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View Full Version : Did Israel deliberately allow 241 American Marines to die?



Phantom Blooper
08-12-05, 10:26 AM
by Joseph Sobran

Yes, says Victor Ostrovsky, a former Israeli secret agent. In a new book, By Way of Deception: A Devastating Insider's Portrait of the Mossad, Mr. Ostrovsky says the Israelis had advance notice of the suicide attack that killed 241 Marines in Beirut in October 1983 but withheld the information from the United States in the hope that the attack would poison American Arab relations.
The Israeli government is desperately trying to block publication of the book, which also says the Israelis are "actively spying, recruiting, organizing and carrying out covert activities mainly in New York and Washington, which they refer to as their playground."

Although it can hardly succeed and will probably back fire, the censorship attempt enjoyed initial success in both the U.S. and Canada. Obliging courts in both countries have ordered that the book be at least temporarily suppressed When it comes to Israel, freedom of speech and of the press is considerably less than total, even in America.

Mr. Ostrovsky says Israeli agents heard he had written the book and tried to bribe and threaten him to dissuade him from going into print. He is now in hiding.

More than 17,000 copies of By Way of Deception are in print, and many reviewers have already received copies. If the book divulges sensitive information, as the Israelis' lawyers say, it's too late to stop other governments from getting it. The only purpose of the censorship is to stop Americans from reading Mr. Ostrovsky's account of how Israel allowed U.S. Marines to be slaughtered

Books are rarely suppressed in America (at least not by direct government intervention), and by the time you read this, By Way of Deception will almost certainly be unshackled. Then the Israelis will have to either discredit the author or argue, as they did in the case of the spy Jonathan Pollard, that the decision to let the Marines be killed was a "rogue" action.

Mr. Ostrovsky's allegations should be shocking. Letting the troops of a benefactor nation be blown up in their own compound is hardly the act of a "reliable ally," as Israel is said to be.

But you have to wonder whether anyone will really be shocked. The act would be consistent with a long pattern of reprehensible Israeli behavior toward the U.S. Some of it has been widely publicized; no doubt the largest part of it has never been discovered.

If anyone ought to be stunned, it's the many pundits who echo Israeli propaganda to the effect that Israel is America's only valuable and trustworthy ally in the Middle East. If they mean what they say, they should be publicly changing their minds, or at least demanding a thorough investigation into Israeli conduct toward this country.

Congress ought to be shocked, too, to the extent that its all-out support for Israel has been sincere rather than venal and cowardly. But how many of our elected representatives will dare, or care, to ask tough questions about whether our ties to Israel have done serious damage to this country's interests?

Such questions are not only long overdue, they are especially urgent right now, when the United States may be on the verge of a full-scale war in the Middle East, and the Israel lobby is eager to see America launch hostilities against Israel's chief enemy, Iraq.

The path of least resistance is to say nothing, to go on pretending that the interests of the U.S. and of Israel are virtually identical, to keep repeating that Israel is our "reliable ally" and "strategic asset." Any politician or journalist who says otherwise, even for the good of America, does so at risk to his career. That's why there is so little open debate on these matters. Even our press isn't fully free.

And now the Israeli government has mounted a direct attack on press freedom in America itself. It will be instructive to see whether the press corps goes on acting unshocked.

Joseph Sobran is a nationally syndicated columnist who now maintains a Website at http://www.sobran.com.

sgt.lane
08-12-05, 11:41 AM
That is crap!!!! WHY would you not advise one of your allies??????????????????????????????????????????/

mrbsox
08-12-05, 12:10 PM
Does

'KEEP YOUR FRIENDS CLOSE, AND YOUR ENEMIES CLOSER'

ring any bells ??

I find it hard to believe also, and don't want to. But just as OUR first obligation should be to the United States, so should there's be to Israel.

GunnyL
08-12-05, 12:30 PM
You guys should do some research into Israeli conduct towards Americans.
Israel has and will always look out for her own best interest, if that means American lives then that's just the cost of doing business.
Israel is not America's friend other than they keep their hand extended for the handouts they get from us. The Israeli's actively probed the Marine lines in Beirut and there were outright confrontations between the Marines and the Israeli soldiers.
Remember the USS Liberty? The Israeli's intentionally shot at a U.S. vessel which was flying a US Flag. They killed 24 Sailors during that attack. They did it because it was an ELINT ship and they didn't want the US to be able to prove that it was they and not the Egyptians who started the 6 day war.
There are a lot of good articles and books out about Israel, you should read some of them, you'll find some very intersting reading.

GunnyL

Nagalfar
08-12-05, 01:23 PM
There is on point that I feel comes before this, did Israel have advance intel on this happening? means what now I am not sure, but I DO KNOW this.. Ismalal Ascari, an Iranian, drove the 19-ton truck over the barbed wire fence around the barracks, past two guard posts, and into the center of the compound, it should have NEVER been allowed to get past the wire without the driver being killed, second where was American Intel? this truck bomb weighed in between 15,000 and 21,000 pounds of TNT. We couldn't get anything on this much explosives or simtex or what ever the hell they used being moved? If Israel knew and didnt give us a heads up the I say maybe we should rethink giving them so much aid and tech, but either way, if our Govt. wouldn't allow our brothers to defend themselves in Beirut of all damn places I blame our govt. even more than I blame anyone else, we knew up front they would be a target going in... At least President Reagan stepped up and took the blame for it.. it still didnt bring our brothers back.

GunnyL
08-12-05, 01:55 PM
You hit that one on the nose Nagalfar. It was ultimately the responsibility of the Officers in charge of Security of the Barracks and the U.S. Government in establishing the rules of engagement. If you read the book out by David Hunt, "They just don't get it" he specifically addresses the lapses in the Reagan Administration concerning the Beirut Bombings and the **** poor way in which they handled the situation.
My point above is related to the story about the book "By Way of Deception" which by the way was released in 1990 so the story is very old. You can get the book on Amazon and it's already out in Paperback. There is another thread that's active as regards to Israeli involvement in Beirut.

GunnyL

Joseph P Carey
08-12-05, 02:29 PM
Some of you people have a short memory! This is nothing new! It was known that the Massad had the information some years ago, and it did not tell the US about the intelligence, it is also known that the UN knew of the strike in advance, and again, did not inform the US about the threat.

The Marine standing duty in front of the building did not even have rounds in his weapon, as per orders, and by the time he had loaded a round into his weapon, the truck was through the fense and headed towards the building!

Let us also not forget the USS Liberty! The Israeli Army ordered the attack on the US Ship under the American Flag, Killing 31 Brother US Sailors and 2 Brother US Marines, and the wounding of 168 Brother Sailors and 1 Brother Marine!

http://home.cfl.rr.com/gidusko/liberty/
On Wednesday, June 8, 2005, the attorney for the USS Liberty Veterans Association filed a report with the Department of Defense detailing the war crimes the Israelis committed during their June 8, 1967 attack on the USS Liberty.

According to the directive that governs the submission of the report the Department of Defense is required to conduct an investigation. If they do not, we have recourse.

