The Shotgun For Personal/Home Defense...

[gunnyg]

http://www.network54.com/Forum/message?forumid=135069&messageid=1037549399

[Barrio_rat]

While the article was accurate, there are some things that can be brought to light for those that are not firearm enthusiasts. I have been through several firearms training courses and I do have some knowledge in this field. I do not claim that I know more than the next guy and I'm always willing to learn, as well as help inform. Some of this is opinion - however, it is opinion based on experience and from listening to those who have even more experience than myself.

1st "In any case, choosing a shotgun must be carefully considered because of its potential for tremendous damage and because anyone who has access to it needs good training in how to load, aim and fire. Much more so than for a simple handgun." — You should receive training on any and all firearms you intend to use. Practice with them and be familiar with how they function. It is a good idea, and a commonly held belief, to have only one firearm for self defense. This helps to eliminate possible confusion while under stress. Depending on load and type of ammunition used, a shotgun blast can strop rather quickly whereas a pistol round can go through many walls. There are many factors for this, don't assume that just because it is a shotgun shell it will stop in the first wall, should there be a miss. Shotguns are easier to aim - point and shoot - than a pistol due to the pattern from the shot. There are several gauges to choose from with shotguns as well. For small framed people there are the 16 gauge and the 20 gauge shotguns - sometimes referred to as a "woman's gun". There is also the .410 shotgun. There is very little recoil with the 20 gauge and the .410 and they tend to be a lighter weapon. The downside to these smaller gauge shotguns is that if an intruder is wearing heavy leather the pellets may not penetrate the leather - in effect it is a bullet proof vest. Another thing to consider is that if you use "self defense" ammunition, be ready to defend yourself in court. This won't always happen but it could. In using self defense ammunition a prosecutor (prosecuting you for murder or manslaughter) or the lawyer for the plaintiff (suing you for wrongful death) could use that against you, in that you bought that ammunition for the expressed purpose of taking a life and therefore intended to kill someone. Sounds ridiculous but there are people doing time for defending themselves. Something that a few people have gone to is using a legal hunting shotgun (3 shot maximum) instead of a riot or tactical shot gun which can hold up to 8 or even 10 shells. With this type of weapon, it is a hunting weapon, and they buy hunting ammunition, steel bird shot is very effective and powerful. You could also have a single or double slug as your third shot, many hunters do this in case of wild animals for self protection while in the field. It is also effective as self defense against intruders. With this setup - hunting weapon and hunting ammunition - it can be stated that you have those items for hunting and that when the intruder came into your home, you used it for self defense.

2nd: "It has been said that one of the scariest sounds an assailant can hear is the sound of a shell being jacked into the chamber of a pump shotgun." — This may be true but don't count on it. It also lets the intruder know where you are - or the general area of where you are - and that you are armed. You don't know if the intruder is armed or not. If you are going to take out a pump shotgun be fully prepared to use it, otherwise leave it alone.

The Mossberg is a very capable and well made weapon. I have one in the pistol grip style and find that it is fun for target practice but for self defense I'd rather use my Smith & Wesson riot shotgun or one of my pistols. The pistol grip on a shotgun is less comfortable and difficult to aim. Also, the wrist and elbow take all the recoil rather than the shoulder and back. One shot of 3" Magnum and you're done for the day, trust me!

