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thedrifter
09-17-05, 11:54 AM
The Pledge: A Constitutional Crisis?
By Don Feder
FrontPageMagazine.com | September 16, 2005

Like the slime-creature from a '50s science-fiction film (“Kill it, before it multiplies!”), federal judges are seemingly unstoppable – a malignant, mutating entity determined to conquer the planet.

Which is another way of saying that another activist judge has decided that God is unconstitutional. Judge Lawrence K. Karlton (not surprisingly, a Carter-nominee) based his opinion on a fiction – which, come to think of it, isn’t surprising, either.

Karlton said he was bound by precedent to find that recitation of the Pledge of Allegiance with the words “one nation under God” violated the First Amendment’s Establishment Clause. The precedent Karlton cited was the Ninth Circuit Appeals Court’s 2002 decision in the Newdow case.

Michael Newdow, the atheist Energizer Bunny (last year, he tried to stop ministers from praying at the Inauguration), claimed his daughter was being subjected to “religious indoctrination.” In American public education, any form of indoctrination – erotic, racial, lifestyles, revisionist – is acceptable, as long as it doesn’t involve God.

The Ninth Circuit – which has the distinction of being the most-reversed appeals court in the land – ruled in his favor. The court held that a phrase school children have been repeating for half-a-century “impermissibly coerces a religious act” and “places students in the untenable position of choosing between participating in an exercise with religious content or protesting.”

When students buy lunch in the school cafeteria, and are forced to accept change with the motto “In God We Trust” inscribed thereon, are they not also being coerced into participating in “a religious act?”

When students at a school athletic event are compelled to stand while the National Anthem is sung (which contains the stanza, “Then conquer we must, when our cause it is just, and this be our motto, in God is our trust”), are they not thus put in “the untenable position of choosing between participating in an exercise with religious content or protesting”?

However, as I said, Karlton’s opinion is based on a lie.

In 2004, the Supreme Court reversed the Ninth Circuit. It determined that since Newdow didn’t have custody of his daughter, he lacked standing to sue in her behalf – a technicality, but one that negated the appeals court ruling.

By citing a non-existent precedent, Judge Karlton was rationalizing imposing his views on the Elk Grove Unified School District, whose students will shortly be enjoined from saying those ominously coercive words.

In similar fashion, a long line of justices, who have redefined the words “an establishment of religion” to mean “religious expression,” are using the First Amendment as an excuse to impose their hostility to faith on the rest of us.

Think about it. The U.S. Constitution was written in an era that was shaped by the thinking of men like Washington, Adams, and Madison.

*
John Adams affirmed, “Our Constitution was made for a moral and religious people.” But the same Constitution prohibits their children from hearing the words “under God” in a public school?
*
George Washington observed, “I am sure that never was a people who had more reason to acknowledge a Divine interposition in their affairs, than those of the United States.” But acknowledging the same in a public setting is unconstitutional?
*
James Madison (coincidentally, the author of the First Amendment) stated, “Before any man can be considered as a member of civil society, he must be considered as a subject of the Governor of the Universe.” But recognizing that reality with the words “one nation under God” is tantamount to the establishment of a theocracy?
*
Thomas Jefferson described the activist judges of his day thus: “The Constitution is a mere thing of wax in the hands of the judiciary, which they may twist and shape into any form they please.” Today, we have seen how elastic they have made the founding document.

Over the course of 60 years, the federal courts have steadily redefined the words “establishment of religion” (by which the Founding Fathers meant: a national church) to mean: no nondenominational school prayer, no moment of silence in the classroom, no public displays of crèches and menorahs (unless adequately camouflaged by secular symbols), no posting of the Ten Commandments on school bulletin boards, no invocations at graduations and now – no recitation of the Pledge of Allegiance.

If the Ninth Circuit’s interpretation is correct, it must also be an impermissibly coercive religious act for students to read the Declaration of Independence (“All men are created equal and endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights”) or to recite Lincoln’s Gettysburg Address (“That this nation, under God, shall have a new birth of freedom”).

That’s precisely what the principal of the Stevens Creek Elementary School, also in California, decided last year, when she stopped a teacher from distributing supplemental course material including the Declaration and excerpts from the diaries of Washington and Adams, due to their multiple references to God. (Is California still part of the United States?)

Leftist judges and bureaucrats have repeatedly amended the Constitution to suit their secularist worldview – in direct contravention of the words of the Founding Fathers, the intent of the Constitutions framers and the overwhelming desires of the American people.

(An Associated Press poll conducted when the matter was before the Supreme Court last year, found 87 percentof the public believes God “should remain in the Pledge of Allegiance.”)

