Lynndie England faces sentencing

[Shaffer]

FORT HOOD, Texas (Reuters) - U.S. soldier
Lynndie England, convicted of abusing Iraqis at
Abu Ghraib prison, faces a maximum ten-year term when the military jury decides her punishment on Tuesday.

England was found guilty on six counts on Monday, on charges that she "wrongfully posing for a photograph," including images in which she held a naked Iraqi prisoner by a leash and pointed to another inmate's genitals in the Abu Ghraib prison.

The publication of the abuse photos early in 2004 caused major damage to America's image abroad and England came to personify the scandal.

The prosecution had agreed to a plea deal in May this year in which England would serve no more than 30 months in confinement. The judge negated that deal after hearing evidence that suggested England may not have been guilty, thus a second trial began last week.

The military prosecutor said England humiliated prisoners because she enjoyed it and had a sick sense of humor, but her attorneys said she took part in the humiliation because of an overly compliant personality.

The defense said England blindly followed Charles Graner, the abuse ringleader and father of her 11-month-old child. Graner, who has since married another woman and pleaded guilty in the scandal, is serving a 10-year sentence.

England's case was the latest in a series of prosecutions or plea bargains of low-level soldiers who served at Abu Ghraib.

The military has also reprimanded a small number of higher-ranking officers but none has faced criminal charges, although at least one Army captain has said the abuse often occurred under orders or with the consent of superior officers.

The Army captain, along with two sergeants, recounted in a Human Rights Watch report on Friday how Iraqi inmates near Falluja were beaten with a baseball bat, stacked clothed in pyramids, deprived of food and water and put in painful positions until they fainted.

The captain, who served in Iraq and Afghanistan, said the abuse often occurred under orders or with the consent of superior officers. Human Rights Watch identified the captain as a graduate of the U.S. Military Academy at West Point, New York, who served is now at Special Forces school at Fort Bragg, North Carolina.

The jury in England's sentencing is hearing evidence on Tuesday from Graner, psychologists and others, perhaps including England, as they decide on her punishment.

Maj. David Auch, a doctor who visited once or twice a week in late 2003, described a lack of leadership at the prison and said "confusion existed throughout the time I was there."

"I do not condone what she (England) did but I do not think it is not appropriate to take into account the lack of leadership that this unit received," he told the jury in testimony for the defense.

Graner will speak for the defense next.

[Nagalfar]

Would it be out of line to say.. this is what you get when the Army gets to be in charge of something other than itself?

[mrbsox]

While I would LIKE to see 'time served', it must also be noted that the reality ofthe situation is that WE MUST PROTECT those in our custody.

The biggest problem may be that we (since we rely on the media) may never know if her actions help bring any information out that SAVED LIVES !!

If the news media ever screwed up and let 'the whole truth' be known, she would have wound up with an accomendation.

[Joseph P Carey]

These Soldiers!? Many of these people were jailers in civilian life; they knew better than what was happening. Hell! They took Photos of what was happening, and they sent them to a person that sold the photos to the first reporter he could broker a beal with! In all likelihood, the collective IQ of the whole bunch must be between a Potatoe and a Carrot. All of them deserve everything they got in the way of sentences, and more!

It was not like the whole unit was doing this, just this one section of perverts and low-lifes! You can not tell me that the other people did not receive the same orders, or requests, and said to the requestor, "Go to Hell!" when they were asked to do something like these peope were allegedly asked to do!

You can not tell me that this was the only unit getting any information out of the prisoners. If anything, they were probably getting less through their actions.

[Toby M]

Having retired from Law Enforecment and spending most of that time as a "jailer", I can honestly say "good riddence"! We didn't have anyone like these people working with us and anyone showing propencities for this type of behaviour would have been weeded out early in their careers. Law Enforcement is simply what it implies and all officers working in that field are sworn to do their duty-no matter what type of scum you are protecting! You are right Joseph P., they should have known better!!! I don't feel sorry for them...

[GySgtRet]

Lynndie England,

I do not think that this Solder should have been sentenced. I atribute this to lack of leadership in the Soldering of the guards at the prison. She is a scapegoat and that is all there is to it. Sure enough she knew that is was wrong. The blame game wemt downhill just like the political crap of everyday life with the Gulf War.

[MillRatUSMC]

I voted 1 to 5 because it would send the wrong message.
Then the court could amend it to time served.
Main reason, "she a mommy" and her child has a need for "mommy".

Semper Fidelis/Semper Fi
Ricardo

PS
I don't believe she has served any time in a correctional facuilty, dude to her being pregnant.

Semper Fidelis/Semper Fi
Ricardo

[EDNA TRIMBLE]

I think that since 9/11 we all have a certain dislike for the arab world and in certain aspects i think that this had a lot to do with these prisoners being mistreated all the rest of the soldiers just knew how to handle their feelings and a few who knew better didn't care and follwed thru on how they felt. they actually did deserve what they got . it is a shame that this young soldier will not be there for three years for her son. of course the news media had to exploit it as much as possible too just to start a big stink with the arab countries. this IS war and all the fallout that comes with it.

[USMC-FO]

I have to agree with the Gunny above. This all comes down to **** poor leadership and I also suspect some higher up collusion to cover their own sorry butts. Lynndie was a poor dump Pvt as I recall and also heavily under the influence of her "mentor" who we also know was doing the ole bump and grind with her. Bottom line, here she is, dumb as a bag of hammers, but a piece of meat the Army can railroad easily and toss out as an example of how they delt effectively with their own F ups in Iraq.

My guess here is that she'll get out on appeal in some manner or another. I certainly hope that is the case.

[Joseph P Carey]

I guess I will have to put my two cents into this again, least wise as far as poor leadership goes! As it happened, there were at most seven to ten soldiers that did not 'get the word' on how to treat prisoners. Some of those soldiers were Civilian Correctional Officers in their civilian jobs. These were Reserves who did not live under military law all the time, as did the Regulars. Again, these people knew better than to do what they did! This kind of behavior they exhibited would not have been accepted in a civilian prison, and they knew it was not accepted in a military prison.

In any case, the fingers all point to the one Sergeant, Charles Graner, that not only allowed this to happen, including the photographing of the crap his section pulled, but he also was screwing a subordinate and he got her Pregnant. There is no telling who else was tapping this woman of questionable IQ, but there is definitive proof that this Sergeant should not have been placed in charge of a Boy Scouts troop, much less US Soldiers.

As for the rest of his section, they knew better, and they did not report the incidents to the CO. There is not one record of any of this being reported to any officer of the unit. They knew it was wrong, and they all let it happen. They all deserve the maxiunm sentense for not being good soldiers, and for being stupid enough to thow away their good judgement and thier honor in the treatment of prisoners under the standards of the UCMJ.

I have no compassion for these people. They knew better!

