it into a military base and terrorist operations center from which to continue the war against Israel. South Lebanon bristles with Hezbollah's Katyusha rockets that put northern Israel under the gun. Fired in the first hours of fighting, just 85 of these killed two Israelis and wounded over 100 in Israel's northern towns.

Over the last 6 years, Hezbollah has launched periodic raids and rocket attacks into Israel. Israeli retaliation has led to the cessation of these provocations...until the next time convenient for Hezbollah. Wednesday was such a time. One terror base located in fully unoccupied Arab terrtory (South Lebanon) attacks Israel in support of another terror base in another fully unoccupied Arab territory (Gaza).

Why? Because occupation was a mere excuse to persuade gullible and historically ignorant Westerners to support the Arab cause against Israel. The issue is, and has always been, Israel's existence. That is what is at stake.

[tkmac58]

You don't have to be a historian to understand the intention of Israel's enemies. You only have to read the newspapers...

Exhibit A: Gaza. Just last September, Isarael evacuated Gaza completely.It declared the border between Israel and Gaza an international frontier, renouncing any claim to the territory. Gaza became the first independent Palestinian territory in history. Yet the Gazans continued the war. They turned Gaza into a base for launching rocket attacks against Israel and for digging tunnel under the border to conduct attacks like the one that killed two Israeli soldiers on June 25 and yielded a wounded hostage brought back to Gaza. Israeli tanks have now had to return to Gaza to try to rescue the hostage and suppress the rocket fire.

Exhibit B: South Lebanon. Two weeks later, on July 12, the Lebanese terror organization, Hezbollah, which has representation in the Lebanese parliament and in the Cabinet, launched an attack inot Israel that killed eight soldiers and wounded two, who were brought back to Lebanon as hostages.

What's the grievance here? Israel withdrew from Lebanon completely in 2000. It was so scrupulous in making sure that not one square inch of Lebanon was left inadvertently occupied that it asked the U.N. to verify the exact frontier defining Lebanon's southern border and retreated behind it. This 'blue line' was approved by the Security Council, which declared that Israel had fully complied with resolutions demanding its withdrawal from Lebanon.

Grievance satisfied. Yet what happens? Hezbollah has done to South Lebanon exactly what Hamas has done to Gaza: turn it into a military base and terrorist operations center from which to continue the war against Israel. South Lebanon bristles with Hezbollah's Katyusha rockets that put northern Israel under the gun. Fired in the first hours of fighting, just 85 of these killed two Israelis and wounded over 100 in Israel's northern towns.

Over the last 6 years, Hezbollah has launched periodic raids and rocket attacks into Israel. Israeli retaliation has led to the cessation of these provocations...until the next time convenient for Hezbollah. Wednesday was such a time. One terror base located in fully unoccupied Arab terrtory (South Lebanon) attacks Israel in support of another terror base in another fully unoccupied Arab territory (Gaza).

Why? Because occupation was a mere excuse to persuade gullible and historically ignorant Westerners to support the Arab cause against Israel. The issue is, and has always been, Israel's existence. That is what is at stake.
GySgt
You hit on the Nail, the existance of a jewish state in the a Arab dominated region, one thing I would also add is what the thug leader of Iran said a couple weeks ago about the annihilation of Israel (words to that effect). Isnt he supposed to be stateman or leader. The fact remains that the only thing they listen to is force and even that doesnt work thru time unless its constant.

TKMAC58

[JWG]

GySgt
You hit on the Nail, the existance of a jewish state in the a Arab dominated region, one thing I would also add is what the thug leader of Iran said a couple weeks ago about the annihilation of Israel (words to that effect). Isnt he supposed to be stateman or leader. The fact remains that the only thing they listen to is force and even that doesnt work thru time unless its constant.

TKMAC58

Agreed! Nice post, GySgt! :beer:

[Old Marine]

Israel has shown that they will take no crap from terrorists which is really more than I can say about the U.S. at this time.

When terrorists hit in a country, that country should respond immediately and make the terrorists pay for whatever they did.

If civilians happen to get in the way, War Is Hell.

[JWG]

Israel has shown that they will take no crap from terrorists which is really more than I can say about the U.S. at this time.

When terrorists hit in a country, that country should respond immediately and make the terrorists pay for whatever they did.

If civilians happen to get in the way, War Is Hell.

Couldn't agree more with you, Gunny! U.S is too wrapped up in playing favorites right and we're un a bunch. I'm glad tha Israel is doing what ought to be done, and hopefully we will begin to take out these ragheaded terrorists the right way!

I can't wait to be able to be called a Brother to yourself, Gunny. You, and all of my hopefully future Brothers hold a very high place in my heart and pride for this country.

Not many people.. many times including my own family can understand the feeling.. the feeling I have, and many others alike me have.. I always tell everyone who calls me Gung-Ho or tell me I'm too crazy over the Marines and wanting to try at becoming a Marine and getting a EGA.. I jut tell em..

"Because if this country is to fall tommorow, I want to know I faught, I faught my hardest for my country, and I'll know I did everything in my power and soul to do so to keep this country alive, breathing, and FREE.. and I wanna do it along side the Marines.. brothers among brothers, fighting for each other.. to keep this country in the beauty it is now."

[Barret]

I've seen some people say that we will possibly get involved in this(I Hope we won't). They say that the "Dominoes" are lined up, with each country being a Dominoe, and that the U.S Getting involved may set off a chain reaction that will spark many conflicts between Korea, China,etc. And the U.S and Allies. Hmm......Dominoes? Chain Reactions? Sounds Familiar...........

[Echo_Four_Bravo]

Brooklyn and everyone else that thinks we won't get involved in this mess. Israel is the one true friend we have in the region. To claim that there isn't a strong tie between our two nations is pure folly. The number of nations with which we share a closer bond is limited. As long as this conflict stays betwen Israel and Hezbollah, we won't be involved. But, as Lebanon continues to turn their back on the actions of the terrorist group (which isn't like a Marxist in the US. They're very active and have a large voice. It is a multiparty palimentary system. Their voice in the government is large. Saying otherwise is either a mistake or an outright lie.) we will become more involved. If and when Syria is attacked, it will draw in at least Syria, and likely Iran, As soon as it looks like Israel may have more than they can handle, Marines, Rangers, and Airborne troops will be pouring into Israel. If you think that is a mistake, I think you're wrong. I believe we should have boots on the ground in Israel now. If you think it is wrong when you're a Marine, you will have problems. You will have to do what you're told, and keep your mouth shut about it.

[marinegreen]

I seriously dont think Iran will get to stupid with this skirmish going on right now,they know we'll send a couple sticks of heavy metal down on em(Talk about a sand storm)

[JWG]

Agreed, EFB

As far as I'm concerned with Hezbollah, the terrorist group is supported (and some would say funded and supplied heavily) by Iran and Syria. I'm not sure what's up with Egypt.. but I know that the wall between Egypt and the Gaza Strip was blown a hole in so the two could travel through.

Gaza strip is forming up.. and it's not just Gaza's regular 'residents.' Iran and Syria, as far as I know are going to be part of the 'Jihad' Hezbollah has already deemed, it seems.

Israel is toying around with Hezbollah right now.. I know they got MUCH more than they're showing everyone at the moment. Iran and Syria are already helping fight Israel, just not openly. They're using Hezbollah as a cover at the moment. If things get much messier over there, everyone will show their true colors.. and like you said, the U.S will end up being sent over there to help Israel.

You see, Brooklyn. The reason I'm concerned about your views is that.. if/when you join the United States Marine Corps.. the FACT of the matter is, it's a VERY BIG chance you might be sent over there.. and your view of the U.S of being "smarter than that" to send us over there.. will be a big wake up call to you. War is hell, and when/if that day comes.. and I'm in the Corps and I call you my Brother, I want to know you have no doubts why we're over there. You're there fighting to keep me, and your fellow Brothers alive, and I'm there to do the same. F*** politics.. that's all it is once you're there. Politics is what will get us killed over there and if anything, our rifles and each other are what keep us alive.

[Marine84]

All ready on the left?

All ready on the right?

All ready on the firing line..................COMMENCE FIRING!

[Brooklyn]

There's way too much for me to respond to here, but...




You see, Brooklyn. The reason I'm concerned about your views is that.. if/when you join the United States Marine Corps.. the FACT of the matter is, it's a VERY BIG chance you might be sent over there.. and your view of the U.S of being "smarter than that" to send us over there.. will be a big wake up call to you.

I don't think you're fully understanding what's taking place. All this stuff everyone is seeing on the news isn't Israel attacking Hezbollah, it's them attacking the Lebanese gvt. If you think the U.S. is about to send Marines into Lebanon to help them with this you are sorely mistaken.