The Constitution has been (and is being) amended on an ongoing basis, not as provided in Article V – by a two-thirds vote of each house of Congress and a three-fourths vote of the states – but based on the deeply held prejudices of radicals in robes who: a) Are unelected b) Serve for Life, c) Are answerable to no one but themselves and d) Think they’re God – which perhaps accounts for their aversion to public acknowledgment of the real Deity.

The above explains the three-ring circus currently underway in Washington, also known as the Roberts’ confirmation hearings. That’s why the Enormous Ted and other senatorial inquisitors have Supreme Court nominee John Roberts on the rack. Speaking of pledges of allegiance, they are determined to destroy him unless he swears an oath of fealty to their egregious distortions of the Constitution – concerning privacy, equal protection and an establishment of religion.

Although I’ve been skeptical of Roberts in the past, and remain so, I’m encouraged by his response to a question from California Senator Diane Feinstein, asking him if he is committed to “an America where the separation of church and state (words which appear nowhere in the Constitution) is absolute.”

Roberts’ response: “Senator, I think the reason we have the two clauses in the Constitution in the First Amendment (the Establishment Clause and the Free-Exercise Clause) reflects the framers’ experience. Many of them or their immediate ancestors were fleeing religious persecution. They were fleeing established churches.”

Note the way Roberts describes the genesis of the First Amendment: The framers’ or their immediate ancestors were fleeing “established churches” (where one religion was favored by the state and subsidized from the treasury), not states in which God was affirmed. How many federal judges share this perspective? How many Congressmen understand that there is no Social Security trust fund?

One may say today there is a religious war, or an anti-religious war, underway (at least a Thirty Year War). People of faith didn’t choose it. It was forced on us by the Left. These militant secularists aren’t adverse to our principles alone, but to those on which America was founded. If we are to have any hope of surviving this conflict, President Bush must – absolutely must – keep his oft-repeated promise to nominate Supreme Court justices in the Thomas/Scalia mold.

It’s said that belief in God requires an enormous leap of faith. Perhaps, but not nearly as much as the belief that the men who wrote the Constitution lived in mortal fear of school children hearing the words “one nation under God” – thereby “impermissibly coercing a religious act.”

Ellie

http://p089.ezboard.com/bthefontmanscommunity

Joseph P Carey
09-17-05, 02:56 PM
I still say that if the marines could make a prayer without the word God in it for all to read and to understand that it meant their individual God, then why should we be fighting over these two words in our Pledge to the Flag. The two words should be removed, because they do not belong there.

I wrote earlier:

It took me a while to find it, thank you Since1775 for your website.

For those that think Under God belongs in the Pledge to our flag, let me remind you of our own Marine Prayer, and when you read it, tell me how many times God is mentioned? The Marine Prayer, like the Pledge to the Flag, does not need the word God to be known by all who it is for, and all who believe in their God whenever it is read need not read the word.

Very cleaver those Marines! And, they are not Godless Liberals that do not bring the name God to the lips.

The Marines Prayer

Almighty Father, whose command is over all and whose love never fails, make me aware of Thy presence and obedient to Thy will. Keep me true to my best self, guarding me against dishonesty in purpose and deed and helping me to live so that I can face my fellow Marines, my loved ones, and Thee without shame or fear. Protect my family.

Give me the will to do the work of a Marine and to accept my share of responsibilities with vigor and enthusiasm. Grant me the courage to be proficient in my daily performance. Keep me loyal and faithful to my superiors and to the duties my Country and the Marine Corps have entrusted to me. Help me to wear my uniform with dignity, and let it remind me daily of the traditions which I must uphold.

If I am inclined to doubt, steady my faith; if I am tempted, make me strong to resist; if I should miss the mark, give me courage to try again.

Guide me with the light of truth and grant me wisdom by which I may understand the answer to my prayer.

Amen

How simple it would be to just remove the words!

redneck13
09-17-05, 05:04 PM
Ms. Ellie? You should be a "Editorialist" for a newspaper. I'm serious. You have the nack of being able to get things in perspective, and to find the "truth." I wish I had your means/ways!!!! I love your posts.
All I can say about this is..."HE NEED'S A SWIFT KICK IN THE BUTT!!" AND YOU CAN'T FIX...."STUPID!!!"

redneck13
09-17-05, 05:06 PM
Mr. Joe? I have never seen/read the "Marine Prayer." "Thank you." I'm going to print it, and put it in a frame, so I can have it lookin' at me all the time. God Bless ya. Semper-Fi hoss. You're a good Marine.