A copy of the press release in PDF format is at:
http://www.freewebs.com/gidusko/Lva_press_release.pdf"

A copy of the report in PDF format is at:
http://www.ussliberty.org/report/report.pdf

A copy of the report in HTML format is at
http://ussliberty.org/report/report.htm

USS Liberty, attacked by Israeli forces in the Eastern Mediterranean, 8 Jun. 1967, Sailors killed 31, Sailors wounded 168, Marines killed 2, Marines wounded 1

Phantom Blooper
08-12-05, 03:36 PM
The Israeli's actively probed the Marine lines in Beirut and there were outright confrontations between the Marines and the Israeli soldiers.

When I was in Lebanon in 1983 prior to the bombing of the Marine barracks and about three months after the embassy bombing my platoon was split up and sent to two different checkpoints. My Plt Sgt. went with part of the platoon to Checkpoint # 35 and I the Plt.Guide at the time stayed with the Plt. Cmdr. at Checkpoint# 69. The Israeli tanks were maintaining a position not far from my checkpoint,guesstamate 200 meters. The Lebanese army had a small out post right outside our checkpoint position. The Israeli tanks would come down and get as close to the railroad tracks... the cut off point about a hundred meters with the tanks just to upset the LAF and get them to swing the American provided M-16's up in the air and want to start firing ,so they could blow them away. The LAF did not know this was a joke to the Israeli's. They would do it just too watch them scramble .....although it was quite comical the Americans would have been right in the center of this firefight.

The Lt. and I watched what was going on and then put the remainder of the platoon/attachments in the bunkers and left our compound and approached the lead Israeli tank with the tank commander in it. He came roaring down the hill to the railroad tracks hot-dogging and showing off. When he did stop in a cloud of dust, he stuck his head out and spoke the most perfect English that a grammar teacher would be proud of. He spoke to us and said that they have been doing that since the end of the "Hundred Day War" whenever they felt they could get a rise out of the LAF. He was a duel citizen of the United States and Israel and educated at Harvard,an had big business interests in the states. They agreed to stop the harassment of the LAF at least for awhile and they tried to make it strictly on their terms....but that didn't work since our checkpoint was right in the crossfire. They also more or less stated that if they did fire upon the LAF that they could have claimed that they,the LAF fired first and nothing would have been said because the U.S. administration would have taken Israelis side. History repeats itself..yes!

Semper-Fi! "Never Forget" Chuck Hall

Kegler300
08-12-05, 04:03 PM
Another reason why we need to do everything to ensure OUR intelligence service is second to none!

Joseph P Carey
08-12-05, 07:18 PM
USS Liberty, a sad day for the Administration of President Kennedy and the Democrat Congress of the USA, in defense of Israel over the Lives of US Servicemen:

The "Moorer Commission" (Chaired by Adm. Moorer) investigated the attack and made the following findings:

"We, the undersigned, having undertaken an independent investigation of Israel's attack on USS Liberty, including eyewitness testimony from surviving crewmembers, a review of naval and other official records, an examination of official statements by the Israeli and American governments, a study of the conclusions of all previous official inquiries, and a consideration of important new evidence and recent statements from individuals having direct knowledge of the attack or the cover up, hereby find the following:

1. That on June 8, 1967, after eight hours of aerial surveillance, Israel launched a two-hour air and naval attack against USS Liberty, the world's most sophisticated intelligence ship, inflicting 34 dead and 173 wounded American servicemen (a casualty rate of seventy percent, in a crew of 294);

2. That the Israeli air attack lasted approximately 25 minutes, during which time unmarked Israeli aircraft dropped napalm canisters on USS Liberty's bridge, and fired 30mm cannons and rockets into our ship, causing 821 holes, more than 100 of which were rocket-size; survivors estimate 30 or more sorties were flown over the ship by a minimum of 12 attacking Israeli planes which were jamming all five American emergency radio channels;

3. That the torpedo boat attack involved not only the firing of torpedoes, but the machine-gunning of Liberty's firefighters and stretcher-bearers as they struggled to save their ship and crew; the Israeli torpedo boats later returned to machine-gun at close range three of the Liberty's life rafts that had been lowered into the water by survivors to rescue the most seriously wounded;

4. That there is compelling evidence that Israel's attack was a deliberate attempt to destroy an American ship and kill her entire crew; evidence of such intent is supported by statements from Secretary of State Dean Rusk, Undersecretary of State George Ball, former CIA director Richard Helms, former NSA directors Lieutenant General William Odom, USA (Ret.), Admiral Bobby Ray Inman, USN (Ret.), and Marshal Carter; former NSA deputy directors Oliver Kirby and Major General John Morrison, USAF (Ret.); and former Ambassador Dwight Porter, U.S. Ambassador to Lebanon in 1967;

5. That in attacking USS Liberty, Israel committed acts of murder against American servicemen and an act of war against the United States;

6. That fearing conflict with Israel, the White House deliberately prevented the U.S. Navy from coming to the defense of USS Liberty by recalling Sixth Fleet military rescue support while the ship was under attack; evidence of the recall of rescue aircraft is supported by statements of Captain Joe Tully, Commanding Officer of the aircraft carrier USS Saratoga, and Rear Admiral Lawrence Geis, the Sixth Fleet carrier division commander, at the time of the attack; never before in American naval history has a rescue mission been cancelled when an American ship was under attack;

7. That although Liberty was saved from almost certain destruction through the heroic efforts of the ship's Captain, William L. McGonagle (MOH), and his brave crew, surviving crewmembers were later threatened with "court-martial, imprisonment or worse" if they exposed the truth; and were abandoned by their own government;

8. That due to the influence of Israel's powerful supporters in the United States, the White House deliberately covered up the facts of this attack from the American people;

9. That due to continuing pressure by the pro-Israel lobby in the United States, this attack remains the only serious naval incident that has never been thoroughly investigated by Congress; to this day, no surviving crewmember has been permitted to officially and publicly testify about the attack;

10. That there has been an official cover-up without precedent in American naval history; the existence of such a cover-up is now supported by statements of Rear Admiral Merlin Staring, USN (Ret.), former Judge Advocate General of the Navy; and Captain Ward Boston, USN, (Ret.), the chief counsel to the Navy's 1967 Court of Inquiry of Liberty attack;

11. That the truth about Israel's attack and subsequent White House cover-up continues to be officially concealed from the American people to the present day and is a national disgrace;

12. That a danger to our national security exists whenever our elected officials are willing to subordinate American interests to those of any foreign nation, and specifically are unwilling to challenge Israel's interests when they conflict with American interests; this policy, evidenced by the failure to defend USS Liberty and the subsequent official cover-up of the Israeli attack, endangers the safety of Americans and the security of the United States.

WHEREUPON, we, the undersigned, in order to fulfill our duty to the brave crew of USS Liberty and to all Americans who are asked to serve in our Armed Forces, hereby call upon the Department of the Navy, the Congress of the United States and the American people to immediately take the following actions:

FIRST: That a new Court of Inquiry be convened by the Department of the Navy, operating with Congressional oversight, to take public testimony from surviving crewmembers; and to thoroughly investigate the circumstances of the attack on the USS Liberty, with full cooperation from the National Security Agency, the Central Intelligence Agency and the military intelligence services, and to determine Israel's possible motive in launching said attack on a U.S. naval vessel;

SECOND: That every appropriate committee of the Congress of the United States investigate the actions of the White House and Defense Department that prevented the rescue of the USS Liberty, thereafter threatened her surviving officers and men if they exposed the truth, and covered up the true circumstances of the attack from the American people; and

THIRD: That the eighth day of June of every year be proclaimed to be hereafter known as

USS LIBERTY REMEMBRANCE DAY, in order to commemorate USS Liberty's heroic crew; and to educate the American people of the danger to our national security inherent in any passionate attachment of our elected officials for any foreign nation.

