A quest for information has begun...

[quillhill]

Sometime about six years ago I found out that my grandfather served in the United States Marine Corps during World War II. I never knew my grandfather, Hugh Benson Church, and he died May 9, 1999. I was 21. He and my grandmother were married 14 years and were divorced long before I came along. He is now buried at Eagle Point National Cemetery in Medford, Oregon.
During the past few months as I've learned about the Marine Corps from my experience with LCpl Seeley and the other Marines I've met here and in the real world through him, I've felt inspired to learn more about his service.
Last night I got a serious start to my quest. First, I dug up the geneology book my grandmother sent me last year. I remember it had a little bit of information about Hugh. When I found the paragraph about him, even the little pieces of info were very illuminating. Because I've been reading this site since December, I've come to understand quite a bit.
This little paragraph said he was born in Argenta, AR, on Dec. 2, 1913. He married my grandmother on 14 July 1944. He was 31 and she was a few months shy of her 19th birthday. He was actually coming to the end of his time with the Corps, I think. The blurb says he served eight years in the Marine Corps and attained the rank of Sergeant. He was at Iwo Jima in March 1945 when my Aunt Carol was born.
So, after I sent those photos of Seeley to Shaffer, I called my mom and told her I wanted to see if I could find out more information. I had found the National Archives web site and realized she could request his service records being his next of kin.
We walked through the process together and got the records request put through. I'll have her sign and send off the authorization paperwork when she comes to have lunch with me on Sunday. It looks like they'll send her his DD 214 paperwork, separation from service, I think is what they're also called.
My mom also told me that my grandmother said Sgt. Church was a machine gunner on an aircraft carrier during the Korean conflict. Now, until I get his records, I can't verify that, but if he was a machine gunner on an aircraft carrier, does anyone know what MOS he would have been?

I also have a handful of photos of him in uniform from 1944, I think, and I have to assume they were taken before he deployed to the Pacific theater. We've sent out digital copies to be restored, but if anyone wants to see them, I'll post them once I get them. It may be a few weeks.

I've always been proud of the fact that he served in the Marine Corps during WWII. And I utterly regret I never had a chance to learn about my grandfather's service from him firsthand.

If anyone has any other suggestions or advice on how to find out more about my grandfather, that would be awesome. More than anything I just wanted to share my excitement about my quest for information with people who understand what it means to be a Marine.

[Marine84]

I lost an uncle in Vietnam in 69 (I was 8) - when I started looking for folks that might have known him I just started posting messages on Vets sites (any and all that I could find). It took about a year and a 1/2 and I get home from work one day and a guy in CA (that was with my uncle when he was wounded) sent me an email with a picture of him and my uncle. That was about 5 or 6 years ago now and since then his unit invites me to their reunions evry other year. It's awesome!

Keep trying and good luck. Since he was a Marine he left an impression on somebody somewhere so..................it may take a while but don't give up.

[outlaw3179]

Quilhill unfortunatley I have no information to give to you but I do want to tell you that I think very highly of you. I think it is a gret thing that youre doing to try to honor you grandfathers memory . Semper Fi!

[quillhill]

outlaw, coming from you sir, that is a high compliment ... I think this will be good for my mom and for our relationship, too, because she doesn't know much more about his service than I do. It'll be nice to go on this quest together.
Marine84, I will definitely try the vet's site route. Seeley actually pointed me to one last week that really got this ball rolling. It allows you to sign up if you're a Marine or family member of a Marine. Then you can create a whole memorial profile for the Marine family member if he is deceased. That is just so cool. He gave eight years of his life to serve his country during a turbulent, significant period of history. He deserves to be remembered for that.

I wonder how long it will take to get his DD 214 papers?

I know I have a photo of his gravestone at Eagle Point. I'll have to find it and add it to my member's photo gallery.

This site is just a revelation for me.

[GySgtRet]

I know that you are a person of integrity because of the way you handled LCpl Seeley's story you made a promise and you kept it. Now your are going to top that excellent deed and honor your grandfather, also a Marine. Ma'am I wish you and your mother the best of luck in your search.

Respectfully,
GySgtRet

[quillhill]

To earn the respect of Marines is truly an honor. I appreciate the support. I'd like to think that not only did I get my freckles, ornery wavy hair and stunning good looks from my grandfather, but maybe some of his Marine Corps integrity, as well.
I can't wait to find out all about my grandfather's service.