F*** politics..

? What's the point of this thread again? I thought you wanted to discuss what's going on over there. Now you're saying "****" the biggest part of it? Without failed politics there would be no reason for bullets or bombs.



I apologize to the people I undoubtely left out in my response but I've had a splitting headache since yesterday and there is simply too many new posts for me to respond to.


*edit* Just saw this...


But I just hate to see someone thinking of joining the Corps like myself not realize that the Israel is not the bad guy in this.. just merely fighting the dirtbags who've been itching for chance to call a 'Jihad' on the "Zionist nation of Israel"



As I've said, I see no problem with Israel attacking Hezbollah, but I'd like to see some proof on your claim that Lebanon has somehow incited this. As I've said before, even our President places the blame on Syria and Iran, no one but Isreal thinks Lebanon sparked this.

[JWG]

I don't know what else to say to Brooklyn.. just God speed.

I know I'm ready to go wherever the Corps tell me to go.. and eliminate whoever they tell me to eliminate. Politics or not.. I'm still discussing Israel fighting the dirtbags who threaten them. No need for me to talk politics on it.. I'm talking WAR.

Israel has my support.. and whatever the United States wants me to go when it is my turn to serve, it's where I go. Get your helmet and rifle ready, my friend.

By the way.. have you not read any other posts than mine? Many people have already explained why "Lebanon" is still responsible for the actions in their country.. weak or not. It's being taken care of now, regardless.

[ERICUSMC]

Israel is 100% in the right in this situation. They are the only true democracy in the Middle-East and our only true friend. Surrounded by Muslim terrorist countries that break promises and treaties on a daily routine, force is the only language they understand.
If Mexico or Canada was allowing terrorist to lob shells into the USA or allowing terrorist to base their operations there against us don't you think we would take the same actions Israel did? If a terrorist group tunneled under the border and took our Border Patrol Agents or Military personel captive, don't you think we would respond? If it was your family member or tent mate wouldn't you want us to take action? In a murky world of wars and conflicts, Israel is the good guy.
Its Israel's land, always was, never belonged to the Palestinians (do some checking on the history of the Palestians and you will see that the whole idea of them owning the land and being a people is a farce with no foundation of facts) Israel is there to stay as a Nation and a People (their ownership of the land is well documented in fact ). I thank God that we have a President who is currently supporting Israel. Good job Israel, keep up the good work!

[yellowwing]

It was a colonial protectorate, and then waves of Hebrew immigrants settled their under the Union Jack. Eventually they pushed them out and declared an independent state.

The effects of colonialism is still being felt in nations all over the world. Now Israel is all growed up and can get into wars all by themselves.

Echo Four Bravo, I agree about our possible boots on the ground, but I don't think, (and pray) that they will need our guns.

[Brooklyn]

No need for me to talk politics on it.. I'm talking WAR.



War is politics carried out by guns instead of words.



have you not read any other posts than mine?


When I responded I wasn't on for long and as I said, there was much too much to respond to so I just responded to the last post directed at me.



Many people have already explained why "Lebanon" is still responsible for the actions in their country.. weak or not


I've seen the arguments but they are flawed. To say that Lebanon is responsible simply because it's their border is wrong. Lebanon hasn't the power to stop Hezbollah, whether they want to or not. So, Israel is punishing them for being too weak to punish Hezbollah then? Flawed to say the least. Not to mention, attacking Lebanon's gvt. won't weaken Hezbollah in the least.



They are the only true democracy in the Middle-East



Actually, Lebanon's gvt. is democratic ( atleast for the time being ).


If Mexico or Canada was allowing terrorist to lob shells into the USA or allowing terrorist to base their operations there against us don't you think we would take the same actions Israel did?



Assuming you're asking me, no I don't think we would. Refer back to my Pancho Villa post to see why.


If a terrorist group tunneled under the border and took our Border Patrol Agents or Military personel captive, don't you think we would respond?



Saw on the news lastnight about a group of Mexicans that crossed the border and fired on some border guards. FYI, we didn't attack Mexico.



Its Israel's land, always was, never belonged to the Palestinians



I think the late, great, Teddy Roosevelt would argue that the land belongs to whoever has the biggest military ( Darwinism if you will ). Borders are made by whoever has the military to control them.

[Lithium]

All I can say is GET SOME ISRAEL, GET SOME!!!!

[JWG]

All I can say is GET SOME ISRAEL, GET SOME!!!!

MOTO!!!!!! :thumbup: :flag: :usmc:

[teddyn]

I don't sympathise with Hezbollah at all for what they did. I did sympathise with the Palistinians; 2 Israeli soldiers were captured, yes, but it was a major embarassement for the Israeli government that those criminals managed it and the stunt was pulled by a small number of individuals. Their response was to use advanced military jets to bombard the tiny amount of infrastructure there remains in the poverty-striken Gaza strip and West bank. Public opinion was dwindling, international support faltering, because Israel was barging into another country and dishing out collective punishment for one incident.
BUT! Then Hezbollah, a pseudo-state with Syrian and Iranian backing that is one of the main groups that sticks up for the Palistinians, decides to take matters into their own hands and 'protect' the Palistinians and they capture a few more Israeli soldiers and kill 8. Israel then begins to use the same tactics against Hezbollah in Lebanon as they were using against the Palistinians: mobilize the troops, begin airstriking many targets and infrastructure and just carry on dishing out violence in the hope that their enemy will just give up. Hezbollah retaliates. Israel retaliates.

I don't see who is gaining from this. I don't think this needs to have happened. I don't get why George W. thinks it a good idea to delay ceasefire talks until Israel has had a chance to 'punish' Hezbollah. It is a militant group from 'among' the people. It's like a violent political party. It's not the same thing as an army. Bombing may knock them down, but it creates festering resentments and yearnings for revenge that could last even beyond our lifetimes.

Just thought I'd end on a funnier note courtesy of Jon Stewart...... What we should do is convince North Korea to capture an Israeli soldier, then wait to see what happens. ;)
Sorry, lol, a bit of sadistic humour is what I've grown to like from living in the UK the past couple of years :D

[Lithium]

I don't see who is gaining from this. I don't think this needs to have happened. I don't get why George W. thinks it a good idea to delay ceasefire talks until Israel has had a chance to 'punish' Hezbollah. It is a militant group from 'among' the people. It's like a violent political party. It's not the same thing as an army. Bombing may knock them down, but it creates festering resentments and yearnings for revenge that could last even beyond our lifetimes.

Seeing as I have signed my papers, I officially beleive that I have no right to a political opinion, partly because I do not want one, and it makes it that much easier to do what I have to do in the long run. But I will say this. Why is it always up to America to have cease-fire talks? Although our alliances strongly back Israel, I do not see how the current conflict has anything to do with us. Israel decided to finally stand up for itself after all the years of hearing about terror attacks. Therefore it is up to Israel to determine when cease-fire talks are acceptable.

It amazes me how in times of "crisis", the world looks to the U.S. to do something, but when we do, we get criticized. If I were the President, and thank God I am not, I would tell the world that if they want us to solve their problems, then it will be on our terms, our way. No ifs, ands, or buts! If they do not like the way we are doing it, then we will simply stop and let them have a shot at it. If you do not have a solution to the problem, then do not complain!

Wow I feel better now:)

[Brooklyn]

It's really quite simple.

The U.S. is the world's only superpower. A hegemony if you will. It is our job by default to be the world's police, it's the way things work.



Israel decided to finally stand up for itself after all the years of hearing about terror attacks.


If you think this is Israel's first offensive against Palestinians you are mistaken.

[yellowwing]

hegemony - The predominant influence, as of a state, region, or group, over another or others.
Our freedom and economy allow us to build hardware like aircraft carriers, and then train and equip 200,000 hard ass warriors we call Our Beloved Corps.

In all market environments, if you make the rules you'll always be on top. On other levels its called Leadership and Initiative. Don't let your adversary dictate what you are going to do.

Israel has had enough of living under the shadow of Hezbollah rockets on their borders. Any negotiations will be difficult because the Hez are only militia faction. How do you negotiate with a mob?

[BigCat1]

There is crisis and there is opportunity. Amid the general wringing of hands over the seemingly endless and escalating Israel-Hezbollah fighting, everyone asks: Where will it end?

The answer, blindingly clear, begins with understanding that this crisis represents a rare, perhaps irreproducible, opportunity.

Every important party in the region and in the world, except the radical Islamists in Tehran and their clients in Damascus, wants Hezbollah disarmed and removed from south Lebanon so that it is no longer able to destabilize the peace of both Lebanon and the broader Middle East.