We, the undersigned, hereby affix our hands and seals, this 22nd day of October, 2003.

Admiral Thomas H. Moorer, USN, Ret.
Former Chairman, Joint Chiefs of Staff

General of Marines Raymond G. Davis, USMC, MOH

Former Commandant of the United States Marine Corps

Merlin Staring
Rear Admiral Merlin Staring, USN, Ret.,
Former Judge Advocate General of the Navy,

James Akins
Ambassador James Akins, Ret.,
Former United States Ambassador to Saudi Arabia"

Phantom Blooper
08-13-05, 08:50 AM
Mossad´s Record

In Victor Ostrovsky's book, "By Way of Deception: A Devastating Insider's Portrait of the Mossad" (Toronto: Stoddart, 1990) we discover many remarkable things about this "extreme right" organization.



•Who is Victor Ostrovsky?

"Ostrovsky, a Canadian born of an Israeli mother and Canadian Jewishfather, spent most of his formative years in Holon, Israel. He was, at age 18, the youngest officer in the Israeli military. A weapons-testing expert, he was recruited by the Mossad and completed their extensive training program, becoming a katsa, or case officer, only to grow disillusioned with the organization's aims and operations and return to Canada."

In his own words:

"I was elated when I was chosen and granted the privilege to join what I considered to be the elite team of the Mossad.

But it was the twisted ideals and self-centered pragmatism that I encountered inside the Mossad, coupled with this so-called team's greed, lust, and total lack of respect for human life, that motivated me to tell this story.

It is out of love for Israel as a free and just country that I am laying my life on the line by so doing, facing up to those who took it upon themselves to turn the Zionist dream into the present-day nightmare."

•Spying on American Citizens

First off, we learn that the Mossad often receives information from the CIA, while it has a policy of never giving such information out - even if the lives of Americans are in danger. Also, we discover that a super-secret division of the Mossad (called Al) is active in New York and Washington - engaged in spying on American citizens, recruiting Jewish "helpers", and carrying out covert activities. It employs between 24 and 27 field personnel, and most of their activity is with U.S. borders (primarily New York and Washington).

•Systemic Utilization of Jewish Abuse of Position

We discover also that, thanks to the threat of anti-Semitism, the Mossad can tap the "significant and loyal cadre of the worldwide Jewish community outside Israel." These volunteer Jewish helpers, placed in convenient positions, can, say, help agents secure documents from their employer's office, or money if needed, or keys to a person's room in the hotel where they work (for assassination).

Apparently the threat of anti-Semitism, which is exaggerated by orthodox groups to enforce cohesivity, results in a reflexive betrayal of social positions and trusts whenever the specter of anti-Semitism is manifested by Mossad agents.

•The Bombing of an Innocent Libya

We are informed, in Victor Ostrovsky's next book "The Other Side of Deception", that the Mossad was the controlling force responsible for the American action against both Libya and Iraq. It is a remarkable story of how American sentiment was manipulated by the subterfuges of a foreign country, the outcome of which could only entail the risking of American lives (Iraq: at least 600 dead) and the enmity of the Arab world.

The Mossad placed a transmitter on Libyan soil which made it appear that Libya was sending terrorist orders to its various embassies, which the gullible Americans decoded and considered to be real, even though they failed to predict the attack on Le Discotheque in West Germany which - ironically - was the very "provocation" which was used to justify the strike.

Only the French, whose secret service is more astute at recognizing the hand of Mossad, were not fooled. And this was the reason why the French did not allow the United States to use their airspace for what was, in essence, an aggressive act against an innocent party - An act which resulted in the death of three Americans and forty Libyan civilians, including Qadhafi's adopted daughter.

•The Persian Gulf War

"Even as early as May 1, 1986 was the Mossad working on building up Saddam Hussein as a great threat to the world. The main reason for this was the threat his giant armies posed to Israel after the Iran-Iraq war which had previously occupied him. This is the REAL reason we bombed Iraq. The story of this Jewish action is of greater complexity, since it spanned a greater length of time - in which the American public was successively propagandized through a wide variety of sources.

"The Mossad's psychological warfare machine activated every agent it had, including volunteer agents in Amnesty international and fully bought members of the U.S. congress to portray Saddam Hussein as a great threat to the world. Grisly footage of the Mossad-financed Kurds who were killed, casualties of the ongoing guerrilla war with Bagdad, were shown on Jewish run U.S. television.

"An Iraqi explosives factory was blown up by Mossad operatives to generate publicity about the gigantic and powerful military arsenal that Saddam was bulding. And after the explosion, when the Iraqis invited journalists to see how their rebuilding efforts were going, a Mossad agent approached a former agent, who had been caught prying into Mossad affairs in search of a story, to join the reporters going to Iraq to gather information on the factory - threatening to reveal his criminal background if he didn't participate in the action. This former agent was caught spying in Iraq, arrested, and hanged. We were led by our press to believe that he was a 'Western journalist'.

"To further exascerbate the situation, a Mossad sayanin [a member of the Jewish community who helps out Mossad agents] sent documents to ABC television with a story from a 'reliable' Middle Eastern source telling of a plant Saddam had for the manufacturing of uranium - to suggest that he was developing nuclear capability.

Through the bullet-riddled body of Gerald Bull [assassinated by the Mossad], the eyes of the world would be made to focus on his work: the Iraqi giant gun project called Babylon. The timing had to be right, though; Bull's well-publicized demise had to come right after an act of terror by the regime in Baghdad, an act that could not be mistaken for an accident or a provocation. The hanging of the Observer 'reporter' on March 15 was such an act."

"In the following weeks, more and more 'discoveries' were made regarding the big gun and other elements of the Saddam war machine. The Mossad had all but saturated the intelligence field with information regarding the evil intentions of 'Saddam the Terrible', banking on the fact that before long, he'd have enough rope to hang himself.... The Mossad leaders know that if they could make Saddam appear bad enough and a threat to the Gulf oil supply, of which he'd been the protector up to that point, then the United States and its allies would not let him get away with anything, but would take measures that would all but eliminate his army and his weapons potential, especially if they were led to believe that this might just be their last chance before he went nuclear."

It worked, the Americans were fooled. And approximately SIX-HUNDRED Americans died in the conflict - a fact which has been effectively down-played by the media.

•The Attempted Assassination of George Bush

And what happened when an American President tried to stop the Jewish tail from wagging the American dog?

"Against the wishes of the angry Jewish community, George Herbert Bush had put a freeze on all loan guarantees to Israel, which were to come to a total of ten billion dollars over the next five years.... Upon making that decision, the president was instantly placed on the blacklist of every Jewish organization in the United States, and regarded as the greatest enemy of the state of Israel.... A certain right-wing clique in the Mossad picked the Madrid peace talks as its staging ground.... Three Palestinian extremists were taken by [an assassination] unit from their hiding place in Beirut. It was clear from the start that the assassination would be blamed on the Palestinians - perhaps ending once and for all their irritating resistance and making them the people most hated by Americans."

It is ironic that the result of this assassination attempt was yet another strike against Iraq.

