What is your take...

[bugs]

Before proceeding to read this post, I want you to know that I fully support immigrants comming to this Country that I have put my life on the line for, to protect - so long as they do it using the proper way......I fully understand this Country is made up of immigrants........
I have been in disarray since watching and listening to all the media on this immigration.
How is it that it becomes legal to be an illegal immigrant after being an illegal immigrant for so long?:mad:
When will this pattern change? Will this happen again in another 15-20 years?
Why are we paying for the Border Patrol? I'm just a very confused Jarhead at this point on this whole debate.:confused:
What is the right answer? Dont think you want to hear my point of view - I would only refer to the law - Did they come here legally?

I would love to hear more on this issue - BOTH sides of it! I guess I need to get more educated, and maybe should of prior to posting this, but still in the mode after 10 years, hurry up n wait....:beer:

[Marine84]

I'm with you - what do the border patrols do? I don't have a problem with ANYBODY coming here and, if they don't have anything to hide, there shouldn't be a problem with them going through the proper chanels to do it legally. The majority of them (from what I've seen in the construction world) start "hiding" stuff once they get here. Some of them are changing names and social security numbers every year or so. I know our immigration dept is a big joke - I think the whole world is starting to see it too. What gets my goat though is MY insurance rates keep going up, up, and up because of a bunch of folks that are abusing the system that I (as a natural born American) have to pay for. If they're illegal - get 'em out! If they don't want to be legal - get 'em out. If they REALLY want to stay here - join any branch of the military and guard my house at night.

[bugs]

I do know the BP will bring ya some pie while conducting 'training' excersizes on the border, cuz, as we are all aware it is illegal to Militirize the USA & Mexico border....Other than that, well, ummmm - don't know!

I didnt know if there were existing posts on this or not - if you know of one let me know if ya could!

And hellicopter yea, they want to stay here and show their 'love' for this free country, let them start by putting away the other (Mexico) flags they wave in protest HERE to live our way of life!

There are plenty of LEGAL AMERICANS that would do the work they do; hard to beat their pay though cuz they work for next to nothing!

I should stop, before some illegal protests me!

[lovdog]

Two sides to every story. Why is our President pushing so hard for the Mexican workers - think about it?? He's from Texas, right? Well, how many businessmen in his state, and the other states along the border depend on the low cost workers to harvest their crops, build their housing developments, work in manufacturing, production of garments, etc. etc.? Lots & lots of them! It really all comes down to money. Everything nowadays in business is profit driven - if you can save 15 cents labor on one item and you produce 15,000 items a week - how much profit is this in one's pocket? Or, if you are really unscrupulous - well, you can work an illegal 120 hours a week, pay him for 40 hours and pocket the rest of the money. Now, since about 1985 or so this was illegal for a businessman to do this - but without any paperwork to back it up - like a social security card - who is to know? The illegal is making a nice living regardless compared to his own country where the peso is about 12 to 1 now?
Is it much different than General Electric Aircraft Engines being produced in Mexico by Mexican workers? A big business from the USA decided to increase its profits by going after a market in Mexico that can produce the same product in the USA but do it so much cheaper. Don't have to mess with unions, government rules & regulations, pollution controls, being taxed to death, etc.!
Either way, American jobs are disappearing quickly. There isn't much loyalty left in the business world - not on the corporate level anyway. Alot of companies are being bought up by investors who could care less about the average "joe blow" out there - they are only interested in one thing - making a profit and putting money in their pockets any way they can.
Lets put the shoe on the other foot! Say, you are a Mexican, a wife and a couple of kids, you have no job, the wolf is at the door and your family is hungry and you have little skills. So, what do you do? Stay where you are or try to find a job - if that means risking getting caught crossing the border or starving - which would you choose?
I used to live in New Mexico and have met alot of people from Mexico that worked in the area. Alot of them just wanted to work & make some money to send back home. Quite a few also had plans to go back to Mexico once they had enough of a bankroll to be able to return. Some on the other hand, wanted to stay here - and I can't blame them for that either. Why go back to a depressed area when you can stay in the USA & live better? This is a great country that we live in, America has more expendable income than anywhere on this planet. But, we have to be be aware not to open the flood gates or we will definitely pay the price for doing so. And that goes for other nations that keep sending their family members to this country - all you need is a "sponcer". Alot of students enter the USA on a student visa to go to our colleges. Most colleges don't really care who goes there as long as they can pay the price of admission. Alot of these students - just never go back!! Our Government doesn't even know how to track these so called students there are so many of them. So, you got a can of worms either way. You can slow down the traffic, but I doubt if you'll stop it, cause that costs money. Iraq is about 400 billion now, where ae we going to find a little extra money to build a fence on our southern borders? Anyone got a few extra dollars to donate to the Halliburton Corporation? I'm sure they could build us a really nice fence!!SF

