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thedrifter
08-22-05, 07:24 AM
Borrowed from my hubby Mark aka The Fontman
http://p089.ezboard.com/bthefontmanscommunity

Published 20 August 05
Nothing tougher than an American Marine

"The deadliest weapon in the world is a Marine and his rifle."
— U.S. Army Gen. John J. "Black Jack" Pershing

This is one of those rare moments when it might be better if I were not a former Marine. Don't misunderstand me, I'm incredibly proud of my prior service as one of America's "few good men." But I'm afraid I may now come across as being somewhat less-than objective when I attempt to blast Navy fawning James F. Dunnigan out of the water (no pun intended). Here's why:

Last month, Dunnigan, acclaimed author and the editor in chief of Strategy Page, wrote a piece, "Why the U.S. Navy Is Creating a New Marine Corps," in which he said, "the toughest troops in the Navy Department are not the Marines, but the sailors who belong to the SEALs."

Tougher than Marines? Is he kidding? Is there anything on the planet "tougher" than those men who waded ashore at Tarawa in 1943, battled their way back from the frozen Chosin Reservoir in 1950, fought house-to-house for Hue City in 1968, captured 80 percent of the island of Grenada (though they only comprised 20 percent of the landing force) in 1983, or fought the worst sort of fight-to-the-death fanatics – often tooth-to-eyeball – in the 2004 battle for Fallujah?

How, pray tell, can anyone be tougher than that? Granted, one might be equally as tough, and there certainly are picked-men within special units who are trained for specific types of operations, and in that sense they may have more extensive training for those types of missions and specific equipment for special operations. But to suggest that those men are somehow tougher than U.S. Marines is just, well, not true.

Dunnigan goes on to wax philosophic about a newly proposed Naval infantry force or "expeditionary combat battalion" that would be comprised of some 600-700 sailors trained in infantry tactics. The battalion, if it becomes a reality, will be deployed in 2007 as an additional ground combat arm for the purposes of supporting riverine missions or conducting small direct-action operations along coastlines or on small islands. Such a force would also help relieve some of the pressure on Marine and Army units in Iraq and Afghanistan. It's an interesting concept hearkening back to the days when all sailors were trained to fight ashore and during boarding operations.

According to Dunnigan, the battalion "would obtain its manpower from those who apply to join the SEALs, but don't make it. The SEALs are a very selective organization, accepting less than one in ten of those who apply. Now the navy wants to do something with those high quality rejects." He goes on to say that the battalion is "expected to be higher quality than the Marines, something close to U.S. Army Special Forces."

So, the first thing we must consider is that this proposed Naval battalion is going to be comprised of men who didn't pack the gear to make it through an incredibly intense cycle of military training. They either quit, were turned down prior to training, got hurt, or were dropped for not measuring up to some aspect of training.

Can anyone imagine the Marine Corps referring to any form of "reject" as being "high quality?"

Secondly, Dunnigan suggests that these new Naval infantrymen (remember, these are SEAL-training "rejects" who Dunnigan suggests are still "tougher" and of "higher quality" than those K-Bar wielding leathernecks who stormed Fallujah) are "something close" to "Army Special Forces," which also suggests that Green Berets are not as "tough" or "high quality" as SEALs.

"Shooters are shooters," Navy SEAL Commander Richard "Rogue Warrior" Marcinko told me during an interview last summer for National Review Online. "Any spec-ops guy is good." The real difference, Marcinko continued, was in how "shooters" get to the fight.

"A SEAL has to lock-out from a submarine and swim ex-distance, carry a lot of extra equipment because of the maritime configuration – coming out of a ****ty environment – so we've done a full day's work by the time we get there," he said.

Again, this is based on intense training for a specific mission: In this case, raiding and coming to the raid from a nasty subsurface environment. Does that mean the raiders, who often strike before anyone knows they are there, are somehow "tougher" or of "higher quality" than the guy who arrives to the fight after a massive air or artillery softening of the enemy's position? Keep in mind the "guy" I'm speaking of – after spending less time in a training environment than a SEAL – has to fight the worst sorts of foes, and those foes often know the guy is coming before he arrives on scene.

So, who's really the toughest?

Now, I've long been a fan of Dunnigan – read his book How to Make War more than 20 years ago, and enjoyed The Perfect Soldier when it was first released back in 2003 – but perhaps the old military-write-meister is getting a bit long in the tooth for these kinds of comparisons. I actually say that with a bit of tongue in cheek, because I truly am a long-time fan and admirer of Mr. D., and his August 2nd article won't change that fact. But perhaps he might refer back to his own words.

In his book, The Perfect Soldier, Dunnigan suggests that some perceive Marines as being "natural born killers." He writes, "... soldiering has changed for most of the other troops in the world. It's fashionable to play down grim and costly ground combat in favor of precision weapons and push-button warfare. For this reason, the Marines are seen as a bunch of roughneck throwbacks. Yet, even today, in any of the two dozen wars being fought around the world, the troops who are the most successful are the ones that operate most like the Marines. What the Marines are may not be fashionable, but when you have to get close to the enemy, what they do works."

Indeed, and those sentiments were echoed by U.S. Navy Commander Mark Divine, a special operations expert tasked with writing one of two Defense Department-ordered Special Operations Command (SOCOM) evaluations on the a new Marine Corps SOCOM Detachment (see my interview with Divine on 16 Aug 05).