•Testing of Biological Weapons, Infectious Diseases on Palestinians and Blacks

Finally, we must point out the Mossad involvement with the testing of biological weapons on Palestinians and Blacks. The assassination of an American President is a bad thing; but these biological weapons are being readied to be unleashed on Europe if any armies attempt to re-conquer Palestine. In many ways, we are reminded of certain prophecies in the book of revelations, about Armies gathering against "the holy land" and the unleashing of various nightmarish plagues and earthquakes upon mankind. But this is a known reality, and anyone concerned about the future of the world should demand that Israel's biological "doomsday" weapons be eliminated.

"[the Nes Ziyyona facility was] an ABC warfare laboratory - ABC standing for atomic, bacteriological, and chemical. It was where our top epidemiological scientists were developing various doomsday machines.... The Palestinian infiltrators came in handy in this regard. As human guinea pigs, they could [be used to] make sure the weapons the scientists were developing worked properly and could verify how fast they worked and make them even more efficient."

Interesting enough, considering the strange prevalence of AIDS in Africa, we discover that the Mossad also tested infectious diseases on blacks in Soweto Africa in 1986.

radio relay
08-13-05, 10:51 AM
OK, so you don't like the Israelis. What else is your point?

It's no secret that the Israelis are not always the most reliable, and their military doesn't hold the U.S. military in very high respect. However, the U.S. has not exactly made the best decisions either.

Look at what the U.S. did after the barracks bombing. We stuck our tails between our legs and ran like scared pups. You think that this didn't embolden the stinking islamic arab terrorists, and put Israel in a precarious position?

Also, the Israelis endured being hit by numerous rockets from Iraq during the first Gulf war, but at the request of the U.S., did nothing to retaliate

The Israelis aren't perfect allies, but they sure as hell are better friends to the U.S. than any of the other countries in the Middle East, and the world, for that matter.

Joseph P Carey
08-13-05, 04:05 PM
Originally posted by radio relay
OK, so you don't like the Israelis. What else is your point?

It's no secret that the Israelis are not always the most reliable, and their military doesn't hold the U.S. military in very high respect. However, the U.S. has not exactly made the best decisions either.

Look at what the U.S. did after the barracks bombing. We stuck our tails between our legs and ran like scared pups. You think that this didn't embolden the stinking islamic arab terrorists, and put Israel in a precarious position?

Also, the Israelis endured being hit by numerous rockets from Iraq during the first Gulf war, but at the request of the U.S., did nothing to retaliate

The Israelis aren't perfect allies, but they sure as hell are better friends to the U.S. than any of the other countries in the Middle East, and the world, for that matter.

For the record, Radio, Allies don't fire on American ships, and then come in and rake the decks with Machine gun fire to kill all the witnesses, after they have just bombed the ship with bombs made in the USA, delivered on jets that were made in the USA, and shot cannon fire with rounds made in the USA, and, not to mention hitting the ship with five torpedoes made in the USA.

What you do not know is that the Israelis were going onto that ship with Commandoes from helicopters to finish off the job, but the Sailors and Marines on the ship were prepared to repel boarders, and the copters turned and went back to Israel. They were going to murder every last soul on that ship to keep their secret! What kind of an Ally is that?

The truth is that the Israelis would fall as easy as anyone else to the USA. They have a limited logistics, and they could not long match the USA in fire power, or in might, for very long! The difference is, we are not murderers! And, maybe, for that reason alone, they would laugh at us, but you can bet your last shekel, if the USA was coming to get them, they would respect the US Military in quick order, and all the IDF would die, and the Massad would turn coats to our side against their own people!

They started off with a terrorist campaign in the Palestine Region. They blew up innocent families of British Soldiers in the King David Hotel. They most certainly are terrorist! And, their leaders were Terrorists as well! It is just that our Congress makes a lot of money off of these zealots!

If you are not Jewish in Israel, you have no rights. It is similar to the USA before the 1960s with the Blacks. They are a socialist country that has no use for democracy. They are a religious theocracy, just like Osama bin Laden would install in the Central and Middle East! But, they are our allies!

Mark my words, Israel's time will come, and it will come at the hands of the Americans, and it will come with not much more effort than it took us to knock out any other nation! We have a lot of pay-back coming to us, but in the mean time, they are our (Cough) Ally!

I am not anti-Jew by any stretch of the imagination, but I am anti-Zealot. Hell! The Tonkin Resolution was fostered by much less than what was done by Israel to us! It is all politics that the State of Israel is still standing, thanks to President Johnson and the Democrat Congress of the USA in the 1960's! They did not go after Israel for what they did to the Liberty, and they stabbed us in the back in South Vietnam! It is all Democrat Politics! I am ashamed of them!

If you bring up Beirut, than you must know that our only alternative was to turn against the total of the factions there, including the Israelis and the UN, and the President was not willing to do that! We had a military that was in ruins since the end of the Vietnam war, because of Congress, and this made it a no win situation! It was a good move to just get the hell out of there, Congress would never have allowed the President to strike back at all the forces in the area!

As far as putting Israel in a situation, if they would have told us of the intelligence they had, maybe those men would not be dead now! Israel did not tell us, because they wanted us involved in the area, they just did not know that so many would die in the attack! And, they did not figure on the US President pulling his troops from the area! The Israelis blew it!

Nagalfar
08-13-05, 05:12 PM
radio relay, when it comes to allies of America.. there is NONE better than the Aussies.. they have been a part of every war/police action/skirmish we have ever sent a American to fight it, the Aussies have always been at Americas side, to allow someone else who does not deserve that honor, does a great disservice to those who have.. so when it comes to friends of America, you should know who they are if you are going to reference them.. all I am saying is give them the honor they have fought and died for..

Joseph P Carey
08-13-05, 06:39 PM
Originally posted by Nagalfar
radio relay, when it comes to allies of America.. there is NONE better than the Aussies.. they have been a part of every war/police action/skirmish we have ever sent a American to fight it, the Aussies have always been at Americas side, to allow someone else who does not deserve that honor, does a great disservice to those who have.. so when it comes to friends of America, you should know who they are if you are going to reference them.. all I am saying is give them the honor they have fought and died for..

I agree, no greater friend in war does the US have than the People of Downunder! No worst enemy does the USA have than our ally in Israel!

I have never heard of an Australian Spy in our Pentagon stealing our secrets, and I have never seen where an Australian Combat Team has struck a US Ship of War and gunned down the American Crew with machine gun fire as they were coming on to the decks to fight fires and remover the wounded from harms way, and never have I seen the Australians shoot up life boats being loaded with wounded Sailors and Marines, but perhaps I have an entirely different idea of what an ally is.

It is obvious that there were Jews amongst the dead US Sailors and Marines on board the Liberty, because they were all Americans, so don't give me that crap about hating Jews. I do not! I only hate enemies of the USA!

radio relay
08-14-05, 08:49 AM
All you folks who hate Israel, try living in the Middle East for awhile.

Israel ain't perfect, but they sure are light years ahead of any other country in that area when it comes to being a friend of the US.

Go ahead and demonize our only real ally there. That's sure doing a lot of good for our troops in the region!!

Obviously, you do have a "different" idea it. Too bad you're wrong!!! Been listening to the leftwing press too much?