[rb1651]

Lovdog, you have brought up many good points, both pro and con. I have worked with many immigrants that wanted nothing but a better life for themselves, and they did it the right way. They registered, got a "green card" and a social security number. More power to them; it's what built our country. On the flip side, I have worked with others who have stolen or bought a SSN, got caught, come back, and look for employment with a whole new identity. For these folks, I say shoot their sorry a**.

It boils down to following the law of the land. You want to work, prove that are a citizen, or go thru the process of applying. If you don't GTFO.

[bugs]

Lovdog,
I see and can understand your points.....We all have Mexican Brothers here in the Corp, but they came legally.
It's not just our President that is supporting these immigrants - though I admire the Senator from AL J.Sessions- our senate is also in support of it; though many have not been 100% happy with wording within the bill.
Durinf conference, when Senator Sessions spoke he had issues with the USA giving ammanisty to these illegal immigrants, and that the way the bill is currently written they would need ZERO proff that they ever worked a day here in order to gain it. They would be able to bring their family over. They in fact would have MORE rights then the immigrants who are currently in the LEGAL process of becoming an American cit!
As for the companies that 'depend' on these immigrants -F'EM, they shouldn't have broke the law in the first place by hiring them, thus avoiding tax dollars in the process. Let's not forget that happens as well when you pay under the table.
Taking jobs over borders has been happening for many years, and will continue to happen even more so. I'm from the Detroit suberbs where I am employed in the automotive field (UG Ddesign). We have offices/contacts/interest, what evver you want to call it, in India, Romania, China. They ae still looking into other countries as well. Do I agree - he(( NO! Do I understand, yes. If I was an owner I would not want to be told where I can and can not take my work. But they are doing it legally as well. They are not bringing them here to work illegally, they are purchasing companies there.
I know I went well outside the scope of the topic at hand, but.......

Hope all is good and bless our brothers in harms way!

[lovdog]

Bugs & rb1651:

I don't know if you caught the ol' cowboy down in Texas that's running for Governor about 4 months ago. He came up with what he calls the "Five Generals Plan"!!
1. You divide the Mexican Border up into 5 sectors.
2. You give 5 Mexican Generals One Million Dollars each in their bank accounts.
3. Any illegal that crosses the border in that particular General's sector - you deduct $ 2,500 from his account!!

Cheaper than building a fence and definitely cheaper regarding the money it takes to support border guards, high tech surveillence equipment, putting them in our jails, feeding them, sending them back across the border, etc.

After I thought about it awhile, its just stupid enough to actually work!!!
Since we can't do it from the USA side, maybe they can do it from the Mexican side??

The real shame of the situation is: That Mexico "could" be a great nation, they have the resources, climate, manpower to become a world power, especially with the help of the USA and its businesses. Instead, they are corrupted on every level of government and this will always keep the people from living a good & proper lifestyle. Our President and our Ambassador to Mexico should be finding ways of both countries working together to solve the problems that face both sides. But, that would be logical and we know that politics and logic are like oil & water!! Instead, should we be surprised, its politics as usual. Neither side has any idea of what to do because each is looking out for their own special interests!! If we saw Mexico as an extension of the USA instead of another third world country, we could both prosper. The Mexican President will just sit back & let the people fend for themselves, let them continually cross our borders - thats just the more that he doesn't have to worry about. So, the USA just keeps on funding more & more money to the border and the other side will keep finding ways to transport more & more people across as long as they can pay the price of admission. And, there are those that are making as much off of trafficing humans as most are smuggling drugs. As long as bribery is well and profitable the flood of humans from the South will continue, as both sides are just as guilty.
Like I said before, its all about money. We got it and they smell it - the aromas are moving south on the wind and its in their nostrils as we speak!!
If you guys come up with some good ideas of how to stop this, other than just plain calling the border a "free fire zone" , I'm all ears!! SF

[rktect3j]