"Marines are kind of like Rangers, except they have their own Marine air and intel," Divine said, last week. "Marines also are Marines first, and they bring with them that culture, that drive, that loyalty, and everything that goes with being a Marine."

Fact is, the "quality" and "toughness" factor found in U.S. Marines is simply unmatched, and something that the other services have tried (with some measure of success) to duplicate. But there is simply no such thing as a soldier or sailor being "tougher" or of "higher quality" than a Marine. Even the Marines themselves acknowledge this fact within their own ranks where Force Recon Marines (Marines who in many ways are trained in similar skillcraft as SEALs) are not accorded any higher respect than lesser-trained Marines, because no individual Marine is considered to be superior to any other member of the Corps.

It is this very philosophy and approach to how the Corps is organized, trained, and each man physically, mentally, and emotionally toughened that literally saved lives during the fighting withdrawal from the aforementioned Chosin Reservoir. There, Marine support units were easily cannibalized and successfully thrown into the thick of the fight where they performed with the same dash, aplomb, and utter savagery against a numerically superior enemy as their Marine infantry counterparts.

And don't think the idea of "every Marine a rifleman" – thus every Marine a warrior – is not something that America's foes do not seriously consider. During the Korean War, a captured North Korean officer confessed, "Panic sweeps my men when they are facing the American Marines."

Chinese premier Mao Tse Tung himself issued a "death contract" on the entire 1st Marine Division, which he stated had the "highest combat effectiveness" of any unit in the U.S. armed forces. "It seems not enough for our four divisions to surround and annihilate [the 1st Marine Division's] two regiments," Mao said to the commander of the Chinese 9th Army Group. "You should have one or two more divisions as a reserve force."

As late as 1991, when coalition forces were positioned to launch a massive overland attack on Iraq from Saudi Arabia, more than 100,000 Iraqi soldiers were hunkered down behind coastal defenses along the Iraqi-Kuwaiti shoreline anticipating a landing by U.S. Marines, whom they had dubbed "Angels of Death." And these are but a few of countless examples of enemy forces taking seriously the fact that a U.S. Marine is the "toughest," the "highest quality," the finest combatant the American taxpayer can throw into the fight.

This does not mean to suggest that those members of a typical Marine rifle platoon are as well-versed in commando-styled special operations as those sailors in a SEAL platoon. They are not. Nor does any member of SEAL platoon have the soul of a Marine rifleman. And souls and rifles matter to the Marines.

In May 2004, Divine reported from Baghdad, "The Special Operations soldiers are not alone in their successes here in Iraq. The U.S. Marine Corps has, once again, proven itself to be the best fighting force in the history of mankind. The warrior ethic of the Marines is paralleled only by Special Operations Forces, and they manage to embed that spirit into 175,000 troops."

Divine adds, "Warriors display an ethic that requires them to hold themselves to a higher standard than the average person. They actively practice the art of discipline – which is from the same root word as 'disciple.' They are disciples of the art and science of improving themselves daily – in mind, body, and soul. They actively practice Honor. Honor is a way of life for Marines and SOF [special operations forces] warriors." Sage words from a SEAL officer who graduated from his Basic Underwater Demolition/SEAL training as class "honorman."

Which brings us back to what Dunnigan refers to as SEAL training "rejects." Fact is, many of them might not have been rejects had they been Marines first, because the Marine Corps, as the SEAL commander so eloquently stated, is "the best fighting force in the history of mankind."

So how does one even begin to compare a flawed warrior who has either quit or been unable to complete a training task (even if it is as rigorous as SEAL training) to an exhausted, unwashed, footsore 18-year-old Marine rifleman who has just returned from a stint in Iraq's Triangle of Death? Who's tougher?

Perhaps Dunnigan is trying to measure up to his moniker on his Strategy Page bio. There, he is billed as a "general troublemaker."

No mention of how tough he is.

— A former U.S. Marine infantry leader and paratrooper, W. Thomas Smith Jr. writes about military issues and has covered conflict in the Balkans and on the West Bank. He is the author of four books, and his articles have appeared in USA Today, George, U.S. News & World Report, BusinessWeek, and National Review Online.

W. Thomas Smith Jr. can be reached at editor@reportingwar.com.

© 2005 W. Thomas Smith Jr.

Ellie

Namvet67
08-22-05, 10:11 AM
Who's tougher? The one with the most will to win and is not afraid to die when called into harms way! Mental toughness is everything! Following orders and working together as a team..even if its means going into uncharted waters to accomplish the mission! I think the world knows the answer to this question! 230 years of proof is there for anyone to review!

yellowwing
08-22-05, 10:24 AM
...obtain its manpower from those who apply to join the SEALs, but don't make it.
What's this plan going to do the SEALs? If a candidate goes in knowing that if he doesn't make it, he'll be in the new Naval Infantry battalion anyway. They won't have to reach deep down and eat their guts to make it.

I vividly remember that moment in Parris Island when we were all beat to sh*t and still being pushed. I looked at my buddy and we both knew we would never quit.

Namvet67
08-22-05, 10:34 AM
Key word yellowwing..."Quit" Marines never quit...hell, we can't quit...they teach us how to do that in bootcamp!

Sgt Sostand
08-22-05, 11:02 AM
The Only Time a Marine Quit is when he"s dead