Joseph P Carey
08-14-05, 10:28 AM
Oh! Radio! Do you really think the USS Liberty attack did not happen? Do you really think it is all a mistaken Identity situation as Israel has claimed all of these years? Do you really think it is a Left Wing plot to discredit the State of Israel?

If you do do? You are nothing more than an ideological pawn being used by Israel against your own country! Shame on you!

The only reason the attack on the USS Liberty occurred was to cover-up the sneak attack on the Arab neighbors of Israel in Egypt, Jordan, Syria, and Lebanon! The Israeli Government claimed to have been attacked in the 1967 War, yet they caught Offfensive Military Installations unaware with the suddeness of a supposed response to the claimed attack! No one can launch Offensive Operations with Division after Division as a Counter Attack within minutes of a prevocation! Israel takes the world as fools, and you also!

Let me guess Radio! You have an ulterior motive in the case of Israel! You have chosen blind ignorance over obvious fact! You have let yourself be a sheep to the propaganda of another Country's doctrine of lies!

Tell me that the Israelis did not start off the State of Israel as a Terrorist War, after Jew and Arab had lived in the area in relative peace for 30 years up to the end of WWII!
Tell me that Terrorists were not elected to the Highest Office in the State of Israel!
Tell me that Israel did not initiate the 1967 War!
Tell me Israel did not break agreements to not put settlements into the West Bank and Gaza!
Tell me Israel did not break every agreement they have ever signed!
Tell me Israel did not have information that would have saved our Marines in Lebanon, and did not share it with us!
Tell me Israel did not viciously attack and MURDER US Sailors and US Marines on the USS Liberty!
And, Tell me that Israeli Agents have not been caught spying on the USA, a la Pollard and others!

Maybe, the only one here 'brain washed' with a particular ideology is you, Radio?

radio relay
08-14-05, 11:31 AM
Just didn't realize it was about to fall out http://imagehost.biz/ims/pictes/203681.gif

Funny how you can list every so-called transgression by Israel, but don't seem to give a damn about the dirty deeds of Arab Islamic states.

Guess you have your eyes and ears wide open and on the lookout for any transgression that Israel might make, but could care less about the daily attrocities of muslims.

There are no Jewish "terrorists" in Israel, but sure are a bunch of Islamic ones. They blow up babies on buses all the time. There were "Freedom Fighters" that eventually became leaders in Israel.

No, Israel did not start the '67 war. It was Syria, and Egypt.

Israel has not broken every agreement they ever signed. Wonder why the Sinai is now back in Egypt's hands? Did they sign an agreement to keep it?

How do you know that Israel didn't share information with the U.S.? And, how do you know this socalled inside information that Israel had would have saved anyone? And, how you even know what the Israelis had? Believe every leftwing, anti-Israel/anti-American puff piece you read?

Don't blame Israel for the great debacle in Beirut!!!

First and formost blame the stinking islamic terorists who did it!

Next on the list to get blame would be Ronald Reagan, the CIA, and PX Kelly for not understanding the threat, and not committing enough troops, and then not supporting those they eventually put there.

If Israel has any blame at all (which it doesn't), it is way down at the bottom of the list!!

Yeah, they've spied on us, and the attack on our own spy ship was inexcusable. I'm not going to defend it. However those black marks on the relationship of the United States with Israel, do not even come close to wiping out the help we have gotten from them in fighting our common enemy... Islamofascist terrorism!

Need some soap for your brain? Maybe something to tighten up that screw?http://www.asturcon3.com/emicons/KOLOBOK/aiwan_smiles/tease.gif

yellowwing
08-14-05, 11:35 AM
I can't remember the particular Islamic Holy Place in that region. But the latest spark that initiated this latest years of "difficulties" was ignited by then dignitary Ariel Sharon's visit to a Islamic Holy place.

The anticipated over reaction of Muslims was jihad. Before then everything was peace and prosperity.

Sharon then used the Jihad, which he started, as an election campaign moniker that got him elected.

Previously, Sharon was relieved of duties for the massacre of civilians in Lebanon.

Arguably, he started the latest fighting, now he is in the sh*t trying to solve it. Good for him.

radio relay
08-14-05, 01:39 PM
His visted the Wailing Wall (also known as the Temple Mount), which is right next to the Al Aqsa mosque (aka The Dome Of The Rock).

The Wailing Wall is the most sacred Jewish place of worship. Sharon is a Jew. He has the right to visit a Jewish holy site.

Al Aqsa is the second most holy place in islam. It is said to be the spot from which Mohammed ascended into Heaven. It is right next to the Wailing Wall.

The foolish, and ignorant islamic terrorists are trying to say that Sharon didn't have the right to visit Jerusalem, which they claim belongs only to muslims, and nobody else, not even Christians (kind of like Mecca). So, they are trying to use that as yet another lame excuse to make trouble.

Gotta stop using the CBC as your source of information. They are lunatics and anti-American/anti-Jewish propagandists.

Joseph P Carey
08-14-05, 04:22 PM
Radio, The problem is Loyalty versus Facts!

You my dear friend have a loyalty to Israel over the Country that educated you and you grew up in!

The facts are clear! You deny them because of your loyalty to Israel! They say, "They are blind who will not open their eyes!"

The region breeds Terrorism! Israel was primary in the game of terrorism. It always has been! Have you ever read of the King David Hotel? And, just who it was that was a part of the attack on innocent Brit Agencies and Families living in the Hotel? They not only killed Brits, but Jews as well. Allow me to enlighten you to the Terrorism of the Israelis. For the record, it was not their first act of terrorism, nor was it their last, it became the policy of the government of Israel:

On July 22, 1946, members of the Zionist underground militia Irgun in the British Mandate of Palestine exploded a bomb at the King David Hotel in Jerusalem. The hotel was the base for the British Secretariat, the military command and a branch of the Criminal Investigation Division (police). 91 people were killed, most of them civilians: 28 British, 41 Arab, 17 Jewish, and 5 other. Around 45 people were injured.

The attack was initially ordered by David Ben Gurion, who was in the United States, but he later changed his mind and ordered the bombing to be cancelled. But Menachem Begin, the head of Irgun, went ahead anyway. Both Ben Gurion and Begin would later become Israeli Prime Ministers. The attack was commanded by Yosef Avni and Yisrael Levi.

Go ahead, deny it now, that no leader of Israel was, or is, a Terrorist! They all were, it is the government policy!

For the record, I do not watch CBC TV, I find my own sources of information, and, added to that, I have lived History with my eyes open! Again, for the record, you are not talking to a religious man, here!

radio relay
08-14-05, 08:08 PM
One man's "terrorist" is another man's "Freedom Fighter"...

Sorry Carey, they were "Freedom Fighters"

Keep on livin' history, man. Somebody has to...

Joseph P Carey
08-14-05, 08:54 PM
Originally posted by radio relay
One man's "terrorist" is another man's "Freedom Fighter"...

Sorry Carey, they were "Freedom Fighters"

Keep on livin' history, man. Somebody has to...

Hell! Radio, I expected the old company line that I am an anti Semitic, or something like that. You do know the company line, do you not? You voiced it once before on here! Below is some dialogue about the Israeli Version of what was written by the author Cristol in 'the Liberty Incident' Let us see what sounds familiar here we may even get the remarks about being Anti-Israel, and much to my surprise, there it is! Read on:

...reply by the Israeli Defense Forces to an inquiry concerning what appear to be deliberately altered photos displayed in A. Jay Cristol’s 'The Liberty Incident', and represented as Israeli gun camera photos taken during the attack. This reply unequivocally states that other than a photo of Moshe Dayan, none of the remaining photos in The Liberty Incident were taken or provided by Israeli sources.

