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MillRatUSMC
04-13-06, 01:46 PM
Why now? Recent events and rumors make this a necessity...

Loyalty Versus Honesty
Commentary

Critical Dilemma -- Loyalty Versus Honesty

General Joseph P. Hoar, U.S. Marine Corps (Retired)
Proceedings, January 2005

The major conflict in the boardrooms of America is caused by the clash between loyalty and honesty. This was the issue I discussed with a friend as we shared pre-dinner drinks this past July—and his succinct appraisal of the state of American business resonated with me.

In fact, the tension between honesty and loyalty extends far beyond the business community and is raging in the U.S. government. An article in the The New York Times of 3 October 2004 described how uncertainty and disbelief about the acquisition of an Iraqi nuclear capability were played in such a way that the Vice President, the Secretary of State, and the National Security Advisor were able to assert publicly that an aggressive nuclear program was being pursued actively—when none apparently existed. Where were the Directors of the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) and the Defense Intelligence Agency when the State Department intelligence office cautioned that the facts did not support this view?

Honesty has been a casualty in the past two years as the U.S. government made major errors planning and conducting the war in Iraq. Moreover, no one has been held accountable and there has been no acknowledgement of failure. President George W. Bush’s characterization of the “catastrophic success”—aside from being an oxymoron—is a poor alibi for mismanagement of reconstruction.

During the past two years, while traveling in the Middle East and visiting in Washington, I listened to the steady drumbeats of retired and active duty flag and general officers, foreign service officers, civil servants, and officials of friendly Middle Eastern governments: stories of spin and information suppressed, senior leaders enunciating desired goals and then tasking subordinates with finding facts to confirm those goals, promotion denied a CIA operative who did not come up with the “right answer” regarding Iraq’s nuclear program, and offers of assistance in the search for peace and stability rebuffed because they came from “terrorist” or “axis of evil” states. Investigative journalists consistently uncover themes of bad news repressed by the government, which often uses security classification as the means of concealing embarrassing information.

No one is naďve enough to believe this kind of behavior is new to Washington. But why should many military and civilian officials continue to favor loyalty over integrity? Arguments for loyalty in some cases are those of political affiliation and friendship. Further, disloyalty might well impede career advancement, retirement plans, home mortgages, and tuition for the kids. Finally, there is the argument that “I can do more to fight this kind of behavior inside the government than I can by resigning or going public.”

The latter view was exemplified in 1971, when former Chief of Staff of the Army General Harold K. Johnson spoke to the student body of the Marine Corps Command and Staff College in an atmosphere of nonattribution. After some 40 minutes of describing the sad state of affairs related to the Vietnam War, an Army major rose to ask him why, given the unsavory situation in 1964-68, he did not resign. General Johnson responded to the effect that he could better deal with the problem inside the government than out. Years later, he regretted his failure to resign his post in protest.

In the U.S. military services, loyalty and honesty—often described as integrity—are highly prized virtues. They rank right behind courage as prized characteristics of an officer. Although there is perpetual friction and competition between them, we need go no farther than the oath taken by all military officers: “I solemnly swear that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic . . .” This provides the necessary direction as to where our primary loyalties should lie—to the Constitution, not to our commanders. As a matter of custom in the Marine Corps, officer promotion ceremonies include a renewal of that oath to underscore at each promotion that there are new opportunities to contribute. Equally important, it reminds officers their overriding fealty is to the nation.

Senior military commanders are most likely to face this dilemma. Because their responses are key to high-level policy decisions, they must realize that weighing honesty against loyalty is an abiding responsibility. When the history of the Iraq war is written, we can be sure that historians, journalists, and government officials will connect the dots dividing those who acted out of honesty and those who acted out of loyalty.

Retired Marine General Hoar, a former commander-in-chief of U.S. Central Command, heads J.P. Hoar and Associates, a consulting firm. He is a member of several boards, including that of the Center of Naval Analyses.

Osotogary
04-13-06, 03:10 PM
Thanks, Ricardo, for bringing this thread to the forefront.
Although I do not have facts and figures in front to validate anything that I will say...I'll just say this; it sure seems like everybody is coming out of the wood work now-a-days to add their two cents, twenty-five cents, whatever, to the fray; the perverbial hindsight factor, if you will. "When the history of the Iraq war is written, we can be sure that historians, journalists, and government officials will connect the dots dividing those who acted out of honesty and those who acted out of loyalty."
I'm really not that interested in the after the fact connecting of the dots by historians; not now while there are other more pressing concerns like the welfare of our Armed Forces and some stand out and poke me in the eye domestic issues.
I've got this feeling, and I don't know why, that the President is a good and decent man but he just seems to be mislead, occasionally, by his advisors both politically and militarily (and who knows what individual or group agendas those folks are following).
I kinda wish that the President wouldn't read from a script all the time. Although he stumbles every now and then I need to have him look me in the eye and say what needs to be said. I need to feel that the sacrifices of our young men and women are not in vain. All of this bickering has got to stop. We could be whining ourselves to death and I don't want to hear about that...after the fact.
Geez, I just realized that just like everybody else, I just came out of the wood work. May God-Bless our Troops.