Which parties? Start with the great powers. In September 2004, they passed U.N. Security Council Resolution 1559, demanding that Hezbollah disarm and allow the Lebanese army to take back control of south Lebanon.

The resolution enjoyed the sponsorship of the United States and, yes, France. As the former mandatory power in Lebanon, France was important in helping the Lebanese expel Syria during last year's Cedar Revolution, but it understands that Lebanon's independence and security are forfeit so long as Hezbollah -- a lawless, terrorist, private militia answering to Syria and Iran -- occupies south Lebanon as a rogue mini-state.

Then there are the Arabs, beginning with the Lebanese who want Hezbollah out. The majority of Lebanese -- Christian, Druze, Sunni Muslim and secular -- bitterly resent their country being hijacked by Hezbollah and turned into a war zone. And in the name of what Lebanese interest? Israel evacuated every square inch of Lebanon six years ago.

The other Arabs have spoken, too. In a stunning development, the 22-member Arab League criticized Hezbollah for provoking the current crisis. It is unprecedented for the Arab League to criticize any Arab party while it is actively engaged in hostilities with Israel. But the Arab states know that Hezbollah, a Shiite militia in the service of Persian Iran, is a threat not just to Lebanon but to them as well. Egypt, Saudi Arabia and Jordan have openly criticized Hezbollah for starting a war on what is essentially Iran's timetable (to distract attention from Iran's pending referral to the Security Council for sanctions over its nuclear program). They are far more worried about Iran and its proxies than about Israel. They are therefore eager to see Hezbollah disarmed and defanged.

Fine. Everyone agrees it must be done. But who to do it? No one. The Lebanese are too weak. The Europeans don't invade anyone. After its bitter experience of 20 years ago, the U.S. has a Lebanon allergy. And Israel could not act out of the blue because it would immediately have been branded the aggressor and forced to retreat.

Hence the golden, unprecedented opportunity. Hezbollah makes a fatal mistake. It crosses the U.N.-delineated international frontier to attack Israel, kill soldiers and take hostages. This cross-border aggression is so naked that even Russia joins in the G-8 summit communique blaming Hezbollah for the violence and calling for the restoration of Lebanese sovereignty in the south.

But only one country has the capacity to do the job. That is Israel, now recognized by the world as forced into this fight by Hezbollah's aggression. The road to a solution is therefore clear: Israel liberates south Lebanon and gives it back to the Lebanese.

It starts by preparing the ground with air power, just as the Gulf War began with a 40-day air campaign. But if all that happens is the air campaign, the result will be failure. Hezbollah will remain in place, Israel will remain under the gun, Lebanon will remain divided and unfree. And this war will start again at a time of Hezbollah and Iran's choosing.

Just as in Kuwait 1991, what must follow the air campaign is a land invasion to clear the ground and expel the occupier. Israel must retake south Lebanon and expel Hezbollah. It would then declare the obvious: that it has no claim to Lebanese territory and is prepared to withdraw and hand south Lebanon over to the Lebanese army (augmented perhaps by an international force), thus finally bringing about what the world has demanded -- implementation of Resolution 1559 and restoration of south Lebanon to Lebanese sovereignty.

Only two questions remain: Israel's will and America's wisdom. Does Prime Minister Ehud Olmert have the courage to do what is so obviously necessary? And will Secretary of State Rice's upcoming peace trip to the Middle East force a premature cease-fire that spares her the humiliation of coming home empty-handed but prevents precisely the kind of decisive military outcome that would secure the interests of Israel, Lebanon, the moderate Arabs and the West?

[JWG]

It's really quite simple.

The U.S. is the world's only superpower. A hegemony if you will. It is our job by default to be the world's police, it's the way things work.



If you think this is Israel's first offensive against Palestinians you are mistaken.

I'm not too concerned about Israel anymore now.. than I am America. Times for eyes to opened to this group we know as "Hezbollah."

---

From Mojtaba Bigdeli - Iranian Hezbollah's Spokesman:


They have been trained and they can become fully armed. We are ready to dispatch them to every corner of the world to jeopardize Israel and America's interests. We are only waiting.


If America wants to ignite World War III... we welcome it.


Again.. I'm ready to have that rifle in my hands and that helmet on my head.. are you?

[Echo_Four_Bravo]

I am not going to get into a political discussion about this any more than I already have. Simply put, there are people on this thread that think they know much more than they actually do, and try to twist the argument to match with what they want to believe. I see no point in continuing to debate a subject when no minds will be changed. I know for a fact I'm correct- if someone disagrees I will allow them to do so.

That said, let's remember that this group, that some are painting as the victim, is a long time enemy of the US and the Marine Corps. Hezbollah killed 241 Marines in a suicide attack. If that isn't enough for you to believe that they should be eliminated by any force necessary, I don't know what you're doing on this site. The same ship, with the same unit, is standing by to once again deliver Marines into Lebanon as a result of the actions of Hezbollah. Don't let the history escape. We owe these people some pay back, and I am thrilled that Israel is doing it for us.

[Camper51]

And just WHOSE soil are these bases located?? I believe it is Lebanon's. Thus Lebanon can be held accountable, weak or not. Just what do you think would happen if we used our bases in say Turkey (if we have any bases still there) to kidnap Iranians from Iran. Wouldn't Iran then be justified in bombing Turkey and areas where our bases are? I think they would. Turkey would protest loudly about our behviour but could they really do anything about it? I think not. Sure they might try and boot us out, but at that point would it help? Probably not. My scenario would probably never happen because we Americans don't normally serve as an aggressor without any provocation, however the ideas and facts are not that far off from the Israeli/Lebanese situation. Israel has never been afraid to stand up for it's citizens or its armies. Because of that it has earned a measure of respect from it's enemies, although they try from time to time to test Israel, they usually find out that when you tease the viper, it will strike back, sometimes with deadly results...

[WalkingMan]

Hey all,

I don't know how many of you have also been keeping up on the current situation with Israel and the war their waging on the terrorists of Palestine (Gaza Strip), Lebanon, Syria, and even now their pointing at Iran.

What's everyones thoughts on this? This has done nothing but grow in seriousness since it started, and doesn't show signs of getting any better. As America, we've been known to support countries, but what are we going to do since we're in Iraq currently getting that in order?

This is all just a mess, just looking for some views and debate on this situation. I hope I'm not the only one keeping up with all this?

If you take a step back from this specific conflict, you will see that it is part of a much larger, global conflict, between those Muslims who practice Islam as it is described in the Koran, Hadith, and Sharia Law... and the rest of humanity, whom they refer to as 'Infidels', 'Kuffir', and a bunch of other nasty words.

The goal of Islam is amazingly simple to understand... to either convert, enslave, or kill, every last man woman and child on the face of the planet. That's it. Negotiating is not an option, because the Word of God is not subject to negotiation.

As far as the people who adhere to this Fundamental, Literal Interpretation of the Koran, are concerned, any Muslim who disagrees with them is worse than an Infidel, and deserves a fate even more painful and brutal than the fate dished up for Infidels.

These people are politely referred to as Islamofacists.

Israel is just a sinlge front in their war against the Infidel.

You might want to check out http://memri.org/ ...to see some translations into English, what Islam has to say about itself, in its own various languages.

You might also want to check out
http://www.centcom.mil/sites/uscentcom1/default.aspx ...and check out the 'What Extremists Are Saying' link, on the right hand side of the page, near the top.

One of the Enemy's strategies, is to keep Infidels thinking about their Global Jihad against Humanity in terms of 'individual conflicts', as opposed to seeing it for what it is... an attempt to convert, enslave, or kill, every last human being on the planet, who will not get with their Islamofacist Program.

[yellowwing]

Some of the sound bites are really funny if they weren't so serious:

But the growing list of civilian casualties could turn Arabs and others against the Jewish state and its key ally, the U.S., and still not fatally wound Hezbollah, said military analysts.
-As if the Arab world loved Israel!

Russia sharply criticized Israel over its offensive against Hizbullah on Thursday, saying its actions have gone "far beyond the boundaries of an anti-terrorist operation" and repeating calls for an immediate cease-fire.
-Hey Putin, how humane was 'yer Spetnaz boys in Chechnya?
:banana:

[JWG]

Thank you, Corporal Walking M.

I will check those links out, for sure.. and you're right, "Islamofascists" can not and should not be tried to be "talked with." We, as a country (the politicians mainly) need to get out of all this political bull-**** and start fighting the War on Terrorism should be faught.. FIRE WITH FIRE.

ELIMINATE the threat. Stop talking to it. I'm 100% behind Israel's actions so far. If anyone says Israel is not justified in their actions.. I want them to replace Israel with their country's name and tell me they wouldn't be doing the same exact thing. If they can't say that, then they need to find a bomb shelter, cause they're in for a awakening.


