Rumsfeld is Running the War?

[redneck13]

[COLOR="DarkGreen"]:mad: :evilgrin: I hear on the news and listen to the retired general's talk about "WHAT A TURD RUMMY IS, AND HE'S RUNNING THE WAR?" I thought that General's, Military, personnel were the one's fighting? Aren't they the one's who should be doing the running?, not some lame brain who has never seen a day of combat?, or maybe he has? I don't know. I do know this....."THIS WAR IN IRAQ, AFGAN, IS BEING HANDLE NOTHING SHORT OF VIETNAM."
Now the White House can spin it anyway they want. I know too, that some good things have been done by our troop's. And some high ranking Al-Queda have been killed, also killed in other places. That's wonderful. From the General's who know, and finally can speak out, I've only heard of one general who support's rummy. They talk about his arrogance, (so evident in press conferences), his correcting of them when they have to report, his reluctance or dismissal of what they tell him. In other words, "I'M THE BOSS, YA'LL WILL OBEY!!" Tell me, how can somebody without being a Military Leader of troops into combat, be able to understand exactly what is going on? If the General's, Col's, down to the Pvt tell of what they need, what is going on, what need's to be done?, "WHY ON EARTH DON'T HE DO IT?" If he's reluctant to listen, to supply, to do as the ones in the know?, then he should get his butt out!!" It's a matter of life and death for our Marines, and other service people, and that shouldn't be taken lightly. I have said on several times, I'm against this war period. I support, will support the troops 100%. I will not support someone who is doing what the General's say he is. And King George need's us, the American People to tell him so. And the next President. Oil, other money making things this war is doing, this is not my agenda here. It's..."IF WE'RE GOING TO FIGHT A WAR, THEN DAMN IT, LET THE PEOPLE WHO FIGHT WAR'S, CALL THE SHOTS!!" /COLOR]

[lovdog]

Let History not repeat itself?? I can "vaguely" remember that Viet Nam was similar in nature!! Presidents and their Cabinet members electing "how" to properly run the war - Kennedy started it, Johnson escalated it and Nixon "really" escalated it - and finally the "People" ended it - otherwise we would still be there. They told the American Public that it was "To Stop Communism" - those were the days that we actually believed that what we were fighting for had some reasoning to it. Iraq is not much different - "Weapons of Mass Destruction" (spred of Communism) - a way to make Americans feel threatened and continually afraid. North Vietnam - bad guys, Americans - good guys, Iraq - really bad guys, Americans - really good guys!! Vietnam - we have come to make you a free people, Iraq - we have come to make you a free people also. We left Vietnam in shambles, the Americans blew the crap out of Iraq too, but are rebuilding what we destroyed! Vietnam - almost 2.5 million dead, Iraq - well, some say its around 30 thousand so far, but who knows & who's counting anyway. Who do you believe?? Both Presidents said - believe me - I will show you the way - 1. The whole world is safer because we will stop the spread of communism from spreading. 2. Iraq - we will also make the world safer and stop the threat of nuclear war and terrorism from spreading! Both countries thousands of miles from the USA!!
As both wars continue, more soldiers and Marines are being killed by booby traps - the enemy plays the defensive role - striking from the shadows instead of direct assaults. Washington and Politics become more and more involved in their opinions on how to handle the war - the military is starting to question some judgements, even at the higher levels. The media is doing their usual bias reporting - bad things that happen sell more newspapers!!The Media forgets to give coverage on the courage, determination and countless good that our Military forces have done!! Instead they smear the headlines with prisioner abuse, civilian casualties, captured construction and aid workers who are being held for ransom, and military autrocities!! As Marines - you were asked to do what is necessary to win a war without question! Whether Viet Nam or Iraq - you, as a Marine, were asked by the USA to make a stand for the good of the Nation. As Marines - we answered the call, we are here, we will defend our Nation and beliefs til our breath leaves our body - all we ask in return is that what we do is necessary in the eyes of God and humanity.
Viet Nam was a different time, different place - maybe, war similarities - you bet, confusion - sure. Mixed emotions - loss of innocent lives???? Do we learn from the past - or as they say "destinied to repeat itself"!!
I can still remember - a long time ago - the phrase from the song - "All we are saying - is give peace a chance"!! It would be a nice thing if tomorrow we all awoke & the war would be over, the terrorists would just go home - & all the boys & girls would return from the war zones to their loved ones!! But, I guess as long as there is some Son -of - a B*tch out there making trouble that just ain't gonna happen - thats why God created Marines!! SF

[Gary Hall]

Ladies and Marines: I wish to publically affirm total (100%) support to the efforts of the President and to the SecDef Don Rumsfeld, from the beginning, now and to the bloody end of the program. Gary Hall, PFC, W-3-1, 1950 - 1951, also US Farmer, Tyler, TX.