Ed Palmer
09-19-05, 07:25 AM
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v733/Ed15Palmer/stahler.gif

TazMatt
09-19-05, 07:54 AM
C pl. Carey I disagree with your statement about deleteing under God in the Pledge of allegiance. If you don't believe in God that is your privilege but I don't think you should say that the two words don,t belong. Remember that the words Almighty Father still refers to The Heavenly Father it is just your way of saying God. I know you have stated earlier you didn't believe in religion but yet you try to say there is no God just a Suprme being ,please explain the differnce. I can,t understand when people say there is no God.Wake up and look around you every day and tell me how these things came to be if there is no God. Believe what you may but in my house there is a God and always will be.

MillRatUSMC
09-19-05, 10:02 AM
A little History on the Pledge of Allegiance
http://www.flagday.org/Pages/PledgeHistory.html


The first Pledge of Allegiance;
* 'to' added in October, 1892.
I pledge allegiance to my Flag,
and (to*) the Republic for which it stands:
one Nation indivisible,
With Liberty and Justice for all.

On June 14, 1923 these words were added;
I pledge allegiance to<font size="4" color=red> the Flag of the United States,</font>
and to the Republic for which it stands:
one Nation indivisible,
With Liberty and Justice for all.

In 1924, "of America" was added;
I pledge allegiance to the Flag
of the United States<font size="4" color=red> of America,</font>
and to the Republic for which it stands:
one Nation indivisible,
With Liberty and Justice for all

On Flag Day June 14, 1954, the words "under God" were added to the Pledge of Allegiance.

<font size="4" color=Darkblue><pre>“I pledge allegiance to the Flag
of the United States of America
and to the Republic for which it stands,
one nation under God indivisible,
with liberty and justice for all.”</pre></font>


If we're to strike out "God's name" in the "Pledge of Allegiance" what do we do with "God's name" in the oath below?

Oath of Allegiance to the United States of America
I hereby declare, on oath, that I absolutely and entirely renounce and abjure all allegiance and fidelity to any foreign prince, potentate, state or sovereignty, of whom or which I have heretofore been a subject or citizen; that I will support and defend the Constitution and laws of the United States of America against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I will bear arms on behalf of the United States when required by the law; that I will perform noncombatant service in the armed forces of the United
States when required by the law; that I will perform work of national importance under civilian direction when required by the law; and that I take this obligation freely without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; so help me <font size="4" color=red>God.</font>

http://www.geocities.com/millrat_99/flag-marines.gif

http://www.geocities.com/millrat_99/pow-mia.gif

Semper Fidelis/Semper Fidelis
http://www.geocities.com/millrat_99/ssgt.gif
Of Marines
Ricardo

GySgtRet
09-19-05, 10:22 AM
HMM...SOunds like something that you have to do during a court proceeding doesn't it??? There we go again missing Religion and Govnment together again. It seems to me that our country had its roots in the church. But these days we aen't allowed to make up our own preferences someone else like these jerks make them up for us. What ever happened to majority rules???? It seems to me that the minority speak for all instead of the other way around. Our roots that mak and have made our nation the greatest are slipping away because of these minorities.

Joseph P Carey
09-19-05, 10:54 AM
Originally posted by TazMatt
C pl. Carey I disagree with your statement about deleteing under God in the Pledge of allegiance. If you don't believe in God that is your privilege but I don't think you should say that the two words don,t belong. Remember that the words Almighty Father still refers to The Heavenly Father it is just your way of saying God. I know you have stated earlier you didn't believe in religion but yet you try to say there is no God just a Suprme being ,please explain the differnce. I can,t understand when people say there is no God.Wake up and look around you every day and tell me how these things came to be if there is no God. Believe what you may but in my house there is a God and always will be.

Taz,

What I said was that I believe in the Constitution of the United States of America over any Organized Religion; I have also said that I am not a very religious man. But, it matters not what I believe in. What does matter is that my Fidelity is to the United States of America over and above any organized religion, and to the People of the United States of America, that is to include all religious people and all non-religious people.

For the record, I was born, raised, and confirmed in the Roman Catholic faith, but should my country call, and should my country ask of me to take the Vatican in Rome by force, I would do so without question, and still retain my faith, because nothing man made, as the Church of Rome is, can take the place of one's true religion or belief.

I have to laugh when you state, "Almighty Father still refers to The Heavenly Father...” when this is not so. It has many meanings other than yours; you just refuse to see it in any other light. That is your prerogative to believe in that, and I strongly support you.

The same with the word God! Again, it to has many meanings to many different peoples. It could be Apollo, it could be Jehovah, it could be Yahweh, it could be Allah, or it could be a rock star or a sports hero for all we care, after all, it is just a word in the English language, but, what of the people that do not believe in a personal God and are good citizens of the United States of America? Why should they feel they have to affirm loyalty to the United States, which they do believe in, along with a theory that they do not subscribe to? Is this right?

