Marines vs. Army, the sequel

[Lorix]

Since the other post got off topic, let's try this again.... Refresh: Army boot camp is getting a lot easier, as the Marines is staying the same. This easiness will reflect on the actions and standards "soldiers" live up to. One of the main differences is lack of discipline, which Marines tend to focus on in recruit training. How will this new "barbe boot camp" affect the next generation of army soldiers compared to how they are now?

[Camper51]

The army has soldiers????????????????

[Lorix]

That's what they claim to be, yes.... LOL

[Marine84]

From what all I've read on other threads - the Corps is getting a little soft too.

[Lorix]

Since the ribbon creek incident back in 1954 when a drunk DI took his platoon for a swim in the middle of the night and 6 recruits drowned, the Corps has been limiting the power of the DI's ever since. There's a long list of what the Drill Instructors can and can't do to a recruit, like denying a meal, a DI has to give a recruit 3 meals a day (exception is the Crucible), and I think it's 15 minutes to eat. There's a lot of limitations these days, but at least we are nowhere near allowing cell phones and having stress cards like the Army.

[Marine84]

what the hell is a stress card?

[rproctor922]

I never had a stress card or a cellphone all the way through AIT. And that was only 4 years ago

[Marine84]

what's a stress card?

[Lorix]

Anytime during boot, if the recruit gets nervous, say the (guess it would be) drill sergeant is yelling at the recruit, the recruit can pull out the stress card and the drill sergeant has to leave him/her alone.

[Phantom Blooper]

This has been posted on this site before and here is the scoop.....


Claim: Recruits in basic training are issued "stress cards," which when waved at demanding drill sergeants immediately entitle recruits to gentler treatment.
Status: False.

Examples:


[Collected on the Internet, 2002]
I have heard that during Clinton years, the Army issued new basic training recruits "Stress Cards" at select training bases as part of a test program. If the Drill Sergeant yelled too loudly or instructed the recruit to do anything that might cause them undue stress, the Private could simply hand the card to the Sergeant and they were to cease the offensive behavior.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Collected on the Internet, 2000]

I read about them but they weren't using them when I was in. If I remember correctly, it was a little yellow card that they gave you. Apparently if things were getting tough for you in basic, you could flash the card and the DI would back off and give you a "break" so you could compose yourself. The standing joke was that the color of the card spoke for itself... The idea, if I remember right, was heavily criticized (and rightfully so, what are you going to do in real life when the bullets start to fly, pull out the stress card and hope the bad guys stop shooting at you?) and the idea was eventually canned.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Collected on the Internet, 1999]

[The stress card is] a card these kids get when they go through basic training. when they are feeling overwhelmed or stressed out, they are to give it to their DI's (or whatever the call em now days) for a 'time out'.

my friend john, who was a 10 year enlisted veteran in the combat engineers who had done some 'hard time' in somalia (you remember the infamous fire fight over there involving the rangers) told me a story about a brand spanking new PFC who, during a field exercise, came up to john with this 'card' and said, "sgt, i need some time out. my stress card says im entitled to some time out." john, bless him, grabbed the stress card, tore it to bits and informed the kid, "stress card? you're in the REAL army now, kid. this is what i think of your &*^% stress card." Rip! Rip! Rip!




Origins: This
is one of those tales that has the smallest kernel of truth to it, but that truth is almost unrecognizable in the form the scuttlebutt has since taken.

For a few years during the 1990s, the US Navy did issue "stress cards" to new recruits, but they weren't the "Get out of jail free" coupons military lore has since turned them into. Rather, these cards listed names and phone numbers of resources the newcomers could contact "if things pile[d] up." The cards were strictly for informational purposes: they informed recruits of available support services.

Navy trainers began reporting that some of the recruits had taken to raising their cards while being disciplined, as a way of signalling for time out. It's unclear whether any of those enduring basic training really thought that was the purpose of the cards or whether this was just standard armed forces jackassing, but the Navy took no chances and got rid of the cards.

This short-lived experiment with providing recruits with clear information about whom to contact when things went bump in the night has morphed into an unflattering and unsettling illustration of today's soldier as a creampuff. Notice how the story has mutated into one where the drill instructors are portrayed as honor bound to obey the cards when they are displayed to them, an aspect that wasn't part of things during the real cards' short life. The story has also widened its net; what was a Navy hand-out has, in the world of rumor, become a card issued to Army and Marine recruits, making this an Armed Forces-wide phenomenon.

Why was such a story so happily seized upon? We always want to believe anything we've been part of was the biggest, the baddest, and the best. One of the ways we bolster that belief is by looking pityingly upon the current crop who have since taken our places. The high school teams we played on were the toughest and most feared, with today's iterations only pale imitations of the ones we were part of. Likewise, the music of our youth has it all over today's stuff, and schooling in our day was rigorous and thorough, with the hike to the schoolhouse uphill both ways through the snow.

That sentiment, that need to feel superior through disparaging comparison, is part of what underpins this legend about stress cards. In any vet's mind, the armed forces went careening downhill the moment he left. Throughout the history of human endeavor, people have looked back to note with satisfaction how things have gone to hell in a handbasket since their glory days, be they bridge players, churchgoers, parents, or soldiers. It's just human nature.

Change is also threatening, and any shift in how things are run will always bring out the doomsayers, those who will feel it their duty to point out everything is about to come apart. They will hold up any small misstep and repeat any wild tale that seemingly confirms their gloomy prognostications. Just as the influx of women into the armed forces raised misgivings often expressed in "Told you so" kinds of tales, so the "stress card" canard quickly caught on in military lore because it captured the essence of what many believe, that today's army has gone soft.

Barbara "ice cream soldier" Mikkelson

Last updated: 24 July 2002



The URL for this page is http://www.snopes.com/military/stress.htm

Urban Legends Reference Pages © 1995-2003
by Barbara and David P. Mikkelson

[marinefamily5]

speeking of the ARMY what is funny the radio station in my town is doing a thing that one of the DJ's will change jobs with one of there listeners well a ARMY recruiter called in and said that he would change jobs with the DJ for a week and they ( the DJ's ) asked him he would be able to wear the uniform. the recruiter said they could prolly get him a PINK t-shirt. I laughed my azz off at that one. I thought to myself leave it up to the ARMY to say a PINK t-shirt.

[Marine84]

ohhhhhhhhh..................that WOULD be funny wouldn't it? Stress card my a$$ - figured it was BS

[criggleman]

Anytime during boot, if the recruit gets nervous, say the (guess it would be) drill sergeant is yelling at the recruit, the recruit can pull out the stress card and the drill sergeant has to leave him/her alone.


I need one of those for work:beer:

[outlaw3179]

I know this isnt the army but have you guys seen the new Air Force recruting poster.....Good thing It wasnt around a while ago.... I might have joined up :p

[Marine84]

That's ME Outlaw - how the hell did they get THAT pic?

[outlaw3179]

wow...those are some pretty big bombs you have there :)

[jetty546]

My recruiter read me a passage from a military magazine. it basically said, new "soldiers" are greeted at basic training by a colonel, not a drill sergeant, and told how proud they should be and that they are special for joining the army, also that they are running 60% less and focusing less on dicipline and military bearing and more on build sensitive compassionate citizens.

What the hell! this might get more people to join, but its gonna get these kids killed. the corps might put me through 13 weeks of hell, but i'd rather have that under my blet when the bullets start flying then being able to say im sensitive and compassionate.
USMC!!!:!:

[criggleman]

wow...those are some pretty big bombs you have there :)

Eyes front there Devildog.:evilgrin:

[outlaw3179]

Aye Aye Sir!! no eyeball liberty for this recruit!

[Camper51]

ummmmmmmm... I'll shaddup before MARINE84 pops me a good un....:D

[Old Marine]

Since the ribbon creek incident back in 1954 when a drunk DI took his platoon for a swim in the middle of the night and 6 recruits drowned, the Corps has been limiting the power of the DI's ever since. There's a long list of what the Drill Instructors can and can't do to a recruit, like denying a meal, a DI has to give a recruit 3 meals a day (exception is the Crucible), and I think it's 15 minutes to eat. There's a lot of limitations these days, but at least we are nowhere near allowing cell phones and having stress cards like the Army.

Unless you have been a Drill Instructor you should refrain from making statements like this.

Have you ever looked at the SOP for training a Recruit Platoon?

I had a Series Officer by the name of Captain Charlie Krulak and he personally told me to put the SOP in my bottom drawer and train the recruits to be Basic Trained Marines. In case you do not know Charlie Krulak went on to become the CMC. But that was before your time.

I have had a whole recruit platoon side step through the chow line and never put their tray out for the messmen to put food on it. That was rignt after COD and then they fell back in and we continued COD until their 1300 class.

What I am saying is do not make statements that you know nothing about.

Did you ever think that you had it easy in Boot Camp and got 3 squares a day?

I never did see anything in the SOP that say a Recruit has to eat.

I would bet you never had to Square eat with a spoon.

Inless you have been a Drill Instructor, never ever make statements that can only guess about.

[Lorix]

I heard somewhere a list of things Drill Instructors can and can't do to a recruit on the SOP, it was quite a list. That was one of the things on the list, I didn't make it up. Sorry if it's wrong and I'm totally off, I got it from another source, I'm just the messenger. I'm not a Drill Instructor and obviously don't know everything about it. Maybe things have changed more recently, and I'm not wrong.

But I know that when being quarter-decked there is a certain amount of push-ups and side straddle hops, and other exercises a Drill Instructor can make a recruit do, they cannot exceed that number. If you think this is a load of BS, my Drill Instructor showed us the card (right before graduation) that she has to keep with her that states how many maximum she can make us do, otherwise she could get in touble.

There is a list. Sorry if that previous input was wrong, I'm not trying to offend anyone, I'm just stinking up for what I do know, like this post. The other one may not be fact, but I found it on an internet version of the SOP, I did not claim it as fact, unless I do, please regard my posts as opinion. Maybe times have changed, the SOP probably has too.

[rproctor922]

My recruiter read me a passage from a military magazine. it basically said, new "soldiers" are greeted at basic training by a colonel, not a drill sergeant, and told how proud they should be and that they are special for joining the army, also that they are running 60% less and focusing less on dicipline and military bearing and more on build sensitive compassionate citizens.

I do not know what magazine that was but it is a load of bull or the article was taken out of context. I went through Army basic less than 4 years ago and know soldiers that have gone through afterwards. Trust me, there is a lot of running, you are met by DS's and you are never told you are special. It is not as hard as Recruit training, but it is still challenging. Maybe the article was really about the Air force. i had a buddy go through about five years ago and that is pretty much the way he described it.