[jegries]

A classic case of bad judgement. She knew she was doing wrong and she was caught. Even if she was ordered to act that way she should have gotten it in writing to cover her 6. This is why I feel reservists should not have that amount of resposibility or power.

[ggyoung]

They niver should have put the army in charge in the 1st place. The last 3 months of my 2ed tour in Vietnam (1969-70) I was transfered from H 3-11 to 3rd M.P.to work the brig. I was NCOIC of B block max securty. The army came up from LBJ to tack over the brig. Our last night night in country the VC gave us a little gift of some rockits and mortars. We the Marines had our rifles the army did not. They were locked up in thr armery. Now that is screwed-up.

[GySgtRet]

The Army's rifles were lockedup probably because they can't tell front from rear...


Semper Fidelis

[greensideout]

Have to agree with GySgtRet and USMC-FO. It goes up the latter to leadership. Did they know what was going on, duh! She takes the rap and the command above her skates away. Let her go home and suckle her child.

[Joseph P Carey]

With all due respect! If she wants equal pay, she takes equal responsibility! She knew she was doing wrong on two counts. She was screwing her Sergeant, which caused the baby, a violation of UCMJ, and she was posing for pictures like a dyke with naked prisoners! She deserves all she gets, and she deserves no special treatment because of the baby!

You would have an entirely different attitude, if they were American prisoners filmed in that manner, and she were an Arab! What would you think, if it were your son or daughter being stripped, having a dog collar placed upon their head, and being photographed for someone else's enjoyment of their own deviant sexual pleasures.

The Sergeant got ten years, and so should she! She was a US Soldier and she represents everyone of us in the USA. She is one of our ambassadors to the world, and she made us look sick! She provided the enemy with a treasure trove of propaganda against us.

[Nagalfar]

I agree Carey.. but, where are the officers in this? the higher the rank the higher the standard they should be held to should they not? we have heard nothing but denial from them, all the way to the top on this one.. are we to believe that they had no idea what was going on.. yes I know it's the Army we are talking about here, but we all know officers were there day in and day out, just like every other place.. whats the deal, we take a few NCO's and call it good? Army is getting to smell more and more like politicans and not much else anymore, kill a few scarificial lambs and call it good.. total BULL...

The Russians have a saying for this.. A fish rots from the head down.

[cockscap70]

What a farce! As far as I am concerned any and all involved in the abuse of prisoners at Abdul Graib should have gotten a commendation medal! When will the bleeding hearts realize that when you cotton to the radicals.. life only gets more radical, hence there will be that much more dying. Only the stupid will further the game of the taliban, and Al Quieda, and they (the stupid) will do so by dying for a couple of warlords that think they have the answer, and still in the same breath take out as many other people as they can, and everyone gets to die because of some as- holes misguided belief. If the people doing the suicide bombing, car bombing, and deploying the IED's can't abide the Geneva convention, then I say let Abu Graihb (and prisoners) rot in hell, but free our volunteer military from prison time. While that goes on, Get some! For your fellow volunteers, and for those locked up by the bleeding hearts who haven't a clue, and especially for those taken during 9-11 without the chance to fight back. SF, Dale

[Joseph P Carey]

I am no bleeding heart, and I believe if you are a Soldier, you act like a Soldier. They acted like criminals, like school yard bullies, and where the real strong cases of the Al Qaeda could have been dealt with in relative security with a heavy hand, and only seen as an aberration of the system, if it was caught, these people screwed the whole thing up, and much valuable information was lost because of them and their deviant behavior!

Screw them! Send them to the Brig for a long time, better yet, send them to a Marine Red Line Prison!

[junker316]

I voted "Time Served". Who is to say that they weren't ordered to do said actions. I wasn't there in the prison to witness anything. We may never know what really happened in our life time but probably by the time our grandchildern are our age then the truth will come out.

Worse has happened in colleges around the USA than happened in the jail house. How many girls have been caught running naked around campus drunk or guys been found passed out naked in backyards of private homes or worse???? How many "hazing" incidents have been caught in the military that would make what happened at the jail look like a child's game. Yes, I agree that we are there to protect those in need of protection or in our care. But after the drawn out time frame of all this "drama" it is like punishing your child at age 12 for something they did at age 4. It doesn't really make sense to me that it had to take this long to find even half a truth when it really seems to me that some-one is only trying to push blame on who ever they can instead.

[junker316]

I did forget to mention something to Carey...About being photographed or filmed. How about all those innocent non-combatants that were filmed by the enemy and were be-headed? Was that film enough for you. Or the planes that were used for rockets to collide into the World Trade Center? Or did you miss that part? I got to watch it repeatly when the second one came in while the NEWS crews were filming live footage of the first attack. How about the lives that were lost due to these terrorists? The lives that would be changed forever because of the loss of the mother, father, sister, brother, friend, or whoever was on the planes that were rammed into the buldings? At what point are we going to be allowed to fight a war without our hands being tied behind our backs because of some bleeding heart liberals who probably never stepped foot inside of a battlefield? I know that when I was there we were worried more that our own NEWS reporters were going to get us fried than we were the enemy. Every chance these idiots had they would try to film some " criminal activity" by our troops while defending the enemies right to kill us. Get with Carey. I lost enough friends and Brothers and sisters in a land that I knew was helping these terrorists. I say get the information from these extremists any way you can and get the War over with. There are worsde things than torture to get information. And what happened there was nothing compared to what I can think of doing to them to help save the lives of other fighting Americans. Terrorist didn't stop to think about killing all those innocent people. Can you tell me that you don't think about that. I am not saying what happened in the jail was right. I am saying that if it helped to save the lives of our fighting military members then it was worth it and they deserve nothing more than a discharge for poor judgement.

[CHOPPER7199]

RIGHT ON JUNKER. GOT TO AGREE WITH YOU.

[Joseph P Carey]

Junker,

You said, "I did forget to mention something to Carey...About being photographed or filmed. How about all those innocent non-combatants that were filmed by the enemy and were be-headed? Was that film enough for you."

Things are never fair or equal, but are you now equating the US Army and the United States Marine Corps with the Al Qaeda? We are professionals, not 'back desert' trash. We have a code that seperates us from that kind of animal. The Japanese make a big thing about beheading people; it is not the first time that we have faced such types, but to our good reputation, we did not fall to their level. until this bunch numbskulls came along!

Should you want to join the Al Qaeda Marines, I am sure that you can do just as they do, but in the end you will lose, both personally and professionally. As for me, I am proud of our Armed Forces just the way they are, professional!

And, for the record, it is not the first time that we have been attacked from the air with a surprise attack, and given our system of letting the other fellow have the first swing at us, it will not be the last.

You tell me Junker where do we go to get our reputation back when we sink to the level of that trash?

[greensideout]

.