Rather than attempt to refute the facts and arguments put forward by the Liberty survivors, Israel and its surrogates in the United States have resorted to baseless ad hominem attacks that are unworthy of inclusion in reasonable discourse. Typical of the vilification of the survivors of the attack and their supporters are the following representative comments:

A. J. Cristol, reported in the Miami Herald, July 15, 2002:
AJC: The victims of the tragedy are typical of victims of friendly fire. They find it difficult to believe that they were wounded or their buddies were killed by mistake. In this case the victims have been imposed upon, used and abused by groups with their own agendas. First, are those who are on the Arab side of the Arab/Israeli conflict and who try to use the tragedy to drive a wedge into the otherwise excellent relationship between the United States and Israel. Next are those persons who are anti-Semitic or anti-Israel. And finally there are the conspiracy buffs. For the reasons indicated these three groups have continued to probe the wounds of the victims for their own purposes and are not concerned with healing or closure. [Emphasis added]

Now, that is the official line the you proposed is it not? The USS Liberty was an accident, and the victims are being coerced by Anti-Israel Bad Guys. The same with your denial that BenGurion and Begen were Terrorists!

Let us see some differences:
Osama bin Laden attacked the USA because of the USA's involvement in the Middle East, and The Irgun, under the leadership of Ben Gurion and Begen attacked the Brits, because of their involvement in the Middle East.

Osama bin Laden wants to take a country through terror, as he had in Afghanistan, and promote the teaching of the Muslim, with the exclusion of all others of different belief; The Israelis did take the Palestine Area and promoted Judaism through terror, with the exclusion of all others.

Tell me what the difference is here! Both are terrorist organizations!

For the record: I have never seen an anti Semitic Arab, have you? Also, for the record, the Jews and the Arabs are both of the Semitic Tribes. That is History!

radio relay
08-14-05, 09:20 PM
That's your problem.

You love Bin Ladin?

That's your problem, too.

What a guy! Living history, loving islamic terroists, and hating our jewish friends.

Ain't nuthin' like "open minded" liberal logic.

Ok you post some more lunacy.

Had my say. Made my point... 'nuff said.

Joseph P Carey
08-15-05, 12:11 PM
Originally posted by radio relay
That's your problem.

You love Bin Ladin?

That's your problem, too.

What a guy! Living history, loving islamic terroists, and hating our jewish friends.

Ain't nuthin' like "open minded" liberal logic.

Ok you post some more lunacy.

Had my say. Made my point... 'nuff said.

I show you facts, Radio, and you give me Propaganda and Rhetoric! You insult me, and you insult your own intelligence! Boy, are you brain washed! You keep spouting the 'Company Line'! You seem to forget that there are other people inside of Israel, not just Jews, but they have no rights in a Theocracy.

Do you know that if a Jew marries outside the religion in Israel, that Jew will lose all of his/her rights in the State of Israel, and the marriage is not considered legal? Deportation may follow! That is the same thing that Islamic Fanatics do in the name of their religion! SO, what is the difference?

Whether you know it, or you believe it, it does not matter to me, but I have, and I have always had, respect for Jews, I just don't have any respect for the State of Israel. Their government is a government with its base in terrorism and deception. They are no better than the Fundamentalist Muslims that we now pursue, they just know who to bribe in our government better than anyone else!

Your retorts are the actions of a spoiled child that just will not see! Insult all you want, my eyes are open and yours are not! I hate Zealots! I don't care if they are Christian, Atheist, Jewish, Muslim, PETA, or what, if a country, organization, or fellowship does not measure up to our US Constitutional standards, than they are our enemies, make no misconceptions about that. For example, I place Saudi Arabia and Israel in the same box, neither are our real friends, and niether measure up to our Constitutional standards, but both are our allies, and the both can not be trusted!

yellowwing
08-15-05, 01:16 PM
His visited the Wailing Wall (also known as the Temple Mount), which is right next to the Al Aqsa mosque (aka The Dome Of The Rock).
September 28th, 2000 he visited the Temple Mount, the Islamic part of the religious site. The Hebrew's Wailing Wall stands at the foot of the Temple Mount.

He made his intention known 4 days in advance and was warned by the Palestinian Authority, some in the Knesset also had misgivings on the visit. But as a Knesset member there was nothing that they could do to prevent his 'free movement'.

Researched from Shalom Jerusalem Feb 1, 2001 (http://www.shalomjerusalem.com/jerusalem/jerusalem37.htm) reprinting an official Israeli Government release.

Joseph P Carey
08-15-05, 03:44 PM
You do know, Radio, you have gotten it all wrong! We are not fighting solely the Islamic Terrorists! We are fighting Terrorism! The government of Israel most certainly qualifies! After all, the IRA seems to have fallen by the wayside ever since the attack on NYC.

I will make you a small bet right now. I will say that when all the Israelis are our of Gaza, that the Israeli Army goes back in for a 'final solution' to the Hamas Problem, with a 'No Quarter' policy, and a policy that all peoples in the area are to be considered 'Enemy Targets'!

What ever happened to the phrase "Never forget"? Did the Israelis forget that the phrase was not made only for them, but was to apply to any class of people that were being systematically eliminated by another class of people?

Where is the inclusion of other people and beliefs in Israel? It is non-existent!

Let us look at the American that was run over by the Israeli tank in the West Bank. I may not agree with her politics, but she did not need to die under the tracks of an Israeli Tank. She was clearly seen by the driver of the tank, but he ran over her like she was so much trash in the street. IS this the way that the Israelis 'Never forget'?

You do know that I can switch back to 1930s and 1940s Germany, and change the names from Jew to Palestinian, and I can hear the same phrases spoken today in Israel.

Beware the backlash!!! Germany felt it, and Israel will too! It will just take time!

radio relay
08-15-05, 04:19 PM
I'm going to violate my own rules against responding to fools... but only this once! Apologies to the forum admins.
============================

Don't get cheeky with me you lame brain idiot!

You come on here acting like you're some kind of intellect, but you're little more than a pea brained, Jew hating ninny trying to impress with some old moldy crap about people who are long dead, and inane sillyness about Israelis being terrorists.

That kind of thing is not deserving of polite acceptance!

Take your ludicrous assertions, and stick them in the same place you keep whatever it is that passes for your brain.

Now, I won't be back in this thread. So from here on, you and your buddy yellowwing will be free to post more fatuous absurdity. However remember this... The more you write, the more your stripes show!!!

Out!

yellowwing
08-15-05, 04:37 PM
I try to be absolutely fastidious in documenting my assertions. I have the utmost support for Israel. I also have many trusted Hebrew friends that I regularly converse with. The freedoms both nations enjoy allow us to question the judgement of our respective leaders.

I support the Hebrew State, but I do call into question political moves that prove to be unwise.

Joseph P Carey
08-15-05, 04:45 PM
Originally posted by radio relay
I'm going to violate my own rules against responding to fools... but only this once! Apologies to the forum admins.
============================

Don't get cheeky with me you lame brain idiot!