[Marine84]

It's OK Camper - I'm not like a lot of other WMs - I get my feelings hurt if I don't get sexually harrassed. I tell the guys here at work that I'm going to sue them for NOT harrassing me - does something to a girl's ego.

[jgorosco]

Well let's see what I can do to sexually harrass you 84.

Wait a second I dropped my big pen in my lap, can you get it for me? Please?

How's that?

[Marine84]

there you go..............like that. Now WHY should/would anything like that make me mad? Is that what they're talking about with all of this harrassment trash?

Some people..................

[txrona]

It`s pretty bad when the reporters call the army solders but they don`t now what to call Marines. What are they doing eating the film of the marines. The drill instructers I had after marched a whole platoon into a demsty dumpster.:sick:

[jconne]

sorry if this is off topic but talking about boot camps, when i was deployed to team spirit in 93, we had three guys attached from nsa, a marine that i knew and two air force guys, one night on a mid watch we were swapping boot stories and come to find out the e-4 air force guy says i got you all beat, he was only in boot camp for 2.5 weeks, seems all his ROTC training from college and high school counted, the only reason he was there was for shots records and uniforms. don't know it was true or not but that is the story.

[Camper51]

Way ta go 84.... more people need to see that the world is not about them but is about all of us, both good and bad....:p I really feel that anyone who blows things out of proportion is taking things personally. Besides no one is going to change someone else's perceptions... I see the army as Wussies and that is just the way it is. If ya don't like it fire back and I will take it like a Marine and shoot back at ya!!! My Son in Law is in IRAQ right now in the Wussy patrol and he knows how I feel... He also knows how proud I am of his service, even if it is with the wussies. He also is smart enough to let this ol Marine know that he is just an old jarhead who has no clue where his arse is....hmmmmmmmmmmm:sick:

Semper FI

:banana:

[Lorix]

Back on topic.... I just read an issue of Marine Times, Drill Instructors pretty much will not yell at a recruit, and definately not in-your-face yelling. Recruits will not be pushed to their physical limits, they will get mats to do their crunches and other exercises so they don't bruise their tailbones. If they get tired of doing push-ups, they are allowed to do it from their knees. Guaranteed at least 7 hours of sleep a night. The Drill Sergeants will not himiliate a recruit. It states that on a bus ride on base where the new recruits were headed to their new squad-bay, one recruit started singing, and the Drill Instructor just stood there, couldn't/wouldn't say anything.

The Army is focusing on more positive motivation, straight up encourage recruits to do good. This has been in effect for about a year now, and the Army likes the results. Less recruits getting dropped, claims their new "soldiers" are more efficient, instead of not thinking straight having a DS in their face, they can better focus on the task at hand having positive motivation.

I would like to see what the Army is like in 3 more years, with this new generation of soft training. I would be surprised if they can think during combat. If they can't last a DS yelling in their face, how will they last bombs exploding and bullets flying? Lack of discipline will hurt the most, MA'AM, DISCIPLINE IS, THE INSTANT WILLINGNESS TO OBEDIANCE, TO ALL ORDERS, RESPECT FOR AUTHORITY, SELF-RELIANCE, AND TEAMWORK MA'AM. I yelled that so many times in boot camp doing IPT and such I will never forget that definition. But I can't see how the new Army soldiers will have any discipline at all.

[rattfink111]

I think the whole point of recruits being yelled at and given impossibly little time to do anything like getting dressed or making the bed is to acclimate the recruit to the stress of warfare. Having a DS yell in your face is very stressful and frightening but the recruit learns to function under that stress, by tying his shoe quickly, making his bed, whatever, while being yelled at. The shellshocked new recruit turns into a marine or soldier that is able to operate and perform their jobs under the extremely stressful conditions of warfare, to overcome their fears and do their jobs. I think if the DS's are not allowed to yell, it takes a lot out of their ability to create stress so that the recruit can learn to deal with it.

[Lorix]

Just have to correct something, it's not DS, that's Army, in the Marines, it's DI, Drill Instructor. And Marine is always capitalized. But personally going throught it, I agree. I know that being scared sh!tless and having multiply Drill Instructors in my face and inch away, yelling as loud and vicious as possible, very similar to a pit bull about to bite my face off with spit flying and everything, and having to try and think of the "right" thing to say next as this is going on, yes, I handle stressful situations a lot better now that I'm out of boot. Instead of freezing up or panicking, I can actually think straight when something's up. I am better prepared to think under fire, whereas the Army's new "boot" camp tends to soften their "soldiers", Marine's will have to think for the Army and have their backs because they can't handle their own when bullets start flying.

[jennifer]

PFFFT... I HEAR YA LORIX... I READ IN THE MARINE TIMES LAST MTH THAT THESE SOLDIERS WERE ON THEIR WAY TO BOOT AND THAT THEY WERE ALL SCARED AND ****... THERE WAS A INSTRUCTOR THERE (WHATEVER THEY CALL EM) SO THE RECRUITS WERE ALL NERVOUS AND THERE WAS MUSIC IN THE BACKGROUND AND ALL OF A SUDDEN A RCT STARTS TO SING AND THE INSTRUCTOR DIDNT SAY ****... IN THE PAPER IT ALSO SAID THAT HE DIDNT SAY ANYTHING B/C IT WOULD HELP THEM RELAX... ****IN B.S. MAN!! AND WHAT IS WITH THOSE FREAKIN STRESS CARDS... WHAT, I KNOW U AINT GONNA PULL OUT UR ****IN STRESS CARD WHEN UR ON THE FRONTLINE ARE YA!! :evil:

[Lorix]

I read the same story, and I totally agree. This just further separates Marines from whatever competition there is.

[Phantom Blooper]

STRESS CARD

Claim: Recruits in basic training are issued "stress cards," which when waved at demanding drill sergeants immediately entitle recruits to gentler treatment.

Status: False.
Examples:


[Collected on the Internet, 2002]
I have heard that during Clinton years, the Army issued new basic training recruits "Stress Cards" at select training bases as part of a test program. If the Drill Sergeant yelled too loudly or instructed the recruit to do anything that might cause them undue stress, the Private could simply hand the card to the Sergeant and they were to cease the offensive behavior.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Collected on the Internet, 2000]

I read about them but they weren't using them when I was in. If I remember correctly, it was a little yellow card that they gave you. Apparently if things were getting tough for you in basic, you could flash the card and the DI would back off and give you a "break" so you could compose yourself. The standing joke was that the color of the card spoke for itself... The idea, if I remember right, was heavily criticized (and rightfully so, what are you going to do in real life when the bullets start to fly, pull out the stress card and hope the bad guys stop shooting at you?) and the idea was eventually canned.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Collected on the Internet, 1999]

[The stress card is] a card these kids get when they go through basic training. when they are feeling overwhelmed or stressed out, they are to give it to their DI's (or whatever the call em now days) for a 'time out'.

my friend john, who was a 10 year enlisted veteran in the combat engineers who had done some 'hard time' in somalia (you remember the infamous fire fight over there involving the rangers) told me a story about a brand spanking new PFC who, during a field exercise, came up to john with this 'card' and said, "sgt, i need some time out. my stress card says im entitled to some time out." john, bless him, grabbed the stress card, tore it to bits and informed the kid, "stress card? you're in the REAL army now, kid. this is what i think of your &*^% stress card." Rip! Rip! Rip!




Origins: This
is one of those tales that has the smallest kernel of truth to it, but that truth is almost unrecognizable in the form the scuttlebutt has since taken.

For a few years during the 1990s, the US Navy did issue "stress cards" to new recruits, but they weren't the "Get out of jail free" coupons military lore has since turned them into. Rather, these cards listed names and phone numbers of resources the newcomers could contact "if things pile[d] up." The cards were strictly for informational purposes: they informed recruits of available support services.

Navy trainers began reporting that some of the recruits had taken to raising their cards while being disciplined, as a way of signalling for time out. It's unclear whether any of those enduring basic training really thought that was the purpose of the cards or whether this was just standard armed forces jackassing, but the Navy took no chances and got rid of the cards.

This short-lived experiment with providing recruits with clear information about whom to contact when things went bump in the night has morphed into an unflattering and unsettling illustration of today's soldier as a creampuff. Notice how the story has mutated into one where the drill instructors are portrayed as honor bound to obey the cards when they are displayed to them, an aspect that wasn't part of things during the real cards' short life. The story has also widened its net; what was a Navy hand-out has, in the world of rumor, become a card issued to Army and Marine recruits, making this an Armed Forces-wide phenomenon.

Why was such a story so happily seized upon? We always want to believe anything we've been part of was the biggest, the baddest, and the best. One of the ways we bolster that belief is by looking pityingly upon the current crop who have since taken our places. The high school teams we played on were the toughest and most feared, with today's iterations only pale imitations of the ones we were part of. Likewise, the music of our youth has it all over today's stuff, and schooling in our day was rigorous and thorough, with the hike to the schoolhouse uphill both ways through the snow.

That sentiment, that need to feel superior through disparaging comparison, is part of what underpins this legend about stress cards. In any vet's mind, the armed forces went careening downhill the moment he left. Throughout the history of human endeavor, people have looked back to note with satisfaction how things have gone to hell in a handbasket since their glory days, be they bridge players, churchgoers, parents, or soldiers. It's just human nature.

Change is also threatening, and any shift in how things are run will always bring out the doomsayers, those who will feel it their duty to point out everything is about to come apart. They will hold up any small misstep and repeat any wild tale that seemingly confirms their gloomy prognostications. Just as the influx of women into the armed forces raised misgivings often expressed in "Told you so" kinds of tales, so the "stress card" canard quickly caught on in military lore because it captured the essence of what many believe, that today's army has gone soft.

Barbara "ice cream soldier" Mikkelson

Last updated: 24 July 2002



The URL for this page is http://www.snopes.com/military/stress.htm

[Lorix]

You are on a mission to stop that rumor, aren't you Phantom?

[Phantom Blooper]

You are on a mission to stop that rumor, aren't you Phantom?

Lorix... accomplishing the mission is the main objective Marine!

Semper-Fi! "Never Forget" Chuck Hall :evilgrin:

[criggleman]

Move along Marines, this is a BS subject. :evilgrin:

[criggleman]

Lorix and Jennifer, ok you win you had in hard in boot camp more so than the wimps in the Army, so what NEXT. :devious:

[Lorix]

Yes, victory is mine! Oh, sorry got caught up in Family Guy, ;) . We really do need new smilies.... Anyways, agree, it doesn't matter male or female, Marine Corps boot camp is hardest of all. I take a lot of pride in that. The harsher the hell, the sweeter the heaven..... well, I don't really have an ajenda for this thread, so, in a no offense sort of what, let's dog on the Air Force's boot camp is the Army topic has grown mold and there is a refusal to touch it any further.