[lovdog]

I'll have to stick with Wind on this issue. Perhaps Korea was a different scenario - it ended with an armistice to stop the war. But, we still have bases in South Korea - still watching their borders, and still costing vast sums of money to keep them in tact, and that conflict ended fifty years ago!! Viet Nam turned into a catch 22 for the US and the Military. And as long as the NVA & Viet Cong were determined to win regardless of how many lives it took, how dedicated was America to prolong a war that was winless?? How many more lives are you willing to sacrifice - and how much capital are you willing to expend in the process? The French found out the hard way 20 years prior to us showing up - what lessons did we learn from them?
Now the Iraq question - ok, our President sized up the situation, talked to his cabinet & supposedly the Pentagon Heirarchy and decided it was in our best interest (get rid of the WMD) to go after Sadaam & end his power grip on that part of the Middle East. If this was the motivation - to stop the threat of Nuclear War - what about the threat from China? They already have nuclear missles as does Russia - not to mention lots of manpower? I would think that they would be a larger threat overall that tiny Iraq?? Or are we just protecting Israel or our friends in Saudi Arabia from their neighbor? Now, the latest scuttlebutt is going after Iran?? This really has one confused? Is Iran the next threat to the USA - do they have some super duper missle that they can fire & hit the center of Washington or Los Angeles?? Or maybe the latest - a briefcase that can be smuggled into a cargo hold of a jet that is bound for National Airport in D.C.?
I have a stake in this game - its called a son - and I only have one!! He's been to Korea and Afghanistan - set for another deployment in September - chances of Iraq are pretty good. Unlike most of our Congressmen - they don't have a stake in this game that they voted for - their sons & daughters (most of them) are still in college - or away from the threats of war.
It would be great to say that I back my leaders 100%, but until the real truths surface on this mission - I'll stand my ground also. I will agree with you on one point, but you won't have to wait til the "end", cause the blood will continue to flow unless we find a common ground to end the hostilities. SF

[jgorosco]

The way I see it, everyone wants Peace that lives here in the United States but the truth of the Matter is People in the Middle East, Asia, and Africa all want a piece of the Good Ol' USofA. They want to see us demolished and I for one do not want to see that happen. I understand that Parents with kids in the Service are worried about their childs lives but you have to understand we all have to make a sacrifice one way or another to help OUR Country make it through the tough times ahead. We aren't a Nation built on pascifists that let people walk all over US. We need to stand strong and UNITED for our Country to survive. IF I could or can I would sacrifice MySelf so your child can come home and be with his family. And yes alot of our goverment doesn't have family that serves or has served in the Military, but I am sure alot of your family has not served in the military as well. So what is the difference? So are you better than someone in your family cause your SON or DAUGHTER is serving and their's is not? I don't think so. I am not a person that goes out looking for a fight but I know because I am not an idiot that there are people out there that wish harm on me. So if I can or ever get the chance to find these people, yes I will confront them with all the Might I have to make them back down and not test the waters for a fight. I think this is the same principle that the US has. But remember just because you want Peace doesn't mean that everyone across the world wants the same thing. They are just looking for the oppurtunity to take advantage of any weakness we show. And in my eyes we are showing alot of weakness right now by crying about our Gov't and letting the media and Hollywood JackAsses speak out for what they think the Common folk want. To be a strong Nation we need to Back our Gov't and keep our dirty laundry to ourselves.

My 2 cents which isn't worth spit to most but oh well F*ck It!1

[redneck13]