yellowwing
06-01-06, 04:49 PM
This is as pertinent as ever. Integrity is being attacked ever day. Our Marine Corps character sees us through the day. We hold each other accountable and expect even more of ourselves.

Telling the truth should not be labeled as traitorous. Rep. John Murtha met with the Commandant and got the scoop that there was a "very serious incident (http://thinkprogress.org/2006/05/30/murtha-haditha/)" at Haditha. Serious enough for the Comandant to drop what he was doing and proceed directly to the front lines.

The Time Magazine article (http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1198892-1,00.html) on Haditha really is thorough and well documented.

Rep John Kline, a Republican and Marine Corps Veteran, also echos the same after being briefed by the Marine Corps.

If you read ALL of what these both of these Marines~Congressmen have said, you'll find that they go on to address the underlying factor of 3/1 Kilo Company's action at Haditha.

There's not enough boots on the ground to adequately protect our Marines. We did a tremendous job in clearing out Fallujah. Why the hell have we not done the same for Ramadi and Haditha?

Why hasn't Rumsfeld and Company cut the orders to clear these deadly hotspots? This is what we do. Fallujah was a tough fight but our Marines got the job done.

Its not the media or Murtha putting our Marines in a tough spot. And its not unpatriotic and traitorous to tell the truth.

USMC-FO
06-01-06, 07:56 PM
Terrific posts here...My sense in this is that loyalty and honesty are not mutually exclusive.... as apparently disheartening as the events in Iraq seem likely to play out for all of us in the near term I am taking some solice in the fact that honesty will prevail out of an overwelming loyalty among most Marines. It won't be fun or pretty and will leave all of us, I think, a bit pained in the process.

I am not personnally pleased with the way Mr Murtha is playing this currently, but I am inclined to believe he is doing it out of loyalty to the Corps and his personal sense of right and wrong. I can cut him some slack on that basis alone.

This seems to a good place to post this up as some of the other commentary in other parts of this site are just to over the top for me. The right wing press and the radio voices--most of whom I stongly suspect have never heard a shot zip past their entitled asses under any circumstances--are just too frothy and rabid for my tastes. I have no love either for the left wing zealots either. I wanted to reach through the net and strangle "Pee-aire" who's article came up on another post on this site.

We'd all do well to understand that "Semper Fi" does not mean you lock step into an intellectual corner.

Semper Fi !!

marinegreen
06-01-06, 08:32 PM
Today while sitting at the VA Hosp I read a article about the young man/MARINE who was blown to pieces by an IED which lead to the civilians being killed, this article was about this young troops uncled who said that MARINES from his nephews squad came under fire fron the sunnis who were using these said civilians as shields, granted they were caught in a bad situation but if this is the case what the hell were our boys suppose to do, throw rocks at them. War is hell and sometimes things do go wrong but I kinda agree with the uncle, he believes these young men just didnt kill them cuz they were there.What really pi**ed me off was hearing some higher brass say this could be the real killer of this war, GIVE ME A FUQING BREAK....... We are in a civil war and shouldnt be there, mission was accomplished way back but as long as bush/cheney are making haliburton $$$ which makes them $$ in return we'll be there until these maggots are voted out.What the press doesnt imform us is if these troops are on there 2nd or 3rd tour,that might play a roll in this, these deferred coward politicians that have never been in uniform need to shut the hell up and as far as rumsfeld goes, he's a complete idiot. Sorry brothers and sisters but this is my opinion as I'm sure theres diehard bush followers.Civilians are up in arms saying vile crap about the MARINES and I just want to smack the stupid outta them:mad: they dont realize that its the MARINES who go in 1st.

Phantom Blooper
06-01-06, 10:28 PM
<TABLE id=INCREDIMAINTABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=2 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD id=INCREDITEXTREGION style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; CURSOR: auto; FONT-FAMILY: Arial" width="100%">I don't know why the media is making such a big deal over Bush having trouble with his Generals.
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Clinton had trouble with his privates.