In truth, it never was, and it never will be in THIS country of Constitutional Law and Contract with its citizens as stated in the First Ten Amendments of the Constitution, The Bill of Rights!

Call me anything you wish, but call me an American first and foremost!

TazMatt
09-19-05, 01:53 PM
Cpl Carey, what do you have to say about the words In God We Trust that is on all our money and as someone esle stated when any person takes an oath of office they say So Help Me God not anything else. You said you were an investigator I think and if this is so ,if it was a part of the police force or any other official function you took an oath and it had the words God in it ,what do you propose to take the word God out of everyday life.

Joseph P Carey
09-19-05, 02:08 PM
Originally posted by TazMatt
Cpl Carey, what do you have to say about the words In God We Trust that is on all our money and as someone esle stated when any person takes an oath of office they say So Help Me God not anything else. You said you were an investigator I think and if this is so ,if it was a part of the police force or any other official function you took an oath and it had the words God in it ,what do you propose to take the word God out of everyday life.

You confuse a volunteer oath by select citizens with a Pledge of Alliegence for all citizens, but even in a court room the choice is to swear or affirm a person's willingness to tell the truth, and the same is true of the oath of office should the person balk at the way it is worded.

yellowwing
09-19-05, 06:27 PM
In this issue the Supreme Court ruled against the atheist because he did not have parental custody and had no grounds to sue on his child's behalf. A legal technicality.

That non-decision of the Supreme Court left no clear ruling on the issue of Constitutionality.

The presiding Judge Karlton added a note to his ruling:

In a final footnote, Karlton mused that the “ultimate resolution” of the issue “depends on the shifting, subjective sensibilities of any five members of the High Court, leaving those of us who work in the vineyard without guidance. … As preposterous as it might seem, given the lack of boundaries, a case could be made for substituting “under Christ” for “under God,” … thus marginalizing not only atheists and agnostics, but also Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, Confucians, Sikhs, Hindus, and other religious adherents.”

Until someone successfully frames a legal challenge of Separation of Church and State, the true issue will be dodged again on technicalities.

TazMatt
09-19-05, 07:24 PM
This may be true Carey about the oath but you still didn,t say what you would do about the name God on currency or coins and on other important documents. there is no getting around God in your everyday life so why do people continue to try to eliminate him from daily activities.

Joseph P Carey
09-19-05, 07:58 PM
Originally posted by TazMatt
This may be true Carey about the oath but you still didn,t say what you would do about the name God on currency or coins and on other important documents. there is no getting around God in your everyday life so why do people continue to try to eliminate him from daily activities.

No one has to swear an allegiance to money; I don't care if they put 'Little Orphan Annie' on the Twenty in a sexually explicit position, I will still use it. You seem to be missing the fact that no one is required to speak all the words on a coin or a dollar bill. Hell, even the most devout Muslims use US Money, but they are not required to speak the ‘Pledge of Allegiance’ each day of the school year.

TazMatt
09-20-05, 02:30 AM
That is my point exactly if you are willing to use coins and currency with the word God on it and why just say the Pledge of Alligence with the words in it. You are willing to use the items as long as it does'nt inconveinance you.Take away everything that has God on it or in it and see if you can survive in this world today.You said that you didn,t care who name or picture was on your money but it is obvious that our forefathers cared enough about their belief in God that they put it on several documents and thier coins and currency to let the people know how they felt. That is what is wrong today is that they have taken prayer and God out of school and just about everything else.

T. Staggs19
09-20-05, 05:10 AM
Though the weight of this subject cannot be measured, i do wish to point out the fact that our nation obtained its place as a world superpower through the ideals that our forefathers laid out in the constitution. The thought of this system eroding is frightening, when will we say enough to those who are attempting to destroy us from within? Im not saying that you have to believe in the words that you say, just that you should show respect for others beliefs without compromising your own morals. Changing the pledge will only lead the way for further compromises. If this pattern continues when can we expect to see the bill of rights under judicial review?

yellowwing
09-20-05, 05:34 AM
Eroding it like the introduction of the thinly veiled Christian teachings of "Intelligent Design" in school curriculum?

Opinion is fast becoming more valuable than truth. There is no scientific basis on Intelligent Design. But it now must be taught.

The Nobel College is rabid about it. And those are some pretty smart people.

The moratorium on stem cell research has left the U.S. behind in next generation of medical research and discovery. Because its not a popular Christian opinion.

We've hobbled the fight against AIDs in Africa because the policy is not to send condoms but export Christian lectures on abstinence.

Each year the government is farming out more services to Faith Based Organizations. And its not the Buddhists that are getting community projects.