[Lorix]

The Army just doesn't have the same values we have. They are all about themselves making it out alive, they need to have the mindset to bring everyone back, whether in good condition, wounded, or dead.

(This is not up for arguement so do not pounce on it!)- I established the mindset (probably in boot) that the Marine next to me is more important than myself. I have to see to it they make it home, preferably alive, whether or not I do isn't much of my concern. Many Marines share simular values, and thus they exhibit incredible actions at incredible odds. Like darting across heavy gunfire to save another Marine, or even jumping on a granade.

[criggleman]

It's GRENADE not granade, this is why they don't let women in combat. They wouls spend all their time looking for a granade(no such animal).

[Lorix]

Oops!

I said it wasn't up for arguement! See, males can't read, this is why male Marines don't get desk jobs very often! :D

Anyways, one letter I was off by, the word is still understood to read grenade. Sorry if I type too fast and don't pay much attention to what I type. But I don't see why misspelling grenade is going to mean the difference between life and death in combat.... and don't come up with something stupid like I write a message to another infantryman stating I need a dozen granades to defend my position, and they have no idea whatsoever that granade means grenade, so I die and so do they. If they would put me in infantry (I smell another arguement coming) maybe seeing grenade spelled a few times, I would've caught my mistake and all would be well.

Not a good enough topic for arguement, just a simple spelling mistake so have a nice day. :D

[criggleman]

Just messin' with ya , Lorix. Semper Fi

[criggleman]

Lorix,
You know what I like about you? You have no idea what retreat is, have a good day Marine.

[yellowwing]

Fort Sill basic training is in the news for the abuse and death of army trainees in the medical rehab troop (http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2006/05/12/MNGO3IQOBM1.DTL).

On Parris Island Mess Duty the group of Recruits from "processing-out" (?real name?) platoon were shuffling through. A few of us made p1ss poor comments and heaped onto their misery. Then their Drill Instructor came up and tore into us.

They were his responsibility even if they were on their way out. And he did his job protecting them. :evilgrin:

[Lorix]

Retreat? What's retreat?

LOL, just having a little fun myself!

[Future-USMC-LT]

Off the Army for a minute. I was downtown in front of The Alamo earlier today for a commissioning of a Marine officer candidate. There was me, the new LT, one other LT, a Captain, and a LT Colonel, all of us in Blues Alphas. There were a crapload of new Air Force "summer camp" graduates around, some didn't even salute and some didn't even bother to salute properly. WTF?!?! It seemed like they were lowering their heads in shame whenever they were near us.

[Echo_Four_Bravo]

Reading through this thread has me worried. Not because some people claim that Army Boot is too easy, let's look at where their infantry is trained and compare that to where the admin clerk types are trained... the Army does things different, and it works for them. There are different levels of stress placed on recruits at different locations.

What worries me is that Lorix's DIs had a card that told them how many pushups or side straddle hops a recruit could do on the quarterdeck, and it sounds as if the FOLLOWED IT! That concerns me much more than a false rumor about a stress card. How is some bureaucrat making rules supposed to know how many push ups a recruit needs. My Drill Instructors could tell you that I needed more than any card could have ever dreamed.

Let me guess, you don't get quarterdecked after TAPS anymore, do you?

[Future-USMC-LT]

Not when I was there. After taps they didn't **** with us at all.

[Slater]

Gents:

Speaking from the standpoint of an "A" school instructor and seeing Marines two weeks out of MCT, I can say that the caliber of Marine has dropped as of late. That, however, is not something that is irreversible nor the fault of the individual Marine. Society has placed so much emphasis on personal rights and the importance of being unique that personal responsibility and the importance of being accountable for one's own actions have been all but smothered. This type of mentality has infiltrated the Corps as well, to its deepest levels -- boot camp. Marine Corps order clearly states that hazing is not tolerated. Anything that is deemed as "humiliating" falls under the category of hazing. The meaning of humiliation can be construed many ways. What is humiliating for one may be simple intensive training. The solution to this problem is to swing the pendulum the other direction. Those of us in mentorship roles (which should be all of us; as we know if there are two Marines together one of them is in charge) need to work that much harder to instill the values we hold dear. What I have done that works well is to revert back to the fourteen leadership traits. They have not changed and never will. If you ask any Marine he or she can name most of them, if not all. But do they know what they mean? My Marines were baffled. They had memorized these words without ever placing meaning upon them. Once they understand the power behind words such as integrity, courage and honor, they need to see those words exemplified -- in you. As leaders, we determine the future of the Marine Corps. We choose whether to wallow in society's self pity or rise to the standard of the Marines who have come before us. And when you do falter in the presence of your junior troops -- and you will -- do not be afraid to admit you were wrong. Because although humility is not one of the leadership traits, you cannot be a great one without it.

[Echo_Four_Bravo]

Slater, we thought the same thing when the Cruicible first started. We thought the Marines we were seeing come to the fleet were not as disciplined or as motivated. Now, you are seeing the same things. I wonder if it isn't really just us... we forget what we were really like as young PFC's. I don't know. I do hope that I was wrong, and that Marines weren't "getting worse" as the years went by. If they were, and they still are, something isn't right.

You are dead on about applying the 14 leadership traits. But, things do change. The pinning ceremonies that were so common when I was a boot had gone away by the time I was nearing the end of my enlistment. An NCO telling a Marine to drop was rare, too many people said it was hazing. Now, I hear that a DI can only force a recruit to do a limited number of exercises when being punished! It scares me to think that the Marine Corps is getting softer. I just hope that I am seeing things wrong.

[Lorix]

Thank you EFB, that's exactly the point I was trying to make. The Marine Corps has gotten softer over the years. As Future put it, they don't **** with us after lights. A few times my DI would come out after lights and yell her head off at rifle watch, wake all of us up. They technically were not allowed to do that, but they managed to get away with it,they had to let us sleep 8 hours, unless we had rifle watch, no longer than 2 hours a night, and they cannot be consecutive nights.

They were not allowed to deny us chow, sleep, religion (we even got time for devotions every night), a head call, could not quarter-deck/pitt us for more than (I think it was) 15 minutes (although some DI's got away with more, sometimes a few hours, but they could've faced disciplinary actions for it), could not deny us medical, dental, see the chaplain, could not pt us or have us do any strenuous exercise for an hour after innoculations, could not pt/drill us outside in temperature in excess of 90 degrees, we are required to have water on us at all times, had to give us square-away time everynight (training days only with exception of the Crucible, and 4 hours on Sundays). They were not allowed to curse at a recruit, although it often slipped. They could not open/read your mail, had to pass out mail every night. They could not physical touch, hit, shove, etc you in any way (although that tends to slip too).

As far as the PT cards, yes my DI showed us the card and explained it's purpose right before graduation with the same intent I have here. They are limited as to how they can train a recruit, very limited. I think it was no more than 60 4-count pushups, which not too many would be able to do anyways, I think 120 4-count mountain climbers, don't remember any of the other numbers. We did not know there was a card until just before graduation.

Some of you senior Marines our there with experience might tell me all this is a load of Bravo Sierra, but this is from what I have heard before going and seen during training. If I remember anything else, I will add it to the list.

[dscusmc]

This thread is starting to raise some interesting and important points about leadership. The questions of training and discipline seems to be the issues...are we getting soft? Or, are we actually becoming MORE disciplined? I think the latter is true. I don't think we are asking are NCO's and SNCO's to ease up, but we are asking them to be MORE purposeful in training Marines and administering discipline. Boot camp is a great example of purposeful training. Little things like what time the lights go out are carefully calculated to produce the best training. Its important for lights to go out and for the Marine Corps to allow recruits the opportunity to recover. That way we can train them harder during the day without unnecessary risk of injury.

Of course, there is something to be said for preparing recruits for stress and sleep deprivation, but boot camp is a controlled environment. The point is, that Drill Instructors have a sense of purpose in everything they do.

Take for instance MCMAP. The January 2006 Leatherneck ran an article on MCMAP that says, "Today's Marine must be a warfighter, a diplomat, a winner of hearts and minds, and a protector of the weak....Getting down to the grit of the program, each Marine learns how to fight better, when that fighting is appropriate, and what degree of force is appropriate."

The same is true of how we need to be training and disciplining Marines - with a sense of purpose. The days of loose cannon discipline are over - where we train or punish a Marine for the sake of training or punishment. The Corps remains small, but is being asked to take on important responsibilities in defense of the nation. This means, we have to become increasingly efficient at what we do. This boils down to even the most basic tasks of training and discipline.

I appreciate the sergeant's comments (slater). Its good to see NCO's spearheading the discussion on leadership principles, because the NCOs are the backbone of our Corps and the emphasis on the leadership principles is one of many things that separates us from other military forces around the world. I know I'm a little concerned about perceptions that the caliber of Marines is dropping, ESPECIALLY when they are articulated by Marine NCO's.

That highlights the importance of the NCO in a young Marine's development. I think that the Marine Corps mentoring program is a step in the right direction. For the older Marines that might not be familiar, here is a link: http://www.tecom.usmc.mil/mentoring/index.htm.
Your viewpoints and experiences on leadership are invaluable.

I think this topic has been getting some attention recently in our professional journals. In Oct 2005, the Gazette ran an article called "Co-Opting the Charismatic Malcontent." In that article, the author explores alternatives to traditional notions of discipline in getting "malcontent" Marines on-board with the program. The point is that we need to consistently focus on becoming more efficient leaders. Drill Instructors are the consumate professionals when it comes to physical discipline. I personally don't care if they have cards guiding them on how many pushups are safe for a recruit to do on the quarterdeck. Guidelines and checklists are good, it doesn't do the Marine Corps any good if some kid winds up with a stress-fracture or injury because of overkill. Nevertheless, I trust our Drill Instructors to get the job done.

Yet, not all Fleet Marines have a Drill Instructors training in imposing corporal punishment. Even if they did have that training, they still need to be an effective leader and choose the training or discipline that best serves its purpose (e.g. correcting a specific behavior). Some traditional methods of hazing are downright LAZY forms of leadership that aren't constructive or serving of any purpose. Hopefully, the public wouldn't ever perceive us as going soft because we are moving away from those methods. I think the opposite is true - we are encouraging Marines to be more calculating, purposeful, and disciplined in how we train.