What kind of information does a DD 214 include?

[GySgtRet]

The DD214 will have his dates of active service, decorations, rifle and pistol qualifications, his entry to the Marine Corps either recruiting station or city and state called home of record, his...

[captken]

Keep us posted, Kris, and best of luck. For the rest of us, this should serve as a reminder that we need to do more to connect with the younger generations coming behind us. Be sure your family knows where your photos are. Write, or better yet, record your military experiences. Let them know how you feel about being a Marine. It good for them and it'll be good for you, too.

Word of advice to you, Kris...Be REAL careful about telling these Marines that you're good looking. Of course we Sailors are perfect gentlemen!

(Oh man I'm gonna get killed for that one!)

[quillhill]

Ed, thanks for that information. I'd really like to know what his MOS was and it'd be great to find out when and where he served. I would guess that during eight years, he could have gone a bunch of different places, but the only one I know about is Iwo Jima. I understand that was a really significant battle and I'm proud of the fact that he was there, helping to win the war.
I understand that though he was born in Arkansas, but from what I can tell, he grew up in Minnesota somewhere. Does that mean he would have gone to recruit training at Parris Island? I know back then, it was only six weeks long, but I bet it was just as hard. ;)
I look forward to getting the DD214. I don't know how long it will take ... it'll probably show up while I'm out of the country next month. I'm going to scan in the photos I have of my grandfather tonight.
Then, CaptKen, you can see I look just like my grandfather ... oh, and don't worry about the Marines around here. I'm taken. Been married almost six years now. I told my husband he should join up, what with his degree and all, he could be an officer. I joked with him that he could go from being a middle manager in the private sector to a middle manager in the military. It didn't seem to persuade him. LOL

[GySgtRet]

That is a tossup between depots. I wish that I could remember the name of it but there was a recruit depot other than San Diego and Parris Island. I know that it was in California but I can't remember where or what the name of it was. Maybe an older salt other than yours truly knows that answer. I hope that it won't take long most records are microfithed and if the information is correct that you gave the people at archives it shouldn't take more than a couple of months.

Keep in touch I always look forward to hearing from you especially the article in January on LCpl Seeley. Your efforts are very much appreciated.

[Ed Palmer]

That is a tossup between depots. I wish that I could remember the name of it but there was a recruit depot other than San Diego and Parris Island. I know that it was in California but I can't remember where or what the name of it was.

Ed
you are probably thinking of camp Mathews where the rifle range use to be just north of San Diego,
They moved it to Camp Pendleton in the late 60,s
The only other boot camp i can think of is Monford Point just south of LeJuneThat was the Boot Camp For Coloreds ,
And now that I think of you might be right(heaven forbid) I think that they had some sort of training up at Treasure Island back in the 40,s dont know if was a boot camp or for some sort of advance training.

[quillhill]

Ed,

I'm pretty confident in the information I was given. My grandmother has been big on the geneology thing for about a decade now and is meticulous and detailed about her research, even if Hugh was a long-gone ex. Heh. I haven't been able to get in touch with her for some time, but there were only two pieces of info I didn't have: his social security number and um, some other military service related number, which I bet even Grannie wouldn't have.
A couple of months isn't too bad. It would be better if it came after I get back from Germany rather than before unless I could get it like, oh by the end of next week. And that is a fantasy, I'm sure. :)
But, knowing my luck, it will arrive the day after I leave for Frankfurt.
Well, ultimately, the DD 214 will tell us where my grandfather went to recruit training. I'm guessing it was sometime between 1938 and 1939. I suppose in the meantime I can do some research on the topic.

[GySgtRet]

Your a genious or at least close to it...!!! Isn't that where Edsion Range is now by any chance? Yeah I remember something about Treasure Island too, but I wasn't sure. There has got to be somebody else out there. Come out come out wherever you are.

Semper Fi Ed

[quillhill]

Okay, I'm confused. When I looked up the info on the Eagle Point National Cemetery Web site, it shows that my grandfather was an E-5 at time of discharge. But, I was looking at the photos taken of...

[Stanley Brother]

Kris,
Just to help in those days E-5 was a Staff Sgt. You are right ranks did change around the middle 1950's I beleive. Do you know what his outfit was? This would be a big help.

Best to you on your search and God Bless you.