Don't worry about what one atheist is trying to do, look around at what is actually happening.

"...with Liberty and Justice for All."

Joseph P Carey
09-20-05, 12:44 PM
Taz,

Ah Taz! Let me tell you a story I heard of George Washington, and why it is we have the Bill of Rights with the First Amendment including in it’s writing the Freedom of Religion.

It is well known that the dominance of the original 13 colonies were Protestant, and the writers of the US Constitution were again predominantly Protestant, but the dominance of the Colonial Armed Forces' Soldiers were Irish Roman Catholics. They had been with Washington all the way through the war.

Now, the writers of the Constitution wanted to make a National Religion, and of course they would choose their own religion as that National Religion, which at the time would have made the Irish Catholics second-class citizens, because they were considered Papists. It would have also excluded Jews from participation in the government, and it was the Jewish Community of Philadelphia that largely supported the Continental Army in its war with their money that was never paid back to them by the Congress.

Washington thought this unfair that the people that had given the most to the cause would have been excluded from the government, and he lobbied the writers for one point in the New Constitution as a tribute to his soldiers, and to those that gave of what they had to see the fight through to an end. That point was that there would be no National Religion in the Union of States forming the United States of the North American Continent.

That point was written not as Freedom of Religion, but rather that Congress shall make no Law respecting an Establishment of Religion, or prohibiting the free expression thereof... It was the main text of the First Amendment of the First Ten Amendments of the Constitution we have come to know as the Bill of Rights.

In truth, should they have printed 'In Allah we trust' would you still be so righteous about our money, after all he is a God to many more people in the world than the Christ, or God. How about 'In Buddha we trust', there are at least 2 billion Buddhist in the world. How about 'In the Pope we trust' there are considerably more Roman and Orthodox Catholics in the world.

You only think 'Under God' should be recited in the Pledge, because it is your personal religion, you are looking at this as a Theocentric, and as if the rest of the people in the USA believe as do you, and that is not so.

You, if not you, others, try to make the point that it was 'God Fearing Free Men' that made this country what it is, but you seem to forget that it was Irish Roman Catholics that were hunted and Killed by the Brits for their religion in Europe that fought by the side of Washington, and by the Divisions in the Civil War. That War was fought in Europe over religion (Protestant versus Catholic). That it was men that had their families in Concentration Camps in the United States, who believed in Buddha, and Shintoism, and Taoism that were the most decorated Soldiers in the Second World War in the Japanese-American Divisions. These fine men fought not for your God, but for America, and the Constitutional Protections of the American way of life, so that no one could tell them that they had to say 'Under God' in their Pledge to the American Flag!

Give these fine warriors the dignaty to believe in their own God, or Diety, without shoving a foriegn God down their throats. Just look what the 'God Fearing men of Christ' did to the people of Hawaii, and to the American Indian. Look at what the 'God Fearing' men of Mormon did to settlers that just crossed their lands on route to California.

The classic case is the Pilgrims that came to this coutry to escape religious persecution, and immediately upon building their first shack, did the same to others.

Phantom Blooper
09-26-05, 08:40 PM
Minister reprises 'under God' sermon
Pledge of Allegiance flap brings him back

Monday, August 19, 2002

By Tom Gibb, Post-Gazette Staff Writer


HUNTINGDON, Pa. -- Nobody would have faulted the Rev. George Docherty had he begged out of donning his black cassock and delivering a 25-minute sermon yesterday in a sweltering, packed sanctuary.


The Rev. George Docherty -- "To omit the words 'under God' is to omit the definitive character of the American way of life." (Lake Fong, Post-Gazette)


His best excuse: He's 91.

But he was born and raised a Scotsman. That's probably what helped make him a stubborn 91-year-old.

"George is the proverbial race horse," friend Robert Stewart said. "He always has a race left in him."

So, yesterday morning, before the 400-some people who filled Huntingdon Presbyterian Church -- a multitude the church doesn't see but for Easter and Christmas Eve -- this regal, broad-shouldered Scotsman reprised his 1954 sermon that helped to plug the phrase "under God" into the Pledge of Allegiance.

Back then, it was a sermon he delivered as pastor of the landmark New York Avenue Presbyterian Church in Washington, D.C. -- the powerful in attendance, President Dwight Eisenhower in a front pew.

This time, in the wake of a stayed federal appeals court ruling that "under God" makes the pledge unconstitutional, Docherty's audience was in the Huntingdon County church he began attending when he retired to rural Central Pennsylvania a decade-and-a-half ago.

"To omit the words 'under God' is to omit the definitive character of the American way of life," Docherty, a hale voice with a hearty brogue, read.