I know its fun to bash the other services...but, at the end of the day they are serving their country also. I remember one year during Cobra Gold, I was a Lance Corporal. My NCO's hosed me and couple of other LCpl's and went to Phuket. They stuck us with ALL of the pre-exercise work. It was freaking hot in Thailand. We could not have finished the job if some Army Soldiers hadn't stuck around that weekend and helped us. They easily could have taken their libo and had some fun. But, they stuck around in the hot sun and helped us out.

Anyways, the other services are nasty compared to our standards. But, it doesn't matter, because they are serving our Country the same as we are. But, we need to spend less time worrying about them and instead focus on getting better (widening the gap between our standards and theirs).

I think the mentoring program is a bolder step at re-committing Marines to the leadership principles. Slater is right on that many young Marines can recite the principles, but don't know what they mean. My own view, having been an NCO at one point, is that we need to do a better job of giving young Marines the opportunities to PRACTICE the leadership principles at the fire-team levels. Semper Fi!

[Shorty101]

Stress cards actually exist?

[usmarine0313]

The Army has stress cards now...how come that doesn't surprise me..all they do is f***ing whine.

:flag: :beer: TO THE CORPS!!!! ORRAHHHH

[Echo_Four_Bravo]

dscusmc, your points are well taken. I can see the argument from your side, and I cannot say I totally disagree with it. However, I think something is being lost. You said something about an article dealing with "malcontent" Marines, and trying to get them on board. In my mind, a senior Marine should never have to get a Marine "on board". It is not an optional lifestyle, you follow orders because they were given, not because you agree with them.

When orders are not followed, there must be a consequence. I believe that physical punishment in the form of intense PT is a great option, especially in the case of more minor infractions. You would not want to see a Marine's career harmed by an NJP over something like not performing a police call or being 5 minutes late to work. However, something must be done to correct the behavior, and ensure that the young Marine does not think (s)he got away with anything.

As far as "hazing" being a lazy form of leadership, I cannot say that I fully agree. While it may be at times, I have seen too many cases where it worked. When it did not, more formal types of punishment were used in subsequent problems.

[dwmusmc81]

i have recently seen my son graduate from basic. the place hasn't changed but the way they do things has. i know that some of the training is better, time dictates improvement, yet some of the work has got easier. i felt that each step of the way i got to earn that little bit more.

[drillinstructor]

Lorix, you have placed so much bogus info on this thread about Drill Instructor's. You have no clue what you are saying. Worry about being a good Marine and quit sending false info out on boot camp.

[dscusmc]

Those are good points Echo. I agree that PT can be effective. In fact, the essence of military justice is swift effective punishment. When I say "hazing" can be lazy, I mean that some leaders might prefer to smoke a Marine without having any sort of purpose or giving any thought as to whether there are greater underlying problems (personal problems, depression, etc). Instead of addressing or solving the issue, their "hazing" basically has unintended results like lowering morale. It many cases, it becomes personal. Its easy to be hard, but its hard to be smart. Every Marine knows that some units play games as their solution to problems. Sometimes that might be effective, but I can attest from personal experience in Okinawa that it didn't get the leadership anywhere and simply destroyed morale.

The point I was getting at, is that physical training punishment shouldn't be a knee-jerk reaction to problems. Of course, I understand your points to be that limited types of intense physical training should be acceptable for spot-corrections. I think you make a reasonable point. I disagree, but only because I think that the punishment should fit the crime...if we are talking about minor infractions, then there are more effective ways of correcting them. I know you use the tardiness issue only as a hypo. Of course, there are work-related solutions to that problem.

I don't think that an NCO making a Marine do a few pushups or pullups would raise occassion for actual UCMJ charges. Plenty of shops have Marines do pushups if they show up late or call someone by the wrong rank. I don't think the policy-makers have their blinders on to that. I don't even think there is a major problem there if it is fair and consistent across the board. I think it's self-evident that more severe solutions ranging from insane gas mask runs, to whatever you can think of, would be over-the-top for a minor infraction.

In fact, the Handbook for Marine NCO's makes clear that "discipline imposed by compulsion and fear of punishment will inevitably break down in combat or any other severe test."

Also, you're right, in a perfect world a leader shouldn't have to make a Marine get on board with the program. I was pointing out the malcontent article to highlight the fact that the Marine Corps is continuously looking for ways to improve our leaders and to emphasize that I don't think we're getting softer, but more focused on trying to remain physically and mentally tough while maintaining high op-tempos. The mentoring program is a good example of efforts to improve the bond between NCOs and junior Marines. The malcontent article concludes that, "The Marine Corps can ill afford to alienate or remove Marines who have the potential to contribute. The Corps needs every able-bodied Marine to carry his load...greater leadership is required to gain the cooperation of every Marine in the unit..."

I think slater made some points about young Marines at their MOS school still needing some professional development in terms their accountability. The mentoring brief highlights some important background info.
http://www.tecom.usmc.mil/mentoring/index.htm Click on the: Mentoring Brief (Powerpoint Presentation) - 54 KB.

Namely, that Marine Corps surveys have indicated that:
-there is a lack of accountability and responsability among junior Marines.
-No cultural imperative to be Marines 24/7
-Many junior Marines lack trust in the chain
-NCOs have the biggest impact on junior Marines and their trust
-NCOs want tools to impact their Marines better

Those first three results are bothersome. I think the mentoring program will have positive results. I think we can all agree that NCOs need to be empowered and Marines need to have accountability and discipline. I don't think anybody would get too bent out of shape over an NCO making a Marine push -- if that's as far as it ever went, unfortunately thats not the case. I like the mentoring program because its gets everbody focused back on the leadership principles. Hope thats clearer, its definately not shorter. Its important stuff for Marines to talk about...

[LuvOki]

Im sorry i dont have the patience to read every post for the last 5 pages, so if my post turns out to be a repeat i apolagize.

An Army Captain was leading a company of soldiers from one place to another, doing whatever it is soldiers do. A Marine is standing on top of a hill overlooking the road the company of soldiers is marching along and watches as they come abreast of him. From the top of the hill the Marine yells, "A single Marine is better than a squad of soldiers!!" The Captain halted the company immediately and started bellowing orders. "First Squad first Platoon! GET UP THAT HILL AND SHOW HIM WHAT SOLDIERS ARE MADE OF!" So as the first squad starts running up the hill, the Marine runs down the back side of it and the Captain watches his soldiers disappear over the crest after him. A few minutes go by and the Marine Reappears and shouts, 1 Marine is better than a PLATOON of soldiers!" The Captain shouts for 2nd platoon to go up the hill. The Marine runs back down the other side and disappears with the platoon right behind him. A few minutes later the Marine re-appears on the top of the hill and shouts "A single Marine is better than a COMPANY of soldiers!" So without even waiting the rest of the soldiers run over the hill and disappear over the other side. The Captain, standing confused after a few minutes sees one lone ragged soldier struggle to the top of the hill. "RUN SIR IT WAS AN AMBUSH! ANOTHER MARINE WAS HIDING ON THIS SIDE OF THE HILL THE ENTIRE TIME!"

[Echo_Four_Bravo]

dscusmc, the points you are making are valid, and I agree with you to an extent. I can justify why everything you said makes total sense, and how it all works into a valid argument. But, it also left me thinking.

You said "Namely, that Marine Corps surveys have indicated that:
-there is a lack of accountability and responsability among junior Marines.
-No cultural imperative to be Marines 24/7
-Many junior Marines lack trust in the chain"

You also indicated that these first three things are things that concern you. Now, when I was a young PFC or LCPL I would have totally disagreed with numbers one and two, and number three would have been true only at the regimental level. I did have total faith in my chain of command through the company level. While I may be an isolated case, I don't believe that to be true. I would guess that most of those in my unit would have believed the same thing I did, at least in large part. If that is true, I would assume that the same would have been said through at least II MEF, possibly the entire Marine Corps.

If that is the case, we have to look at where things have changed and why it has not been good for the Corps. I will admit that a large part of the change is probably due to the change in the people that are becoming Marines. In general, the young people of today do not share the same world view as a person growing up in the 1980's or early 90's. But, Recruit Training should level the field in this area, at least to some degree. I would also think that a lack of physical punishment is not the root cause of the problem. While I believe that it could help correct the issue, and you disagree, we should agree that this is not where it originates.

So, being a current leader of Marines, where do you think the problem lies? Is it that NCOs do not have the necessary leadership skills? Are the officers not providing proper leadership at their level? Or is it something else? Maybe if we understand where the problem lies, it would be easier to understand the direction that the Marine Corps is taking.

[dwmusmc81]

to read what lorix says makes me cringe at what goes on in the minds of young people. it seems that loyalty, commitment, and honor, are just words to be read not engrave in the heart. i feel that the thought of being a member of an exclusive brotherhood is not holding any meaning anymore. it seems that all the young ones want to do is prove that they shouldn't be bothered to be pushed to the extreme, it should just be given to them. if he wanted some card to have the situation stopped or timed on how long you can do pt, i hope that in the case of battle the enemy remebers to read that section on the rules of engagment.

[jgorosco]

Natural BK sounds like sniff sniff, oh yeah BullSh*it. Yeah wannabe go play somewhere's else. Sounds like a wannabe. Give me a Plt# Comp#.

Or else go play with your self

[Shadowman777]

Natural BK sounds like sniff sniff, oh yeah BullSh*it. Yeah wannabe go play somewhere's else. Sounds like a wannabe. Give me a Plt# Comp#.

Or else go play with your self

Heard that!
>> i will be the first to admit that boot camp has gotten a little soft and wont deny it.<<
What the hell is with that? What is his point of reference to what exactly is soft and what is hard? I have never met a Marine who says that boot camp was "a little soft."

[Shadowman777]

Perspective BK. There will be disagreement over what I am about to write.

You gotta remember that the Corps boot camps slightly adjusts to the times. During times of war, the DIs have more liberty to get physical with you (to get your @ss ready for battle) then they do during times of peace.

You went in during a time of war. I went in during a time of peace. The DIs were not allowed to lay a glove on you in 1979 - and would have been busted for doing the things you described in your first post. Now don't get me wrong - they had ways around it - like bouncing your M-16 off your head because you failed to catch it! In my platoon they also used the biggest guy in the platoon to do what they could not. It was what it was.

You also have the "Old Corps" mentality being better thought line. You know it's the, "When I was your age, I had to walk 5 miles to school - up hill both ways." Hell, I still use that line, but it simply isn't true. Makes for a nice story though.

While I agree that prior to our time - DI's could get more physical with you - I submit that it was not as physically hard (PT wise) nor as mentally challenging. Boot camps were shorter in duration and such back then. And MCT? I never had that! Today, even Airwingers have to go through that.