If you take a step back from this specific conflict, you will see that it is part of a much larger, global conflict, between those Muslims who practice Islam as it is described in the Koran, Hadith, and Sharia Law... and the rest of humanity, whom they refer to as 'Infidels', 'Kuffir', and a bunch of other nasty words.

The goal of Islam is amazingly simple to understand... to either convert, enslave, or kill, every last man woman and child on the face of the planet. That's it. Negotiating is not an option, because the Word of God is not subject to negotiation.

As far as the people who adhere to this Fundamental, Literal Interpretation of the Koran, are concerned, any Muslim who disagrees with them is worse than an Infidel, and deserves a fate even more painful and brutal than the fate dished up for Infidels.

These people are politely referred to as Islamofacists.

Israel is just a sinlge front in their war against the Infidel.

You might want to check out http://memri.org/ ...to see some translations into English, what Islam has to say about itself, in its own various languages.

You might also want to check out
http://www.centcom.mil/sites/uscentcom1/default.aspx ...and check out the 'What Extremists Are Saying' link, on the right hand side of the page, near the top.

One of the Enemy's strategies, is to keep Infidels thinking about their Global Jihad against Humanity in terms of 'individual conflicts', as opposed to seeing it for what it is... an attempt to convert, enslave, or kill, every last human being on the planet, who will not get with their Islamofacist Program.

[WalkingMan]

Some of the sound bites are really funny if they weren't so serious:

But the growing list of civilian casualties could turn Arabs and others against the Jewish state and its key ally, the U.S., and still not fatally wound Hezbollah, said military analysts.
-As if the Arab world loved Israel!

Russia sharply criticized Israel over its offensive against Hizbullah on Thursday, saying its actions have gone "far beyond the boundaries of an anti-terrorist operation" and repeating calls for an immediate cease-fire.
-Hey Putin, how humane was 'yer Spetnaz boys in Chechnya?
Every time I see a news commentary, warning us Infidels that if we are not careful, Muslims will hate us *even more*, I stop and consider that it is Islam's stated goal in the Koran, to either convert, enslave, or murder every non-Muslim on the face of the earth, and that I, proud Infidel that I am, have no intention of either converting to Islam, or living as a Dhimmi (the word Islam applies to enslaved non-Muslims), which leaves only one single, remaining option... for Islam to make me Dead, Dead, Dead, or for me to make Islam Dead, Dead, Dead... first.

Once Islam placed a death sentence on my head (and on anyone's/ everyone's heads), there isn't really much else Muslims can do, to 'hate us worse'... we all only get to die exactly once, last time I checked.

When I see Muslims on the news, complaining that the 'International Community'... by which they mean the non-Muslim International Community... is not running to the aid of Hezbollah, and Hamas, etc., I am amused by their naivete... haven't they yet figured out that with wars going on against the USA, Canada, every single nation in Europe, Israel, Russia, and every single former member of USSR along Russia's southern border, India, China, Australia, Japan, and every non-Muslim entity in Malaysia and Africa... there might just be a growing hatred for Muslims, and their arrogant, totally intolerant religion brewing among all Infidels?

It doesn't take long for Infidels to figure out, that once Islam is done exterminiating Israel, the rest of us are just further down on the same list of people, countries, cultures, and religions, to be exterminated.

The greatest enemies that Muslims have, are Islam itself, and the Koran, Hadith, and Sharia Law... and their belief that they are better than the rest of us, and that that God has granted them absolute permission to enslave or murder every member of the human race, who will not convert to their religion.

[teddyn]

Even if there is an interpretation of Islam under which it is all about killing those who don't submit, that doesn't mean that everyone follows that interpretation. Saying that Muslims as a whole have for primary objective to wipe 'infidels' out is wrong just as saying that all Christians make it their mission to follow certain aspects of the bible such as:
Woman with “familiar spirits” must be stoned to death. Leviticus 20:27
“Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live.” Exodus 22:18
Kill everyone who has religious views that are different than your own. Deuteronomy 17:2-7
You must kill those who worship another god. Exodus 22:20
Any city that doesn’t receive the followers of Jesus will be destroyed in a manner even more savage than that of Sodom and Gomorrah. Mark 6:11
Sure there are far more people putting radical Islam into practise then the fire and brimstone brand of Christianity, but it's dangerous to think we're at war with a religious entity out to get us. As much as we may wish the conflict in the Middle-East were black and white in the issues, it's not.

Israel responds to kidnapped soldiers by starting a massive bombing campaign resulting in the displacement of huge parts of the lebanese population (displaced and disrupted children... I doubt they will contribute much towards a stable democratic society, especially with the bitter memory of israeli bombing near or at their family homes. If you're wondering what I mean by proportionality, then think back to 1976 when Israeli commandos rescued 100 hostages from terrorists in Uganda. Do you really think it would have been proportional then to begin bombing ugandan cities to 'make a point'? :!:

This whole crisis began when 2 ISRAELI SOLDIERS WERE TAKEN HOSTAGE. What's going on?!

[PreciousEnvy]

We are eventually going to get involved in this.For Now I think were just sitting back & not doing anything right now because we have to get the Americans out there.After that we need to step into this ****.Where do I even begin?????? Well we will start with Hezbollah (I dont care if it's spelled wrong) & the leader.The same M*!?$* F*$^#@ that is responsible for the deaths of my devil dogs in Beruit ! Now some of the marines that survived the Beruit bombing are on the USS Nashville picking up the americans & getting them to Cyprus (I'm 1/2 white & 1/2 greek by the way & have had family stuck on that Island for many years but thats another story...)I would always have been on Isreals side no matter what.For one I dont care too much for anyone who wants to blow up the birthplace of Jesus.Also the muslims started all this.This will lead to WWIII & I wish that were not the case but it is & we will eventually get involved.They need to stop calling this a crisis & call it what it is A WAR ! & it is A HOLY WAR & has begun a long time ago all these different conflicts are wrapped into this that & the other.It's a HOLY WAR & it has been so for a while now ......I pray for you ,me & the ones we want to protect .It will be HELL & You have to go through HELL in order to get to HEAVEN.Semper Fidelis my loves.....

[WalkingMan]

Even if there is an interpretation of Islam under which it is all about killing those who don't submit, that doesn't mean that everyone follows that interpretation. Saying that Muslims as a whole have for primary objective to wipe 'infidels' out is wrong just as saying that all Christians make it their mission to follow certain aspects of the bible such as:
Woman with “familiar spirits” must be stoned to death. Leviticus 20:27
“Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live.” Exodus 22:18
Kill everyone who has religious views that are different than your own. Deuteronomy 17:2-7
You must kill those who worship another god. Exodus 22:20
Any city that doesn’t receive the followers of Jesus will be destroyed in a manner even more savage than that of Sodom and Gomorrah. Mark 6:11
Sure there are far more people putting radical Islam into practise then the fire and brimstone brand of Christianity, but it's dangerous to think we're at war with a religious entity out to get us. As much as we may wish the conflict in the Middle-East were black and white in the issues, it's not.

First, Islam is significantly different than Christianity, in that it absolutely forbids
independent thought, where matters of religious doctrine are concerned. The punishment for holding a religious opinion at odds with the Koran is death.

Second, regardless of what the Bible might say, there are at present, to the best of my knowledge, not any Christian movements, actively attempting to put into practice on a Global scale, and of the nastier passeges in the Bible.

Third, if these Muslims you allege exist in any significant numbers, who really, seriously, believe and practice a different interpretation of the Koran... then where are they, and why are we not hearing from them? Why are they not rounding up the bad actors, who are giving Islam such a bad name? One thing is for sure, or I do not understand human nature at all... if Islam forces the Infidels to clean up their garbage for them, then they will suffer mightily for not cleaning up their own mess, same as the 'good' Japanese and the 'good' Germans suffered, right along with the bad apples.

Such is the nature of war.

Fourth... I don't believe you are correct. I personally believe that the huge, enormous, resounding SILENCE on the part of the great majority of Muslims, where condemning, and capturing, and disposing of their 'bad apples', speaks volumes, and what is being saidby that silence, is that they actually support the forced conversion, or enslavement, or murder of all Infidels.

I'm just a single person so, so my opinion does not count for much. But if Muslims continue down the path they are currently on, I suspect that another 5 or 10 years, they will be so utterly hated and despised by the Infidels of the world, that the world will turn on them from every quarter, and their lives will not be worth a plugged nickel.