"What the Declaration [of Independence] says, in effect, is that no state church shall exist in this land. This is separation of church and state. It is not and never was meant to be a separation of religion and life."



In early Cold War America, rattled by what its leaders portrayed as godless communism, the Knights of Columbus, with support from such entities as the American Legion and Hearst Newspapers, waged a protracted, high profile campaign to include "under God" in the pledge.

Docherty's 1954 sermon, which actually had debuted to a different audience and minimal effect two years earlier, gave the movement a stiff push forward. Wire services carried accounts of what Eisenhower heard in church that day, the sermon was copied into the Congressional Record, and portions of the service turned up on movie theater newsreels.

Docherty, a self-effacing man, wasn't wanting for recognition. He was successor to the eminent Peter Marshall at New York Avenue Presbyterian; he would become a compatriot to the Rev. Martin Luther King Jr. of Selma, Ala., and associate of such clergy as the Rev. Billy Graham.

But the "under God" sermon drew reaction immediately -- Docherty was asked for 2,000 copies of his sermon right afterward and the movement to add the words to the pledge surged forward.

Furor over the pledge erupted anew in June when a three-judge appeals panel of the 11-member 9th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals in San Francisco threatened to undo the success of that movement when it ruled unconstitutional the words "under God" inserted into the Pledge of Allegiance in 1954. The decision has been stayed, pending appeal.

"There was something missing in this pledge," Docherty preached yesterday, "and that which was missing was the characteristic and definitive factor in the American way of life. Indeed, apart from the phrase 'the United States of America,' this could be the pledge of any republic. In fact, I could hear little Muscovites repeat a similar pledge to their hammer-and-sickle flag with equal solemnity."

"If we were to add the words 'under the church,' that would be dangerous. ... It must be 'under God' to include the great Jewish community and the people of the Moslem faith and the myriad of denominations of Christians in the land. ... What then of the honest atheist? ... He cannot deny the Christian revelation and logically live by the Christian ethic, and if he denies the Christian ethic, he falls short of the American ideal of life."

Partly because he says his memory has faltered and partly to stay true to the 1954 sermon, Docherty read entirely from his text, discarding chances to display his easy wit -- such as when he wagged a chastening finger at a sagging microphone holder and implored, "Get out of the way, now."

Sometimes, an intent congregation had to fish out words hidden in Docherty's brogue or caught under the whoosh of fans running at full bore just to keep room temperature near 80.

"But it was a wonderful sermon," said retired physician John Hewlett, who drove from Hershey to hear friend Docherty.

"We're a nation under God," said Pat Kepler, who came 26 miles from State College when she heard that Docherty was going to offer his 1954 sermon anew. "I believe it more after hearing him."

On a summer Sunday morning, Huntingdon Presbyterian is satisfied to draw 100 worshippers to its 126-year-old brick church, a landmark whose 30-foot spire towers over this mellow county seat.

It was pastor Richard Gardiner who made the decision that nearly turned yesterday's service into a standing-room-only affair. He resolved, in the wake of the June court ruling, that the 1954 sermon would have an encore, even if he had to read the text to the congregation himself.

One doesn't, after all, burden a 91-year-old man who's been through heart bypass surgery, even if, by all appearances, he's robust. And this 91-year-old man already figured that he had made his farewell appearance with a sermon two years ago in the New York Avenue Presbyterian pulpit.

"But George said, 'No, I'll do it.' He definitely wanted to do it," said his wife, school teacher Sue Docherty.

"It took a little courage," he said. "But it's a wonderful experience, to see so many faces looking up at you."

In the aftermath, Docherty pronounced himself "a little tired," said he expects "under God" to remain in the pledge, but allowed that, either way, he's probably made his last stand in the pulpit.

But maybe he'd like to write a book, he said, maybe something about experiences in the clergy as instruction to fledgling preachers.

"When he's determined he's going to do something," Hewlett said, "he'll do it."



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tom Gibb can be reached at tgibb@post-gazette.com or 412-263-1601.

Joseph P Carey
09-26-05, 09:13 PM
Again, I do appreciate the Rev's work, but he is after all a holy man that believes in his God! Of course, he would think it was right to change the words of the pledge in 1954, that had seen the Men and Women off to war in the Pacific Theater and the European Theater's of operation.

'Under God' did not make this country great, 'under the sweat and blood of men and women of all denominations and faiths, and different beliefs and non beliefs made this country great'. People that went through the Great Flue Epidemic of the 1920's, the Stock Crash of 1929, The Depression, the Second World War, and the Korean War are those that made this country great.

Since 'Under God' what have we had to contend with? The Now Generation? Flower Children? Generation X? All the 'Me Generations' that encompassed the Peace Movement, the New Socialists, The Welfare State, the New Communists, and, excuse the words, Heaven knows what else!

