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View Full Version : Semper Fidelis, Gung Ho, and Espirit de Corps!



gunnyg
11-15-02, 11:30 AM
Do all these things mean the same thing?

In some ways they do; in other ways it would seem that one picks up where the other leaves off; just one big ball of wax, to some others.

What did Evans F. Carlson think of these things? Apparently, he had done a lot of thinking, for many years, on this subject, and had come to conclusions on this. On the eve of Tarawa, aboard ship, he was interviewed by Time's Robert Sherrod. He spoke on Semper Fidelis specifically, and he said that something more was needed. But, at that point, he didn't specifically mention what he thought that was. But he has left writings behind, and many, many Marines whom he instructed daily on what he thought that was/is. He called it Gung Ho! Or, even more specifically, "Ethical Indoctrination."

Here is a part of that Sherrod interview, and some other interesting info on Carlson....


http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/2WWcarlson.htm

gunnyg
11-15-02, 11:35 AM
GUNG HO!
According To Evans F. Carlson
ETHICAL INDOCTRINATION
CARLSON OF THE RAIDER MARINES


GUNG HO!
ACCORDING TO LTCOL EVANS F. CARLSON USMCR

I have found that many writers, in many publications, writing about Carlson, have made the observation that the words Gung Ho have lost much of their original meaning. Also, it has been pointed out that the translation of the words themselves from the Chinese produces even more room for confusion, as there may be multiple definitions or interpretations, just as many American words have more that one dictionary meaning. And, too, many have noted that "Gung Ho!" has been "bastardized" to the point that it is now, to many, just a slogan, a battle cry, or just a word denoting a goodMarine Gung Ho was not something simple to understand, even for Carlson and his Raider Marines--it had to be worked on and lived!

In an article titled "The Legacy of Evans Carlson," by Robert J. Dalton (LtCol USMC Ret.) in the August 1987 Marine Corps Gazette, the author states, "...Ironically, the term 'gung ho' has come to mean almost the opposite of how it was originally used. Today, the term has an aggressive, Prussianistic connotation. It has little of the 'ethical'meaning for which it was originally used...."

Well, then, what was the intention of the originator of the now famous term, "Gung Ho?"

For the answer to that we can go to Carlson's own book, Twin Stars Of China, 1941. Carlson wrote, "The superb fighters of the Chinese Eighth Route Army had studied the Japanese methods, tactics, and psychology for years. They knew intimately the strengths and weaknesses of the Japanese troops.

Surprise was the Eighth's heaviest weapon against the invaders. With surprise, they made life a hell for the men from Nippon. But there was another and even more important element which made the success of the Eighth
Route Army.

I sought this element assiduously. Then the answer came to me one day when I had completed a march of 58 miles without sleep, along with a column of 600 Chinese. Not a man left the column on this march.
I thought: What could be the stimulus which would induce 600 men to complete such an arduous task without even one failing. It could be nothing but the Desire and Will of each individual to complete the task. Here was the secret weapon of the Eighth Route Army.

Through systematic indoctrination, every man had received what I call ethical indoctrination. "They knew what they were fighting for...."

"In war, as in the pursuits for peace, the human element is of prime importance. Human nature is much the same the world over, and human beings everywhere respond to certain fundamental stimuli. So, if men have confidence in their leaders, if they are convinced that the things for which they endure and fight are worthwhile, if they
believe the effort they are making contributes definitely to the realization of their objectives, then their efforts will be voluntary, spontaneous, and persistent.

The men of the Eighth Route Army had a term for this spirit of cooperation. They called it 'gung ho.'"

Later, Carlson taught his men from his experiences relating to the above. In the Carlson biography, The Big Yankee, by Michael Blankfort, 1947, Carlson says,
"..Two words--'ethical indoctrination.' Those are big words, boys, but let me tell you simply what they mean. The reason those 600 men were able to endure such hardship is because they knew why it was necessary for them to complete that march.

But much more than that, they knew why that march was important to the whole series of battles they were fighting; and they knew why these battles were mportant to the whole war against the Japs. And the war against
the Japs was one they understood and believed in.

In short, they understood why the efforts of every single one of them was necessary to the whole Chinese people. That's ethical indoctrination.

(Continued, Next Page)

gunnyg
11-15-02, 11:38 AM
GUNG HO!
ACCORDING TO
EVANS F. CARLSON
Ethical Indoctrination -- The Gung Ho Spirit!

(continued)
He explained carefully how out of ethical indoctrination men grow to have confidence in themselves and their officers; how when every man knows his efforts count, whether officer or cook, general or quartermaster coolie, no one thinks of himself or his job as being more or less important than anyone else or any one else's job; and each man has respect for himself and confidence in himself and in the others. Out of this mutual respect and confidence, comes the ability of men to work together wholeheartedly, without fear or favor or envy or contempt.