:banana: :bunny: :yes:

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Smokey2074
06-02-06, 02:24 PM
The other day, pResident bush told graduates of one of the military academies (whichever one it was this year) that the war in Iraq would end 'on their watch'. What a slap in the face for those...

mlurtsema
06-02-06, 09:25 PM
I think anyone who has been alive for more than a few years understands the tug between loyalty and honesty. It plays out in board rooms and businesses, and it plays out on the battlefield and in politics. To remain honest and loyal requires a great deal of discipline and clear thinking.

Is it either honest or loyal to be second guessing the actions of Marine's we have put in harms way? America is such a fickle place, when we start to beat the war drum, when we go to war, everybody cheers it on -- the minute people start getting killed and the minute the American people start hearing about all the horrible **** that happens when people are f***ing each other up, they want to put you in jail for doing the job you were training and sent to do.

It would take a great deal of really strong evidence to ever convince me that my brother Marines did anything wrong out there. Think about it, it appears they probably killed women and young children. That happens in war, all the time. They will live with that. But to assert that they were out of control and committed murder. Prove it!

skong222
06-03-06, 08:24 PM
never having been in combat I wont's even guess. iF T

skong222
06-03-06, 08:40 PM
if rhe question is one of honesty i choose to believe that the marine in the middle of the situation will have the willingness to do whatever they have to to [rotect their brothers and sisters and get back.

OLE SARG
06-03-06, 09:41 PM
All I can say is ms murtha and all the other blowhard politicians should at least wait until ALL THE FACTS are in before they start shooting off their two-sided mouths!!!!! I thought in AMERICA YOU WERE INNOCENT UNTIL "PROVEN" GUILTY. Somebody needs to remind fatarse murtha of that FACT!!!!!!!!!!!
SEMPER FI,

yellowwing
06-04-06, 03:16 PM
if rhe question is one of honesty i choose to believe that the marine in the middle of the situation will have the willingness to do whatever they have to to [rotect their brothers and sisters and get back.
Exactly! Marines know that and understand it totally. But we are such a small percentage of the populace.

Murtha has gone out of his way to emphasize that it was a small group, and not to condemn the whole Corps. But Joe Blow from Kokomo is only hearing "women, children, cover up." One side of the media is blasting Joe Blow with, "Yes they did!" and the other side screams at him, "No they didn't."

junker316
06-04-06, 06:11 PM
The issue of honesty vs. loyalty has been an ever on going battle. There are those who do the very same things as others because they are loyal to them and there are those who did it because they...

mlurtsema
06-05-06, 03:12 PM
The other side of the argument is that it becomes really easy to hate people who hate you...to kill people who are trying to kill you...to kill people who have killed your fellow Marines. A good leader keeps his unit disciplined so they do not act out on those innate desires...a poor leader may not have the self-discipline to prevent those feels from becoming overwhelming. **** happens in war. But we need to wait until we hear what happened, not rush to judgment and start executing people in the court of public opinion. As I mentioned earlier, the American people are a fickle lot, with very short attention spans.

junker316
06-09-06, 09:49 PM
Hate is easy. To find a loyal and honest person is hard. We can all hate but can we all face the mirror and say " I did what was right "? Maybe what was right to you isn't the right thing for the next person. But you are right that America is fickle and does have a minute long attention span. They would rather imprison war vets for supposed misdeeds than to listen to the defense or the actual story of the event. It seems that whatevere is printed in black and white is the " truth " and what actually happened is wrong. But yet you don't see these accusers doing any type of military serice in most cases. They would rather sit back and try to find wrong doings in events that are known for collateral damage. I am sick of hearing of my brothers and sisters in arms having to defend themselves because of supposed war crimes. That is what this War is...a crime from another country being solved by the international police force...America.

mlurtsema
06-10-06, 02:27 AM
What ****es me off is that General Murtha has turned on his brothers for mere political gain. What ****es me off even worse is that George Bush appears to be hanging these Marines out to dry. They...

junker316
06-14-06, 01:41 PM
The War was supposed to be about getting Saddam out of power...which was done quickly and effectively. Then there was this &quot; THREAT &quot; of WMDs that was proven to be no threat at all. There was then...

mlurtsema
06-14-06, 07:55 PM
I agree with your assessment junker. I would only add that we originally went because of the supposed WMDs and because Osama bin Pigseed and Sadam were in cahoots with each other. Both turned out to be false. Then it was to free Iraq from that evildoer Sadam. Now it is to bring democracy to a people who have little concept and certainly no history of freedom.

As Marines we go where we are sent to do what we were trained to do. That is what it is. But on a personal level, I find the reasons we are giving for putting good people in harms way deplorable and mostly false.