[hrscowboy]

Gentlemen how many times did the Marine Corps have to bail out the US Army in Vietnam. I have seen it with my own eyes two many times and lord knows our beloved Marine Corps has had to bail these sorry Rats behinds out in numerous other things since Vietnam. If you look at the DOD reports everyday look how many Army is dieing in Irag in one day, Buttom line Our Marine Corps is the only service that teaches how to be a professional in what we do. CPL Carey is right if the Marine Corps had been running that brig it would have been red line and all this bull crap that went on would not have happened. Buttom line if one serviceman screws up we all pay, Just like in law enforcement you have one bad cop and all of us pay one way or another.

[Joseph P Carey]

GSO, I am very much a Marine thank you!

GSO wrote and accused me of not liking any Marine other than myself, if I ever was a Marine?

GSO, I may be a hard head, but I was a professional hard head, and all my bullet holes are in the front of me!

[greensideout]

ok

[junker316]

I didn't say that I did not agree with some of your views Carey. But I also don't believe that we as military fighting members should be compelled to let go the realization that this is not just any War and other means need to be found to help save the lives of those fighting for peace, even if it means to grab your straps and do something that we all know to be not completely correct. While I was in Iraq there were Iraqis there that helped me to understand the culture and the way of thier lives. It isn't easy to watch them die from the terrorists that were imbedded in thier society. They watched as whole villages were over run and slaughtered by these terrorists. They hated Saddum, they hated Bin Laden, they even hated what thier country was doing to them. They hated others for not helping them out of a bad situation. But even when they watched thier TVs at night and followed the NEWS via Iraq braodcasting they talked about it for a while. They even told me that they think that the terrorists deserve not to be treated like people but to be treated as they would treat any-one they had as a POW.
Maybe you don't quite understand that there is a big difference between the Nam War, WW II, and what is happening now. Terrorists are trained to live and die as they are told to. There is one common belief and that being that when they die they will be a MARTYR and go join Allah to recieve thier 72 virgins and palace for thier sacrifice. These terrorists have no guilt or remorse for taking human lives for any given reason. They refuse to listen to common sense or listen to efforts of peace. They believe that they are good and everything and everybody around them, that don't agree with them, are evil. They are willing to kill for the sake of some unseen person who has a vendetta against the world. You can't reason with a terrorist.
I agree that we should not stoop to the level of the terrorist but we should see that what we are doing isn't working to save US lives abroad. We have the NEWS crews in a battlefield filming live action and looking for reasons to back the bleeding hearts of America. Take Geraldo Rivera for an example. At what point are they going to show the real IRAQ and the real IRAQI that the US military deals with on a daily basis there. The NEWS like CNN leaves out all the good things that we are doing to help the IRAQI people like building schools and giving clothes donated from other citizens of our beautiful country to IRAQIs. Even the simplest things like given childern candy have a big effect on thier outlook on us. But in order to communicate with them you must first understand thier way of life.
There are so many things that we are doing there that doesn't reach the Americans back in the US. But let something like the ABU GAHRABI jail issue come out and everything is left behind. Suddenly we are the enemy and they have a right to fend us off because some idiots, ordered to or not, did something that not everyone agrees with. Like I stated before " we may never know the truth behind the jail issue". But it has also taken way to long for anything to really happen but a discharge for bad judgement. If it is issues like this, that will fill the Space available for other and better issues for the American public, then I would allow for the Discharge on grouds of poor judgement for all involved that are enlisted and find out who the real master mind was behind it all. We all know that Officers will protect thier own for whatever reason. There was definitely some one of higher rank than the NCO rank that knew what was going on and had a bigger part in it than the American public is being led to believe. I really don't think that they were a Rouge group of Soldiers doing whatever they wanted to do for whatever reasons. Some-one knew and if they ( the enlisted ) are going to be held accountable then the entire COC should have to be held accountable. They should all get the same treatment and sentenecing. Not just the scapegoats.
Also I don't believe that we should go back to barabrianism or afford our military members the right to treat any-one unfairly or be treated unfairly. But when the enemy attacks us with everything they got and kill the forces over there, American or who ever, then we should be alloted the right to gain information from the prisoners any way we can without killing or maiming them. Even if it means to belittle them or to process them in order to save lives of our military and civilian forces in Iraq and abroad. We can replace machinery and weapons but we can't replace the life lost of our members. Yes we chose this way of life but it doesn't mean that we should be fighting blind folded with our hands tied behind our backs either.

[hrscowboy]

I said it then and i will say it now, you cant take a National Guard Unit that is part time soldiers and expect them to know professional procedures if they dont practice it every day..

[Nagalfar]

Junkers, we have faced emenies who are trained to live and die as they are told to, check, Imperial Japan, they were without a doubt the most tenacious enemy we have ever encountered, and our beloved Marine Corps came though that SHINING brighter than ever, and now because of our rules of engagement and a lot of other horse*hit, you want the ability to be more like those we seek to kill? why? that would make us no better than them, we would just be the winners. War is War, its all about killing, we are once again in a guerilla war, Mao wrote a great book about how to fight one, it was written during the 50s if I remember right. If we are losing too many men(and I think we are) we shouldnt be willing to give up everything we have fought for since the time of Samuel Nicholas, are you are willing to trade all of that from then to now to be assured of winning something we are not losing? this is what guerilla war is.. there is not enough terrorists to fight it any other way, as much as we dont like it, they too are very smart as well, but we need to do what we have always done, use their game against them, and get our CIC to change these BS rules that are the cause of us losing so many of our brothers, but having the ability to torture is wrong I dont care how you slice it, it would make us just like them.

I agree with you about Abu Gahrabi, there is no way in hell command didnt know about this, but only NCOs are the ones being used as scapegoats, once again that points to leadership, or rather the lack of leadership with any Integrity, typical Army, thats why the Army is the Army. One thing that seems to get overlooked about Abu Gahrabi is the intel community was in there working in getting intel as well, and that fell silent very quickly.

Brother if we allowed our people to get intel any way they wanted what would make us no different from those we want to send to Allah, I would rather die on my feet, with my honor and integrity intact, both those DEMAND we live, and die if need by protecting both.. is that not part of being a Marine? for 230 years we have always came out on top, and shown they world why being a Marine is not like anything else in the world, we have paid for our honor and integrity in blood.. that will never change, and if it ever does we will no longer be what we have always been.