:mad: :evilgrin: I agree with you that we should support our Gov't. I agree with you we are "vulnerable." I agree with you, as I would, that if someone would want to do some more harm to us, I too would defend this. I also agree that other countrie's don't see things our way, and they could still harm us. As far as the Gov't, supporting it? If it's right. If we're told the "truth." I will support our Gov't and it's leader's, if, only if, the cause is for the good of our country. Iraq did not set up the hijacking's and hitting the tower's. Ben Ladin did, (Ben Laden, Ben Ladin?) If our President would come clean, as to "Why?", he invaded Iraq...this stuff of WMD'S? There was bad intel, we should've waited until we knew for certain. This makes me suspicious of the reason's. That's all I want from our Gov't, "Truth", which is not, never has been in the past years, forthcoming out front to the people. The President can spin it any way they want. Sir....When you've been a war, that so many died, injured, and lied to, it's hard for a person, such as me, to believe what our President is trying to Promote. There's to many, "if's and's, but's, I don't know, wrong intel, as with Vietnam. Don't try and sell this war Mr. President under the venue of, "TERRORIST", even though there are many there. We need to worry more about our Vulnerability, and keep America safe. Can't do that if most of our Military are fighting so far away. And there's no end in site. Rumsfeld won't let our Military do their jobs. If he would?, maybe this thing would be over. My question to you Sir is this; "What did Iraq do, from "True Facts", not yet given, that made us invade them? Dictatorship? What about China, N.Korea, Vietnam, other Nation's, including Russia. Why don't we invade them? Or, it could come down to an invasion of Iran. This is my "doubt's" about all fairness as to why we invaded Iraq. Afgan? Yes, that's where ol' Ben Ladin is, they think. And terrorist are coming from there. Iran, Syria, who know's where else. I don't have enough "TRUTH" to where I can support our Gov't's actions. The price of a life is not valued it seems, except in retoric. Which is nothing but propagand. I respect your view's, and I just hope some day, we will be United, the American people aren't as ignorant as our Leader's think they are. God Bless, Semper-fi. P.S.I support our troops 100%, I just don't support the reason.

[jgorosco]

I never questioned anyone's doubts on who supports our troops and who doesn't. But to be fair our Gov't has on a constant basis lied to the American people in one way or another. Maybe you can view going to war with Iraq as a strategic maneuvar(sp) to be ready for Iran. I just feel if you want the Gov't to tell you the truth then please don't hold your breath. I myself don't like where our gov't is taking us but what can you do? The only thing that can be done is to vote everyone that holds a seat in office out and try and start fresh. If I remember correctly ther was an Iraqi general that said saddam did get rid of all wmd's to Syria or wrote a book but I never really heard anything after that. Don't know how true it is but since when does the media tell the truth? All I am saying is that when we fight amongst each other about who has the better ideas to run our Country, the minute we stop fighting is the minute we are being run by someone else; i.e. Illegal Immigrants, Ports owned by Other Countries, the list can go on and on.

again my 2 cents and you know the rest!!

[redneck13]

:beer: :flag: Very well put Sir...I'll toast one for ya. I agree wholeheartedly.
The current headline from our President is, "I'LL BE THE DECIDER." Mighty strong words, sounds more like he wants to be what he just ousted. That's my other 2cents worth, and yes, we need to pull together, and be one. If the Marine Corps rant this Country, I think it might be a better place. SF

[jgorosco]

My glass is up and ready to be put to rest...ready? Drink!!

[lovdog]

Jason: I hear what you are saying and respect your viewpoint and appreciate the response - I was beginning to wonder if anyone was listening to what Wind had to say when he started this thread? He is a year younger than I but he made it to the war a year earlier! The war that we know is the one that years later as documents became declassified and the truths finally came out - we then realized just how "war works" and how we as part of the military were used as the pawns in a chess game. We trusted our leaders too, thought that they would not send us into harms way without a valid reason. And, what do a couple of 19 year old Marines know about greed, corruption, power and the want of money? Why on earth would businesses and individuals on both sides intentionally profit from our war effort - and did not even care if the war continued forever - as long as the profit was there. President Johnson knew the futility of the war at the time - and decided not to seek another term because of it! Even when Nixon took the military occupation up to 500,000 men to make a stand - even he succumbed to a winless situation. Yes, we did our duty - I even went back for another tour as did alot of Marines. We tried to make a difference, but the political game of: pull back across the DMZ and 6 months later we are going north again!! We just pray that someone can make up their mind - anyone?? If we can't fight this war to win - what in the world are we doing here? This is the legacy that we leave to you that follow - learn from the mistakes of our time. It is your duty to question the leadership of our Country when so much is at stake - because they are "just men" like you and I and make mistakes just like all of us do.
And, if the President and Congress vote to go to war - if they want us to give up our best and keep up the good fight - you better have a d*mn good reason for doing so and only, "only" when all other avenues of reasoning have been exhausted, because war is finality!!
Peace! Sure, I know I got a little carried away - he*ls bells, some of us can't even get along with our next door neighbor - let alone someone 10,000 miles away that speaks another language and hates our guts!!
Stay strong as a Country? Sure, I'm all for that. Don't let anyone walk all over ya? You betcha!!
But, do not forget that our leadership also brought us to this point where we are now. The FBI, CIA , Defense Department, USIA and others are responsible for keeping this country safe from invaders - we trusted them also. How could the "elite" of our security and intelligence forces allow this to happen? Even the documents that warned us of what was to come? Did someone just use them to clean the mud off their boots?? If they had paid attention to the minefield, we wouldn't be having this conversation about Iraq.
Seems to me - about 65 years ago that a bunch of Japanese planes came soaring over the coast of Hawaii - remember that one from the History books? Sometimes even a mule - ya gotta hit between the eyes with a 2 by 4 so they will pay attention - ya think we'd learn? Our military left us their legacy from the start of WWII also.
Looking from the outside in - it appears that Iraq is not much different than our war - got similar problems facing our Military. Viet Nam - we had two enemies - the NVA & Viet Cong - in Iraq, you have four - the insurgents from the outside and the 3 warring factions inside jockeying for position - and the US forces are right in the middle. Can't tell the good guys from the bad guys without a scorecard - I know the feeling. If they shoot first - those are the bad guys!! Confused? Well, in my case, I stay confused all the time, comes with age!!
My older brother was in Lebanon with the 82nd Airborne in the 50's - we had trouble with the Middle East way back then. His son was in the Navy for 11 years - an Ensign. My son - he's with the Air Force Security Forces 7 years, and myself, I was part of the best. I guess you could say - its a military family.
All I know is I'd like to be a fly on the wall at the Bush's ranch before the war started - I bet that dinner conversation was stimulating!! Maybe I listen to Paul Harvey too much because now - I want to hear = the Rest of the Story!! I'm all ears.Have a nice day, my friend.SF

