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outlaw3179
09-14-05, 01:39 PM
Judge declares Pledge unconstitutional

Wednesday, September 14, 2005; Posted: 2:21 p.m. EDT (18:21 GMT)

SAN FRANCISCO, California (AP) -- Reciting the Pledge of Allegiance in public schools was ruled unconstitutional Wednesday by a federal judge who granted legal standing to two families represented by an atheist who lost his previous battle before the U.S. Supreme Court.

U.S. District Judge Lawrence Karlton ruled that the pledge's reference to one nation "under God" violates school children's right to be "free from a coercive requirement to affirm God."

Karlton said he was bound by precedent of the 9th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals, which in 2002 ruled in favor of Sacramento atheist Michael Newdow that the pledge is unconstitutional when recited in public schools.



So...Ive been in the wrong this whole time? and youre telling me that now this judge has freed my children from a coercive requirement to affirm God? Fuk that! This is another bull**** reason why America is losing its values !

SGTLANE
09-14-05, 01:43 PM
That is crap!!! In order to be an atheist you have to believe there is a God. They need to affirm God everyday anyway!!!! The 9th court of appeals and this judge need to get locked on!!!

GySgtRet
09-14-05, 01:46 PM
America is about the people. But the government sucks.. When I was in elementary school in Pa as a kid we used to have a prayer before classes started. That was stopped. We had people in our school called minenites (SP??) they could not due to religious beleifs recite the Pledge of Alegiance, so they just stood there unoffended. Why couldn't be that simple instead of using my tax money and yours for frivolous expenditures like this...???

jinelson
09-14-05, 01:47 PM
It seems a waste of time and money to appeal something that already has been ruled and decided upon by the supreme court.

thedrifter
09-14-05, 01:51 PM
They believe they are God...;)

Ellie

SGTLANE
09-14-05, 01:55 PM
jinelson, so effort to put God and the Pledge of Allegiance (back where they should be) are a waste of time and money??? So as Christians just because the Supreme Court has made a decision we should just say "oh well, nothing we can do about it now"..?? BECAUSE THIS COUNTRY WAS FOUNDED ON THE BASIC BELIEFS OF GOD. Freedom of religion and all that. Waste of time and money...the first schools used the bible as a text book. It is that kind of thinking that has put this country where it is right now.....frivolous==== !!!!

outlaw3179
09-14-05, 01:58 PM
100% agree. You have to hold on to the values that make the United States what it is. There are to many tree hugging hippies out there that want to make this country forget what it was founded on. God , Country , Corps!

GySgtRet
09-14-05, 02:09 PM
outlaw3179,

You are 100% correct...!!!

jinelson
09-14-05, 02:12 PM
Unless the United States Supreme Court no longer is the final rule in this country I do not understand how a lower court can rule rule the opposite of the higher, would it not mean anything? Please dont misunderstand me I feel the same as you do.

jegries
09-14-05, 02:15 PM
Maybe all that do believe should sue the goverment for violating our rights to recite the pledge. It is thier right not to, but or right to choose.

jegries
09-14-05, 02:17 PM
I agree. How can the ruling stand when the supreme court has already dismissed this subject before.

JAMarine
09-14-05, 02:24 PM
I agree!

As for me and my Family, we will continue to believe in God. And for those who don't...... say the pledge and don't say what you don't believe in. Who the hell will know.........

We as Americans and a Nation need to come back to basics.

Toby M
09-14-05, 02:28 PM
I am so ****ed I can't see straight! When are the leaders of this country (as well as the courts) going to start doing as the majority of the people want???? Anytime some garbage eating scumbag doesn't like something, all he has to do is go to court and change what has stood for over 200 years...what a shameful lack of patriotism!!!

jegries
09-14-05, 02:29 PM
This decision should be made by the highest of courts. The sole purpose of the Supreme Court is to enterpret the Constitution and pass judgement according to the standards of society. This issue was at the federal level only cause the Supreme Court had already dismissed it and the plantifs knew they would lose if they brought before them again.
If I lived in the district of this court I would sue the School System if they prohibited my kids from reciting the pledge for suppression of the First Ammendment.

SGTLANE
09-14-05, 03:36 PM
Sorry, jinelson-- that was not how I was reading what you wrote. I apologize for getting on my soap boxxx!!!!!!

vfm
09-14-05, 03:36 PM
I think this judge and the atheist and anyone else who agrees with these fools should have to give up all the money they have in their pockets and bank accounts because all U.S. currency has a motto "In God We Trust".