[junker316]

Nagafar,
I didn't say we should change but find a better way of dealing with who we are fighting. Guerrilla war fare is exactly that. War-fare with no terms or obligations towards life or taking life. As Carey stated " War is not fair or equal " and if being in war makes us demand fairness and equality then we have already lost American lives. I can understand and agree with your idealogy. I even agree that we are what we are because of what we do and being a Marine is something most will never achieve. To uphold our values is something we honor ourselves with and should not be changed because of terrorism. The Army, being a soldier prior to being a Marine, I know first hand what they believe and what they are capable of. I also agree that there shouldn't be untrained personnel gaurding very POWs for any reason. Any member of the miltary gaurding others should be well trained and be demanded upon that they are up to the tasks they are given. What I am saying is that we are facing foes that don't care and we need to find a way to deal with such humans that are willing to die for a cause that they hold higher than human life, even thier own. At what point will the military open thier eyes and see that what we are doing is a great thing but we need to still bring something better to the War than what we got. Keep CNN and Geraldo away from the Battlefield and leave us do our job. Keep those others that don't belong on the field away from it so that not only don't we have to watch over our shoulders for them but it let's us continue to complete our missions without covering thier 6's as well. I didn't mind them at a base or somewhere out of harm's way but when they are determined to interfere with those who do the missions then they need to add that to the daily news as well.
Once the Corps stood for Brotherhood and Defending our beautiful Nation from enemies foriegn or domestic. Now we are used to engage ourselves in Civil Wars of other Nations. It does state in the Geneva Convention that we are NOT to engage ourselves in affairs such as Civil War of Foriegn Nations but it does not say that we can't help out the Public of that nation and keep them from harm. We can be used as a peace keeping force which is a good thing. But keeping Peace isn't pursuing engagments of combat or chasing out the bad guys. What happened in the jail scandel was horrorific to the public. It was terrorifing to the ones it happened to. Only because they weren't used to it. But if they were in an IRAQI jail for something more than likely they would have been put to death without further due process and would have been found guilty of crimes that they didn't commit. These POWs were known to be either Terrorist or working with them. There was a reason for them to be put in the prison under, ridiculously undertrained, supervision. Where the order came from that they should be treated as they were no-ones seems to know. Why they were treated that way was brought public by the voices of the individuals who done it. Was there one person other than the ones accused sentenced for thier involvement? Was there other than the Female General who was to be in charge, in which her story was that she was told not to enter the jail by her superiors, not understand that something wrong was goning on? On which stand was it then that the Marines should have been in charge? Would it have actually been any different if a Marine was ordered to commit acts of violence or derogritory acts against these inmates? We follow orders do we not? When a General or another Officer would have told a group of Marines to commit such acts and they would not have then what? NJP, UCMJ, Court Martial for not following orders, what do you think would have happened? These same people who ordered these acts would have covered thier tracks as they did on the soldiers and the Marines would have lokked as if they aggressively attacked these poor terrorist and people helping them. So instead of thinking that us Marines would have done better think of the major outcome. Some-one would have gotten fried for either doing as they were told or gotten fried for disobeying a direct order, and under war time the latter can end up very different for the Marine. This happens in the Corps now a day while in Garrison what makes you think it wouldn't happen in a War environment? Only there some-one could do something far more drastic to make sure that they wouldn't get caught. So Lyndsey was getting done by her NCOIC, so she was pregnant before the end of everything, so she was stupid enough to believe what her superiors told her was right. Who should really pay for the crimes commited? The ones who commited the crimes or the ones who told them to commit the crimes. The Marine Corps should never change except to get better at what we do. The Army has alot to learn and hopefully they will learn it real soon. I have seen for myself what they do and it isn't pretty. But can you really blame undertrained individuals, not matter what job they had in the civilian world, when compared to being ordered to do it. Especially when you are trained to follow orders no matter how ignorant they may seem to be.

[Joseph P Carey]

Junker,

My Dad fought the Imperial Japanese Forces in the Second World War. They truly were well disciplined soldiers that were bound by the code of Bushido to die for Hirohito. They fought on with nothing when all was lost, and when it was convenient to them to not be captured they dispatched themselves with a Harakiri knife, but till the day my Dad died in the late 70's, my Dad still said of the Japanese that they were good soldiers, but wasted by their country.

I, and my brother, fought against the VC and the NVA, and our collective opinion of them is that they were not good soldiers. There was no day in the history of the Vietnam War that had we had our way, we could not have just rolled up the North Vietnamese Army all the way to Hanoi, and ended the war. They were murderous SOBs that killed innocent villagers; their sappers ran at our positions with charges attaches to their chests and blew themselves up in the wire; and, they had little children carry grenades into groups of Soldiers and Marines. It was nothing very different in what you face in Iraq; it was only on a smaller scale because they could not load cars with great amounts of explosives. We had to recognize the signs of booby traps and panji stakes, and we had to deal with an enemy that would not come out and fight. And, when the enemy did come out to fight, they were thrown back with force that only the Americans could throw at them. They too were torturers and head cutters, although they did not do it on film like the Islamist, that you have encountered, but they did it just the same.

They are not hoping for a military win in Iraq through a military means. They are hoping for a victory to be given to them like our Congress gave to the North Vietnamese in South Vietnam. Even the Number Two man in the Al Qaeda has said this in a recent communiqué.

It is your job, as it was mine and my bother's job in Vietnam and my Dad's in the South Pacific and my Uncle's in Korea, to stand the line; to keep your morale up, and to send as many of the Bastards to the Hell of their own choosing as you possibly can. We are a professional Military, with a code of conduct, and a spirit that shall never be matched in any part of the world.

These people like these scumbags in the Army should be punished to the full extent of the law. The best they can say is that they were told to condition the prisoners for interrogation, they chose the method, and they were way out of line with the code of military conduct that we died and bled for. They should be sent to the Brig for a very long time.

Don't cry to me about what a terrible job you have in Iraq, because of the orders you have received, or the orders that anyone else has received. We all know our jobs, and I would not have done what those scumbags did, because I would have known it was not being professional to do so. The best they can all say is that a Sergeant told them to do it, and no one heard anyone else order them to do it, and I am sure no one ordered them to take photos of their crimes and to send them to another scumbag that immediately sold them to the highest bidder in the media.

Remember, it was not the media that uncovered this; it was the scumbags that did it that sent the media an invitation to do so!

[hrscowboy]

Your war Sgt Junker is very much like ours only difference we had jungle to contend with and like Cpl Carey stated bobbie traps out the arse not too mention wild animals the heat and 6 months of solid rain during monsoon season. Then of course the going into villages to find that every living adult had been decapitated and the small children left to starve. we didnt have the advanced equipment that you have, We had hand me down junk, We didnt have bullet proof vest or so called bullet proof helmets or night vision either. There was also a Lt Calley that killed a bunch of people in ditch at Mi Ly and he too stated his upper command ordered him and his men to do the Killing and too my recollection he was the only one that was charged no one else. Its a shame that I was not on the review board when sentencing came down on her cause i would have been asking for alot more time then what she got. So I ask you Sgt Junker what makes your iraqie war any different then ours.. Buttom line MARINES ARE PROFESSIONALS AND WE DONT DO THAT KIND OF BULL CRAP.. enuff said..