Semper Fi,
Stan

[quillhill]

I haven't found out what unit he was with, but I'm hoping I might be able to figure it out. He had a patch on his uniform that had a spade on it plus a number on each side of the spade. It was above his rank insignia.
If I can't figure it out based on that clue, I'm sure the DD 214 will be more exact.
Okay, so he was an E-5, but a Staff Sgt. That's good to know. I'm continuing to look. I'll post if I find out more soon.

[quillhill]

I got this e-mail on Friday, April 21. Hopefully this means I'll get the records before I leave for Germany at the end of next month. Then, that should really get me moving forward.

"Thank you for submitting a request to the National Personnel Records Center.

We have received your signature authorization for request number 1-1521759501.

The majority of these types of requests are serviced in 21 days or less. We
service approximately 20,000 requests each week and are working earnestly and
successfully at reducing our response time. Our goal is to reduce our response
time on these types of requests to ten days or less.

Thank you."

[Stanley Brother]

I hope you get the information before you leave. Just keep praying you can rest assure that all of those who read your request are with you 100%. Marines are all family like no other branch of the service.
God Bless you and Semper Fidelis.

Stan

[quillhill]

Thanks StanleyBrother. I'm excited to learn what I can from the paperwork. I'll only be out of the country for 10 days, 14 at most. The more I learn about the Corps, the more I admire my grandfather for giving eight years to the Marines.
Once I get the info, I'll post. I hope "within 21 days" is true! *crosses fingers*

[quillhill]

I don't have any info on units or billets. <br />
<br />
It says rank, PL/SGT. What's that mean? <br />
He did go to recruit training in San Diego and left the service on April 2, 1946. <br />
Org at separation: 1st Sept...

[GySgtRet]

Org at separation: 1st Sept Co ... what's that mean? This indicates to me that he was attached to the 1st Marine Division Seperations Company, Camp Pendelton California. Here is the link to that...

[quillhill]

OMG. That's awesome. Off to read those links! Yay yay yay Ed!

[GySgtRet]

Now your like a kid in a candy store. You are Welcome. We have to talk so time on the phone I can call you no problem, of course I would need your number. You sound atleast on the website of somebody with integrity and principles.

[quillhill]

Yeah. I'll send you my cell number in a PM. I still don't know when we're leaving for Germany. My stupid brother in law in the Air Force and...ugh. Thank goodness for my grandfather ... you know he's up there in heaven patrolling the streets like a good Marine M.P. ;)

[GySgtRet]

Sounds good. I am glad that you are enjoying the read. Have fun in Germany. I'll be looking forward to talking to you.

[Old Marine]

When I went through Boot Camp at MCRD, SD, everyone made the 10 mile hike to Camp Matthews for the Rifle Range. They finally did away with Camp Matthews when it got in the way of the freeways they we installing. Used to be you could drive up the 5 freeway north and see the remnants of the butts. This was when you could get the M1 thumb, but that's another story.

[quillhill]

It looks like I'll have to make another request to get the records describing what units he was with ... but I'm making an educated guess that he served in the 5th Marine Division from 1944-1946.
My mom says my grandmother told her stories about Hugh serving on an aircraft carrier. So, Sea School explains that.

I'll get my hands on the restored photos of him today ... but that patch above his rank insignia looks like the one for the 5th Marine Division.

[quillhill]

cdores, wow that's lots of very interesting information ... I'm pretty sure he was based out of Camp Pendleton for that period I mentioned. I didn't have his SSN when I initially made the request,...

[dscusmc]

Sir (cdores), that's interesting about the shoulder patches. Your post mentioned leatherneck magazine, so I ran a search in the archives of the Marine Corps Gazette. I did find a photo of Marine Corps patches. Here is an excerpt from one article. (Bittner, D.F., No Title, Marine Corps Gazette, November 1980, pg 76.)

I won't repost the article because of the copyright, but these were the major points on Marine Corps patches:

-Basic Marine Corps policy has generally been that Marines identify themselves as members of the Corps and not develop distinctive associations with its subordinate organizations.

-On a number of occassions conditions forced a temporary change in policy. In WWI, Marines in Europe wore patches; the Indianhead blaze of the 2d ID and one for the 5th Marine Brigade in 1919.