Since this was on self defense, I'd like to make another point. KNOW THE LAWS OF YOUR STATE, COUNTY AND CITY!!!!!!! Ignorance of the law is no excuse in court. Again, many people have gone to prison for doing what was, at the time, right and just - only to find out it was also illegal. Most states have a self defense law. Most states also will consider it a criminal act if you use lethal force on a person who is considered to no longer be a threat. If they are holding a TV with both hands (even if it's your TV), they are not a threat. If the person is running away, they are not a threat. The best thing to do, if at all possible, when there is an intruder in your home - or you suspect there is an intruder - stay put in one area (preferably in a bedroom or an end room with the door closed and, if possible, locked). If you have your weapon with you, great, if not it is a judgement call on whether you should chance attempting to go get it. Whichever you decide, call the police. The police are trained to clear a house, you are not. If you decide to venture out in your house and the police do show up, they may think you are the intruder and, if you are carrying a shotgun, shoot you in their own defense. Not a good way to end a day! Call the police, let them know where you are in the house and let them know you are armed. Stay on the phone with 911. They will be able to tell you when the police arrive and the police officers names so that there can be a check at the door before they come in on you while you are still armed. This is also a way of communicating with the police without exposing yourself to any unnecessary danger.

I went into a little detail here but there is a great deal more. Always know your surroundings, be aware of possibilities. Go over what you would do in case of an intruder. Some people practice home self defense just as they would a fire drill. Not a bad thing to do if you intend to be armed for your own protection. I would suggest, if you are going to keep firearms in your home, take self defense courses. They will cover the local laws, the how to's, the should nots and will help you in the proper use of firearms for self defense. Hope this has helped.

[gunnyg]

I recently had searched the Net for info on shotguns, and I was surprised by some of the info I found--therefore posted some of this info where I can get my hands on it again in the future, and for others who may be as ignorant as I am on shotguns.

Apparently, the USMC used the 1897 Remington pump shotgun extensively in WW I as a "trench sweeper."

The same 1897 was again issued to Carlson's 2d Marine Raider Battalion for Makin and Guadalcanal. Mac McCullough, who was Carlson's radioman, related to me that he always was armed w/the shotgun and .45 pistol while in the raiders.

I was really surprised that the destructive power of a 12 ga. pump shotgun is so great!

Best

DickG

[Tude]

What we need in the Good Old U S A is a Deadly Force Law

if anyone is caught in your home ie:Intruder ,Burglar ,Rapist ,etc

we as Citizens should have the right to use Deadly Force to

protect our Lives and Property!!!!!!!!!

How many (other than crazed persons) do you think would Rob,

Rape ,Steal if they knew that in all "Fifty States" there was a

"Deadly Force Law"? No one in there right mind , would even

think about it .

WE are too damn easy on all types of "Nasty" things that happen

to us ,Let us take back our City's and there streets.

WAKE UP AMERICA ,BEFORE IT IS TOO LATE ,IT JUST MAYBE TOO

LATE.

God Bless & Heaven Help Us
Jimmy/Tude

PS: You come into my house uninvited , your DEAD.

:marine:

[badbob]

Gunny,

The 1897 Remington used by the Corps as a trench sweeper was actually a Winchester Model 97 manufactured under licensing agreements for the US Government by Remington.

The Remington’s are pretty scarce today because there weren’t many made. The Winchesters in serviceable condition are still abundant and sell for around $600.00

It was and still is a nice little shotgun. I own one, and it still shoots 00 buckshot like a cannon with a 30” pattern at 15 paces.

I like it because it has an exposed hammer, which allows you to I leave it loaded without having it actually cocked.

I had a Cop tell me once, that if I shot an intruder in my home that I better make sure he's dead before I call, saves on paperwork.

Cleaning someone else’s brains off your walls is less of a problem than having someone else cleaning your brains off your the walls!

I’d go with a shotgun and a .357 or 9mm for back up.


Semper Fi,
Bob

[mrbsox]

More input from a gun owner

Everybody seems right on...

Know your weapon
Know your laws
KNOW for sure... that you are in FEAR FOR YOUR LIFE before pulling the trigger.

Sounds like education is the key. !!! I have ALWAYS had loaded guns in the house, even when the kids (boys and girls) were smaller, ages 4-8.

They knew there were guns in the house, they knew where they were. They knew they were loaded, and would KILL you. They also knew, that IF they EVER wanted to see them, come get me and we would look at them together. And we did. And we took them out and shot them, bigger guns for bigger kids. From 22 rifle, to 50 Cal Muzzle loader. Cassie was a pretty sharp shot with the 22, at 6 years old.