Phantom Blooper
09-26-05, 09:25 PM
Somewhere along the way, the Federal Courts and the Supreme Court have misinterpreted the U.S. Constitution. How could fifty States be wrong?

THIS IS VERY INTERESTING! Be sure to read the last two paragraphs. America's founders did not intend for there to be a separation of God and state, as shown by the fact that all 50 states acknowledge God in their state constitutions:

Alabama 1901, Preamble. We the people of the State of Alabama, invoking the favor and guidance of Almighty God, do ordain and establish the following Constitution .

Alaska 1956, Preamble. We, the people of Alaska, grateful to God and to those who founded our nation and pioneered this great land .

Arizona 1911, Preamble. We, the people of the State of Arizona, grateful to Almighty God for our liberties, do ordain this Constitution...

Arkansas 1874, Preamble. We, the people of the State of Arkansas, grateful to Almighty God for the privilege of choosing our own form of government...

California 1879, Preamble. We, the People of the State of California, grateful to Almighty God for our freedom ..

Colorado 1876, Preamble. We, the people of Colorado, with profound reverence for the Supreme Ruler of Universe.

Connecticut 1818, Preamble. The People of Connecticut, acknowledging with gratitude the good Providence of God in permitting them to enjoy ...

Delaware! 1897, Preamble. Through Divine Goodness all men have, by nature, the rights of worshipping and serving their Creator according to the dictates of their consciences .

Florida 1885, Preamble. We, the people of the State of Florida, grateful to Almighty God for our constitutional liberty .. establish this Constitution....

Georgia 1777, Preamble. We, the people of Georgia, relying upon protection and guidance of Almighty God, do ordain and establish this Constitution...

Hawaii 1959, Preamble. We, the people of Hawaii, Grateful for Divine Guidance .... establish this Constitution.

Idaho 1889, Preamble. We, the people of the State of Idaho, grateful to Almighty God for our freedom, to secure its blessings

Illinois 1870, Preamble. We, the people of the State of Illinois, grateful to Almighty God for the civil, political and religious liberty which He hath so long permitted us to enjoy and looking to Him for a blessing on our endeavors.

Indiana 1851, Preamble. We, the People of the State of Indiana, grateful to Almighty God for the free exercise of the right to chose our form of government.

Iowa 1857, Preamble. We, the People of the State of Iowa, grateful to the Supreme Being for the blessings hitherto enj! oyed, and feeling our dependence on Him for a continuation of these bl essings . establish this Constitution.

Kansas 1859, Preamble. We, the people of Kansas, grateful to Almighty God for our civil and religious privileges establish this Constitution.

Kentucky 1891, Preamble. We, the people of the Commonwealth of Kentucky grateful to Almighty God for the civil, political and religious liberties...

Louisiana 1921, Preamble. We, the people of the State of Louisiana, ! grateful to Almighty God for the civil, political and religious liberties we enjoy.

Maine 1820, Preamble. We the People of Maine .. acknowledging with grateful hearts the goodness of the Sovereign Ruler ! of the Universe in affording us an opportunity . and imploring His aid and direction.

Maryland 1776, Preamble. We, the people of the state of Maryland, grateful to Almighty God for our civil and religious liberty...

Massachusetts 1780, Preamble. We...the people of Massachusetts, acknowledging with grateful hearts, the goodness of the Great Legislator of the Universe .... in the course of His Providence, an opportunity and devoutly imploring His direction .

Michigan 1908, Preamble. We, the people of the State of Michigan, grateful to Almighty God for the blessings of freedom . establish this Constitution.

Minnesota, 1857, Preamble. We, the people of the State of Minnesota, grateful to God for our civil and religious liberty, and desiring to perpetuate its blessings.

Mississippi 1890, Preamble. We, the people of Mississippi in convention assembled, grateful to Almighty God, and invoking His blessing on our work.

Missouri 1845, Preamble. We, the people of Missouri, with profound reverence for the Supreme Ruler of the Universe, and grateful for His goodness . establish this Constitution ...

Montana 1889, Preamble. We, the people of Montana, grateful to Almighty God for the blessings of liberty. establish this Constitution.

Nebraska 1875, Preamble. We, the people, grateful to Almighty God for our freedom .. establish this Constitution.

Nevada 1864, Preamble. We the people of the State of Nevada, grateful to Almighty God for our freedom establish this Constitution ...

New Hampshire 1792, Part I. Art. I. Sec. V. Every individual has a natural and unalienable right to worship God according to the dictates of his own conscience.

New Jersey 1844, Preamble. We, the people of the State of New Jersey, grateful to Almighty God for civil and religious liberty which He hath so long permitted us to enjoy, and looking to Him for a blessing on our endeavors .