Israel responds to kidnapped soldiers by starting a massive bombing campaign resulting in the displacement of huge parts of the lebanese population (displaced and disrupted children... I doubt they will contribute much towards a stable democratic society, especially with the bitter memory of israeli bombing near or at their family homes. If you're wondering what I mean by proportionality, then think back to 1976 when Israeli commandos rescued 100 hostages from terrorists in Uganda. Do you really think it would have been proportional then to begin bombing ugandan cities to 'make a point'? :!:

This whole crisis began when 2 ISRAELI SOLDIERS WERE TAKEN HOSTAGE. What's going on?!

Look to Iran, where the leader of the country has stated repeatedly and publicly that it is his goal to totally wipe Israel from the face of the earth, and is pursuing nuclear weapons, in order to do just that. Look to the rest of Islam, where his statements were met with widespread applause.

If I were Israel, I would have behaved far more ruthlessly than Israel has behaved. I would have behaved as Muslims behave. Israel warned most of the targets in Lebanon, in advance of destroying them, to give the civilians a chance to escape.

When was the last time the Muslims warned Israel before an attack, to give the civilians a chance to leave, before the bombs went off?

[Brooklyn]

I am not going to get into a political discussion about this any more than I already have. Simply put, there are people on this thread that think they know much more than they actually do, and try to twist the argument to match with what they want to believe. I see no point in continuing to debate a subject when no minds will be changed. I know for a fact I'm correct- if someone disagrees I will allow them to do so.

That said, let's remember that this group, that some are painting as the victim, is a long time enemy of the US and the Marine Corps. Hezbollah killed 241 Marines in a suicide attack. If that isn't enough for you to believe that they should be eliminated by any force necessary, I don't know what you're doing on this site. The same ship, with the same unit, is standing by to once again deliver Marines into Lebanon as a result of the actions of Hezbollah. Don't let the history escape. We owe these people some pay back, and I am thrilled that Israel is doing it for us.

I know I've said alot in this thread so it's pretty easy to overlook and/or misunderstand some things, but I've never said that Hezbollah shouldn't be eliminated. I said Israel shouldn't be attacking LEBANON'S GVT. not Hezbollah.



In all market environments, if you make the rules you'll always be on top. On other levels its called Leadership and Initiative. Don't let your adversary dictate what you are going to do.


I'm not understanding what you mean here. I have no qualms with us being a hedgemony. Or, or you disagreeing with us being that? Either or, as I've said, Darwinism rules all.



Again.. I'm ready to have that rifle in my hands and that helmet on my head.. are you?<!-- / message --><!-- sig -->


Enough. Spare me this crap with you? Am I willing to defend my country? I swore an oath of allegiance to the U.S. today, that I would obey the President and protect my country. Not agreeing with Israel attacking Lebanon's gvt. doesn't make me a damn coward or traitor...or whatever you're trying to get at with that ".. are you?"

FYI, nothing in that oath said I must agree with everything the U.S.'s friends do.

[yellowwing]

I was just going over the definition of hedgemony, I had to look it up, and then what it meant to me from then on. Good word.

FYI, nothing in that oath said I must agree with everything the U.S.'s friends do.
Actually that might be a problem if you pull a tour on Peacekeeping Duty. There were a few army guys that protested and refused orders to serve with the United Nations. Their reasoning was they swore oath the the US not the UN. The courts determined that it was a lawful order and they were **** out of luck!

[WalkingMan]

I know I've said alot in this thread so it's pretty easy to overlook and/or misunderstand some things, but I've never said that Hezbollah shouldn't be eliminated. I said Israel shouldn't be attacking LEBANON'S GVT. not Hezbollah.


Hezbollah is an official part of the Lebanese government, holding 14 seats in the Lebanese Parliament:

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/07/13/hezbollah/index.html

Therefore, it is impossible to attack Hezbollah without also attacking Lebanon.

Also, assuming that the people who have been citing this often-reported statement are correct:

"A previous UN Security Council action, Resolution 1599, requires Lebanon to disarm Hezbollah and deploy the Lebanese army along the country's border with Israel to prevent Hezbollah's incursions and rocket attacks."

http://www.newsday.com/news/opinion/ny-sundayedit4818398jul16,0,3857575.story?coll=ny-editorials-headlines

...Lebanon, instead of complying with the Resolution, invited Hezbollah into their government... not exactly the actions one would expect to sit well with Israel, or to paint a convincing picture of Lebanon as a peaceful neighbour.

It seems that Lebanon was perfectly content to permit Hezbollah to be a functioning part of their country, and government, and to lob missiles into Israel, and conduct kidnapping raids into Israel, and to do just about anything they damn well pleased to Israel, right up until the moment that Israel requires that Lebanon did a little bleeding of its own.

If Lebanon saw fit to vote for, and elect members of Hezbollah to its Parliament, and to permit Hezbollah to maintain a standing army along its border with Israel, and to actively conduct operations against Israel, then it seem reasonable that Lebanon should bleed with Hezbollah.

[yellowwing]

Hezbollah is an official part of the Lebanese government, holding 14 seats in the Lebanese Parliament
And that is the HUGE difference!

[teddyn]

Scared Lebanese shift anger to Israel

Fri Jul 21, 2006 2:05 PM BSThttp://i.today.reuters.co.uk/images/spacer.gif
<input value="13" name="CurrentSize" id="CurrentSize" type="hidden"> [- (javascript:sizeDown();)] Text (javascript:resetCurrentsize();) [+ (javascript:sizeUp();)]
By Alaa Shahine
BEIRUT (Reuters) - The video on Hizbollah's al-Manar television shows an armed fighter standing near the border with Israel with a voice in the background urging all Lebanese to stand united behind the guerrilla group.
Razan Sheheim says she will heed such a call only until Israel's war on Lebanon in retaliation to Hizbollah attacks ends. Then, she says, the Shi'ite Muslim group should disarm.
"Israel has to stop its crimes and destruction, and then we will reach a solution about Hizbollah's weapons," said Sheheim, a Sunni Muslim who works at a mobile phone shop in a Christian district of Beirut. "I just hope we will be still alive then."

Ten days into Israel's offensive, many Sunni, Druze and Lebanese Christians, while still blaming the guerrilla group for triggering the conflict by capturing two Israeli soldiers, have shifted their anger at Israel for its devastating retaliation.
"I hate Hizbollah, but If Israel thinks it can screw us, we will screw it," said Paul Chahine, sitting at a bar in Gemayze, a Christian part of Beirut. "Then, we will screw Hizbollah."
The Israeli bombardment has so far killed 343 people, displaced 500,000 civilians and hit ports, bridges and roads across the country, shattering the country's infrastructure.
The scale of the attacks brought back memories of 1982 when Israeli troops invaded Lebanon and entered Beirut. They later retreated to the south, forming a security strip before their withdrawal in 2000 under Hizbollah fire.
"What happened has reminded the Lebanese of previous Israeli massacres and the invasion, and put the differences with Hizbollah on the side for now," said Oasama Safa, head of the Lebanese Centre for Policy Studies, a think tank. Continued...



Just thought this was interesting... In a way, Lebanon has a deadly growth on it which it is trying to manage. The Lebanese government is not currently strong enough to get rid of it (sort of like the Irish government not initially being able to get rid of the IRA... the british government did not respond by bombing Dublin, however). That is why Hezbollah is able to exist in South Lebanon. By waging war in a way that suggests Israel is at war with the whole nation, it is understandable that the country rallies in self defence, but it is not a good thing. Israel is driving a stake through the person with the growth, rather then carefully helping in its removal.



Imagine this scenario (bear in mind that I'm not saying this is likely to happen):

a right wing militia group exists in the USA near the Mexican border. It is a group of people like Timothy McVeigh; people who have no trouble taking the law into their own hands. They hate Mexicans with a passion. They decide to go over the border and they capture and kill some Mexican soldiers/border guards.



Now, I know that our government would normally apprehend these people immediately and apologize to the Mexican government. But imagine that this group was powerful enough that our government couldn't easily apprehend them without causing a guerrilla-type civil war. Before we have a chance to react, however, in response to the captured guards, Mexico starts using aggressive rhetoric; they fly jets over Washington D.C. to show their power (this is a different Mexico from the one we know ;) ) and try to scare us. Then they start dropping thousands of bombs on our cities near the border. Hundreds of our civilians are getting killed and we have refugees fleeing all across the country. Even Washington D.C. (beirut) gets bombed. Huge amounts of infrastructure gets wiped out, with power cuts all across the country. All the foreign tourists in the country are draining out. Then Mexico starts preparing a land invasion which would involve capturing chunks of the country. But now, this militia group is developping support from families in the south near the border because these families don't like feeling helpless to all these Mexican bombs, even though they do not support the aims and ideology of the group itself.