He trembled a little inside him as he spoke, for if ethical indoctrination was the key of the Raiders, it was also the star by which he had finally come to steer his own life. This battalion, these thousand men, was the test of himself.

The Chinese have two words for 'working together,' he said. 'Gung, meaning 'work'; Ho meaning 'harmony.' Gung Ho! Work Together! That is the end result of ethical indoctrination."

"He went on to explain that Gung Ho was important to all of them, because they were Americans--for it gave them the chance to practice the democracy they believed, where no man should have priviliges over another man and where discipline comes from knowledge....a confidence that creates initiative and daring in battle...greater
damage to the enemy...lower cost in lives to themselves...We will strive for ethical indoctrination...I
propose that Gung Ho be the spirit and slogan of our Raider Battalion...Let's hear you say it, He raised his voice and shouted, 'Gung Ho!'

There was a split-second of silence in the ranks...But the words came and the grove of eucalyptus trees in the middle of San Diego County heard a thousand voices say a strange and foreign phrase that, in the necessary
coincidence of human history, was as American as it is Chinese."





As I indicated earlier, Carlson knew that Gung Ho was not something that could just be simply accepted, either by himself or his Marines--indeed, it had to be lived and mastered. On the occasion of the first anniversary of the 2d Marine Raider Bn, Carlson told his men, "...Most important, though, was the development of what we call the Gung Ho spirit; our ability to cooperate--work together. Not only was it imperative to understand this spirit; it was even more imperative to apply it to daily actions no matter how unimportant they might seem. This called for self-discipline and implicit belief in the doctrine of helping the other fellow. Followed through to its ultimate end it would mean that each while helping the other fellow would in turn be helped by him."

"It was in the matter of Gung Ho that we made our slowest progress, though progress we have made. We were handicapped by our native background, that background in which greed and rugged individualism predominated. Human beings are creatures of habit. Human nature does not change its coat without a struggle...The important thing was for each individual to have the desire to help the other fellow, the desire to achieve that mastery over his mind...This means tolerance of ideas, tolerance of personal eceenticities, the sweeping away of personal prejudices...Hand in hand with Gung Ho goes the willingness to endure hardship and pain in order that the hardest job may be accomplished as economically in terms of exterminating the enemy as possible...Finally, it was necessary to the success of of this military pattern of ours that the individual understand the reasons for which they fight and offer themselves for sacrifice..."

And, there was more, much more to Carlson's teaching of the Gung Ho spirit. May this short discourse have served to emphasize to you, to some extent, the depth and significance of the Gung Ho teaching of Evans F. Carlson.
*****





RELATED LINKS

Carlson Of The RaiderMarines
Makin IslandRaid/Executions
Dan Marsh's Marine RaidersSite
Marine Raiders-The Last ManCommittee
WWII USMC Marine Raiders Official WebSite

gunnyg
11-15-02, 11:42 AM
Maverick Marines:
The Controversial and Politically Incorrect Among Us!
Lieutenant Geneneral
Lewis B. "Chesty" Puller, USMC (Ret.)
Now, Chesty Puller is so well known to every Marine that just about anything that could be written here about him would be redundant. Outspoken and Outstanding, The Marine's Marine! What more could be said? Very little more, and much, much more, both answers would be correct at the same time.

But here is one thing that might be mentioned here. This is in regard to the infamous Ribbon Creek incident and court-martial of the 1956 Marine Corps . The following is neither as well known nor as often quoted as most other stories about Chesty Puller, yet it stands as much as any other to present a clear picture as to who he was and what he stood for, and what he always will be in the eyes and hearts of Marines everywhere.

"On the dimly moonlit night of April 8, 1956, a platoon of Marine recruits at Parris Island, South Carolina, was marched into a tidal arm of Broad River by a thirty-one-year-old veteran drill instructor, Staff Sergeant Matthew C. McKeon. Six recruits drowned."
McKeon had had several drinks of vodka that day, the CMC relieved the commanding officer of the recruit depot, and told Congress that McKeon would be punished.
McKeon was court-martialed.

Amid a nationwide public outcry regarding the whole matter of the drownings in particular and Marine Corps training practices in general, LtGen Lewis B. "Chesty" Puller was recalled to active duty to testify at the trial regarding Marine training and tradition. Mrs. Puller protested to her husband citing previous trouble and controversy in Puller's career. Puller told her, "...The important thing is the Marine Corps. If we let 'em, they'll tear it to pieces. Headquarters won't speak up. It's my duty to do it."