All kidding aside we are getting to the point where the few are making too many waves for the majority and the courts are tied up for too many frivilous lawsuits.
SEMPER FI!!!
vfm

MOUNTAINWILLIAM
09-14-05, 10:09 PM
FIRST, THIS IDIOT JUDGE AND ANY NUMBER OF THE POMPOUS ASSES WOULDN'T KNOW THE CONSTITUTION IF THEY TRIPPED OVER IT, SECONDLY, IF THAT JERK WERE A TRUE "ATHIEST" HE WOULD NOT LET THE MENTION OF GOD OR OTHER HIGHER BEINGS AFFECT HIM.

THIS SO-CALLED LAWYER IS TRYING TO GET AT HIS EX BY BRINGING UP THIS CASE (IT'S A DOMESTIC DIPUTE). HE IS A HYPOCRITE OF THE WORST SORT. IN FILING THE SUIT, HE RECOGNIZES A GREATER BEING OR CREATOR, THEREFORE HE CAN'T BE AN ATHIEST.

WHEN ARE THE PEOPLE OF THIS COUNTRY GOING TO WAKE UP AND THROW THESE GOOFBALLS OUT OF OFFICE AND RUN THE ****ERS AND MOANERS BACK UP UNDER THE PORCH WITH THE REST OF THEIR FAMILY?

SEMPER FI:marine:

troop901
09-14-05, 11:28 PM
Being as how I went to the school district, in Adams county Ohiya, that got sued by our beloved ACLU just because they posted the 10 commandments outside of the schools, I have a personal thing with this subject. Yes, we lost, and our country lost. Freedom of religion means not to be persecuted fer your religious beliefs, not to be dismissed because someone doesnt believe in your beliefs. If yer an atheist, fine, dont like ya so sue me, I dont care. If yer into Islam, Judiesm or whatever I dont care, thats yer right. But anyone who knows anything knows that the 3 major religions came from the same source. Ya can say, that butthead had a point in suein our schools, but this is the same butthead that said, ok, if I dont win then I will put a 10 ft blow up dick in my front yard and say its for my religious beliefs, yes, he was really lookin out for his kids wasnt he. Sorry, startin to rant here, but this just boils my butt. And thankfully, this ruling only effects 9 states out west right now. But it seems to me, we only fight for the rights of a few, not the many. And no, contrary to what the pics show, Jim is not, I repeat not, a buddist monk, even though he has the belly to be, thats just a beer belly lol
Sorry Jim, had to throw that one in,
SF

Joseph P Carey
09-15-05, 04:46 AM
Gentlemen, as often before, I have picked up the rope on the dirty end, and pulled. I do so now!

When I went to school, as a young boy (A Catholic School by the way), we recited the Pledge without a reference to any God. It was a continuous "...one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice ..." not an 'Under God' in the text. The two words just were another case of someone adding another "whistle or wing ding' too much so to make a point. The first time I heard the words added was when I went to a public school in 1958, four years after the edict 'Under God'.

My Dad fought all through WWII in the South Pacific with the Marines without the 'Under God', My Uncle died in Korea without 'Under God', and my brother and I both went to Vietnam with the Marines, and were both wounded, knowing the pledge without 'Under God'. I ask you, did this make us any less Americans, just because we did not express 'Under God' in our pledge to the flag?

For the record, I still do not use the two words. It is my preference to not use the two words. I believe in the Constitution of the United States over any organized religion, and certainly over just two words!

I am not Atheist; I am Constitutionalist! And, I am a Citizen of the United States who will defend any person's right to believe, as he so shall wish to do so without interference from the government! This to include telling them 'there is a God', or 'there is not a God', even by just two words, 'Under God'! I am a Catholic, but should my country call me to war against the Vatican, "Goodbye Pope"! My Country comes first!

A Little History:
The Pledge of Allegiance was written in August 1892 by the socialist minister Francis Bellamy (1855-1931). It was originally published in The Youth's Companion on September 8, 1892.

In its original form it read:

"I pledge allegiance to my Flag and the Republic for which it stands, one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."

In 1923, the words, "the Flag of the United States of America" were added against Bellamy's wishes, as he wanted the pledge to be used by any citizen of any country. At this time it read:

"I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands, one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."

In 1954, in response to the Communist threat of the times, President Eisenhower encouraged Congress to add the words "under God," creating the 31-word pledge we say today. Today it reads:

"I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."

mrbsox
09-15-05, 07:01 AM
Originally posted by jegries
I agree. How can the ruling stand when the supreme court has already dismissed this subject before.