[junker316]

CAREY AND HRSCOWBOY,
The is no crying or any comparision to Nam that I can find. I have talked to my Dad who served in Nam as well and he stated the same....we had better equipment and other items to our disposal that you he didn't. As for World world 1 or 2, My grandfather served in WW2 and when we talked about some of the things he saw or did there was always things left out. He would never talk much about it except that he was there and that it wasn't something he wished on any-one. He also fought the Japanese and thought that they were very loyal to the cause they believed in. Whether the Japanese fought with rifles or swords they were always ready to attack or defend a position or an island. In Nam, from what I understand from other family members that fought there and returned, it wasn't all that nice. There were alot of things that happened that they wouldn't talk about either but there was times when the description they gave was of a hell of a mess and being there wasn't a vacation. they had jungle and villages that supported the North Veitnamese, or were forced to, but the end almost was the same. Much blood shed and death. I am not ignorant of past wars. I have had family in most of them. I don't take away from any Vet what they have done and never compare one to the other, as you two seem to be doing. I never brought in the Japanese, because they are a very loyal, and honorable people. My Dad topld me that China was backing North Viet Nam and even sent troops to help them. The Question was about the Jail in ABU GARHABI not a comparison of whose War was worse. Each one of us did or seen things that changed us. Not one War was worse than the other. Just the Years that it happened, the equipment that was used, and the enemy that our nation is fighting. In each from what I know there has been lose of life.
So I would appreciate that you don't try to call me on the carpet for something that at a Time frame I was created during. I can thank much to the ones that were there before me. For the chance to change things that our Government now does for it's Vets. Even during my Time of Combat things have been popping up to help the Combat Vet. Things that weren't there during the Gulf War. I won't disagree with you on alot of things mentioned. But when you attempt to construe an attempt to compare your days in Nam to my days in Iraq allow me to point out there is none. To me any lose of life is unmeasurable. It was a life that went in a very terrible way. A life that will be grieved for many years to come and hopefully never forgotten. I would die for my country, as you would have, for reasons that I don't care to explain. Every War is a horrifing thing that brings death and destruction to the area it is in. We have just been lucky enough to keep it mainly out of American Soil.
I can see that we view the issue on ABU GAHRABI differently and I can accept that. My views are my views and I wanted to give you a reasoning for my point of view. Not just sit there and say something without further measures to show where my views are coming from. I asked questions in hopes to find answer and have some-one other than myself to think about those questions. These are the same questions that I have asked myself since the issue started. Where was the COC in all this and where do they stand? How can a General say that she knew something wasn't right and not take steps into finding out what? Yes the Criminals chose the method on which they are being charged. The idiots took pictures and some-one felt abd and came forth with them. I think they deserve punishment, but to what extreme. There is a truth out there somewhere that has been hidden. If you watched teh Discovery Channel the other night you would have seen the incident about the USS Indianaplis. It was said back after all the Sailors were recrued after days of torment while floating in the Ocean that thier Captain was at fault. That Captain killed himself a few years later. The Men of the ship gathered and fought the conviction and won thier Captain to be proven innocent. All because the higher ups didn't want to damage thier careers at the time and needed a scapegoat. So an innocent man was charged and convicted after a terrifing ordeal and losing many of his men. It wasn't bad enough that he got to watch his men die but to be convicted for not following orders. This I use as an example to ask at what time was the higher ups of ABU GAHRABI going to step up to the plate and fulfil thier duties of running the jail? Instead there was abuse and torture of the POWs and pictures to back up thier bragging when they got home. They were alolowed to run wild by thier superiors and allowed to do anything to each other the way it looks as well. My final qeustion being " Why just nail the enlisted when, as a military member, we all know that some-one higher than them allowed them to get away with or ordered them to do it".

[Nagalfar]

I agree with holding the Army brass that was involved in A.G. accountable, in fact I strongly feel the higher the rank, the higher the accountablility should be.. but, what do I know... and we need to remember, we are dealing with the Army here, much like your example of the Navy, it would seem both of those have long historys of doing this very type thing, typical, sacrifice a few lambs to appease the Gods of the press, ane everone else run for cover, I wouldnt count on much being changed anytime soon.

[ggyoung]

What ever it takes to save American lifes is justafied. Do any of you have sons or daughter over there. I have. one a Marine and in the Navy.

[Joseph P Carey]

Junker

As I have stated before, but you did not read between the lines in one of my posts: "I am no bleeding heart, and I believe if you are a Soldier, you act like a Soldier. They acted like criminals, like school yard bullies, and where the real strong cases of the Al Qaeda could have been dealt with in relative security with a heavy hand, and only seen as an aberration of the system, if it was caught, these people screwed the whole thing up, and much valuable information was lost because of them and their deviant behavior!"

To spell it out for you, we have always known of the use of Torture, and when used properly, by the experts, with no witnesses, and no POW to tell his story to a hungry reporter or legal representative, and no body left to examine, and when used judiciously, it has its uses and it is effective. BUT, these Rumdumb Soldiers with their childish attempts at S&M and Sexual Deviation, with a flare to publicize their activities was not the answer, and it never will be.

The CIA is not us, and it surly was not these Scumbags from the Army Reserve. They created a look-see into a very secret process, and by their amateurish actions may well have ruined any chances to extract information from other Al Qaeda Operatives. Sometime, the thought of what lies ahead is more so unbearable than the actual event. In this case, they conditioned the prisoners to withstand what was next.

It is professionalism that counts, not crap like they did! If you equate what they did as an effort to extract information, you are surly not in the know of how to get information from a true believer. These antics by these few Soldiers gave the enemy prisoners solidarity in a cause that many did not believe in, or have before, but would now follow.

This is the very reason why they do not take a civilian and put a uniform on him and call him a Marine, because solidity of cause must be worked into a Marine. First, it is us against them, THEM is the DIs the jailors or whatever you want to call them at the time, and when this solidity turns into a unit of men with a single cause, a purpose, a belief of knowing that they have seen the worst there is to offer and they have done it as a unit, then, it is that unit of bonded men, this brotherhood of circumstances formed as an elite unit against the enemies of this country both foreign and domestic. Then, and only then does that civilian cease to be, and Marine is born.

These Numbskulls did all they could do to help the cause of the Al Qaeda, and they never knew it! They should be sentenced to the worst they could possibly receive in the way of punishment. To date, none of them have said they received orders from their officers, only from an unknown, and unnamed source.

[junker316]

Carey I agree that these S&M wanna bes went through a degree of stupidy. They were doing things tha wasn't right and unprofessional. They acted in a barbaric way towards thier known efforts and need to be dealt with. Within means. But as I stated if they are to take the fall for everything, and they did equate thier side of the story, then the brass should also fall. Some-one else know and let it all happen. Some-one else possibly ordered it and decided to try to hide thier tracks. Justice i sjust when all invloved fall for the same reason not just a choosen few used as scapegoats.