At the trial, Puller was asked questions pertaining to his own military service, the mission of the Marine Corps, the most important element of Marine training, etc. In part, Puller replied that:, "...The definition of military training is success in battle. In my opinion, it is the only objective of military training..."
He quoted Napoleon. "He stated that the most important thing in military training is discipline. Without discipline an army becomes a mob."
Puller was asked what he had learned here (PISC) as a recruit. He replied, "Well, the main thing--that I have rememberd all my life--is the definition of espirit de corps. Now my definition--that I was taught, that I've always believed in--is that espirit de corps means love for one's military legion. In my case the United States Marine Corps. I also learned that this loyalty to one's Corps travels both ways, up and down."

"Q: Now, general, I want you to assume that what is the evidence in this case is a fact. That on a Sunday evening a drill instructor took a platoon that was undisciplined and lacked spirit and on whom he' tried other methods of discipline. And that for purposes of teaching discipline and instilling morale he took that platoon into a marsh or creek--all the way in front of his troops--would you consider that oppression?
A: In my opinion it is not."
"Q: So, in your opinion, was this act of this drill instructor in leading his troops, under those conditions and for that purpose, good or bad military practice?
A: Good...
...I would train my troops as I thought--as I knew they should be trained--regardless of a directive."
"Q: ...I lead these recruits into water over their heads and I lose six of those men by drowning. Would you say that some action should be taken against me?
A: I would say that this night march was and is a deplorable accident."
"Q: Would you take any action against me if I were the one who did that, if you were my Commanding Officer, sir?
A: ...I think, from what I read in the papers yesterday of the testimony of General Pate before this court, that he agrees and regrets that this man was ever ordered tried by general court-martial."

"Puller went into the noncom's club that night with Berman, two Marine generals and other officers; the big crowd stood, shouting until he spoke:
'I've talked enough for today. This will be my last request. Do your duty and the Marine Corps will be as great as it has always been for another thousand years.'
The applause was deafening."

Re
The book, " Marine, The Life of Lt. Gen. Lewis B. (Chesty) Puller, USMC (Ret.)"
By Burke Davis, 1962, Bantam

lisawray
10-18-10, 06:35 PM
My beloved husband, Andy Mazzanti, was recruited by Jimmy Roosevelt ...
I miss him so much!!!! He passed away on our 21st wedding anniversary ...
Gung Ho meant that everyone worked together, there was no rank .. that was why they were so successful .. God Bless His Soul ...

lisawray
10-18-10, 06:37 PM
He was a Carlson's Raider, Fox Company ...2nd Battalion, Pacific Campaign

Supersquishy
10-18-10, 06:40 PM
HOLY FVCK BATMAN!!!! I was still in on this thread!!!! RIP, MARINE!!!!!!

lisawray
10-18-10, 06:53 PM
You live in my heart forever Andy ... we are one ... Semper Fi, my love and my life for 21 blessed years ... God Bless the USMC!!!! the Best and Bravest ...

USNAviator
10-18-10, 07:00 PM
You live in my heart forever Andy ... we are one ... Semper Fi, my love and my life for 21 blessed years ... God Bless the USMC!!!! the Best and Bravest ...

You have my deepest belated sympathies Ma'am

lisawray
10-18-10, 07:03 PM
I was just trying to explain how I as a widow of a USMC, am hurting, because of the loss of such a good man ... the USMC was everything to my husband. He served WW2, a long time ago, but he was the most incredible man I have ever met in my lifetime ...
God Bless, Semper FI

lisawray
10-18-10, 07:05 PM
Thank you so much .. I feel so alone most of the time ... Semper Fi ...

USNAviator
10-18-10, 07:29 PM
Thank you so much .. I feel so alone most of the time ... Semper Fi ...


You're welcome but may I ask if you are going to continue posting that you fill in your profile? It's the site rules. Thank you :thumbup:

lisawray
10-18-10, 07:34 PM
I'm in a state of grieving, so I'm not sure ... I'm not here for social interaction, but to state how much I love the USMC ...

lisawray
10-18-10, 07:36 PM
I can only say that Andy and God led me to this place ... when I was in a dark place myself ... God Bless the USMC ... I love you! Lisa

USNAviator
10-18-10, 07:37 PM
I'm in a state of grieving, so I'm not sure ... I'm not here for social interaction, but to state how much I love the USMC ...