Perhaps, we need to remember that the Constitution (that we all swore to 'protect and defend') allows states to make their OWN laws. They may be MORE strict than the federal stautes, but NOT less. The Supreme Court (in my eyes) said that the FEDERAL government cannot make laws banning the pledge, not individual states. As such, it should refuse to hear a state level case.

It would seem to me then, that it is up to the citizens of that state, to;

1) Vote those lawmakers OUT of office, and put the law back into the order which THEY THE PEOPLE desire
2) Live like sheep under the oppressive B.S. laws put out by the people that they probably never bothered to vote against in the first place
3) Pack their family up and move some place that will respect their beliefs, and take their tax revenue with them

...'as for me and my family, we will serve the lord...'

I'll not live in a state that does not represent my views and beliefs. I'll not live somewhere that allows/supports gay marriage, bans the pledge, the 2nd ammendment, etc...

But I cannot prevent those treehuggingpantywaisteddoucebags from making their own choice to stay in California.

Since1775
09-15-05, 09:20 AM
Red Skelton and The Pledge of Allegiance

Red Skelton's love of country was strikingly demonstrated one evening, January 14, 1969, when on his television show he recited an experience he had as a boy in school with regard to the Pledge of Allegiance. This was a radical departure for a comedy show. Many thought a dramatic recitation might pull the audience down since Red wanted to do it at the beginning of the program. After all, some reasoned, Red is completely identified with comedy and clowning. But Red insisted. He did it, and the public reaction was phenomenal. Telephone calls coming in so rapidly to television stations across the country almost inundated the switchboards. Letters by the thousands poured in, most requesting a copy of the Pledge. Thousands also wanted a record of Red reciting it. Columbia Records issued a single record and it soon hit the best-selling charts, right up there with the kids' popular rock'n roll. The Pledge of Allegiance was a hit!

Red Skelton's Pledge of Allegiance has won 42 awards and has twice been read into the Congressional Record. Other honors bestowed upon Red include awards from the American Legion, the American Freedom Foundation, and the United Conference of Christians and Jews.

From the Red Skelton Hour, January 14, 1969.

As a schoolboy, one of Red Skelton's teachers explained the words and meaning of the Pledge of Allegiance to his class. Red Skelton later wrote down, and eventually recorded, his recollection of this lecture. It is followed by an observation of his own.

I had this one teacher, he was the principal of the Harrison School, in Vincennes, Indiana. To me, he was the greatest teacher, a real sage of my time. He had such wisdom. We were all reciting the Pledge of Allegiance one day, and he walked over. This little old teacher - Mr. Lasswell was his name. He said:

"I've been listening to you boys and girls recite the Pledge of Allegiance all semester and it seems as though it is becoming monotonous to you. If I may, may I recite it and try to explain to you the meaning of each word?"

I - me, an individual, a committee of one.

Pledge - dedicate all my worldly goods to give without self-pity.

Allegiance - my love and my devotion.

To the Flag - our standard, Old Glory, a symbol of freedom. Wherever she waves, there is respect because your loyalty has given her a dignity that shouts, Freedom is everybody's job.

Of the United - that means that we have all come together.

States - Individual communities that have united into forty-eight great states. Forty-eight individual communities with pride and dignity and purpose, all divided with imaginary boundaries, yet united to a common purpose, and that is love for country.

Of America.

And to the Republic - a state in which sovereign power is invested in representatives chosen by the people to govern. And government is the people and it's from the people to the leaders, not from the leaders to the people.

For Which it Stands!

One Nation - meaning, so blessed by God.

Indivisible - incapable of being divided.

With Liberty - which is Freedom and the right of power to live one's life without threats or fear or any sort of retaliation.

And Justice - the principle and quality of dealing fairly with others.

For All. - which means, boys and girls, it's as much your country as it is mine.

And now, boys and girls, let me hear you recite the Pledge of Allegiance:

"I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic, for which it stands; one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."

Since I was a small boy, two states have been added to our country, and two words have been added to the Pledge of Allegiance - "under God." Wouldn't it be a pity if someone said, "That is a prayer," and that would be eliminated from our schools too?

- Red Skelton

GySgtRet
09-15-05, 09:30 AM
Since1775,

I heard the recording of this about a year ago. I do not remember the program that he was on when he did this peace but it still brings a tear to my eyes to have the description of how Red Skelton narated this. By the way The red Skleton show (when the TV worked) was my favorite show.

Semper Fidelis

Joseph P Carey
09-15-05, 11:35 AM
I remember the Red Skelton Show. It was the best show ever that was on TV. All through the show he had the mask of the clown, but at the end of every show he exposed the soul of a poet and an American.