You come on here acting like you're some kind of intellect, but you're little more than a pea brained, Jew hating ninny trying to impress with some old moldy crap about people who are long dead, and inane sillyness about Israelis being terrorists.

That kind of thing is not deserving of polite acceptance!

Take your ludicrous assertions, and stick them in the same place you keep whatever it is that passes for your brain.

Now, I won't be back in this thread. So from here on, you and your buddy yellowwing will be free to post more fatuous absurdity. However remember this... The more you write, the more your stripes show!!!

Out!

Run and hide, Radio, you have not defrended one issue as of yet, you have only insulted the messinger. The message still remains and it is unanswered and undefended.

Let us get this straight, Israel is not the representative of all the Jews in the world, and it does not speak for all the Jews in the world. For the record, many Jews are as embarrassed by Israel's actions and tactics as are we.

If you want to go blindly into the night, so be it, walk away! That may be the only thing that you are good for.

But, when you have something to say, other than to insult me for speaking the truth of the matter, than you can come back and you defend the Socialist Theocracy of Israel, and its politics of Terror it exports!

Remember, without the USA, there would be no Israel! The country would have gone bankrupt many years ago without the handouts it gets from our treasury! In return, they stab us in the back every chance they get! And, they make us a target in this world! We stand by them, and they hide behind our shield, while they plot to kill our troops!

GunnyL
08-15-05, 06:20 PM
Carey, you don't have to defend yourself against Anti-Semitism on this site. That's just one of the tools the Israelis use to discredit anybody who opposes them.
I've echoed your sentiments and my wife is Jewish. So it's not about Judaism, it's about Israel.

GunnyL

Joseph P Carey
08-15-05, 09:24 PM
Originally posted by GunnyL
Carey, you don't have to defend yourself against Anti-Semitism on this site. That's just one of the tools the Israelis use to discredit anybody who opposes them.
I've echoed your sentiments and my wife is Jewish. So it's not about Judaism, it's about Israel.

GunnyL

Thank you Gunny, believe me, there is not anyone on this board less prejudice against anyone then I. The fact that I am not PC enough to sit down and shut up is a big problem with me. If there is a problem I will say so, and I will not hold back one word by being PC!

radio relay
08-16-05, 07:09 AM
Just saying that somebody hasn't kicked your ass don't make it so. I'm not "walking away". Sorry to hear that you're insulted. Didn't realize the truth would hurt so.

I realize that talking to you has the same impact as talking to a wall. You come to the table with nothing new. Just old information and common knowledge. What's to argue with you, or refute? Your position has already been proven wrong many times over by people better than me, or you. That's what I'm *trying* to get into your thick, brainless, liberal skull. The paint is peeling...

For You Information (I spell it out, because you obviuosly are challenged in many ways) when two people start flaming each other on a forum the POLITE thing to do is to take it to email.

You want to continue this? Then send me a private message. I.E. Take it outside, and stop boring everybody else, or shut the f*%k up!!

hrscowboy
08-16-05, 09:44 AM
daaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaamnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn

Joseph P Carey
08-16-05, 12:37 PM
Originally posted by radio relay
Just saying that somebody hasn't kicked your ass don't make it so. I'm not "walking away". Sorry to hear that you're insulted. Didn't realize the truth would hurt so.

I realize that talking to you has the same impact as talking to a wall. You come to the table with nothing new. Just old information and common knowledge. What's to argue with you, or refute? Your position has already been proven wrong many times over by people better than me, or you. That's what I'm *trying* to get into your thick, brainless, liberal skull. The paint is peeling...

For You Information (I spell it out, because you obviuosly are challenged in many ways) when two people start flaming each other on a forum the POLITE thing to do is to take it to email.

You want to continue this? Then send me a private message. I.E. Take it outside, and stop boring everybody else, or shut the f*%k up!!

Radio! What the heck are you smoking boy? I make statements about Israel, and, by your own words, they are truthful statements. If I am wrong than prove it. You say they have all been refuted, but you offered nothing to back you up.

Please show me that they (Israel) did not attack the USS Liberty and rake the decks with their MGs killing US Sailors and US Marines, after an Air and Torpedo attack on a US Flag Ship that was clearly marked with its name and its number, and armed only with Four .50Cal MG that were taken out in the air attack, and did they (Israel) not shoot up the life rafts set in the water the US Sailors hoped to use to evacuate other wounded Sailors and Marines from harms way, and all this after the ship so identified by the Israeli Defense Forces Headquarters as an American Flag Ship.

Please tell me that the leaders of the country of Israel are not, and were not, Terrorists when they indiscriminately bombed, killed, and terrorized innocent civilian populations, including Jews that did not believe the way they did.

Please tell me why the gentleman, and admitted member of the Massad, would say that the Israeli Government had information that would have saved US Marines, and did not transmit such information to the US Government.

Please tell me where the State of Israel is not a Theocracy that discriminates against anyone that is not Jewish to the point of imprisonment, murder, exile, and torture for their individual beliefs, politically and religiously.

Please tell me that the Israeli Tank Commander did not order his driver to grind beneath his tracks an innocent girl from the USA, because she was working to assist Palestinians.

Please tell me that the Israelis did not attack innocent women and children in refugee camps with no warning, and no quarter given.

Please tell me why it is that most of the Israeli Defense Forces will not serve in the West Bank, and in Gaza, because they do not wish to murder innocent human beings at the behest of their government.

Radio, You may have at me any time you wish, I can assure you that it will be the worst day in your life should you try. You have called me lame brained, because I print the truth, and you know no way to fight the truth except to call me prejudice, or a Jew hater, or Liberal, or some other crap like that, but I have noticed that you have printed nothing to the contrary of what I have said, you only desire to kill the messenger, and you refuse to attack the message, as if, by you calling me your mindless names, the message will disappear. Well! The message does not go away!

Are you sure they did not remove your spine when you left the Corps? Not one swear word have I used towards you, and other than claiming that you are not loyal to the USA, but to Israel over and above the USA, I have not gone after you personally one iota. If you wish to publish what you claim are truths to my lies about Israel, please do so, but I do not personally talk to disloyal Americans that take the side of a terrorist country over that of the USA. My personal opinion of you is that you are a brainwashed twit that can not see the truth when it is thrown into his face.

Joseph P Carey
08-16-05, 07:24 PM
Radio, this is an exert from the posting of Phantom Blooper August 12 2005 09:32 AM, titled Israel Charged With Systematic Harassment of U.S. Marines.

This article shows the level of Israel¡¯s friendship towards the USA, and the arguments Israeli operatives made against anyone accusing the Israelis of not being a good friend to the USA! Sounds remarkably similar to your comments about me!

Added, it also puts Arial Sharon at the command of the two very distinct Sabra and Shatila massacres, nothing unusual for the Israelis! After all, they don¡¯t take Media Reporters with them in their Armed Attacks, because everything they do as a government is conducted in the dark, just like terrorists!

It not only shows that the Israelis had information on the Marines being killed, but the US Embassy Bombing that killed 63 Americans, and Israel did not give this information to the Americans as well (Source, Massad Officer, Ostrovsky, Victor and Claire Hoy, By Way of Deception, New York, St. Martin's Press, 1990.)!

Added to that, their opening up of the Marine flanks to attack by moving their units from the area, if I remember correctly you said that the USA put undue hardship on the Israeli Army, but you seem to forget, the Israeli's Attack into Lebanon was illegal, and the USA tried to help, but was quickly put into an untenitable position by the Israelis!