Do you mind if I ask when your husband Andy passed away? Sorry Dave didn't see your question. Asked but not answered!

lisawray
10-18-10, 07:37 PM
February 12, 2010, on the date of our 21st Wedding Anniversary ... he was life flighted by helicopter to Geisinger Danville, PA

USNAviator
10-18-10, 07:45 PM
February 12, 2010, on the date of our 21st Wedding Anniversary ... he was life flighted by helicopter to Geisinger Danville, PA


Wow, that must have been such a tragic day for you. Once again accept my condolences

Another Marine site you might want to visit is Terminal Lance

lisawray
10-18-10, 07:51 PM
It has been an epiphany experience for me...I met Archangel Michael that day ... I wear his medallion for guidance, protection and wisdom ... the USMC is a brotherhood, and I am part of it by virtue of my husband. I have since learned that my grandfather was USMC WW1 and my great great grandfather fought in the Civil War .. actually won the Medal of Honor ... he mustered in as a volunteer at the age of 16 ...

lisawray
10-18-10, 07:53 PM
It's been a difficult day for me, and I thank God today for the USMC and USMC Brotherhood ... I am just a widow, grieving for the loss of my beloved husband ...

lisawray
10-18-10, 07:56 PM
Febuary 12, 2010 .. he passed (I had to make the decision to end life support .. which was very difficult) at 5:55pm

USNAviator
10-18-10, 07:59 PM
Lisa

You now need to fill in your profile please. Not all of it but enough for so the Marines here on LN at least know who you are.

Thank you

lisawray
10-18-10, 08:00 PM
I am writing to let you know that my husband, Andy has passed on to eternal life
February 12, 2010 at 5.55 pm.

Andy and I were married on February 12th, 1989. Andy and I were brought together in this life by God and what God puts together, in Spirit, can never be taken away from our hearts.

I woke up the morning of February 13th, 5:55 am, looked at the clock and realized it was the exact time of Andy's passing on from this world, to the Life of Our Eternal Spirit and I feel him with me. My heart is breaking, but when I think of Andy, my heart can be strong.

I've been reading the Prayer of St. Francis this morning, and realized that those words
are exactly meant for Andy and me ... when we met, He brought light into my darkness, brought hope where I was in despair, filled my heart with joy when I was sad. Where His heart was hardened by war and the travails of life, our love together brought us peace, faith, joy and light. - the fruits of the spirit, Gentleness, Love, Meekness, Peace, Longsuffering, Joy, Temperance and Goodness.

Andy is my best friend. I got to know so many facets of him as our lives unfolded together. He was a warrior, a father, a son, a husband, a lover, a spiritual man, a whole man - though his brain was devastated, his heart never failed a strong and steady beat though they checked it quite often, and we watched it on the monitors ... his heart was always beating strong and steady, and those who were with me at the end were amazed at it's power. It gave all of us strength, and hope for the future.

Once the decision was made where to take him, he was life flighted by helicopter from Tyler Hospital. The nurses, flight personnel and paramedics came out in their blue flight suits, and it was one of the most wonderful moments I will remember. They were like angels to me, carrying Andy by way of the heavens to where he needed to be for his final day. My hope was for him to leave this world in peace and peacefully, as he participated and witnessed much suffering in this life.

lisawray
10-18-10, 08:04 PM
I am just a widow, trying to survive the death of my beloved ... that is my profile ...

lisawray
10-18-10, 08:18 PM
I don't know ... I am grieving and was led here ... to the USMC Brotherhood ... I believe that God led me here ..

lisawray
10-18-10, 08:19 PM
I really don't know what you mean by a thread? Do you mean a Google Keyword Search? then that is probably what led me here ... I can't remember what i even put in ... grief does that to you ...

lisawray
10-18-10, 08:31 PM
Thanks Dave,

It means a lot to me .. the Brotherhood ... when I and the family knew it was the end, and there was no other solution, after they administered the drugs to slow the heart until death, the moment they pulled out life support, Andy and I became One person .. like it says in the Bible .. the 2 shall become as One .. we were different, as we joined together upon Death... I love Him Eternally ... and feel that I am part and parcel of the USMC ... I can't explain it logically, but feel it in my Soul ...

USNAviator
10-18-10, 08:37 PM
Thanks Dave,

It means a lot to me .. the Brotherhood ... when I and the family knew it was the end, and there was no other solution, after they administered the drugs to slow the heart until death, the moment they pulled out life support, Andy and I became One person .. like it says in the Bible .. the 2 shall become as One .. we were different, as we joined together upon Death... I love Him Eternally ... and feel that I am part and parcel of the USMC ... I can't explain it logically, but feel it in my Soul ...


Amen Lisa and I'm sure Andy is right there with you :thumbup:..