Again, there will be major disagreement concerning this - especially from the old-timer Marines.

I can only give you my perspective - which is the Marine Corps is better now then it has ever been. Marines are smarter and stronger then ever. Hell in my boot platoon of 60 - 5 guys were there because a judge said, "Either jail or you join the United States Marine Corps." Today, they would ALL be rejected. In 1979, a high school diploma was not needed to join. Today, even with a GED, you might not make it in.

The Marines of today - which you are part - are setting a standard that will be difficult to equal. Don't think less of your accomplishment just because you weren't beat with a stick or there wasn't a DI running around with an artillery shell.

I'll bet that old timer Marine was beat with a stick - running 5 miles to and from chow hall - UP HILL BOTH WAYS!!! lol

Just my thoughts ...

[Shadowman777]

i am a private fresh out of boot camp and have a couple things to mention about my experience in the last 3 months. i will be the first to admit that boot camp has gotten a little soft and wont deny it. my drill instructors told us that the marine corps was getting a little soft and they wouldnt have that from us. they told us the rules they had to follow and then said, "you think we are going to do that, hell no!" a couple years ago they made them stop swabbing the deck with a wet towel, we did that. we have to get 3 meals a day and 15min for each meal. the only time we got 15min to eat was the warriors breakfast. and i dont know how many times dumped our whole tray of food. they can only IT you for 15min and do a certain number of exercises, that was out the porthole. we would get IT for over an hour sometimes and they would make us spin around in circles, get dizzy, then do mountain climbers. and they weren't allowed to touch us, well, it was more like they didnt punch us in the face. we got choked out, thrown to the deck, heads pushed against the bulkhead. point being, we got ****ed up. they instilled a since of pride in our platoon that wasnt in the rest of the company. did they get in trouble for some of the things they did, yes. but they would come back and tell us that they would do everything they could to make us better marines, and if that meant punishment on part of the drill instructors, so be it. we may have not had it as hard as some, but i know we didnt have it as easy as we were supposed to.

You need to consider that what your DI's told you was simply part of your training - the "soft" part nonsense!

LOL! Imagine how many *other* DIs are saying the exact same thing to their recruits - RIGHT NOW!!!

Talk other boot Marines at MCT. You may find a common thread!

And Cap the "M" when you type Marine!

[NaturalBK]

And Cap the "M" when you type Marine!

Aye aye Corporal.

[Ramon]

Once a pond of time HQ's Marine Corps sent SSgt "A" to Fort Lee, VA for PetroSpl school. To make along story short! Ck in a day early to ck out the Army. What I saw was disturbing. Reported to the classroom that following Monday. Since I was the senior man I could drive my POV and assume that was the class president. The Fort was on tropical hours the workday was 0600 to 1200 w/bk at 0930. Arriving at 0530 at the classroom, observed the Army coming to class, marching in some way I never seen before. The students and myself report to the classroom where the Director of the school intro training and instructors. The class president was elected from the PFC's that were in the class. There I go assuming again. This was the New Army. After three (03) days of watching students sleep in class and grouping the females in class I had enought. I spoke to the Director and told him there was going to be a coupe at the school. The next day before class the president was going to dismiss the formation, I step in and fire him and read my warren to them:

To all who shall see these presents, greeting: Know Ye, that reposing special trust and confidence in the fidelity and abilites of Ramon Almendarez Jr, I do appoint HIM A STAFF SERGEANT in the UNITED STATES MARINE CORPS to rank as such from the FIRST day of NOVEMBER, nineteen hundred as such SEVENTY THREE WITH PRECEDENCE NUMBER 168. This appointee will therefore carefully and diligently discharge the duties of the grade to which appointed by doing and performing all manner of things thereunto pertaining. And I do strictly charge and require all personnel of lesser grade to render obedience to appropriate orders. And this appointee is to observe and follow such orders and directions as may be given from time to time by Superiors acting according to the rules and articles governing the discipline of the Armed Forces of the United States of America. Given under my hand at Headquarters United States Marine Corps this FIRST day of APRIL, in the year of our Lord nineteen hundred and SEVENTY FOUR. The kicker was all Armed Forces and since no one out rank me I was incharge. Called them to attention, give them a right face and double time them around the school until class started.
:evilgrin:

[txrona]

Good for you top that should wake them up through in some pushups and it will be just about right. Semper Fi
Ron Allsbury

[kentmitchell]

Lorix, get your legends straight: Ribbon Creek was in May of '56.

[Shadowman777]

Lorix, get your legends straight: Ribbon Creek was in May of '56.

>>I may be too drunk to walk but, By God, I'll crawl like a Marine. <<

LOL - I like that!

[jennifer]

That is good aint it Steve??

[Shadowman777]

That is good aint it Steve??

LOL - did that at MCAS Futenma. Was in a field I believe. Slept pretty good in those weeds as I recall. Then there was that thing about "ralph" - but I'll never tell.

[jennifer]

LOL!!! You dirty guy you!!! ;)

[Cpl Malicious]

Okay being a Marine that has switched services (you can read why in the Marine only board) I have first hand experinces with the NEW Army.

I joined the Army National Gaurd for a "try one" I ended up going to OIF III with them and I will tell you that yes the Army is alot different from the 'Corps.

In the Army there are only Cpl's in "combat arm" MOS's me being Arty turned Security Forces (basically convoy escort, QRF, gate guard) I was allowed the privilage of retaing my NCO status as Cpl. The wierd thing is the Army has Spc's which are also E-4's these guys are paid the same as a Cpl but have no responsibilty as far as an NCO, being a Cpl in the Army is kinda like being a senior lance cooly, you don't get much respect you just kinda make the best of it and make people respect you through hard work, persaverince, and your Marine Corps leadership traits.

The majority of the Army doesn't understand the meaning of pride and is about instant gradifacation, awards, patches, and of course screwing around with women.

The 101st Airborne was coming in theater around the time my unit was rotating out and we shared plenty of time at the chow hall with them. We called the 101st the "hundered and worst" here they were, the pride of America's Army units "Air-Assualt" but in fact they were more like horny rabid dogs, that would steal anything they could and hit on every female on post, (not that its a bad thing to explore your options) but for a female Sgt to allow PFC's and Spc's to call her "sexy girl", and "baby doll" openly and in front of other NCO's and Soldiers and did nothing. It was appauling to say the least.

I don't want to go as far as saying that the recent events that have happened in Iraq with that unit are just but i will say that the new Army's way of allowing **** bags to do as they want to keep the "numbers up" is just pathetic.

The Army is at war with itself as far as the best way to lead, train and motivate young people to go to war.

The Army belives that giving berrets and badges away to everyone will make the young troops to as they are told, however, as I said instant gradification only goes so far.

I could go on and on about the faults of the New Army, but I'm not gonna bore you with the mindless *****ing.

simply put, the Army and the Marine Corps are like apples and oranges. just right now the army is rotting and the Marine Corps is not.

[crimsred]

Its as simple as this plp join the army. Plp join the Marines but are not given the title until it is earned.

[yellowwing]

The wierd thing is the Army has Spc's which are also E-4's these guys are paid the same as a Cpl but have no responsibilty as far as an NCO
That's the part that disturbs me! Marine Corporals are proud of their Blood Stripe, a sign to be accountable and LEAD!

Nothing garish or flaunting about it. A humble strip of red that marks over a hundred of years of warrior tradition. And each one of us that proudly wears it knows we must lead, take initiative, keep courage and bearing.

[mlurtsema]

I did it the other way around. In 1977, I enlisted in the Army. Did my basic and Advanced Training at Fort Sill, Oklahoma. I was with Artillery, and was stationed at Fort Bliss, TX with the 3rd Armored Cavalry Regiment. Once my tour was up, I got the hell out -- and good riddance.

I enlisted in the Marine Corps a few months later at MCRD San Diego. After MCRD I went to Infantry School at Camp Pendleton and Amphibious Recon School at Coronado.

My experiences were entirely different from the very beginning of training. In the Army there was lip service paid to espirit de corps, but it was simply that -- with few exceptions. There was always a sense of every man for himself, and people were more than willing to get there's at someone else's expense.

Army basic training, was somewhat difficult, but I always had a sense that the harassment served no purpose other than to satisfy the particular enjoyment or ego requirements of the Drill Sergeant. I had this fat assed Drill Sergeant that couldn't even run very well -- he would start us on a run and get breathless and tired, so he would stop and PT us while he caught his breath. With one or two notable exceptions, I never had a great deal of respect for the NCOs I worked with in the Army, from the beginning.

There was always a sense of sloppiness of character, or a lack of character and discipline. The Army of my day seemed to be filled with a lot of undisciplined and disloyal ****s. Work details were divied out simply because someone didn't like you. Not because you were part of a team with a vision and a need to accomplish things.

If you were part of a battery or a platoon that was under favored status and did well on a manuever, the entire team would get a commendation. If you were part of a team that did well, but were not in a favored status, only the sergeant would get a commendation -- for the exact same thing. If the sergeant was not favored, your team not win, no matter how well you did...unless the platoon sergeant was favored and needed a commendation to help his career. In which case, only the platoon sergeant would get the commendation -- for the good work your team accomplished. This situation was highly de-motivating for me -- especially because of its blatancy. It was politics at its worst.

I won't say that the Marine Corps was perfect. Although with time and difference my judgment is much less harsh toward it than the Army. For one thing, the Marine Corps is much more of a meritocracy than the Army. Simply put, you are what you do -- its pretty much black and white that way. As I said, I went to boot camp in San Diego -- it was the most difficult training experience of my life (until I went to RIP and ARS anyway). And, in boot camp and all other training I went through with the Corps, there was always a purpose to everything. No matter how difficult a day I was having I felt that my instructors had an underlying sense of respect, not only for our beloved Marine Corps, but also for me as an individual who stood up and said I am willing to earn the title and will go through whatever it takes to do so.

Perhaps imperfect, but there was always a sense of espirit de corps, a band of brothers, a shared vision of what it means to be a United States Marine.

I guess that is one of the biggest differences. In the Army, graduation from basic was not such a big deal...sure there was a parade, but there was never a sense of becoming part of something bigger than me. There was never a sense of pride that I had earned anything. I knew how to be a soldier, and I sort of knew what was expected of me. And I knew that if I kept my mouth shut and just played the game, it would all be over with one day. In the meantime, don't volunteer for anything, don't be noticed, don't do anything that is going to **** off someone who can make your enlistment miserable. It was a terrible tour.