Add to all this a past in which America was once completely invaded by Mexico and Washington D.C. was seiged in the name of their security. Would America take that kind of crap from Mexico?
Would we not be convinced Mexico was 'evil' and actually mainly interested in occupying/subjugating us?




Even though the US militia group initially and unlawfully captured Mexicans, we would start getting angry and begin defending ourselves if Mexico took on such a bullying stance.



I know this is a long post, lol, but so many of the 'if it were us' analogies put us into the Israeli position; we never think about what if we were like the government in Lebanon with powerful Mexicans to the south and semi-autonomous militia groups having a big sway in souther states (mainly because of the instability our country has experienced over the past years)




Let me clarify something though: I do NOT think Hezbollah is a good thing. They are despicable. Everything they stand for reeks of a mixture between fascism and arrogant religious zealotism. I would say that the Hezbollah fighters that get killed in battle deserve it 100%. After all, the group even has Marine Corps blood on their hands (1983 Beirut bombing). But think of us in that scenario where we are loyal to the legitimate U.S. Government and to the Constitution and Mexico goes all-out on us.

[teddyn]

By the way, that US militia group may have gained some representation in government; after all they could not exist without at least some people backing them. There is always someone to drink the kool-aid ;)

[WalkingMan]

Imagine this scenario... -snip-

Look... if you want to 'imagine scenarios', maybe you are on the wrong website.

This is the Marine Corps... not the Diplomatic Corps.

This business is for real, not some made-up, goofy circle-jerk.

Like a lot of Marines, I have friends/acquaintances in the IDF who are under fire as I type this.

If you have the intestinal fortitude and other attributes necessary to qualify for service as a Marine, there is a high probablilty that you will eventually come face to face with Hezbollah, or Hamas, or someone cut from the same cloth, on the field of battle, at which time, you can try reasoning with them, or presenting them with some 'hypothetical scenario' and see what happens.

If you do not meet them in combat, as a Marine, there is still a good possibility that either you, or someone you know and care about, will eventually meet these people, or someone very much like them, on the streets of a city, or on a train or airplane, or in a high-rise, in the USA, because there are already plenty of Hezbollah and Hamas, living in places like Dearborn Michigan, whose goal it is to bring their sick dream for the future of humanity to all Infidels, wherever they live.

You didn't think Jews, were the only people on the Hezbollah hit list... did you?

[teddyn]

I don't see what's wrong with me deciding where I stand by thinking of how I would feel if the US were in a similar situation. I've heard plenty of people saying that if the US were in a situation similar to Israel's, they would expect our military to move in. I was just trying to point out that if the US were in a situation similar to Lebanon's I would feel angry with Israel, even if I disliked the group within my country that had wrongly started the fighting. Did you read what I wrote? I'm sorry if it was too long :/ but in a debate about the rights and wrongs of the conflict, it's not irrelevent; it's just helpful to understand how people feel if you put yourself into their situation.
Obviously if we had some sort of declaration of war and an objective in the area, it wouldn't help to think about the way the Lebanese people (seperately of Hezbollah) are dealing with the issue. But at the moment, when the United States is remaining fairly neutral, the war-time rhetoric of
Hezbollah, or Hamas, or someone cut from the same cloth, on the field of battle, at which time, you can try reasoning with them, or presenting them with some 'hypothetical scenario' and see what happens. doesn't seem too relevant.
Although most of the world is anti-Hezbollah, my argument doesn't run along the lines of 'I think that Hezbollah is right'. I am questioning the METHODS being used by Israel. I do not question that Hezbollah is a bad thing. But just imagining if the US were in Lebanon's shoes, we wouldn't take kindly to having our country flattened.

[WalkingMan]

I am questioning the METHODS being used by Israel. I do not question that Hezbollah is a bad thing. But just imagining if the US were in Lebanon's shoes, we wouldn't take kindly to having our country flattened.

When Lebanon permitted Hezbollah to officially become a part of the Lebanese Government, instead of honouring the promise they made with UN Security Council action, Resolution 1599, they brought the house down on themselves, and therefore deserve any fate that hits them.

Israel honoured their committment to UN Security Council action, Resolution 1599, while Hezbollah... with Lebanon's permission... and in fact as an active part of the Lebanese government, continually breached Resolution 1599, attacking Israel, Killing Israelis, and amassing a huge stockpile of weaponry on Israel's border, in preparation for Hezbolla's, Lebanon's, Iran's, and in fact, all of Islam's long awaited 'Final Solution' for Israel... the murder of every Jew living in Israel.

Lebanon deserves worse than what it is getting from Israel... far worse. Lebanon deserves what it was happy to see Israel receive, at the hands of Hezbollah, and what Lebanon assisted Hezbollah in attempting to deliver to Israel... complete and total annihilation, of every Muslim living in the country, and the seizure of the entire country.

I seriously doubt that this is Israel's final goal for Lebanon. At present, it is certainly not Israel's stated goal, while Hezbolla's officially stated goal has always been, and remains, the total destruction of Israel.

[tkmac58]

I don't see what's wrong with me deciding where I stand by thinking of how I would feel if the US were in a similar situation. I've heard plenty of people saying that if the US were in a situation similar to Israel's, they would expect our military to move in. I was just trying to point out that if the US were in a situation similar to Lebanon's I would feel angry with Israel, even if I disliked the group within my country that had wrongly started the fighting. Did you read what I wrote? I'm sorry if it was too long :/ but in a debate about the rights and wrongs of the conflict, it's not irrelevent; it's just helpful to understand how people feel if you put yourself into their situation.
Obviously if we had some sort of declaration of war and an objective in the area, it wouldn't help to think about the way the Lebanese people (seperately of Hezbollah) are dealing with the issue. But at the moment, when the United States is remaining fairly neutral, the war-time rhetoric of doesn't seem too relevant.
Although most of the world is anti-Hezbollah, my argument doesn't run along the lines of 'I think that Hezbollah is right'. I am questioning the METHODS being used by Israel. I do not question that Hezbollah is a bad thing. But just imagining if the US were in Lebanon's shoes, we wouldn't take kindly to having our country flattened.
What's the matter with you son, why do you try to rationalize with yourself and use all these what ifs, I dont understand what your saying. Hell yes America would fight back. But here is what I am hearing, you are coming down on the IDFs methods on what there doing to the Lebanese people. Do you honestly think there innocent, do you think that mighty Hezbollah has scared them and they couldnt have done anything to prevent this or at least try in the past few years. Its the same old ****ing story, the poor Lebs caught in the crossfire, just like 1983 when this **** cost us 240 plus brothers. They are sympathetic to the Hez cause and every body knows it, if not where is the help.... And if you listen to these Americans who are being evacuated this week you would think that the Hez are rightous people and the IDF are evil. I say leave them there if they feel this way and if not let them pay there own way back.

TKMAC58

[teddyn]

Well... I guess it's a valid point that if the Lebanese people and their government back what Hezbollah are doing, and then the Lebanese army join in the fray, Israel's fighting gains a great deal of legitimacy.
:D

The issue is just really complicated though... I wish we were still in a time where governments waged wars rather then these shadowy subnational organizations like Hezbollah or Al-Quaeda. At least then there is an enemy that you can force to surrender and reason. I don't know how Israel can possibly 'defeat' Hezbollah though; if the Lebanese army defends their territory, they will surely be able to drive them away, but even if they get the government to give in, Hezbollah will still be there. They can't exactly negotiate a surrender with them since that would be ackowledging that they have a mandate to represent the Lebanese people.

[JWG]

Your damn right that Israel's fighting DOES gain a GREAT DEAL of legitimacy..

1.) Because they're DEFENDING THEMSELVES

..AND..

2.) The Lebanese people do back Hezbollah.. because they HOLD CHAIRS in the Lebanese GOVERNMENT.

--

I hear ya on your second paragraph.. that it is a very annoying thing when militias and militant sub-groups.. etc wage war instead of actual countries or governments..

But you see, the thing is.. when I see Hezbollah.. I see Iran and Syria. They are the backbone.. and the support/suppliers that allow Hezbollah to be so succesful and powerul.

We are waging a war on a country.. two in fact.. MAYBE MORE. Iran and Syria.

Have we forgotten where all the WMD's from Iraq went? Syria. - Scary, I know..


Report: Syria gave WMD'S to Hezbollah to Strike Israel


*Paraphrase* If Israel sends troops into Lebanon, we have a suprise in store for them.