We NEVER had any trouble, with the kids or intruders. The kids knew that if any one came in the house at night, they were TO STAY WHERE THEY WERE. That way, I knew where they were.

Just some input from a gun owner. EDUCATION is the key. Curiosity killed more that 'the cat'.

Kenessaw GA...... now that's a gun law I could live with :banana:

Terry

[SHOOTER1]

IM AGAINST KENESSAW, I DONT WANT EVERYONE TO HAVE A GUN, JUST THOSE THAT HAVE THE COMMON SENSE TO KNOW WHEN TO USE IT, AND THOSE THAT HAVE TAKEN THE TIME TO LEARN THE WEAPON THEY ARE USING. MY SON AND DAUGHTER GREW UP WITH LOADED GUNS IN THE HOUSE, AND WERE TAUGHT TO RESPECT THEM, AT AGE 6 THEY EACH GOT A SINGLE SHOT 22 ON THIER RESPECTIVE BIRTHDAYS, THEY WERE TAUGHT TO HIT WHAT THEY AIMED AT, HOW TO CLEAN THEM , AND HOW TO USE AND CARRY SAFLY, EACH JOINED THE MARINES WHEN THEY GRADUATED HIGH SCHOOL, MY SON THE GRUNT FIRED EXPERT IN BOOT, MY DAUGHTER OFFICE POGUE (prior to the Corps becoming enlightened and placing women in other sectors) ALSO FIRED EXPERT , AND SERVED TWO TOURS, SHE TRIED TO GIT ON THE MARINE CORPS RIFLE TEAM , BUT WAS NOT ALLOWED TO AT THAT TIME, HOPE ITS DIFFERENT NOW, BUT SHE CAN HIT THE LID OF A POP BOTTLE, AT 25 FT WITH MY 45, THE LID NOT ON THE BOTTLE, BUT STUCK IN A FENCE POST, AND YOU SHOULD SEE WHAT SHE CAN DO WITH MY TRICKED OUT COMP. 45, AND IS A WONDER WITH MY SCOPED M1A1.

[wrbones]

As I've said before, just my opinion, but an armed society is a polite society.....


Of course, after decades of having unarmed citizens around, the Darwin Factor would have an astounding impact for a year or two, but things should settle down after that.....

[SHOOTER1]

0n another note, your rite, it is the Winchester Model 97 used by the Marines, NOT Remington, with bayonet attached, it was called a trench sweeper, very deadly in the trenches and any where else it was used, they are still found at gun shows, for about 300.00 but the bayonet attachment and bayonet sells for about 300.00 by itself, ive owned 3 of them , one i still have and use in Cowboy shoots, cut down to the magazine and hard chromed to go with the SS Ruger Bisleys and hard chromed Marlen Cowboy11 as the other weapons used, also have the predesser to the Model 97 , made in 1882 (patent date) by Spencer, and manufactured by Banner Firearms, Winchester won the rights in court to produce them, and named them Model 97, an aside, ive been a Compatition Shooter with a NRA rating of Master since 1970, (Seattle Police Dept.) and a licensed firearms dealer since 1980, sorry about the length, but i do like talking weapons, thanx WAREAGLE GUNS AND KNIVES,=SHOOTER

[firstsgtmike]

Saw a sign on a property, several years ago:

KEEP OUT
PRIVATE PROPERTY
Trespassers will be shot.
Survivors will be shot again.

Last week, the headlines and lead article in two national papers reported about a policeman who always gets his man. He was chasing a burgler, and when the chase ended, the burgler had EIGHTEEN bullet entry holes in him.

No, the cop didn't have a shotgun. If he did, the'd still be picking up pieces of the culprit, with tweezers.

At the entrance to the malls, they inspect all packages. The inspector is armed with an m-16 and eight extra magazines. Like wise, his two backups, standing off to the side.