In the Marine Corps, graduation from boot camp was one of the pivotal experiences of my life. Boot camp has informed my approach to everything I've ever done since, and it has singularly made the biggest difference to the successes and achievements I have made in my life -- which while not grandiose are significant and personally satisfying. There is forever an espirit de corps, a sense of pride and achievement. Because once upon a time I was able dig down deep enough and do what I had to do to earn the title United States Marine. And while that might sound cheesy to someone who hasn't earned that right...it definately is not. It is a good thing.

My time in the FMF was spent in training to be among the best. I quickly figured out that I wanted to be more than an 0351 anti-tank assault man. So I asked, and based upon merit was invited to be part of 1st Recon Battalion. There was never anything easy about it. For example, I knew it was going to be an interesting day once when during RIP, I saw a pool, firehoses, and a sign that said, "If you are not unconscious, you quit."

In the Marine Corps, there was always a sense of you do not quit, ever --

If I had to define what it means to be a Marine, at its heart, that would be it...A Marine does not quit -- ever! Semper Fi brothers and sisters. And Chesty Puller, wherever you are.

[Zulu 36]

I have heard that in the Air Force Boot camp(or whatever the Air Force calles it), that one could get an "Off Base Pass".
I'm not stating it as i fact, but as a question. Anyone know?

Yes, they do, but only on their last weekend in basic training. My oldest daughter went through a couple of years ago and they had a one day off-base liberty in San Antonio. But, considering the AF has a six-week basic, the whole thing sounds like on-base liberty to me.

[Alphaonethree]

From my great grand father all the way to my brother all Army. I broke the tradition. Marines all the way. My dad told me that I threw away 4 generations of traditions by not going Army. Kind of funny, I got married, My father in law is a Marine , I am a Marine and both of my sons are Marines. I think I have my own tradition going on now.

[yellowwing]

From my great grand father all the way to my brother all Army. I broke the tradition. Marines all the way. My dad told me that I threw away 4 generations of traditions by not going Army. Kind of funny, I got married, My father in law is a Marine , I am a Marine and both of my sons are Marines. I think I have my own tradition going on now.
Even if your Pops don't understand, we and your Grand Kids will. :flag:

[Alphaonethree]

Shadow made the Comment that in 1979 Drill instructors were not allowed to touch the recruits. Well if that is the case, HQMC forgot to let Sandeigo in on that little secret. Our drill Instructors abused the sh*t out of us. No blood just brusis. And I can tell you I did not see any instance where it was not warrented. The Marines have a new saying " Pain is just weakness leaving the Body". Well in 1979 getting cracked across the head was just " Stupidity leaving the body" I think it is a valuable tool in which to train recruits, This tactic must only be used when all attempts to train otherwise have been tried. And DI that absuses for fun should be prosicuted. there is adifference between training and sadistic.

[jinelson]

I was in Platoon 2218 in San Diego in 1967 and our Drill Instructors never touched us or used harsh abusive language. What happened in the Platoon stayed in the Platoon. Man were we a bunch of clumbsy fall down bump onto walls Platoon.

Jim

[jdp031399]

HAHA thats funny, Staff

[jetdawgg]

That's the part that disturbs me! Marine Corporals are proud of their Blood Stripe, a sign to be accountable and LEAD!

Nothing garish or flaunting about it. A humble strip of red that marks over a hundred of years of warrior tradition. And each one of us that proudly wears it knows we must lead, take initiative, keep courage and bearing.

Michael, I would not even wear my Blues until I got the stripe

[ggyoung]

Time frame 1957. A friend of mine joined the army reserve, went to army boot camp came home and joined the Marines. He said that army bootcamp was as hard as Marine bootcamp as far as the phisecal(sp) end but Marine bootcamp was 5 times harder on the mental end.

[Manymoonsago]

Shadow made the Comment that in 1979 Drill instructors were not allowed to touch the recruits. Well if that is the case, HQMC forgot to let Sandeigo in on that little secret. Our drill Instructors abused the sh*t out of us. No blood just brusis. And I can tell you I did not see any instance where it was not warrented. The Marines have a new saying " Pain is just weakness leaving the Body". Well in 1979 getting cracked across the head was just " Stupidity leaving the body" I think it is a valuable tool in which to train recruits, This tactic must only be used when all attempts to train otherwise have been tried. And DI that absuses for fun should be prosicuted. there is adifference between training and sadistic.

In '68 we were indoctrinated to say that none of our DIs ever abused us. I remember that we had one poor kid who was picked up by the platoon after being in the brig for lying (about smoking a cigarette). One of the DIs broke his arm (I think by hitting him with a rifle butt) and when he went to the corpsman they asked him what happened and he wasn't going to lie again so he told the corpsman. There was then a threatened investigation and we were told that we might be at Parris Island for another couple of months and there was talk of a "blanket party." I vaguely recall being warned of it a night that I had fire watch but it didn't happen on my watch. I don't know if it ever happened but the kid with the broken arm didn't graduate with us and I didn't see him after that.

I heard afterwards that the same DI had injured another recruit with the next platoon and was prosecuted and busted down to Private.

I'm not sure whether that kind of thing hurts the Corps or whether it's a part of the Corps. The Corps asks a lot of people and there are some people who should not be part of it. It's not a picnic. On the other hand, I don't think the Corps should be a refuge for sadists.

[RLeon]

From my great grand father all the way to my brother all Army. I broke the tradition. Marines all the way. My dad told me that I threw away 4 generations of traditions by not going Army. Kind of funny, I got married, My father in law is a Marine , I am a Marine and both of my sons are Marines. I think I have my own tradition going on now.

You traitor! :D

I was the same way. Everyone in my family that served did so in the Army.
going back to atleast WWII era. Funny thing is it never really occured to me to join the Army, I saw the Marines as the only option for me.

[ggyoung]

I went to bootcamp in 1964 and I had 1 DI by the name of BEVELHIMER that beet me just about everyday. He and the PC tryed every way they could to brake me. They never did brake me. I sewered that if I ever saw BEVELHIMER that I would kill him. I ran into hime at 29 Palms in 1966 and I thanked him for everything he did too and far me. This was after my 1st tour in Vietnam. It has its own reward.

[DWG]

I was in Platoon 2218 in San Diego in 1967 and our Drill Instructors never touched us or used harsh abusive language. What happened in the Platoon stayed in the Platoon. Man were we a bunch of clumbsy fall down bump onto walls Platoon.

Jim

When I was at comm/elec school at SD I happened to see a DI "trip" over a lay down recruit on a run around the airport. That DI was real clumsy too, tripped over that damn recruit 3 or 4 times (hard) before the recruit got up and out of his way by starting to run again.;) (We were washing windows on the second floor and the DI didn't see us until we started applauding).

Meanwhile, when I was at PI, they relieved, temporarily, 9 out of 12 DIs in our series. Coudn't get any one to back up any charges against them.:evilgrin: They all came back and finished the series.

[jahhead88]

Stress Card huh? Well, well. I thougt I've heard everything. What's the next concept to come down the line? I know, time outs. You can wave your streess card at your enemy whose trying to blow your head off, and request a time out to get in touch with your feelings.

[Phantom Blooper]

MARINEDADKY.....your son is in training. Black flags won't count when and if the bullets are flying down range. Black flags are mostly there for the 'Mothers Against Marines" and to not give congress more fodder to use against us. Training has a SOP to follow to save lives. Even in the fleet there are black flags. They want the recruits and Marines to check in not check out! It will get better with time.

:evilgrin:

[jinelson]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v660/jinelson/froglaffing.gif

Jim

[DWG]

We had "black flags" in the summer of '68 too. Didn't mean we didn't PT in the squad bay, though. I don't recall any "free" time to read magazines. If we read anything it was the little red book, held 12 inches from your nose.:evilgrin:

However, it has been a MF of a summer and I'm a native Floridian. Ain't no point in killing a bunch in Boot Camp through heat stroke! They'll have plenty of time to get used to the heat later. You really don't have to practice being miserable!;)

[Phantom Blooper]

Jim...Did I get the frawg?:beer:

[jahhead88]

Ah the Mothers Against Marines, I forgot about them, bad mistake. I also learned from experience that the black flag is not 100% foolproof. I was stationed at Camp Lejeune and was assingned to march in a parade during a ceremony which there was a change in commanding generals. Prior to forming up, I noticed the black flag come down and was replaced immediately with a red one.

After the parade, the change of command ceremonies, and the formal dismissal by our new commanding general, I noticed as I was walking back to my car, the red flag came down, and up went the black flag.

[jahhead88]

Are you right on that one? I spent four years working in a Missouri Juvenile Detention Facility. There was no personal responsibility at all for those kids. I had a kid one night threaten to cause a riot if I didn't give him what he wanted. I tried reasoning with him, but to no avail. So, finally I told him if he continued to threaten me, he wasn't going to get anything but consequenced for it.

He slammed his desk drawer, I radioed for assistance to remove him. The kid was exonerated and I got written up because I should have been more "sensitive" to the situation. What really stood out is that my group leader told me, " you can't run this cottage like the Marines." Well, if it was, then I don't think this would have happened.

I've seen a lot of kids that are let off the hook and not held accountable for their actions, because " you don't want to damage their self esteem." And yes, you've got to respect their individuality, and let's not forget that now honesty is a relevant term. Teachers can't hold kids accountable because some kid might make up something to get that teacher fired. DI's are limited in how many pushups they can give a recruit. I know mine pushed the limit and I'm grateful for it.

I'm grateful I was taught integrity and the importance of teamwork in the Marines.

[jahhead88]

I think the problem is paralysis by analysis. Whatever happened to 'Just Do It' ?

[Alphaonethree]

Finally got the answer on stress cards......No such thing

[Dannycanterberr]

I went to H.E. school at Ft leonard wood Mo. after boot camp and the army recruits were wandering around going to the theatre and smoking in uniform. We would wake them up every morning singing cadence on the way to chow. we had several army boys that just wanted to hang around us, though we never let them get too close. Our army instructors told us how much they enjoyed working with such a tight group as us and marines before us.

[SlingerDun]

Damn no such thing. I was wondering if 7/11 peddled stress cards? It would be nice to pull one from my pocket when the going gets tough. If it worked i'd sure look alot younger and prettier.

Anyway last month i walked into an Army recruiter office just to get a close up look at todays Soldier. There was about 6 of them milling around calling me sir, can i help you. These men looked pretty stout and healthy. Which is great!

--->Dave

[yellowwing]

Individually I got no problem with Rangers. I worked with one and room mated with him on the road for construction, good guy that Floyd, had my back 100%. It took awhile for he and I to mesh as a team.