[hrscowboy]

You all can say all you want, my 2 cents on this is that We need a sec of defense that is what I will refer too as Boots on the ground. another words we should have a Combat Veteran to fill this slot at all times, a veteran that has been there and done that... Not a dang Navy Veteran that has never had his boots on the ground and fought for anything. Enuff said

[jgorosco]

Lovdog just to clarify... I meant no disrespect...I know, I don't know where you came from until I walked a mile in your shoes. Again no disrespect. I just feel a certain way because I am sick and tired of people's total lack of disrespect towards our Govt'. True question they way govt handles things but to a point to were it doesn't show weakness to other countries.

Cowboy...once again I agree with you!!

[LivinSoFree]

Here's the thing- coming at this from a practical, political standpoint, it makes a hell of a statement that individuals with stars on their shoulders are willing to come out in the open with statements like those that have been made recently. This isn't some short-timer 4-year Lance Coolie with a high school diploma, these are educated general officers with decades of military experience, tours in theatre, and advanced degrees, who have thought this through and are fully aware of the consequences of their speaking out. The general officer ranks are subject to a great deal of politicking, and by making these statements, they've knowingly put their careers in jeopardy. The fact that they did it anyway should be a red flag telling us all that there's something to this.

[redneck13]

:mad: :evilgrin: I'm very impressed by the post/replies here. Yet I stand firm on what I've said. As well as Cowboy.....And the latest from General's who were in the know but couldn't speak out. King George's rating's are lower than a snake's belly. He's the "DECIDER?" I don't care how they spin it from Washington, the press, other's.....When what six General's finally get away from the political scene, they get to speak out and tell the truth. Just as did Gen. Westmoreland when Oz was in it's last day's. In Fact Westmoreland wanted to resign, after the seize of Kaison. He knew, couldn't speak though the truth. It's sad to listen to such "arrogance", and "I'M THE BOSS, I'M THE DECIDER", type attitude's about a war, that "Truth hasn't prevailed." As lovdog said, it took many many years before the truth finally came out about Nam AKA OZ. When you get a chance, watch the Military Channel they have so many thing's I've learned about my war. Because now, the truth can be told. There's something amiss, when this many General's, say, Rummy Dummy, just ain't carryin' a full load. Sure King George is going to back him. You can't have "Civilian's" calling the shot's. That's why the General's of today, including our Commandant, I believe now, Chief of the Pentagon, will someday be able to tell their story, and it will not be like we're hearing today.
Then these bonehead's, think they're going to stop "Terrorism" by what, invading Iran? Hell fire, Saudi Arabia has terrorist's training in Saudi, but Our Leader's don't say S****about it? Why? I'm Green thru and thru. Yet I have the right to know as a Citizen of this Country, the damn truth!!! If Nixon, would've went on TV and told the American people what he did? I'll bet you, he would've remained in office. Also, why is it that so many, even King Georges' own party, are wanting to sensure him? Too many if's and's, butt's, and to much "I'M THE BOSS" B.S. for me. SF to us all.