Do any of you trully know how har it is to get into this country legally? My wife did it. She was only able to get here because her mother was a citizen. Without having an "in" you just aren't going to get in. An "in" is something like a relative (parent, brother, sister) no cousins. If you are a nobel peace prize winner you can get in. Seeking political asylum and you can get in. Some sort of refugee who made it across the border and are seeking safe harbor and you can get in. But if you are just Ivan with a high school diploma you are basically screwed unless you can find a company to sponsor you. That company has to prove that it looked within its borders for "x" amount of time and that the immigrant has special skills that most others don't have as it pertains to the job he will be hired for. Also, the company has to show that the wage it is paying the immigrant can support him and that he will not become a burden to the system. The figures that can be looked up for this are staggering. He/she will make more money then most college graduates. That is on paper of course.

I hate to say this but America is insane when it comes to its immigration policy.

[Bige1371]

I agree with rktect3j. It is incredibly hard and expensive to get in legally. My wife is in the process now of becoming a citizen. We have spent thousands of dollars so far. This is the woman I married and we still have to pay for her to become a citizen. No wonder we have so many illegals in this country it is so damn expensive to do it legally. FYI she is Japanese not Hispanic if that matters to anyone. Everything is about money. If she wants to leave the country to visit her parents we have to fill out a request and pay money and wait for a response. When she wanted to work we had to fill out a request pay money and wait. I agree that we do have a problem at our border but how many of you had to pay to become a citizen? We all served our country why should our wives have to pay to live here if they weren't born here? I do hate the statement "they do work many Americans wont do" though. You show me a construction job for 12hr and I guarantee I'll find at least 20 guys that will take it that are legal.

[rktect3j]

I was talking about something called "prevailing wage" above.

Here is a portion so you can see what an employer will need to show he is paying the work sponsored immigrant. The first number you see is the base pay per hour. Such as Asbestos $30.15/hour. This guy probably works to get rid of an asbestos type material out of areas for demolition. Or Carpenter he needs to be paid $35.32/hour. At these rates I'd love to be an immigrant working here. I can't make that being an Architect.

Cook County Prevailing Wage for April 2006
Trade Name RG TYP C Base FRMAN *M-F>8 OSA OSH H/W Pensn Vac Trng
==================== == === = ====== ====== ===== === === ===== ===== ===== =====
ASBESTOS ABT-GEN ALL 30.150 30.900 1.5 1.5 2.0 6.860 3.940 0.000 0.170
ASBESTOS ABT-MEC BLD 23.300 24.800 1.5 1.5 2.0 7.860 4.910 0.000 0.000
BOILERMAKER BLD 37.700 41.090 2.0 2.0 2.0 6.720 6.790 0.000 0.210
BRICK MASON BLD 33.250 36.580 1.5 1.5 2.0 6.450 7.020 0.000 0.440
CARPENTER ALL 35.320 37.320 1.5 1.5 2.0 6.760 5.310 0.000 0.490
CEMENT MASON ALL 36.600 37.850 2.0 1.5 2.0 6.110 4.920 0.000 0.150
CERAMIC TILE FNSHER BLD 27.200 0.000 2.0 1.5 2.0 5.400 5.200 0.000 0.100
COMM. ELECT. BLD 31.440 33.940 1.5 1.5 2.0 6.300 5.290 0.000 0.700
ELECTRIC PWR EQMT OP ALL 34.950 40.720 1.5 1.5 2.0 7.420 8.730 0.000 0.260
ELECTRIC PWR GRNDMAN ALL 27.260 40.720 1.5 1.5 2.0 5.790 6.820 0.000 0.210
ELECTRIC PWR LINEMAN ALL 34.950 40.720 1.5 1.5 2.0 7.420 8.730 0.000 0.260
ELECTRICIAN ALL 35.150 37.750 1.5 1.5 2.0 8.680 6.850 0.000 0.750

[rktect3j]

Now show me how an illegal immigrant can make that picking fruit. The farmers here in America can not afford to pay these rates so they rely on illegal immigrants. It's sad really.