[Joseph P Carey]

Carey I agree that these S&M wanna bes went through a degree of stupidy. They were doing things tha wasn't right and unprofessional. They acted in a barbaric way towards thier known efforts and need to be dealt with. Within means. But as I stated if they are to take the fall for everything, and they did equate thier side of the story, then the brass should also fall. Some-one else know and let it all happen. Some-one else possibly ordered it and decided to try to hide thier tracks. Justice i sjust when all invloved fall for the same reason not just a choosen few used as scapegoats.

Unfortunately, you are under the impression that these Reserve Soldiers are loyal Soldiers; they gave up every one they could (They would have given up their own mothers) to stay out of jail, and not one of them gave up their officers. Instead they all laid it on their Sergeant, and he laid it on some mysterious CIA operative. They were nothing but Lowlife Pigs at work, and they enjoyed their work soooo much!

True, an Officer should have been on duty, but we all know that sometimes Officers are not present, and the Sergeant is in charge. In this case, I would think that they waited until their officer was not present to do their hooliganism.

[ray"doc"]

Lynndie - a woman in a play of cold war ... but a very good soldier !

[Joseph P Carey]

If Lynndie is a good soldier, then Horse Crap is a gourmet’s dinner!

[jegries]

It was an order that violated basic human rights and as a soldier she should recognize an unlawful order when its given. It is every service members duty to disobey an order if it is UNLAWFUL!!!

[jegries]

Have we not learned anything from My Lai. For those who are rusty in history its the village in Vietnam that was wiped out everylast man,woman and child on the orders of thier chain of command.

[junker316]

Unfortunately, you are under the impression that these Reserve Soldiers are loyal Soldiers; they gave up every one they could (They would have given up their own mothers) to stay out of jail, and not one of them gave up their officers. Instead they all laid it on their Sergeant, and he laid it on some mysterious CIA operative. They were nothing but Lowlife Pigs at work, and they enjoyed their work soooo much!

True, an Officer should have been on duty, but we all know that sometimes Officers are not present, and the Sergeant is in charge. In this case, I would think that they waited until their officer was not present to do their hooliganism.
No I am not saying that they are LOYAL Soldiers. If they were then not one name woulkd have came out of thier mouths. What I am saying is that they probably felt that if they were going down then they would take down every-one invloved.
I agree with you about England not being a good soldier. She is the ideal peace of SH%& that we don't need in our military. Her and the rest of her group. Honor and Loyality is not what they showed. They did show Commitment though Even though when the bricks fell there was not one once of Courage to be seen. The Sergeant may have been in charge and was having way to much fun doing whatever it was he was doing. Look at England's pregnancy. He must have been something. So what is the TRUTH in this all. There is definitely more than what is being told. That is what I am saying. We can sit around discussing this every minute of the day without a further conclusion. I know that I'm not right nor is any-one else. Opinions are all we are giving. Whether there was or wasn't an Officer present some-one knew or ordered this to happen. Rougue groups in any branch of the US Military is very seldom and are not tolerated. Most are found out and then names roll from the lowest of Privates to the Highest of Officers. To me it really doesn't matter who did what. It happened and there was proof of it. Bragging rights to say. That is what the case is being based off of. Pictures.
But at least there has been a little justice since this came to light.

[ray"doc"]

Yes Lynndie make torture and that was very very wrong. Yes lynndie have flaw. Yes lynndie do this and this and this.

All time in a war is torture. … after the war (asia, mia pow …) my wife, my childrens and i commig to germany. A men kill my wife, my childrens. I meet the killer by german police - no fight!

The war after the war , day by day. My soldiers in war are die, my best friends die, my wife die, my body broken, my live broken. My hard - day by day a hell !

A lot of soldiers are young, very young and a lot of wars in this world was a job for the best oft the best but not for young people. Mr. präsident bush identify this aspect, a lot oft “old” figther too. More vets must do this job.

But lynndie, a young soldier. … a lot of young soldier in a war , in a big big war.

Yes we can not understand lynndie , we can say what you do it wrong but

we must say: lynndie welcome home ! Why we dosend do it ?

[Joseph P Carey]

Yes Lynndie make torture and that was very very wrong. Yes lynndie have flaw. Yes lynndie do this and this and this.

All time in a war is torture. … after the war (asia, mia pow …) my wife, my childrens and i commig to germany. A men kill my wife, my childrens. I meet the killer by german police - no fight!

The war after the war , day by day. My soldiers in war are die, my best friends die, my wife die, my body broken, my live broken. My hard - day by day a hell !

A lot of soldiers are young, very young and a lot of wars in this world was a job for the best oft the best but not for young people. Mr. präsident bush identify this aspect, a lot oft “old” figther too. More vets must do this job.

But lynndie, a young soldier. … a lot of young soldier in a war , in a big big war.

Yes we can not understand lynndie , we can say what you do it wrong but

we must say: lynndie welcome home ! Why we dosend do it ?

With all due respect Ray 'Doc', I was 18 when I fought in Vietnam, and I wounded twice before my 20th Birthday. I was in the middle of a great deal of fighting, and I was led mostly by Noncommissioined Officers, because we had few Commissioned Officers in our ranks. Still, we were guided by our honor to protect the people we were there to protect, and as my Colonel, Colonel Peatross, told me when I first arrived, "We are not in this country for Mom's Apple Pie, or the Flag, or because we were invaded. We are here because their country asked us for help! It is our honor as Marines to do the best we can for them, and to not persecute the Vietnamese People, but to destroy their enemies! And, that you will do as best you can for the honor of the United States Marines!"

I was 18, and I knew what the war was about, and never once did I fail to do my duty, nor did I do anything to feel regretful over. Every person I killed had a rifle in their hands or was involved in an attack with the enemy.

These people did not receive orders to do these activities, and they sure as hell did not receive orders to take photos of what they did, and to give them to the press. These were bad soldiers, including Lynndie. They were not only bad Soldiers, they were stupid Soldiers as well, and they deserve to be sent to prison for as long as is required of them. They had no HONOR!

[bigalholmes165]

Yes Lynndie make torture and that was very very wrong. Yes lynndie have flaw. Yes lynndie do this and this and this.

All time in a war is torture. … after the war (asia, mia pow …) my wife, my childrens and i commig to germany. A men kill my wife, my childrens. I meet the killer by german police - no fight!

The war after the war , day by day. My soldiers in war are die, my best friends die, my wife die, my body broken, my live broken. My hard - day by day a hell !

A lot of soldiers are young, very young and a lot of wars in this world was a job for the best oft the best but not for young people. Mr. präsident bush identify this aspect, a lot oft “old” figther too. More vets must do this job.

But lynndie, a young soldier. … a lot of young soldier in a war , in a big big war.

Yes we can not understand lynndie , we can say what you do it wrong but

we must say: lynndie welcome home ! Why we dosend do it ?