You take care of yourself

lisawray
10-18-10, 08:38 PM
We became One at the moment of his death .. 5:55 pm Archangel Michael was there... I can't expect you to believe it or understand it, as I never met the angel before myself ... it was pretty awesome ... I had to look him up on wiki to find out who he was! Never knew he is the most powerful of all angels :)

lisawray
10-18-10, 08:40 PM
It was written by my Husband ... I could never get him to write or talk about anything until an unidentified photo appeared in the Raider Patch .. he was in his early 80's .. I asked him to write the story for me, and then things started to unravel ...

lisawray
10-18-10, 08:43 PM
Thank you Dan O'Shea! I have received so many interpretations of the Bible from Jehovah's Witness to New Age ... some say Andy is nothing but dust to be resurrected, others say he is with me .. I only know the pain and sorrow I feel without him ... and the wonderful memories of the life we had together!

lisawray
10-18-10, 08:48 PM
Thank you Dave, I am hanging in there ... I've gone to the depths of my soul into a place you might have heard of ... Bardo.. it's a place where you are reborn .. I've been there once before ... it's different this time ... as I am 20 years older ...

USNAviator
10-18-10, 08:48 PM
Thank you Dan O'Shea! I have received so many interpretations of the Bible from Jehovah's Witness to New Age ... some say Andy is nothing but dust to be resurrected, others say he is with me .. I only know the pain and sorrow I feel without him ... and the wonderful memories of the life we had together!


Lisa we do have a connection. My wife Lorrie passed a few years ago. She was from Liditz PA. Is that anywhere near Danville?

lisawray
10-18-10, 08:51 PM
We might Dan,
Andy had a dear friend fro Lititz PA! I don't know how close that is to Danville, but it's pretty quirky ...Could Lorrie and Andy be with us? Where are you located?

USNAviator
10-18-10, 08:55 PM
We might Dan,
Andy had a dear friend fro Lititz PA! I don't know how close that is to Danville, but it's pretty quirky ...Could Lorrie and Andy be with us? Where are you located?


Virginia. But my two daughters live outside of Philly

lisawray
10-18-10, 08:58 PM
His name was Morris Frederick. From Lititz PA .. Lancaster ...
Outside Phila .. do you mean Chester Cty.?

USNAviator
10-18-10, 09:03 PM
His name was Morris Frederick. From Lititz PA .. Lancaster ...
Outside Phila .. do you mean Chester Cty.?

Yes, Downingtown. Is that in Chester Cty? We were going to build a home in Chadds Ford but settled for Virginia

lisawray
10-18-10, 09:09 PM
I am well familiar with Downingtown ... I also know very well where Chadds Ford is!
I'm hoping that you and your wife are happy in VA :) God Bless! Lisa
Signing off for the night ..

I would like to thank you for being there for me ... Semper Fi!
Remember the Marine Corps Birthday ... November 10th

Combat Jack
10-19-10, 01:05 PM
Holy ****! Raiders in WWII? Okay, respect. Those dudes were so me legit B.A's! All the respect to your husband, I must say.

DocGreek
10-19-10, 01:29 PM
:evilgrin:...COMBAT JACK, you're a phony, azzhole! Get the FVCK off "OUR" site!!!!....:evilgrin:

Combat Jack
10-19-10, 01:33 PM
Negative on the phony-ness there hombre. Legit Marine. And I was serious, I have alot of respect for the Raiders. Bummer you're so bent outta shape about...whatever it is.

Combat Jack
10-22-10, 08:36 PM
All I can say is..... :) . Touche DUDE.

deepthoughts
10-22-10, 09:50 PM
Let's just keep the gay shiit out of here, mmk??

http://i1201.photobucket.com/albums/bb349/kokomar79/111.jpg

deepthoughts
10-22-10, 09:52 PM
http://i1201.photobucket.com/albums/bb349/kokomar79/111.jpg

don't want to lose this one

jinelson
10-22-10, 10:24 PM
My apologies folks the so called Marines at TL have attacked in mass again tonight and Im by myself so it takes me a while to delete their stuff. Especially when they attack in mass.

Jim

kenrobg30
10-23-10, 10:39 AM
One of the reasons I'm losing interest in this, and a couple of other sites, is people like the ones you are trying to get rid of JIM. The ' Button Pushers, Garbage mouths, Would-be intimidators, and the Obscene phone sallers,' are alive and well, and have found a new home. The internet, and the cell-phone have opened new horizons for these dirt-bags, and I'm getting too old and my eyes are getting all the strain they need, reading the posts of the good people, who want friendly 'conversation' without the insults and attempts to make the rest of us look like fools. Huray for us ordinary people. S/F !! Ken