Well... I guess it's a valid point that if the Lebanese people and their government back what Hezbollah are doing, and then the Lebanese army join in the fray, Israel's fighting gains a great deal of legitimacy.
:D

The issue is just really complicated though... I wish we were still in a time where governments waged wars rather then these shadowy subnational organizations like Hezbollah or Al-Quaeda. At least then there is an enemy that you can force to surrender and reason. I don't know how Israel can possibly 'defeat' Hezbollah though; if the Lebanese army defends their territory, they will surely be able to drive them away, but even if they get the government to give in, Hezbollah will still be there. They can't exactly negotiate a surrender with them since that would be ackowledging that they have a mandate to represent the Lebanese people.

[Brooklyn]

Something you all are forgetting about those 14 members in the Lebanese gvt...

They were voted there by the people. Lebanon is not just a Republic, it's a Democratic Republic. So, to the people who say that's justification for attacking Lebanon's gvt., does it also mean Israel's actions would be justified if they were to start carpet bombing cities in Lebanon to take out those voters?

Something else to remember, we've had Socialist/Communist in our very own gvt., even though Communism was our enemy. 14 people do not represent a nation and they certainly don't represent a majority in Lebanon's gvt., just as those Communists weren't a majority of ours.

[WalkingMan]

Well... I guess it's a valid point that if the Lebanese people and their government back what Hezbollah are doing, and then the Lebanese army join in the fray, Israel's fighting gains a great deal of legitimacy.
:D

The issue is just really complicated though... I wish we were still in a time where governments waged wars rather then these shadowy subnational organizations like Hezbollah or Al-Quaeda. At least then there is an enemy that you can force to surrender and reason. I don't know how Israel can possibly 'defeat' Hezbollah though; if the Lebanese army defends their territory, they will surely be able to drive them away, but even if they get the government to give in, Hezbollah will still be there. They can't exactly negotiate a surrender with them since that would be ackowledging that they have a mandate to represent the Lebanese people.

They are not 'sub-national organisations', they are Islam. While they choose to have different names, they are all part of the same monster, and they all have the same general goal... the establishment of the Global Islamic Caliphate... which will, if they succeed in their goal, usher in the extinction of all non-Muslims on planet Earth... genocide on the grandest possible scale.

[JWG]

I don't know when Israel started attacking the Lebanese Government.

I know they're combating the terrorist group of Hezbollah.. who USES to THEIR ADVANTAGE the civilians and civilian infrastructure as a 'base' to that when they are attacked, the media and others SEE it as Israel attacking the civilian infrastructure to kill civilians and not the TRUTH.. that they're KILLING HEZBOLLAH.

Yes, they are fighting in the country of Lebanon. But don't blame Israel for that.. blame Hezbollah for using their terrorist tactics, and using the cover of a country and it's people to hold a base and camp.

It seems the terrorist tactics of using civilian casualties that THEY PURPOSELY want to happen to make people not support Israel.. have worked on you, Brooklyn.

Now.. listen to this.. I don't want you to miss this part..

The U.N told Lebanon to DISARM Hezbollah. Did they? NO. Guess who is suffering from that rather BAD DECISION to not heed the "advice?"


Something you all are forgetting about those 14 members in the Lebanese gvt...

They were voted there by the people. Lebanon is not just a Republic, it's a Democratic Republic. So, to the people who say that's justification for attacking Lebanon's gvt., does it also mean Israel's actions would be justified if they were to start carpet bombing cities in Lebanon to take out those voters?

Something else to remember, we've had Socialist/Communist in our very own gvt., even though Communism was our enemy. 14 people do not represent a nation and they certainly don't represent a majority in Lebanon's gvt., just as those Communists weren't a majority of ours.

[teddyn]

They are not 'sub-national organisations', they are Islam. While they choose to have different names, they are all part of the same monster, and they all have the same general goal... the establishment of the Global Islamic Caliphate... which will, if they succeed in their goal, usher in the extinction of all non-Muslims on planet Earth... genocide on the grandest possible scale.

If that really is the case, what are you suggesting needs to be done? A pre-emptive genocide of islam?

And if that is their sole intent, why does the world's only Muslim theocracy, Iran, allow the 'Infidels' in their country (zoroastrians, christians and jews) to live in peace? They even allow them representatives in their government!

Furthermore, you say that they form a united front with the same goal, but they are divided within their religion between Shia's, Sunni's, etc. etc.! Often, they are more willing to kill each other then purge 'infidels' as you are so confident that their aim is. Look at Iraq! Despite the large presence of 'Infidel' troops, they still insist on bombing each others' mosques.

Education and prosperity reduces religious extremism in the long term, not military action. That was the proven cure for Christian extremism; Catholic-Protestant antagonisms in Ireland, for example, have seen a large drop in frequency since the late 20th Century as Ireland joined the European Economic community and saw their economic growth skyrocket.

[JWG]

"A pre-emptive genocide of islam?" -TeddyN

No.. can you say... self-defense? I don't know about you.. but if a religion, organization, club, political party, country.. whatever the hell it may be wants ME dead.. I'm not about to stop and think of the odds.. I'm going to DEFEND myself.

I will do what I need to do in order to survive. If someone wants you dead, and Islamofacists do want you dead (if you're not Islamic).. are you not going to kill them before they kill you? I'd hope so... :evilgrin:


If you don't feel the need to fight a THREAT.. then don't pick up a rifle. Myself, others like me, and Marines.. and other Military services will DO THAT FOR YOU. Like the many centuries and wars America has survived through.

"Iran, allow the 'Infidels' in their country (zoroastrians, christians and jews) to live in peace? They even allow them representatives in their government!" -TeddyN

Of course not.. they don't want to be KNOWN. Think about it.. if they slayed Christians, Jews, etc.. openly.. then there'd be U.S Marines and Military already over there.. leveling the place.

Iran don't want people to know their plans.. hell.. we're just discovering their involvement now..


If that really is the case, what are you suggesting needs to be done? A pre-emptive genocide of islam?

And if that is their sole intent, why does the world's only Muslim theocracy, Iran, allow the 'Infidels' in their country (zoroastrians, christians and jews) to live in peace? They even allow them representatives in their government!

Furthermore, you say that they form a united front with the same goal, but they are divided within their religion between Shia's, Sunni's, etc. etc.! Often, they are more willing to kill each other then purge 'infidels' as you are so confident that their aim is. Look at Iraq! Despite the large presence of 'Infidel' troops, they still insist on bombing each others' mosques.

Education and prosperity reduces religious extremism in the long term, not military action. That was the proven cure for Christian extremism; Catholic-Protestant antagonisms in Ireland, for example, have seen a large drop in frequency since the late 20th Century as Ireland joined the European Economic community and saw their economic growth skyrocket.

[tkmac58]

Something you all are forgetting about those 14 members in the Lebanese gvt...

They were voted there by the people. Lebanon is not just a Republic, it's a Democratic Republic. So, to the people who say that's justification for attacking Lebanon's gvt., does it also mean Israel's actions would be justified if they were to start carpet bombing cities in Lebanon to take out those voters?

Something else to remember, we've had Socialist/Communist in our very own gvt., even though Communism was our enemy. 14 people do not represent a nation and they certainly don't represent a majority in Lebanon's gvt., just as those Communists weren't a majority of ours.
Not you again? I think your giving these people to much credit, do you really believe that the average person gives two-****s about whether Hezbollah wages war or fight against Israel, you keep saying that the Lebanese people dont want this BS, SHOW ME, and dont show me news stories. Where in the hell are you getting your info, MSNBC, CNN, wtf... Dude.

TKMAC58

[WalkingMan]

If that really is the case, what are you suggesting needs to be done? A pre-emptive genocide of islam?

Possibly.



And if that is their sole intent, why does the world's only Muslim theocracy, Iran, allow the 'Infidels' in their country (zoroastrians, christians and jews) to live in peace? They even allow them representatives in their government!

Your information appears to be incomplete to such an extent, that it is incorrect, and misleading.

http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/irf/2005/51599.htm
http://www.christiansofiraq.com/Iranbadgesmay206.html



Furthermore, you say that they form a united front with the same goal, but they are divided within their religion between Shia's, Sunni's, etc. etc.! Often, they are more willing to kill each other then purge 'infidels' as you are so confident that their aim is. Look at Iraq! Despite the large presence of 'Infidel' troops, they still insist on bombing each others' mosques.

I said the same 'general goal', and regardless of infignting, my comment was spot on accurate. The goal of Islam, and therefore the goal of all non-Apostate Muslims, must be the establishment of the Global Caliphate.

Any Muslim who tells you otherwise, is a deliberate liar.



Education and prosperity reduces religious extremism in the long term, not military action. That was the proven cure for Christian extremism; Catholic-Protestant antagonisms in Ireland, for example, have seen a large drop in frequency since the late 20th Century as Ireland joined the European Economic community and saw their economic growth skyrocket.

Islam is peculiar among all religions, in that independent though in matters of religious doctrine, is punishable by death.