My Bro Carlos, a Marine from 8 years before me. We bonded immediately and I swear at times on the construction job we could read each others minds.

We'd get on the roof and I'd shout out, "Its a fine amphibious day!", and Floyd would answer, "Great day to be a Ranger!" Fun times. :D

[jahhead88]

My dad was in the Army in World War Two. He used to tease me about being a Marine. And of course being the respectful son I was, would tell him ARMY stood for Aren't Real Marines Yet. :)

And then of course there was my best friend who joined the Army. He would call me jarhead and I would call him dogface. I've come to realize though that our trainings may be different, but sometimes heart and character are what's important.

Whatever branch they're in; I'm thankful for their service.

Semper Fi,

[Zulu 36]

I read a lot of posts there's a lot of hate here, I dont know why I can only think of jelousy

I'm soldier, wtf is a marine? marine life? marine fish? wait, marine biology?

Im just a specialist, E-4, I dont march as good as you, I am not as disciplined I remember talking in formation. yea I hit on female nco's like mentioned above who the **** cares you wanna be gung ho, live your military life like in prison go ahead.

None of that means I'm not a good soldier, I joined to fight, and Im really good at it. what I do down-range is all that matters to me, at the chow hall etc, you can be the role model we all laugh at you
Jealous of what, pray tell? Jealous of wearing more gee-gaws on a uniform than a Third World dictator? Jealous of a lack of discipline? Laugh all you want, because you ain't one of us and laughing won't make you one.

BTW, you forgot to fill out your profile as required in the site rules. Damn, there goes that lack of discipline again.

Yuk-yuk. :marine:

[SlingerDun]

I joined to fight, and Im really good at it.This aint really fighting here its arguing, debating, *****ing, gettin the juices flowin ya know? But you came to the right place, we got some fighters here and most of us are not blind Marine life easily spooked at what we can or cant eyeball and size up, Soldier.

--->Dave

[jahhead88]

I'm curious. If you don't give two ****'s about this website, why are you on here?

[greensideout]

What can be said of the difference between apples and oranges? They are what they are.

[bigalholmes165]

I read a lot of posts there's a lot of hate here, I dont know why I can only think of jelousy

I'm soldier, wtf is a marine? marine life? marine fish? wait, marine biology?

Im just a specialist, E-4, I dont march as good as you, I am not as disciplined I remember talking in formation. yea I hit on female nco's like mentioned above who the **** cares you wanna be gung ho, live your military life like in prison go ahead.

None of that means I'm not a good soldier, I joined to fight, and Im really good at it. what I do down-range is all that matters to me, at the chow hall etc, you can be the role model we all laugh at you

Joined today.

No profile!

Bashing Marines!

You ain't gonna last.

[semperfiman]

i think he took his puppy ass home

[yellowwing]

jelaous of the name you want and cant have SOLDIER

" because you ain't one of us"

if my ass wanted to ride in navy equipment, if I gave two ****s about this website, then yes I would've read the rules here filled out a profile etc.

those are skill badges, like airborne, air assault, pathfinder, medic and combat badge, there's not that many. you have to earn them so yea I'd proudly wear them, you ... even though foot-sailors go to Army schools you are not ALLOWED to wear them
Oh crap now we done ****ed of the Army guys. Shame on us!

[Zulu 36]

jelaous of the name you want and cant have SOLDIER

" because you ain't one of us"

if my ass wanted to ride in navy equipment, if I gave two ****s about this website, then yes I would've read the rules here filled out a profile etc.

those are skill badges, like airborne, air assault, pathfinder, medic and combat badge, there's not that many. you have to earn them so yea I'd proudly wear them, you ... even though foot-sailors go to Army schools you are not ALLOWED to wear them

All I need is my Eagle, Globe, and Anchor, plus my rifle shooting badge. What more does a Marine really need to prove his/her worth to other Marines except his/her performance when the **** hits the fan?

If you want to wear "I let the drill sergeant yell at me without crying" expert badges, go ahead.

[thewookie]

you have to earn them so yea I'd proudly wear them, you ... even though foot-sailors go to Army schools you are not ALLOWED to wear them

I earned some chump wings from the army and I wore them in garrison? WTF, nobody told me I couldn't? Maybe you should shut up and go back to your hole.

I was going to comment, before I ran into dum dum's post, my experience around the army. I find the regular army to be pathetic, undisciplined, no esprit DE corps, out of shape jokers. They really are sorry. I respect the fact that they volunteer and I believe a man's heart is all that really matters, but for the topic that's my 2 cents.

There is no comparison, total polar opposites, black and white, on or off.

And I was going to say this before I read that junk from that soldier, do you really think I envy or am jealous of being called soldier,,,, c'mon are you serious?

Marine or soldier?
solider or Marine?

WTF are you kidding me????

I think Rangers, or those army folks that have been trained and been to Ranger school are good to go, but what percentage of the regular Army is Ranger trained?

Interesting to note the most recent honor grad at Ranger school is a Marine who teaches at MARSOC. Marine's are usually the honor grads when they go there, what's that tell you?

Go back to your pack cubscout, go away

[Alphaonethree]

The fact that the soldier got that defensive that fast tells me that he feels inferior and threatend by my beloved Marine Corps. I would tell him do not feel this way as we will protect him as well. But, Rounds down range? Tell me soldier what do you know about putting rounds down range, Down range to you is 75 yards. Down range to a Marine is 750 yards

[Achped]

like denying a meal, a DI has to give a recruit 3 meals a day (exception is the Crucible), and I think it's 15 minutes to eat. .

LOL!!!!!

Maybe 15 minutes from the time you leave the squad bay till the time you get back!

[jahhead88]

My first MOS school was at Fort Benjamin Harrison in Indianapolis. While there I was among 8 Marines picked for the change of command ceremony. Since all four of the services were represented; we had 24 Army 16 Airforce 16 Navy and 8 Marines marching.

The next day I happened to overhear one of the drill sergeants talking to his people wanting to know how it was 8 Marines could outshine the 24 Army personnel in that parade. What made it so funny is that one of the specialists that was marching in the parade with me, when we were doing our rehearsal, he criticized me as being a p*** poor marcher, and how I needed more practice, etc, etc. Well apparently the new commanding general didn't share that opinion. In fact he called over to the company barracks I was living in, and told the company commander how disappointed he was with the performance of the soldiers marching in the parade. Oh well, I guess I wasn't that bad of a marcher as he thought.

[RLeon]

All I need is my Eagle, Globe, and Anchor, plus my rifle shooting badge. What more does a Marine really need to prove his/her worth to other Marines except his/her performance when the **** hits the fan?

:thumbup:

[killerinstinct]

even though the army is our sister service the people in it are gerally nasty. they eat sundaes walking in their wrinkle bombed out cammies. they earn ribbons more than a pre-k kid gets gold stars on the board.

But if they want to look at it from any other perspective theres a reason why we dont need to go to their training to be in the army and they go thru bootcamp to be in our Corps...

[maverickmarine]

Yeah, I found the regular Army to be nasty as hell and yes I have been to a couple of their schools as well and yes all the Marines that were on deck did the best. It's been proven time and time again, both in peacetime and war that Marines are our nations greatest warriors. The Rangers and SF boys that I have been around were good to go, not to our level of course, but good all the same. LOL

[SlingerDun]

There's a lot of limitations these days, but at least we are nowhere near allowing cell phones... former unified heavyweight champion Riddick Bowe as i recall got his phone confiscated and didnt last long in boot camp without it. In '96 it was probably a large phone not easily concealed in the cargo pocket and without vibrating mode he's busted when the "posse" calls. After pow wowing with the CO he was allowed to resign, dropout, quit whatever after a few days. I felt myself grow warm with anger everytime i heard about that ass hole and his little Carolina campover.

[Eric Hood]

Hey my fellow Leathernecks,
Marines and sailors go to "boot camp". The Army goes to '"basic training". Let's not allow them to steal this scared term for our right of passage.
Semper Fi,
Eric

[jahhead88]

Riddick Bowe gets to quit. It motivates me to know that I survived something the unified heavyweight champion couldn't deal with. And I didn't even have a cell phone back then.

[EWOK]

Riddick Bowe gets to quit. It motivates me to know that I survived something the unified heavyweight champion couldn't deal with. And I didn't even have a cell phone back then.

He was supposedly excused from Combat Hitting Skills.

[RLeon]

LOL, he wore Marine Corps color boxing shorts when he fought Golota, they even had chevrons on them.

[thewookie]

I was somewhat embarrassed by that whole mess with Riddick Bowe. I mean what Marine (well I know a few) what normal everyday Marine, is going to have him scrubbing sh*tters in the head on field day? Okay, so you think you're tough and might be up to it? Sure, the guy knocked out Mike Tyson in his day. I can't see what anyone was thinking, really. I could see him starting out and being a great Marine, with a little help from us of course. But after you do what he did, and have that type of celebrity (I know about Ted Williams back in the day when you could do something like that) but nowadays, it's foolish. Bad PR, some Lieutenant, Captain or who knows General Officer, the first person in charge that heard about his desire should have squashed it.

BTW I guess that doggie decided the fight wasn't going to be won here and high tailed it back to his pack. Silly boy,,,go be Army strong would ya

[thewookie]

Unless you have been a Drill Instructor you should refrain from making statements like this.

Have you ever looked at the SOP for training a Recruit Platoon?

I had a Series Officer by the name of Captain Charlie Krulak and he personally told me to put the SOP in my bottom drawer and train the recruits to be Basic Trained Marines. In case you do not know Charlie Krulak went on to become the CMC. But that was before your time.

I have had a whole recruit platoon side step through the chow line and never put their tray out for the messmen to put food on it. That was right after COD and then they fell back in and we continued COD until their 1300 class.

What I am saying is do not make statements that you know nothing about.

Did you ever think that you had it easy in Boot Camp and got 3 squares a day?

I never did see anything in the SOP that say a Recruit has to eat.

I would bet you never had to Square eat with a spoon.

Unless you have been a Drill Instructor, never ever make statements that can only guess about.

I would hate to have you as a recruit. With all due respect you're the kind of DI, I can tell right here that would be my worst nightmare. Semper Fi I'm sure you made some fine Marines!