[bugs]

Wooooo........
I understand where your thoughts and heart is rk, but lets take a moment here to reflect......
All countries have a immigration policy that it must stand up to and protect. You ask if we know how hard it is to come here legally - flip side is that it is also the easiest country to get into illegally. Because it is so hard to obtain legal status, does that mean it is ok to break the law just because it is so hard to do legally? No, its not, nor should it be.
There are thousands of LEGAL AMERICANS that would take the place of illegals that are illegally employed right now - but for a realistic pay rate, not what they are being paid for. Lovdog has it right, it's all about cash. They (the ones that hire illegals - though I am prefering to say invaders) want to sell the product to legal Americans, but dont want to pay legal Americans to do the work.
Why should it be legal for invaders to come here, work for next to nothing, not pay a cent in taxes, take jobs from willing LEGAL Americans who would work and pay taxs?
Why is it so hard to come over legally, well I look at it this way; we have so many unemployed here that we don't need more comming and taking more jobs from legal Americans.
I know my father came here from Canada via Austria, as well as so many others, but they did not cry and wave their flags in protest about not getting the right to come here immediatlly, he was patient, waited for the system to process him, then became legal.
Living in an area where the big 3 play a major role in the job market I can somewhat relate to the actions of Americans that live in areas that are overwhelmed by the influence that illegals bring to the areas job market. Our goverment is acting the same way with the big 3 here in the suberbs of Detroit - they turn their eyes and allow it to happen. The job market here has been heading in a downward sprial for the past 5-7 years and is now in a free fall with the outsourcing of - what should be - American jobs. These auto companies are not being taxed as they should for taking this work over seas to India, Romania, China and so on. Our goverrment needs to stop this, or even the playing field so that it is conterproductive to take this work - and inturn American jobs - to other countries. I know how it feels first hand to have jobs lost to non-Americans. In turn I know these invaders are taking jobs from non Americans throughout this Country we live in and I know that the unemployed can not be happy with that in all the areas in which are affected by this.
Now, someone will say that their country is not taking care of them, well, just because they are our neighbors does that make it ok? Should we open our doors to everyone? What should the policy be?
I dont mean to come across so strong RK, but the company I work for just lost over 50% of our employess do to out sourcing - which is on the same lines as this, lost their jobs do to someone doing it for next to nothing.
I look at it this way, last time i looked at a map I saw that there was a border and two seperate Countries in the south.

If i offended anyone I am sorry, but I fought for this Country and the legal Americans, not the ones whom come here illegally and take jobs from the legal ones.

take carre my brothers.......

[rktect3j]

Bugs, just FYI. My post was in no way meant to condone illegal immigration. I only wanted to help enlighten the masses of the daunting task ahead of a person seaking legal status in a legal manner. I believe in America and what it stands for and a part of that is immigration. But for immigraiton to work we need to let some of them in without screwing them over in the meantime. Bige1371 has attested to the amount of cash you need to get through the legal system, fees, payoffs, etc, etc. I also know that it cost a lot of money for my wife to get her legal status about 12 years ago.

I agree with 95% of your entire post Bugs so I am not going to rehash it. But unemployment is down. That is a reflection of the entire market not one sector area (state or city) or one company. Some jobs die out over time, some move, and still some new fields get created. You'll notice that the guy who used to bring the blocks of ice for your ice chest is no longer employed. Thats a joke.:)

[bugs]

bige and RK,
You are both affected by this to closely, having married outside of our borders. I fully understand your questions/concerns regarding this issue. It has to be hard dealing with it all.
I don't know what the exact answer is on this, but at least we are in some sort of agreement that something needs to be done.
The current citizenship of the illegal does not mean anything to me. What matters is a legal way of doing things. You both were married to non US citizens, you both decided that on your own. You also decided to continue your lives together here in the USA knowing what you would have to do. Of course I do not know your current status with the Corp, and I understand that living here is your only choice.
Now, trying to get back to the current citizenship. Do you think that middle eastern immigrants (whom are linked to terrorism more so than others)should be let in as easy as you are suggesting for Mexicans, or Japensse immigrants, whom are not as well known for terrorism? I think it should be harder - maybe not as expensize as bige is saying - but harder to obtain citizenship. If it was an easy pocess we would be opening our people to the constant threat of terrorism. Yes, it affects those honest patrotic current Americans whom choose to marry outside our borders. But there are also known criminials that have servered our country that would not hesitate to do our country harm.

again, these are my issues with it and i do not mean or intend to be rude - it is the right I have to express myself that we, as vets, have fought to protect.