With respect (this time) ray"doc", but would you explain your avatar AND profile.:confused:

Age:
39
Years of service in the Marine Corps?:
1984-1994 Asia
Duty Stations:
VC, SOG, Delta
Wars & Conflicts you were in (if any):
Cambodscha, Africa, Iraq
Favorite Food:
Milk
Favorite Color:
Black
Biography:
Born 1996 Germany; go in war 1984; return 1994 Germany; in July 1994 a killer die my wife and my childrens; now ... i survived in germany and help vets
Location:
Trier Germany
Interests:
Survival
Occupation:
psych. Doc. / Veterans help



.

[Joseph P Carey]

With respect (this time) ray"doc", but would you explain your avatar AND profile.:confused:

Age:
39
Years of service in the Marine Corps?:
1984-1994 Asia
Duty Stations:
VC, SOG, Delta
Wars & Conflicts you were in (if any):
Cambodscha, Africa, Iraq
Favorite Food:
Milk
Favorite Color:
Black
Biography:
Born 1996 Germany; go in war 1984; return 1994 Germany; in July 1994 a killer die my wife and my childrens; now ... i survived in germany and help vets
Location:
Trier Germany
Interests:
Survival
Occupation:
psych. Doc. / Veterans help



.

You haven't figured it out yet, Al? They allow anyone on this board, even the enemy! Did you ever read this guy's websight with the booby traps and such? Last time I called someone out as a fraud on this board, I got booted!

[enviro]

I've got some really bad news for the bleeding hearts out there - There are MANY things we do that you may think are "unprofessional". For the purpose of keeping things where they should be (classified) I will not elaborate. The mission is accomplished day after day by actions covert in nature. You'll sleep easier that way.

What tripe to respond to a comment about the enemy beheading our people by saying we should take the higher road. F**K the higher road! This nation will fall on that higher road! When I came home with blood on my hands, I still had my head. And I'll be damned if a prisoner in my custody is going to keep information from me that would save the lives of our Marines.

Chop off HIS head and he gets 70 virgins. Make him rub his pen|s in front of a woman and he'll squeal like a pig. Not a hard decision for me to make. Only difference is that the glory of saving our Marines is all I need. I don't need commemorative photos and your approval. You don't need know what happened!

We fight fire with fire - plain and simple. The only thing these part-time soldiers did wrong was let their actions get out to the public at large. If you think the PFC and/or SGT came up with this plan to torture without direction from the top, then you must be one of the ones that believes Al Gore invented the internet.

And these incidents WERE reported up the chain of command. Many have had Article 15's (NJP), reprimands, and court-martials. Officers did know and/or should have known. There is know way in this damn Marine Corps would my CO not know this was going on in his area of responsibility, let alone the officers below him not knowing. Of course, I wasn't at AG but I find it hard to swallow.

All of the "unprofessional" sh|t I've ever done wasn't without the help of others - including officers. But what happens in __________ stays in _________!

Just like this SSGT punk writing a book about it. No honor..... He's profiting off of it. He was there just like the rest of us pulling the damn trigger and high-fiving afterwards. Now he wants to take the "high road" and make some damn money off of it.

Screw him and anyone else that criticizes what we have to do over there to survive. He's alive and he should be damn greatful for it. Others weren't so lucky.

Plain and simple - If I ever had the luxury of running across the ******* who set the IED that put Seeley in his current condition, I would beat him with the butt of my rifle until he was barely alive and then cut him from stem to stern for his family to see. And I'll sleep easy at night.

You want "Professional" fighting? Go back to the days where British troops lined up in line against American troops and shot at each other until the last man was standing. SENSELESS! The objective now is the same as it was then - kill more of them than they kill of us. We just have to play by a different set of rules. They sure aren't playing by the book.

[CHOPPER7199]

Hmm, Interesting Profile For Ray Doc, Born In 1996 Went In Service In 1984. Made Mayor In 10 Yrs. Just Thinking People. I'm An Old Grunt.

[Joseph P Carey]

Enviro,

The most unprofessional thing on the board was someone saying some things out-loud that should not be said. I'd be damned if I would trust you with anything; you have a loose lip! Use that head of yours for something other than a decoration!

[junker316]

ALRIGHT ALREADY. Things are as they are. Every-one has opinions that are simply put. But then it becomes personal and indifferent.

[bigalholmes165]

Ding!

... and here we go again!!!:devious:


.

[Nagalfar]

enviro your wrong brother, our brothers came though WW2 after having faced for worse, the JIA, and in most every condition, and they kicked arse from end of the pacific to the gates of the Japanese Imperial Palace., we never did what the Japanese did, NEVER.. that is where the word honor comes from, the words you yourself use >>Just like this SSGT punk writing a book about it. No honor<<, IF we act like those who seek to kill our families and us, how are we ever any different? we are only stronger, and that makes us what? right? or just stronger?... brother think about what you are saying.. ACT LIKE THE RAGs do.. ?? why? we have a long history of being better and more honorable than every enemy we have fought.. you are really willing to trade 230 years of honor, tradition and integrity for a easy win? (if there is such a thing) really? no way... not me. Some things are worth the price of admission, and we accepted those costs when we became Marines, we took our chances, and now it is the turn of our brothers and sisters who are now serving to do the same, to carry on what they have been given by all the Marines who came before them, I very much want all of them home, safe. but I am sure they would rather come home having not been like the rags, things like burning bodies I could care less go for it.. but when we start taking heads like the Japanese, or the rags.. we are one in the same, just stronger and nothing more than those we fight against.

[jegries]

Its clear that her orders were inmoral, inhumane, and illegal. That given she had a resposibility not to follow the orders plain and simple. We travel the higher path cause we are better than them. We show compassion when they don't therefore making us better as humanbeings.

[enviro]

Joseph P Carey, I wouldn't p|ss on you if you were on fire. You and I won't ever see eye to eye especially after you accused me of being "just like Al-Qaeda" a while back. I personally don't like you. You come on here and put down everything you get your hands on. You slam-dunk legitimate questions from poolees and parents, while riding high on the "you're not good enough to make it kid - so quit"

I make every effort to try to stay away from you but can't help myself sometimes. I don't comment on your experiences because I wasn't there. I do know my experiences and I stand behind everything I said.

I don't think we should converse any longer.

[enviro]

Nagalfar - We (the American military) have beaten and tortured the enemy since the beginning. In every war, in every climb, and in every place. Of course, we have never had so many cameras and media before either.

Even using your own example - we rounded up every Japenese citizen in the US and put them into internment camps. We beat some of them and killed some of them.

Not our finest hour. War is NEVER our finest hour. Death is death, I find no more honorable way to kill someone other than to kill them.

I'm not an advocate for breaking the rules - I know I may have sounded like that last night. I just wanted to point out that sometimes things have to be done outside the book to accomplish the mission. I can't give a hard answer as when that time is right, I just have learned to recognize it when I see it. I do understand the consequences of such actions as well. We can only hope and pray that EVERYTHING we are doing over there is for the right reasons.