-During WWII, a total of 33 shoulder sleeve insignia were authorized for wear on the Marine uniform. As of 1 August 1945, these were the patches of the 6 infantry divisions; five for 4 of the aircraft wings and HQ Aircraft FMF Pacific; 6 for the 1st Amphibious Corps and its battalions; 9 for HQ FMF Pacific; 4 for defense batallions; one for 3d Amphibious Corps; 1 for 5th Amphibious Corps; and one for ship detachments.

-Two Commandants, Gens Holcomb and Gates, tried to adhere to the policy of not wearing patches. They saw the patches as temporary and to be removed as soon as possible.

-"Thus Letter of Instruction No. 1499 of 23 September 1947 rescinded the authorization for the wearing of distinctive shoulder sleeve insignia after 1 January 1948."

Good luck with your search quillhill.

5th MARDIV Patch
4316

[dscusmc]

Here's a better picture of the patch. If you can read the numbers on the patch, it might help identify the unit better.

Apparently, 5th Marine Division was activated on 21 January 1944. It included the 26th, 27th, and 28th Marine Infantry Regiments and the 13th Artillery Regiment. It was a squad of the 28th Marine Infantry Regiment that raised the flag Suribachi).After the surrender, 5th MARDIV served in Japan on occupation duty.

They had a pretty amazing history.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._5th_Marine_Division
http://hqinet001.hqmc.usmc.mil/HD/Historical/Frequently_Requested/BattleHonors_6Mar_WWII.htm

4317

[quillhill]

Yeah, the patch looks, from best I can tell in the sepia tone photo, like that. The photo was taken in March 1944. I'm going to scan them in, then post them in my gallery.
I think it's not numbers in the corners, but the tops of the V, which makes total sense now.

The only thing that bugs me about the photos is I have no idea what are in his ribbon bar. He has three ribbons and just one bar above the pocket, then his rifle and pistol badges.

Did they give out recruit training ribbons back then like they do now?

I'm gunna scan in the photos in a few. See what all we can make from. Oh, and I'll load a photo of me, too, for comparison's sake. ;)

[quillhill]

Well, wait, now, upon another, much closer inspection, I think that's actually the 4th MARDIV insignia. Wow, it's amazing what a difference the photo restoration makes. It's still a bit blurry ... sigh, I can't get my darn scanner to work. I'll take the photos with me to my in-law's house and get them scanned in there. Argh!

Figures, the minute I'm sure of something, I end up being wrong.

[quillhill]

Update:
I've got the three restored photos of my grandfather posted in my gallery. MillRat says he, too, believes the patch shows the 4th MARDIV symbol. That helps quite a bit. If anyone else wishes to look and offer opinions, you're welcome. I'm still wondering what ribbons he had ... oh and what is the uniform he's wearing called?

Stupid question ahead: Did Marines of the WWII era get dress blues as part of their uniform issue or were they required to maintain a set? I ask because I want to e-mail my grandmother and see if she has any other photos of Hugh that she might be willing to part with.

And I sent off the other form, the SF 180, I believe it's called, to the National Archives Military Personnel Records folks to see if I could obtain additional information from his service record. I did that about two weeks ago. I suspect that will take a bit longer to get back than his separation of service papers did.

[GySgtRet]

I cannot tell which patch it is for sure. I am hoping that your grandmother has a better picture of your grandfather. Well, you will be leaving soon for Germany and hopefully your package will arrive the day before you leave so that you can take a good look while you are there and let us all know.

Good luck...

[quillhill]

Wahooo!

I just got a phone call from a nice guy named Kevin at the National Archives. He can't release the records to me, but if I fax him a piece of paper with my mom's name, signature and saying she's his next of kin (daughter) he can release the records! He found the entire service record, said he had it right in front of him when we talked.
OMG! I could have his records next week! This is so, so, awesome!

I'm doing a little dance right now. Boy, I needed this bit of good -- no great! -- news. I dropped my almost new, $300 cell phone in the toilet yesterday and I don't think it's going to dry out and come back to life. But this, wow, it really puts things in perspective.

I can't wait to get this information and share it all with you folks.

[Zulu 36]

Stupid question ahead: Did Marines of the WWII era get dress blues as part of their uniform issue or were they required to maintain a set? I ask because I want to e-mail my grandmother and see if she has any other photos of Hugh that she might be willing to part with.


I realize this is a bit late, but according to a conversation I had with my father, as a rule Marines were not issued Blues during WWII. He had a photo of himself in Blues which prompted my question. He was issued Blues when he was assigned to Marine Barracks Indian Head, MD after returning to the States from combat (and getting out of the hospital).