Exerts of this article come from an article written by Donald Neff

No Stranger to the Marines (Israel)

However, on Feb. 2, a unit of three Israeli tanks, led by Israeli Lt. Col. Rafi Landsberg, tried to pass through Marine/Lebanese Army lines at Rayan University Library in south Lebanon. By this time, Landsberg was no stranger to the Marines. Since the beginning of January he had been leading small Israeli units in probes against the Marine lines, although such units would normally have a commander no higher than a sergeant or lieutenant. The suspicion grew that Sharon's troops were deliberately provoking the Marines and Landsberg was there to see that things did not get out of hand. The Israeli tactics were aimed more at forcing a joint U.S.-Israeli strategy than merely probing lines.

In the Feb. 2 incident, the checkpoint was commanded by Marine Capt. Charles Johnson, who firmly refused permission for Landsberg to advance. When two of the Israeli tanks ignored his warning to halt, Johnson leaped on Landsberg's tank with pistol drawn and demanded Landsberg and his tanks withdraw. They did!

Landsberg and the Israeli embassy in Washington tried to laugh off the incident, implying that Johnson was a trigger-happy ¡®John Wayne¡¯ type and that the media were exaggerating a routine event. Landsberg even went so far as to claim that he smelled alcohol on Johnson's breath and that drunkenness must have clouded his reason. Marines were infuriated because Johnson was well known as a teetotaler. Americans flocked to Johnson's side. He received hundreds of letters from school children, former Marines and from Commandant Barrow. It was a losing battle for the Israelis and Landsberg soon dropped from sight.

But the incidents did not stop. These now included "helicopter harassment," by which U.S.-made helicopters with glaring spotlights were flown by the Israelis over Marine positions at night, illuminating Marine outposts and exposing them to potential attack. As reports of these incidents piled up, Gen. Barrow received a letter on March 12 from a U.S. Army major stationed in Lebanon with the United Nations Truce Supervisory Organization (UNTSO). The letter described a systematic pattern of Israeli attacks and provocations against UNTSO troops, including instances in which U.S. officers were singled out for "near-miss" shootings, abuse and detention. That same day two Marine patrols were challenged and cursed by Israeli soldiers.

Two days later Barrow wrote his letter to Secretary of Defense Caspar W. Weinberger, who endorsed it and sent it along to the State Department. High-level meetings were arranged and the incidents abated, perhaps largely because by this time Ariel Sharon had been fired as defense minister. He had been found by an Israeli commission to have had "personal responsibility" for the Sabra and Shatila massacres.

Despite the bad taste left from the clashes with the Israelis, in fact no Marines had been killed in the incidents and their lines had been secure up to the end of winter in 1983. Then Islamic guerrillas, backed by Iran, became active. On the night of April 17, 1983, an unknown sniper fired a shot that went through the trousers of a Marine sentry but did not harm him. For the first time, the Marines returned fire.

The next day, the U.S. Embassy in Beirut was blown up by a massive bomb, with the loss of 63 lives. Among the 17 Americans killed were CIA Mideast specialists, including Robert C. Ames, the agency's top Middle East expert. Disaffected former Israeli Mossad case officer Victor Ostrovsky later claimed that Israel had advance information about the bombing plan but had decided not to inform the United States, a claim denied by Israel. The Iranian-backed Islamic Jihad claimed responsibility. Veteran correspondent John Cooley considered the attack "the day [Iranian leader Ayatollah] Khomeini's offensive against America in Lebanon began in earnest."

Still, it was not until four months later, on Aug. 28, that Marines came under direct fire by rocket-propelled grenades and automatic weapons at International Airport. They returned fire with M-16 rifles and M-60 machine guns. The firefight resumed the next day with Marines firing 155mm artillery, 81mm mortars and rockets from Cobra helicopter gunships against Shi'i Muslim positions. Two Marines were killed and 14 wounded in the exchange, the first casualties in actual combat since the Marines had landed the previous year.

From this time on, the combat involvement of the Marines grew. Their actions were generally seen as siding with Israel against Muslims, slowly changing the status of the Marines as neutral peacekeepers to opponents of the Muslims. Israel could hardly have wished for more. The polarization meant that increasingly the conflict was being perceived in terms of the U.S., Israel and Lebanon's Christians against Iran, Islam and Lebanon's Shi'i Muslims.

Accelerating the Conflict

Israel accelerated the building conflict on Sept. 3, 1993 by unilaterally withdrawing its troops southward, leaving the Marines exposed behind their thin lines at the airport. The United States had asked the Israeli government to delay its withdrawal until the Marines could be replaced by units of the Lebanese army, but Israel refused. The result was as feared. Heavy fighting immediately broke out between the Christian Lebanese Forces and the pro-Syrian Druze units, both seeking to occupy positions evacuated by Israel, while the Marines were left in the crossfire. On Sept. 5, two Marines were killed and three wounded as fighting escalated between Christian and Muslim militias.

Nagalfar
08-16-05, 07:55 PM
It would seem to me, anytime anyone, friend of enemy makes you aware of a weakness, and they dont kill you, 2 things should happen, first tell them Thank You for exposing your weakness, and second, be smart enough to forever learn what might have got you killed. You cant walk a dog tail first, blaming anyone other than Washington for the loss of our brothers is off the map.. the simple fact remains, we should have never been there unless we were ready to fight the very second we were so much as even provoked, to respond with anything less than a "mad minute" would be a invite to those who seek to kill Americans. The problem is not Israel, or the IDF, it was Washington who made the choice for us to be there, it was Washington who didn't have proper Intel, or even a planned response planned to the "what if's happen".

Blaming Israel is like sticking you head in the sand, Israel can't order our brothers into a combat zone or any other zone, that happens in Washington. It dont matter what Israel knew or didn't know, that is OUR job to take care of OUR own, Like it or not, Israel at the moment is our only friend in the Sandbox at the moment.. and like they say down town "a butt is is butt when your in a rut", sometimes you just have to take what you get and be happy with that.. because its far better than NOTHING.

NOW.. dont make me pull this car over!!

Joseph P Carey
08-16-05, 08:09 PM
Nagalfar,

The fact remains that Israel has the best politicians that money can buy, and they are all in the US Congress! Tell me they can't deploy US Troops!

The fact is that Israel has claimed the spokesmanship as the leader of the Jewish People of the world, and many American Jews I know are not of that same opinion, but our US Congressmen are so worried of the Jewish vote that they do not wish to be deemed not PC. They are of the opinion that Israel is the voice of the Jew, and the dollars in their pockets from such organizations supporting the Israelis point of view can not but reinforce that belief.

Again, tell me they can not put US Troops into the field!

greensideout
08-16-05, 09:05 PM
Carey, you ain't got a clue. Your diatribe is based on a secular view of history and present day activity. Do you think you know what Israel is and what Israel represents in the conflict of the world? I don't think you do. You are begining to iritate me.

Joseph P Carey
08-16-05, 09:32 PM
Originally posted by greensideout
Carey, you ain't got a clue. Your diatribe is based on a secular view of history and present day activity. Do you think you know what Israel is and what Israel represents in the conflict of the world? I don't think you do. You are begining to iritate me.

Enlighten me as to what I have said that is wrong, or a lie about Israel? Now, who hasn't a clue?