There will never be another Red Skelton, and I too remember that show with the pledge. He had a way of telling a story, any story, funny or not, and still have you hang on to hear the ending. He did it without screaming or swearing at you, usually in a quiet low voice, and he did it in the tradition of the Great Irish Story tellers without having you lose interest for one word. A lesson that was lost on many politicians and comics of today. Although, I can not tell which is which.

Red was a great American!

GySgtRet
09-15-05, 12:04 PM
You could have heard a pin drop when that show opened.

kentmitchell
09-15-05, 05:53 PM
Don't be so quick to get your skivvies in a knot.
The "under God" portion wasn't inserted until Eisenhower was president.
Prior to that, we didn't use it yet America managed to win WWI and WWII--clear cut victories. After "under God" was introduced, the best we have managed is a tie (Korea), a political loss (the troops did their job well), one called because of lack of resolve (Desert Storm) and the current mess.
Wonder if Ike ****ed off God.

dydx
09-16-05, 01:30 PM
Brothers and Sisters,

Yes the ruling is messed up.

Yes many of us believe in the words of the Pledge of Allegiance.

Yes many of our brothers and sisters have shed their blood defending our great nation.

Though it saddens me to say this......I agree with the judge's ruling.

If we were to take away the liberty of those who wished to not utter the pledge of allegiance because of it's affirmation in God, then we dishonor all of our comrades who have sacrificed so much in order to give them that very freedom.

Yeahh it sucks, yeahh it makes me want to cry, and only we few who have proudly served can ever truly appreciate the freedom we have earned.

Semper Fi

Joseph P Carey
09-16-05, 03:01 PM
I say, it took an act of Congress to place those two words into the same Pledge that 12 Million Americans went to war with during the Second World War, and for the Korean War as well. Those same people that whispered these word when they looked upon Old Glory:
"I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands, one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."

Now, Congress should do the right thing and reverse itself, and to restore the Pledge as it was prior to 1954. There was nothing wrong with the Pledge before. It should not have been changed; most certainly not for a religious reason.

We live in the world of man and we live under The Constitution of the United States of America. What man has made, man can undo.

Joseph P Carey
09-16-05, 10:30 PM
It took me a while to find it, thank you Since1775 for your site.

For those that think Under God belongs in the Pledge to our flag, let me remind you of our own Marine Prayer, and when you read it, tell me how many times God is mentioned? The Marine Prayer, like the Pledge to the Flag, does not need the word God to be known by all who it is for, and all who believe in their God whenever it is read need not read the word.

Very cleaver those Marines! And, they are not Godless Liberals that do not bring the name God to the lips.

The Marines Prayer

Almighty Father, whose command is over all and whose love never fails, make me aware of Thy presence and obedient to Thy will. Keep me true to my best self, guarding me against dishonesty in purpose and deed and helping me to live so that I can face my fellow Marines, my loved ones, and Thee without shame or fear. Protect my family.

Give me the will to do the work of a Marine and to accept my share of responsibilities with vigor and enthusiasm. Grant me the courage to be proficient in my daily performance. Keep me loyal and faithful to my superiors and to the duties my Country and the Marine Corps have entrusted to me. Help me to wear my uniform with dignity, and let it remind me daily of the traditions which I must uphold.

If I am inclined to doubt, steady my faith; if I am tempted, make me strong to resist; if I should miss the mark, give me courage to try again.

Guide me with the light of truth and grant me wisdom by which I may understand the answer to my prayer.

Amen

redneck13
09-17-05, 04:41 PM
Judges? They are not to..."MAKE LAW", but to "ENFORCE IT." And the hell with the ACLU!!! If you're an "AMERICAN" and you refuse to resight the "Pledge of Allegience?" "THEN GET OUT OF MY COUNTRY." "IF You're not American, or some sort of bimbo, who thinks like this "pinhead" judge, "GET YOUR A______OUT OF MY COUNTRY." It is not prayer. It's not "MANDATORY FOR ANYONE TO SAY IT." But..."IF YOU'RE IN MY COUNTRY USING MY MONEY, AND OTHER'S?" "don't "KNOCK IT", YOU CAN STAND SILENT, BUT I'D MUCH RATHER YOU RECITE IT." "DON'T COME TO "MY" COUNTRY AND EXPECT US TO "LIVE" BY YOUR STANDARD." "OR IF YOU'RE AN AMERICAN AND OBJECT?" "DON'T EXPECT "US" "me" "them" TO HAVE IT YOUR WAY." This makes me sick to my stomach. All these nimrod judges who think they're mighter than the "CONSTITUTION", "GET OUT OF MY COUNTRY" YOU'RE A MENNACE TO MY COUNTRY!!!