Sadly, this was one of the last Marine Corps related conversations I had with my father prior to his death. I was home on boot camp leave and he had been teasing me about my uniforms being made from "officer's material."

BTW. Congrats on hitting the paydirt on the SRB. Hopefully you will learn a lot of good things.

[Marine84]

I know that feeling quillhill - the first message I got had a pic of my Uncle in it with this guy (so that I would know he wasn't bsing me) and the only thing I could do was cry, shake like a leaf and say "OH MY GOD" for 30 minutes (yes, I'm old enough to remember Vietnam ya'll).

Outstanding! I'm glad the ball is rolling faster for you now!

[GySgtRet]

What could anybody say but OUTSTANDING...!!!!

I am so glad that your leads have harvested the information. Yes please let us know what it all means when you get it...



:thumbup: :yes: :banana:

[Mike McIntyre]

Kris: <br />
&lt;?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = &quot;urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office&quot; /&gt;&lt;o:p&gt; &lt;/o:p&gt; <br />
My father was discharged in 1946 from &lt;?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns =...

[quillhill]

I'll type more later ... got date night with the hubby here. I am in a damn good mood right now. I'm hoping to talk to my mom tonight and get the fax out tomorrow to Kevin.

Wow, so much more info! Zulu, no, it's not too late to post an answer to that question. I'm still learning about my grandfather's service, so the timing is good with today's call.

Thanks for the responses everyone ... and my phone works, too! Yay! I didn't kill my phone! What a wonderful day.

It is going to be brilliant to find out more about my grandfather's service.

I will post more once the records arrive.

[thomas bruce]

I've read through your posts and good luck finding the info your looking for.
Here's my 2 cents worth:

To my knowledge, dress blues were issued to enlisted marines when there duty service required them. When I was assigned barracks duty we were issued dress blues. My dad served in Korea (1st Recon Co 51-52) and said the same was true back then. Barracks duty , sea service, and I'm sure some other duties required them as well. They cost about $400 or so back in the early 80's.

Semper Fi,
T.J.
:iwo:

[quillhill]

Quick update. I've got my mom's signature on a piece of paper as instructed by the gentleman from the National Archives. I will fax it tomorrow, as he requested. I'll let you guys know if I get a response from him tomorrow.

Otherwise, now we begin the waiting and running home daily to check the mail for my grandfather's records. My mom told me today that she never heard anything about his time in the Corps from him, just second-hand from her mother. So, this will be a great way for her to learn more about the good things he did with his life as a Marine.

[quillhill]

It's here. A fat packet full of papers that are my grandfather's records. So, initial impressions are he enlisted on April 20, 1938 and was discharged in 1946. An eight-year Marine. He had...

[GySgtRet]

If you want to scan them into the site please take out his social security number and anything that would be able to make anything out to fraud. I am glad to see that he was a Parris Island Marine of course.

:banana: :yes:

[quillhill]

It is great news. I am having a good ole time reading this.

Let's see. Special military qualifications (this is in his second service book, started in 1942, upon re-enlistment):
Issued MC Drivers Permit 4 Apr 1944 "Heavy"
Anti tank Gun Crewman (610) Prim
Military Policeman (677) Sec
Gunnery Instructor (938)

Or this:
Participated in the initial occupation of Kyushu Island, Japan; landed at Sasebo, Japan, on 22 September, 1945

Or this:
Embarked aboard USS Darke (APA 159) on 4 Jan 45 and sailed on (obscured) Hawaii, T.H., Arrived and disembarked at Iwo Jima, Volcano Islands, on 19 Feb 45. (signed by a personnel officer in the 26th Marines)

Ooooh. There's a picture of him, too, from 1938! It must have been taken while at recruit training.

Eeeee! This is so cool.

[quillhill]

OK. I am going to scan in some of the documents for help deciphering what some of it means. I will post that up hopefully tonight or tomorrow night. My mom was very happy to get his records and she loved the picture.

I'm wondering, though. I'd like to get replica dog tags made. Can anyone suggest a place to do that? Feel free to PM me if you like. I'm also thinking about doing a tribute tattoo for him...but that's a half-formed idea at this stage. Heh.

This has been a truly rewarding experience and I appreciate all the feedback and input I've gotten here. Thanks all. :)