I don't go to the malls too often.

(I didn't go into Dogpatch either, when the VC were on a liberty run.)

[SHOOTER1]

just testing

[SHOOTER1]

shooting wide

[Barndog]

Also found this out many years ago experimenting with my step Brother (Navy). He was into pistol sillouette shooting at the time.
He was testing what he called the 'home protection load' - a 12 ga shell will extra wadding and 10 dimes. Yup, a bucks worth.

Regardless, at 30 feet, the 'buck' did more damage than 00 buckshot did to a 3/4" piece of CDX plywood than you would ever believe without actually doing it yourself. It shredded it, where the buckshot put a few holes in it. See, flat objects spin when propelled at a high rate of speed out a cylinder......

For future reference.

Don't own a shotgun, but I do own a .44 mag...... and when that lil red dot hits you......

Pray

[RONALD511]

I READ AND ALL OF YOU MARINES MAKE SOME SENSE. ALL OF YOU CAN AND PROBABLY WOULD KILL AN INTRUDER IN YOUR HOME. I DOUBT VERY SERIOUSLY IF ANYONE OF YOU HAVE KILLED ANYONE IN YOUR HOMES LATELY... BUT IT SOUNDS AS THOUGH YOUR ALL READY FOR WORLD WAR THREE. I HOPE NOTHING EVER HAPPENS. TO ANY ONE OF YOU AS THIS HAS HAPPENED TO ME. MY OWN BROTHER TRYING TO MURDER ME. IN ANY CASE I WASN'T HOME AT THE TIME . HE DID MANAGE TO KILL HIS GIRLFRIEND AND OUR MOTHER'S OLDEST SISTER. THEN DRIVE OVER TO ANOTHER'S HOUSE AND KILL HIM AND SHOT OVER 150 ROUNDS INTO A POLICE CAR WOUNDING THE DRIVER IN THE NECK.AR15'S ARE DEADLY. THE SWAT TEAM SHOT HIM BUT HE SURVIVED TO GO TO DEATH ROW FOR 10 MONTH'S THEN GET THE NEEDLE. IN THE DAYS PRIOR TO ALL THIS , I TRIED TELLING THE POLICE ABOUT HIM BUT THEY DID NOT BELIEVE ME AND INSTEAD CALLED HIM INTO THE OFFICE WHERE HE DENIED THE CLAIMS I MADE. SOME POLICE ARE AS USELESS AS COWARDS ARE IN COMBAT... PLEASE REPLY IF YOU HAVE ANYMORE IN-PUT ON THE SUBJECT OF GUNS USED FOR HOME DEFENSE.:marine:HE USED MY COLT AR-15 WITH 40-ROUND MAGAZINES, COLT-COMMANDER-45 AND A 50-CAL DESERT EAGLE. ALL WHERE DESTROYED AND NEVER RECOVERED...THE FAMILY AS WELL.

[SHOOTER1]

THE best defensive weapon in your home is (you) what you use in your hands depends on what you are familiar with or feel comfortable with, if your not well versed with a pistol or shotgun, short or long , its better to use a baseball bat, to many have gotton a gun , and dont know how to use it safly, having a gun does not mean you win in a confrontation, only if you are familiar enough to use it safly when half awake and are willing to pull the trigger,pulling the trigger with a human in the sights is not an easy thing to do, ask some of these guys on line, i know the first two or three times i hesitated, but got thru it, course vomit is no problem in the jungle, but you have to have the mind set, that you will, and you will empty the weapon, reload, check the perp, and call 911 . Semper Fi.

[RONALD511]

YOUR RIGHT...

[mrbsox]

Staff Seargent,

Hat in hand, head bowed.... may God be with you, and your family.

And may everyone else realize that guns don't kill people,
PEOPLE KILL PEOPLE.