[bugs]

RK,
Im glad we are on the same page, and sorry i mistook your stance on this issue.
As for jobs dying out or moving....well, these are jobs that Americans have been doing since the automobile has ben invented. I know that the owners of these companies should not be told where or where not they can take the work or product they produce, but that they need to be hit with tariffs/taxs that behoove them to keep it here. We are the ones that built these companies up - it's not like you see an H3 all over the roads in other countries like you do here, we keep these companies in business. We, meaning everyone of us who choose to drive a big 3 product. I will be the first one in line to buy the chinese car once it makes it here - 5 to 7k, not to bad if you ask me!

Again RK, sorry to have pushed so hard but it's been a bad day. Today is the day we lost all the jobs I previously had mentioned.....

Bless our brothers in harms way and may God be with them.........

[rktect3j]

Bugs, you think that our current immigration system is protecting you. Thats a great feeling to have. The unfortunate truth is that it isn't really doing anything. Most of the hijackers for 9/11 were not here as illegals. Only a couple would have thrown up any red flags if EVERYTHING was working properly. Which it wasn't nor is it now. Sure the process weeds some out but for some reason my wife, who is now a federal agent working for ICE (Immigration and Customs Enforcement) as a special agent, has so much work I don't get to see her very much. I think last year she arrested over 150 criminal aliens. That is her special niche in it all. She goes after known criminal aliens. More specifically she is after sex offenders.

Now to get to your question. No I do not think that every country should have the same restrictions put on it. With that said people will now say I want racial profiling. They would be right about that too. I am all for it. Mexicans are not a threat to national security. So who is? Do you know? Try looking up Wahhabism. Saudi Arabia should be floating around your mind right about now. But it would seem that we are letting in the people from that country moreso then from countries such as Iran who haven't actually terrorized our country.

My wife came from Poland. We have tried everything we know, legally, to get some extended family members entrance into this country. Can't seem to be done. There isn't a form you sign and a few years later they say come on in.

[bugs]

RK....
No, I dont think our current system is of any value what so ever.
I agree with your view of each country having different values to follow - t an extent and only in a way. If criminals couldnt travel so easily and obtain citizenship from other countries I would fully support that idea. But they can and do.
I hate that loyal, law abiding American citzens such as yourself, your family, and the others that do follow the law, get punished. That it has to suck knowing you are loyal and honest yet you can not bring in family without exhausting every source necessary. I do feel for you and your family and the thousands (?) of others that are in your same situation.
There has to be a law in place that does not discriminate against any other country, contrary to what I feel or believe in. One that looks deep into the roots of the person applying for citizenship. We should never again be faced with what happened to this Country on 9-11. There is only one way in which to do it - unfortantly it would cost more and be much more time consuming.
Again, let me say that I am not full blown against immigration, but rather for the strict inforcement of it.
It does not make it right just because it has been broken for so long.

thoughts are with you, and others in your same situation....

[Bige1371]

Why cant we just ask those applying for citizenship to submit to a polygraph. Ask them about any possible ties or links to any terrorists groups. Wouldn't that take care of that problem?

[Roulette]

Huh, .....
All that we do for ourselves in this nation we do by a voting system that so far seems to be working. By working I mean, we keep people employed, give medical attention to those in need, feed the children and provide a free basic education for our citizens.
What would happen then, if, we gave citizenship to all the illegals and then had some real voting power in this country? In Rome, only citizens voted, the rest were considered slave labor. How far do we go before a real "bottom" of the heep turns in on itself and the compost of our so called "republic" ignites itslef on pure ignorance? As long as there is a working population with no vote, we lack our basic principals, that of a "free" voting nation. We have an availabe work force, they just can no longer vote.

[redneck13]

:evilgrin: :mad: Ladies and Gentlemen.....it boils down to one thing....."GREED-CORRUPTION" in our Gubmit. Period. I had a nephew who married here in the US an Australian Lady. For some reason, her status was rejected by our Gubmit, they had to Move to Australia until such time as her status becomes valid????--I thought if you Married in America a person, man/woman, they were legal? Help me out here? I know that if an "Illegal Immigrant" has a child here, they are automatically citizen's, or am I wrong?
The "greed-corruption" on both sides outways any possible answer's to solve the problem....All of this just boggles my pea brain.....What a mess to get into now, when we got men/women dieing in a stupid war!!! This will show you, where the mind's of some of elected Wash. igmo's brain's are, don't ya think? SF