If what you say holds any water, then where is the proof? The great majority of leaders among the Islamic terrorists, are highly educated, and came from upper-middle class families.

http://www.tnr.com/doc.mhtml?i=20020624&s=krueger062402

[Brooklyn]

I don't know when Israel started attacking the Lebanese Government.



I believe it was the first or second day of the war when the reports started coming in about Israel attacking Lebanon's gvt. buildings.

Now you know when.

[WalkingMan]

I believe it was the first or second day of the war when the reports started coming in about Israel attacking Lebanon's gvt. buildings.

Now you know when.

URL???

I did a quick Google, and all that popped up, was the bombing of the offices and home of the Hezbollah leadership.

[WannabeDevildog]

Here's my two cents on the whole ordeal.

1) It's not our beef.
2) Israel has every right to defend itself. This whole thing started when the Hez captured two Israeli soldiers. We'd probably do the same thing.
3) If the Lebanese people didn't want the Hez in their country, they would have taken care of 'em back in the 80's when they surfaced. The truth is most terrorist organizations do what they can to blend in to the population and gain the support of the local community. (read the book "Dying to Win: The Strategic Logic of Suicide Terrorism")
4) Remember back in '83 when 240+ fine young Marines were killed by theses pukes? Well, paybacks a b****! (Thanks Israel)

[teddyn]

IN IRAN'S STREETS, AID TO HEZBOLLAH STIRS RESENTMENT
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/23/world/middleeast/23iran.html?ex=1311307200&en=2e30f86077c449df&ei=5088&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss

At least the people of Iran have some sense, even if their government is headed by lunatics at the moment. Apparently most Iranians are quite pro-american, and they have a fairly pluralist society, which fosters great hope because they have a very young population (nearly half of them are below the age of 15) which could very well grow up to be a reforming generation much in the same way as the 'baby boomer' generation here in the US.
Whenever I see reports about what the Iranian population thinks rather then their government, I often feel hope for Iran's future. I think their government is sitting on a timebomb of public opinion.

Here's another interesting article: U.S. Plan Seeks to Wedge Syria from Iran
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/23/washington/23diplo.html?ex=1311307200&en=304b0c50e54ed9cc&ei=5088&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss

Personally, despite the fact that I'm not quite as sympathetic to Israel as i gauge most of you are, I think the U.S. government has been doing a pretty smart job on this foreign policy issue. Knock on wood though, because considering the volatility of the situation it could turn pear-shaped at any moment.

[WalkingMan]

IN IRAN'S STREETS, AID TO HEZBOLLAH STIRS RESENTMENT
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/23/world/middleeast/23iran.html?ex=1311307200&en=2e30f86077c449df&ei=5088&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss

At least the people of Iran have some sense, even if their government is headed by lunatics at the moment. Apparently most Iranians are quite pro-american, and they have a fairly pluralist society, which fosters great hope because they have a very young population (nearly half of them are below the age of 15) which could very well grow up to be a reforming generation much in the same way as the 'baby boomer' generation here in the US.
Whenever I see reports about what the Iranian population thinks rather then their government, I often feel hope for Iran's future. I think their government is sitting on a timebomb of public opinion.

Here's another interesting article: U.S. Plan Seeks to Wedge Syria from Iran
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/23/washington/23diplo.html?ex=1311307200&en=304b0c50e54ed9cc&ei=5088&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss

Personally, despite the fact that I'm not quite as sympathetic to Israel as i gauge most of you are, I think the U.S. government has been doing a pretty smart job on this foreign policy issue. Knock on wood though, because considering the volatility of the situation it could turn pear-shaped at any moment.

Here's another interesting link... the English version of the Hezbollah website:

http://manartv.com/NewsSite/News.aspx?language=en

...which, interestingly enough, is (at the moment) being hosted in Hoboken New Jersey, USA.

This information, compliments of
http://internet-haganah.com/harchives/005679.html

The best way to get to know your enemy, is by studying him.

One of the interesting aspects of studying Islamic websites, is that, thanks to the translations services being provided by people like memri.org http://memri.org/ one can often discover that the English and Arabic/Farsi/etc. versions of the same websites, do not say the same things at all... the English version being specially constructed propoganda pages, with the Arabic/etc. pages saying things a little more honestly, in a manner that they do not want the rest of the world to see.

Learning to read, write, speak and understand the languages used by Islam is a good way to serve your country, in my opinion.

Also, studying the Koran, Hadiths and Sharia Law is also a very good way to acquaint one's-self with the true nature of Islam, and it's intentions, where the rest of humanity is concerned.

This kind of knowledge, once it becomes common among all Infidels, will be Islam's undoing, more than any other weapon.

Contrast this attitude with the attidude that Islam supports, where all other religions are concerned.

Compare the number of mosques in the USA, with the number of Christian churches, or Jewish synagogues in Saudi Arabia.

Don't go for the easy answers, or the politically correct answers, or the answers that make you feel good, or that you find to be emotionally satisfying.

Ask yourself how it can be, that Islam is engaged in so many wars, simultaneously, in so many different parts of the world, many of which, like Darfur, Russia, Thailand, Bangaladesh, India, etc., have little or nothing to do with Jews, or the West.

Read what Islam says about itself. Read what Islamic clerics say about Islam, and it's goals. Study Islam with a magnifying glass.

I've been a serious student of Islam since September 12th, 2001.

Know your Enemy. Study Islam.

The Truth shall set you (and your children, and their children) free.

"Tolerance is a crime, when it is applied to evil". -Thomas Mann

[Echo_Four_Bravo]

OK, I quit reading this thread for a while, and I see that it is still full of people that don't know what in the hell they're talking about making asinine comments. So, I guess I have to start posting again.

First, the nation of Lebanon, and its government, are responsible for the actions of Lebanon. If you allow a group to function in your nation, you are responsible for what they do. This is even moreso the case when there are UN resolutions demanding that all militia groups be disarmed. You can't simply allow them to control a portion of your nation and think that is OK. When Lebanon further stated that they would meet Israeli incursions into their nation with force, they made themselves targets. You cannot expect to make a threat against a nation that is defending itself and not be hit.

Think about it. If there was a group in Canada that wanted to take control of the US, and they began lobbing missiles into Boston, do you really think we would just let it happen? Of course not! The US would attack Canada AND the group that was attacking us. We wouldn't be so nice about it, we would over throw the Canadian government and set up a situation where the problem would not happen again.

The comment that Lebanon is not just a Republic but a democratic republic makes no sense. You cannot have an actual republic without having free elections, and a republic and a democracy are not the same thing. We are a republic, more "democracies" in the world are republics. To have an actual democracy you would have to have elections to decide every issue. Regardless, the nation of Lebanon allows Hezbollah to hold governmental seats and to act as a terrorist group. Until they stop it, they will be targets.

Finally, most people in Lebanon don't blame Israel for the situation, they blame Hezbollah. Only the radical idiots support Hezbollah, and we'll all be better off if we just ignore what those people think.

[JWG]

Amen, EFB.

[WalkingMan]

And if that is their sole intent, why does the world's only Muslim theocracy, Iran, allow the 'Infidels' in their country (zoroastrians, christians and jews) to live in peace? They even allow them representatives in their government!

Here is an example of how Jews are presently treated in Iran:

From the Turkish Daily News...

http://www.turkishdailynews.com.tr/article.php?enewsid=49697

Last paragraph in the article...

"In Tehran, the government has sanctioned billboards showing Hezbollah leader Sheik Hassan Nasrallah and a message that it is the duty of Muslims to "wipe out" Israel. Officials also organized a demonstration in the southern city of Shiraz by Iran's small Jewish community calling for Israel's destruction and praising Hezbollah."

I may be letting my imagination run away with me... but I have a sneaking suspicion that this demonstration... Iranian Jews calling for the destruction of Israel, and praising Hezbollah... was coerced.

[unicornsrme]

I applaud Israel for their response to the kidnapping and murder of two of their soldiers! I wish our own government had responded with an onslaught of bombing in Iraq when two of our own soldier's were kidnapped several weeks ago then perhaps whoever was harboring them would have returned them alive rather than tortured and mutilated!

Israel must defend itself!

Wasn't it our own president, George W. who said " Whoever HARBORS terrorists ARE terrorists!"? So the Lebonese have been harboring hezzbollah so long that they've been able to acquire enough arms and ammunition to have rained down a total of more than 2,000 bombs on the tiny nation of Israel in a mere two weeks! That is sickening!

The Israeli's have said repeatedly that all they want is their soldiers returned safely to them and that is not by any means an unreasonable request!

I say God Bless Israel, it's government, it's soldiers and it's civillians!