I mentioned that my family is familier with guns, and how to use them. I didn't mention, that several years ago, I had my 44 Mag. stolen from the house, and used in a liquor store. No one was killed, and I got it back. But I also became more aware of WHO knew what was where , in the house.

I have delt with this type of thing in my mind for decades now, KNOWING that one of my loved ones could be harmed, or killed, by MY firearm, being in the house, loaded, and ready. Just like it's a choice of which weapon to use for defense, it is also a choice to defend yourself, and loved ones.

I decided to keep a gun available in my home (some in different places), and maintain a DEFENSIVE posture. To my minds eye, it is worth the risk of innocent injury to my family.

Whom ever is reading this thread, and thinking about home/self defense, you HAVE to realize that ALL of the things in this thread are potentially real in YOUR life.

YOU have to make the decission.
YOU have to live with the results.
YOU have to clean up the mess when it's over.
YOU have to tell your wife (or husband) that their child got hurt from your actions.
YOU have to live with it.

I don't consider myself a 'gun nut', or militant, just cautious. My family and friends don't worry about me and my guns. I have a 'carry permit', but I don't carry, on my person. It provides me LEGAL protection, when a gun is in the car. My neighbors don't know what I have. A defensive posture, works best, when no one knows there is a defense present.

Just the ramblings, of a believer in the U.S of A., and my 2nd ammendment rights. You decide whats best, for your position.

Terry

[firstsgtmike]

A. The number of physicians in the US is 700,000. (seven hundred
thousand)

B. Accidental deaths caused by Physicians per year is 120,000.

C. Accidental deaths per physician is 0.171. (US Dept. of Health & Human Services)

Then think about this:

A. The number of gun owners in the US is 80,000,000. (eighty million)

B. The number of accidental gun deaths per year (all age groups) is 1,500.

C. The number of accidental deaths per gun owner is .0000188.

Statistically, doctors are approximately 9,000 times more dangerous than gun owners.

FACT: NOT EVERYONE HAS A GUN, BUT ALMOST EVERYONE HAS AT LEAST ONE DOCTOR.

Please alert your friends to this alarming threat. We must ban doctors before this gets out of hand. As a public health measure they have withheld the statistics on lawyers for fear that the shock could cause people to seek medical attention

[RONALD511]

THANKS FOR YOUR COMMENTS AND I RESPECT YOUR OPTION DEEPLY. YOUR RIGHT. WHAT CAN I SAY, WHAT CAN I DO. JUST MOVE ON SOMEHOW, LIVE LIVE LIVE!!!

[leroy8541]

i have to agree with the common idea on gun ownership in this thread is education. the right kind of education. there is more to being a firearm owner than knowing how to load it shoot it hiting the target and being safe with the firearm. I am an avid firearm owner myself in fact I am a gunsmith by trade. my children know every thing there is to know about them i have never tried to hide them from them and they are always loaded. but I took it a step further as it was taken with me I know it sounds very cruel to some and will be horribly in humane to others but here is the education that was given to me. my dad as i did with mine took out a favorit hunting dog that i dearly loved put a rifle in my hands and told me to " put him down!" this was the most unreal and saddest days of my life as was with my children. but one that we will never forget! we know the destructive power of the weapons and what it is like to use them and the feeling of loss they will bring if used improperly. I only wish a good friend of mine would have found someway to teach his son this, he taught him everything about firearms the boy is an excellent shot he has won trophies in compitition shoots. except one day he and one of his buddies hatched a plan to "borrow" dads and papas guns they took them to school and committed one of the most massive murders in the history of jonesboro arkansas now he knows the destructive power of a firearm, sadly.

[gunnyg]

I never would have guessed this topic would have returned as much interest/responses as it has--I had just copied and pasted a few articles from the Internet for my own reading, and I eventually posted to my forum--easy to save stuff that way, but can't always find it again.

Anyway, it seems to have touched the interest of a buncha people, resulting in much more info than I had to begin with.

ThanYaAll!

DickG