On the subject real quick:
When I first came into this particular thread/post for some reason I only thought that it was one page, so my comments were generally based on reading one page of responses, until just now when I re-read the entire thing. I just went back to the beginning and read it all and I'm kinda stunned. That,,,thing,,,lorix is a phony? And she was talking like that? The simple fact that she comes back after this post from Old Marine, and still flaps her lips to him is absolutely crazy to me. Wow, it's amazing (maybe not as much since she's a punk azz phony) I don't want to sound stupid (wouldn't be the 1st time) or to go overboard but I think this site might want to think about requiring DD-214 proof or active/reserve ID card evidence, or something legitimate in order to get on this site, and have a profile to call yourself a Marine. Is that too much? It could be a logistical nightmare but it's worth it I think. I mean she was so freikin disrespectful to him, nevermind the rest, but her whole freikin response blows my mind. What's going on Marines? How can something like that be stopped or prevented? It isn't only her, if they can hide among you and me, in our community (these phonies or whatever you call them) then they can hide real easy on this website. Is it just me? Does anyone else get bothered by this? Why can't we do something?

[EWOK]

I believe the Army extended boot camp one more week.

[PFTstud]

what's a stress card?

a rumour.

[Alphaonethree]

What ever you do, Do not assume that it will be anything like the Army. And once the DI's find out you were in the Army they may give you just a little special attention. The special treatment should not last to long because obviously you have seen the error in your ways and have joined the Marine Corps. Good luck

[jrhd97]

When I was with 2 LAI ( later LAR) the whole battalion would go to Ft. Bennign for a month to use the bradley live fire rangers ( they had cool moving target ranges). Camp Lejeune had limited ranges for the 25mm cannon on the LAV. The scouts got to go to Ranger School for a couple weeks, then train with our own crewman. For us Ranger School wasn't all that hard. Our H&S Co. ran the Rangers " O" course, that's were there best of the best run, and the whole company finished with time to spare, based of the time table we got from the Army.
While mainside we would see Army privates( they weren't called recruits) in there greens going to the px, bowling alley, movie theater. This while in basic. While on a hump, we kept a formation, Army recruits were straggeling, spread out for over a mile. Got to see some on a break, sitting on the ground in little groups ,or at picninc tables smoking (litteraly) and joking. There drill sergeants were at another table sitting down talking with there covers off. WTF???

[Walker89]

Fortunatly for me, I went to MOS school in Ft. Knox, and had the opportunity to be around "Soldiers", I have never seen anything more nasty in my entire life, The DS's themselves were bogus, given there were a few that were the real deal, but the majority were a joke. Former Marines that joined the Army told me themselves "Stay where you are, don't make the same mistake I did". "Soldier's" can't march, hell we rifle qual at the 500 yd line, they qual at the 300. I would take an 0300 over a Ranger any day of the week or a Marine cook over an Army grunt any day of the week.

I went to bootcamp Nov 26 2007 in MCRD San Diego, graduated Feb 22 2008. Bootcamp was awesome, I have never even heard of there being a certain amount of push-ups/side straddle hops card, thats bogus. You arent given 15 min to eat, **** that ****, you are however given 7 hours of sleep whichout being ****ed with, with the exception of the crucible. Our platoon got 1 hour of senior DI time a night, shower, read letters, work on gear ect. For the most part I think its the same as the "old corps" bootcamp, but idk, as far as the "hazing", the DI's can "Correctively move you" they arent supposed to physically **** you up, why would it make sense to break someone? But honestly whos going to believe a recruit over an NCO/Staff NCO? I earned my ****ing uniform, my ega, my ****ing title, it sure as hell wasnt given to me and no one will take it away. The Army may be well equiped but the Marines are well trained.

Long story short, Marines are the ****, bar none. Ask any soldier and he'll say "I would have joined the Marines but..." theres always a but, "but the army gave me a bonus", **** that ****, I didn't join for money and I sure as hell didn't get any.

**** just to prove my point, everyone in the Army is a sgt, call a Marine Staff Sgt and above a Sgt and prepare to get your world rocked, dont ever **** up someone's rank in the Marine corps, that just goes to show you that we work our asses off for our rank and actually take pride in it, no matter how low of rank we are, **** I'm just a lowely PFC, but call me a ****ing private and I'll **** your **** up, I earned what little I have.

Semper ****ing Fi. :usmc:

[Mikewebe]

The Sgt thing really irks me. I had to go to the Army's PLDC, which was a giant mind screw, they made all students be called Sgt. So all of the E-4's would get used to the idea of being Sgt's one day. Then you get some 19 year old E-4 because of college made platoon leader and fail 3 out of the 5 graduation requirements.

[LanceCriminal]

I unfortunatly had to go to Ft. Jackson for my MOS school. In my class was 2 Marines. Me and my buddy. The rest was split between the other services, mostly Army. I have never seen a group of more undiciplined ****s in my entire life. Don't get me wrong. I had ONE good friend in the Army, but he respected me as a Marine and never gave me any of that "Army is better" BS so I gave him the same respect. Everyone else thought that the Army could **** on God's Throne and get away it. It was disgusting. Their idea of a field day is pathetic, but ofcourse Army Sgt's inspected our rooms and would walk in and tell us to clean it again (even though it was damn near perfect). After a week of this we got annoyed. The Army privates would come up to our rooms and say "Just because you are Marines does not mean you can get out of cleaning the common areas!" And we would reply by laughing and shutting the door in their faces. I also saw a SFC walking down the street in his BDU's eating a cheeseburger. A private who decided he was going to "pin himself on" (more like velcro himself on) getting "sweetly talked to" by a different SFC and the private had to audacity to stand there waving his arms and scream at the SFC. I tell you right now if I decided to pin myself on and scream at a Gunny I would probably not be alive the next day. Soldiers and undisciplined, poorly trained, fat and lazy, scared little girls. My mother was in the army in the early 80's. After I took leave the first time I brought all that up to her and she laughed and said that **** would not have flied in her day. I can understand a little less stress so that they dont get their poor little feelings hurt. But so relaxed that a E-2 can scream at an E-7 like his rank does not mean anything? What is the Army comming to?


:usmc:PROUD TO BE A MARINE
SEMPER FI!:usmc:

[Mikewebe]

Lol, I got in trouble at Ft. Lewis for using green duct tape and a black marker to make my own "Qual" badges, I had a PX, a 0 for zero schools and a Burger patch for chow hall qual. I forgot I had them on when I went out. It was pretty comical when the E-6 cook got bent when I went through the line.

[mgkusmc]

You know what....I believe the Marines are tougher than the Army, my Father (retired special forces) believes the Marines are tougher than the Army. But what does it matter? Each branch has its strong points, every service member is a volunteer, we all bleed the same and we all die the same under THE SAME FLAG FOR THE SAME CAUSE!

I've met Marines who are absolute turds and lots who are God-like, I've met Soldiers who I would follow into hell and some I wouldnt give a spare mag to, I have met sissy Sailors and braver than I Corpsmen, I have met disgusting Airmen and Airmen who I am glad are in the skies above me. And I have never met a nasty Coast Guardsman.

What I am saying is whats it matter how we are different, it doesnt. What matters is that we are all serving together to protect the Constitution and our way of life. We are all different but we are all one......

You can agree with me or not but that is all I have to say....

[LanceCriminal]

You know what....I believe the Marines are tougher than the Army, my Father (retired special forces) believes the Marines are tougher than the Army. But what does it matter? Each branch has its strong points, every service member is a volunteer, we all bleed the same and we all die the same under THE SAME FLAG FOR THE SAME CAUSE!

I've met Marines who are absolute turds and lots who are God-like, I've met Soldiers who I would follow into hell and some I wouldnt give a spare mag to, I have met sissy Sailors and braver than I Corpsmen, I have met disgusting Airmen and Airmen who I am glad are in the skies above me. And I have never met a nasty Coast Guardsman.

What I am saying is whats it matter how we are different, it doesnt. What matters is that we are all serving together to protect the Constitution and our way of life. We are all different but we are all one......

You can agree with me or not but that is all I have to say....

You make a very good point. My father was in the Air Force, my mother in the Army. I always give them **** but it is a friendly competition type of thing. I am also not one to talk **** to a soldier until they say something to me first. That is the big point. While we, as Marines, should (does not always happen) have the respect to not start a war with the Army. Every soldier, except the one I mentioned before, seems to find enjoyment in trying to get Marines to fight with them. They talk **** all the time and honestly have no right to. We as Marines talk **** because, well lets face it, we are the best. We are arrogant because 13 weeks of boot camp and all the training we go through other than that gives us a right to. Other branches don't know what it is to be a Marine. Look at my signature! Two good quotes to back up what I just said. Even the Army hates the Army. Ask a soldier why he didn't join the Marines and his answer is going to start with "Well I was going to but...." OR "I tried to but I couldn't because of...." I also know a few soldiers that use to be Marines...everyone of them says "Don't change branches...stay a Marine or get out, just don't change branches."

Being a Marine is a special thing and it takes a different breed to do so. And anyway, a nasty Marine is still better than a good soldier.

[Mikewebe]

Anything in the Army 18 series is far harder than what Marine grunts do. I was with a LRSD unit and I learned far more than I ever knew existed about Infantry. And the next step the 18 series, is long and arduous. Green Berets and Delta deserve much respect.

[LanceCriminal]

Anything in the Army 18 series is far harder than what Marine grunts do. I was with a LRSD unit and I learned far more than I ever knew existed about Infantry. And the next step the 18 series, is long and arduous. Green Berets and Delta deserve much respect.


This may be true. I was more or less talking about just straight regular Army. I am kinda biased in the situation too. You have seen both sides and I have only ever been a Marine. I am not saying the Army is trash. It may sounds like that, but I just perfer the Marine Corps side of the house. And honestly, I have never once had a SF in the Army talk **** to me. I have met quite a few of them and they don't fall into the "I'm a piece of ****, so I am going to treat you like ****" catagory.

[sparkie]

Just finished the life story of Chesty,,,, It was said the Marines walked out of Inchon With helmets, packs, and weapons, the Army dropped everything, even their vehicles, which Chesty comandeered, and kept over their protests.

[Mikewebe]

Lance Criminal, I learned from guys who were former Spec Ops and Long Range Surveillance guys which is what I was while I did my guard time, so much stuff about planning and detailed stuff. No packing lists and crap.

I learned to respect the active Army Operators that weren't straight line grunts. Some real cool stuff. But the down side is until your e-5 you can't be expected to spell your name without supervision.

[LanceCriminal]

Lance Criminal, I learned from guys who were former Spec Ops and Long Range Surveillance guys which is what I was while I did my guard time, so much stuff about planning and detailed stuff. No packing lists and crap.

I learned to respect the active Army Operators that weren't straight line grunts. Some real cool stuff. But the down side is until your e-5 you can't be expected to spell your name without supervision.


See thats what I am saying, it is just some unwritten code among SF (on all sides of