Peoples opinion of the right thing to do vary. Some people think we should have never gone. Many comments on this board have been to the tune of "nuke 'em all" - All of which are easy to make sitting back here in the comfort of our own freedom. Monday Morning Generals - we have many of them. I especially can't stand the ones that think we should have deployed a million troops to Afghan to find Osama. Anyone who's been in that terrain would laugh their ass off.

[ggyoung]

Nagalfar In WW11 Some Marine units take pows some would not. Those that would not KILLED them on spot.

[Joseph P Carey]

Joseph P Carey, I wouldn't p|ss on you if you were on fire. You and I won't ever see eye to eye especially after you accused me of being "just like Al-Qaeda" a while back. I personally don't like you. You come on here and put down everything you get your hands on. You slam-dunk legitimate questions from poolees and parents, while riding high on the "you're not good enough to make it kid - so quit"

I make every effort to try to stay away from you but can't help myself sometimes. I don't comment on your experiences because I wasn't there. I do know my experiences and I stand behind everything I said.

I don't think we should converse any longer.

In your own words, you are just like them! You've gone Native! Whether you like me or not, take the advice I have given you!

[junker316]

In your own words, you are just like them! You've gone Native! Whether you like me or not, take the advice I have given you!
Okay I have a question Joseph Carey...What do you mean by " gone Native "? Are you comparing the American Indian to the terrorist of these nations that have conducted horrific acts in order to frighten the public and kill innocents? The American Indian fought to keep the land the were living on before the Government decided that they were to be forced to live in pavority on Reservations. The Natives of our Country didn't have to much of a choose. It was either follow these strange rules and regulations of a man that came from some-where other than thier land or die fighting for the very freedom that we protect today. So please watch your expressions when refering to certain issues. Barbarism is common and a direct refraction to the actions of torture and such issues. Being Native is not. :confused:

[junker316]

By the way...who is this ray"doc" that can't seem to get his dates right? Is he just on here playing games or is he some-one that needs some serious math lessons? Born in 1996 but served in the Corps as a marine 12 years before he was conceived? I've heard of miracles but this one is way outta my league. :thumbdown

[Joseph P Carey]

Okay I have a question Joseph Carey...What do you mean by " gone Native "? Are you comparing the American Indian to the terrorist of these nations that have conducted horrific acts in order to frighten the public and kill innocents? The American Indian fought to keep the land the were living on before the Government decided that they were to be forced to live in pavority on Reservations. The Natives of our Country didn't have to much of a choose. It was either follow these strange rules and regulations of a man that came from some-where other than thier land or die fighting for the very freedom that we protect today. So please watch your expressions when refering to certain issues. Barbarism is common and a direct refraction to the actions of torture and such issues. Being Native is not. :confused:

You have a very ethnocentric point of view, Junker, not everything has to do with the USA. "Gone Native" basically means adopting the life style of the country you are in, and the people therein. It is an old expression, and it probably pre-dates the American Indian Wars. Even in the US Marines, it was used to describe certian members of the Shanghai Marines from the 1920's and 1930's that adopted the Chinese way of life, including living with Chinese girls and having Chinese Children, which was pretty much frowned upon in those days of segregation in the USA. Now, if you have gotten your exercise by jumping to conclusions, you can take a rest now, "the Smoking Lamp is lit!"

[Nagalfar]

Nagalfar In WW11 Some Marine units take pows some would not. Those that would not KILLED them on spot.

ggyoung, I dont have any problems with this pratice, there are times when taking a POW is threat, when in doubt always error to the safe side, just like leaving enemy wounded behind you, not something to be done. I really dont have a problem with this.. what I am referencing are the beheadings, institutionalized torture and deliberate filming of those about to be killed "to make a point of terror by showing the victims terror prior to and during killing".. we all know what is done in the field is one thing.. but to allow anything like this to become institutionalized is wrong from the word go.. that is what I am referencing.. sorry if I didnt give enough clairity on the point I was trying to make.

[junker316]

Joseph Carey FYI...I wasn't jumping to any conclusions. Simply put. I was not aware of this saying but am aware that there is one " To do as Romans do in Rome". If there have been any "jumping to conclusions then it has been you. I asked you a question with an example in case you were comparing, since you like to do that sort of thing, and, as before, you want to ride off into the distance with head in your third point of contact. A simple answer would surfice without the extras. Maybe Enviro has a point, which I would hope not, that you seem to put down everything some-one else says. So far you and I have been at each other on this issue for some time now. I enjoy your little tid bits of info and have learned some from you but this is starting to get a little stupid. Maybe from here on out I will ask some-one else the questions so I can get a proper answer without having to fight through the red tape.

[Joseph P Carey]

Joseph Carey FYI...I wasn't jumping to any conclusions. Simply put. I was not aware of this saying but am aware that there is one " To do as Romans do in Rome". If there have been any "jumping to conclusions then it has been you. I asked you a question with an example in case you were comparing, since you like to do that sort of thing, and, as before, you want to ride off into the distance with head in your third point of contact. A simple answer would surfice without the extras. Maybe Enviro has a point, which I would hope not, that you seem to put down everything some-one else says. So far you and I have been at each other on this issue for some time now. I enjoy your little tid bits of info and have learned some from you but this is starting to get a little stupid. Maybe from here on out I will ask some-one else the questions so I can get a proper answer without having to fight through the red tape.

Education is a wonderful thing; it is so much better when it is shared. I can't say the same thing for ignorance.

[Tudy]

I may be naive but is this any worse than how our own military was treated (i.e. during WWII, Korea, Vietnam etc) during "war time"? Just think about what the Japanese, Germans etc did to our people during those times! What about the "beheading" the Arabs have done to our Americans and people from other countries? Yes, we have freedom of speech in this country but the press has gone too far, in my opinion, in reporting as to what they perceive the facts to be. They hurt our country, our military and I for one am tired of it. I am PROUD of our military and I SUPPORT them all the way. One more thing, yes there are some people in the military who may not be of the of best caliber but that is true of any organization, any where in the world. GET OVER IT.

Tudy

P.S.
Don't even bring up "do two wrongs make a right...?" for I am not even going there.

[rktect3j]

I may be naive but is this any worse than how our own military was treated (i.e. during WWII, Korea, Vietnam etc) during "war time"? Just think about what the Japanese, Germans etc did to our people during those times! What about the "beheading" the Arabs have done to our Americans and people from other countries? Yes, we have freedom of speech in this country but the press has gone too far, in my opinion, in reporting as to what they perceive the facts to be. They hurt our country, our military and I for one am tired of it. I am PROUD of our military and I SUPPORT them all the way. One more thing, yes there are some people in the military who may not be of the of best caliber but that is true of any organization, any where in the world. GET OVER IT.

Tudy

P.S.
Don't even bring up "do two wrongs make a right...?" for I am not even going there.
There was a time when I thought that we, America, should always take the high road. That time was peacetime.