New Mexico 1911, Preamble. We, the People of New Mexico, grateful to Almighty God for the blessings of Liberty.

New York 1846, Preamble. We, the people of the State of New York, grateful to Almighty God for our freedom, in order to secure its blessin! gs.

North Carolina 1868, Preamble. We the people of the State of North Carolina, grateful to Almighty God, the Sovereign Ruler of Nations, for our civil, political, and religious liberties, and acknowledging our dependence upon Him for the continuance of those .

North Dakota 1889, Preamble. We, the people of North Dakota , grateful to Almighty God for the blessings of civil and religious liberty, do ordain...

Ohio 1852, Preamble. We the people of the state of Ohio! , grateful to Almighty God for our freedom, to secure its blessings and to promote our common ..

Oklahoma 1907, Preamble. Invoking the guidance of Almighty God, in order to secure and perpetuate the blessings of liberty ... establish this ..

Oregon 1857, Bill of Rights, Article I. Section 2. All men shall be secure in the Natural right, to worship Almighty God according to the dictates of their consciences..

Pennsylvania 1776, Preamble. We, the people of Pennsylv ania, grateful to Almighty God for the blessings of civil and religious liberty, and humbly invoking His guidance. .

Rhode Island 1842, Preamble. We the People of the State of Rhode Island grateful to Almighty God for the civil and religious liberty which He hath so long permitted us to enjoy, and looking to Him for a blessing .

South Carolina, 1778, Preamble. We, the people of he State of South Carolina.. grateful to God for our liberties, do ordain and establish this Constitution..

South Dakota 1889, Preamble. We, the people of South Dakota , grateful to Almighty God for our civil! and religious liberties . establish this ,

Tennessee 1796, Art. XI.III. That all men have a natural and indefensible right to worship Almighty God according to the dictates of their conscience...

Texas 1845, Preamble. We the People of the Republic of Texas, acknowledging, with gratitude, the grace and beneficence of God.

Utah 1896, Preamble. Grateful to Almighty God for life and liberty, we establish this Constitution .

Vermont 1777, Preamble. Whereas all government ought to ... enable the individuals who compose it to enjoy their natural rights, and other blessings which the Author of Existence has bestowed on man ...

Virginia 1776, Bill of Rights, XVI ... Religion, or the Duty which we owe our Creator .. can be directed only by Reason . and that it is the mutual duty of all to practice Christian Forbearance, Love and Charity towards each other ... !

Washington 1889, Preamble. We the People of the State of Washington, grateful to the Supreme Ruler of the Universe for our liberties, do ordain this Constitution ...

West Virginia 1872, Preamble. Since through Divine Providence we enjoy the blessings of civil, political and religious liberty, we, the people of West Virginia . reaffirm our faith in and constant reliance upon God ...

Wisconsin 1848, Pream! ble. We, the people of Wisconsin, grateful to Almighty God for our fre edom, domestic tranquility .

Wyoming 1890, Preamble. We, the people of the State of Wyoming, grateful to God for our civil, political, and religious liberties .. establish this Constitution ...

After reviewing acknowledgments of God from all 50 state constitutions, one is faced with the prospect that maybe, just maybe, the ACLU and the out-of-control federal courts are wrong!


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"Religion is for people who don't want to go to hell. Spirituality is for those who have already been there."

Phantom Blooper
09-26-05, 09:49 PM
God is NOT, however, mentioned in the US Constitution or Bill of Rights.

Whats not covered in the constitution is left up to the states rights.


Where do the "inalienable rights" come from? Surely not from a narcissistic, secular humanist."Congress shall make NO LAW respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances".


Religion can be a part of government, or schools. ANY religion. Schools and government cannot FORCE religion upon anyone.

A school shouldn't be allowed to prohibit prayer. A school should tolerate prayers of all kinds. We are founded on religious convictions, yes. And we should all be FREE to worship, or not. The government shouldn't be allowed to promote or force any one religion upon us. Swear or affirm.......?

Why is this such a big deal ? What we need is tolerance, not sensitivity. The only people that make it a big deal are those who feel a need to force their opinion on others, and coerce others into their own way of thinking. The intolerant.

Semper-Fi! "Never Forget" Chuck Hall

Joseph P Carey
09-27-05, 02:14 AM
Again, The Pledge of Allegience is not a Prayer, and as long as it means nothing to you guys, as you believe it should not mean anything to others, why not have the US Congress amend the Pledge to read 'Under Allah' in the place of 'Under God'? I would bet a dollar to a dozen donuts that you would protest the reading of the Pledge under those conditions in the schools of this nation!