6 Marine Snipers Are Slain In Ambush In Western Iraq

[marinefamily5]

6 Marine Snipers Are Slain In Ambush In Western Iraq; Another Dies In Suicide Attack <br />
<br />
By Dexter Filkins <br />
<br />
BAGHDAD, Iraq, Aug. 2 - Six Marine snipers moving on foot near a western Iraqi city were...

[RLeon]

OOh this ****es me off...6 snipers getting wiped put...Marine Corps Snipers getting wiped out...that's not supposed to happen. how the heck do a bunch of sh*tty terrorist manage to ambush Marine Snipers?!!. I refuse to believe they were taken out in a gunfight, they had to be ambushed by inderect fire or bombing. This also smells like treachery, are we putiing too much trust into the wrong people over there. Is this incident a result of us being too "nice" overthere for the sake of PC? uuhg :mad:

[GunnyL]

This Sh*t happens when you have a President, Government and senior Military Leadership who lack the Cahones to fight this war the way it ought to be faught.
The only way to effectively deal with these terrorists and their sympathizers is to hunt them down and kill them. You are not going to achieve it by giving them hugs and sympathy or by negotiation. You are not going to win their hearts and minds. You are not going to change them or rehabilitate them by capturing them and putting them in prison.
I'm all for the elimination of Sadam Hussein and the establishment of Democracy in the Middle East but not at the unneeded expense of U.S. Mailitary lives. If we're going to do it, we need to do it right. I'm sick to my stomach with this Administration and all of their talk with no action. Don't get us in a fight if you lack the intestinal fortitude to go out and win it!

Damn, I needed to get that off my chest!

GunnyL

[Osotogary]

RLeon,
You have mirrored my thoughts exactly. I am by no means even a novice when it comes to military matters but, jeez Louise, something seems definitely not on the up and up. Now I don't know what the landscape looked like but if it is as barren as some of the photos that I have seen any sort of movement at ground level has a good chance of being seen... especially if that movement is "expected".
I've never heard of this kind of thing happpening to so many Marine Snipers at once in any conflict that the Marine Corps has ever been involved. I don't even want to think the words complacent or careless. What a dammmm shame.
GunnyL-
There is not a damnnn thing that I could say that will top what you just got off your chest except that what you have said won't get off your chest or my chest for a while to come. In this conflict... actions have been speaking louder than words. Words just won't cut it any more.
May the fallen rest in immortal peace.

[yellowwing]

how the heck do a bunch of sh*tty terrorist manage to ambush Marine Snipers?!!
I hope they never publish the details. No need to give the Al Jazeera readers a how to manual.

God rest these Marines and give comfort to their Bro's and their families.

[jaysmyhero]

my brother in law is in Iraq right now as a Seabee in Convoy protection and they were right behind those snipers... its true this doesnt need to get out.

... Silent Souls leave .308 holes.

[RLeon]

I know this is a real war with bombs, bullets and bad guys...so Marines will die, but damn, when 6 Marine Snipers get killed in one hit there's something wrong..were was their support? why were just 6 roaming an area with high concentratring of terrorist?..damn this is frustrating. 14 Marines in an amtrac die from a roadside bomb..HOW ABOUT STAYING AWAY FROM ROADS AND RIDING THROUGH PEOPLES YARDS,HOUSES ETC.

[hrscowboy]

how in the hell did six marine snipers get all bunched up like that in one place is what i want to know? Never in Nam did we have snipers that teamed up in one place that i recall...

[USMCgrunt0331]

Unbelievable is all I can think of. Something to think about--maybe stuff like this is happening now b/c of some of the slacking on training, now that a lot of people are whining cause our training in bootcamp and schools is to tough or harsh or cruel and all that crap. This isn't the only incident like this-Look at the Seals who were wiped out in Afghanistan last month, and there are other examples. Heck, for the first time in history a Seal was captured, the Seal who fell off a helicopter a long time back and was dragged away. And aren't they still missing one in Afghanistan? I wish I knew more about what really happened on that Sniper ambush. Is all this b/c of improper training, complacency, uncontrollable circumstances? Wish I knew. The more we sweat in peace, the less we bleed in war. Semper Fi Marines.

[marinefamily5]

I'm in a yahoo group and one of the fathers that his son is over there siad

"Heard from my son a little while ago. The explosion occurred down the
road from them. They saw the explosion from Camp Gannon. India Co.
was not there at the time but some of India Co. are there now cleaning
up the town of insurgents. The snipers were caught because they were
doing something they were not suppose to be doing but he wouldn't tell
me what if it wasn't on the news. I didn't pursue it .He didn't think
the story about the insurgents parading the helmets and flak jackets
of the marines was true. Just wanted to let you know I heard from him."

But if I hear anything else I will be sure to post it.

[hrscowboy]

hathcock is turning over in his grave on this one gentlemen

[jaysmyhero]

you guys know that these snipers were a recon element.. they are sent out even ahead of bttln recon. to take out mortars and artillery moving house to house. they probably got hit moving to the next house. and theres 2 3 man teams not 3 2 man teams so its not that unbeliveable they got hit.

[JAMarine]

Rest Easy Marines.

[USMC-FO]

This entire F..ing mess starts at the very top of the chain of command....Our 'leadership'--use the word with great circumspection--is trying to build a nation out of piles of sh*t and wasting the lives of our best young men in the process. Is it poor training, poor leadership, partly but it is largely **** poor planning at the very top.... They try an minimize casualties and create more because of innsufficient back up....This was a reserve unit and no one--in our government-- seems to ask why reserve units are put in this sort of hostile enviornmment. Here is one solution,perhaps, stand back and level every f**kin thing higher than 3 feet in Western Iraq. Kill every thing that moves... Arty, bombs, MOABS and the like. But no....the muslims won't like us our weenies will plead..... So we allow young Marines to die for nothing rather than fight this war to destroy our enemies totally...

This is just nuts !!

[Nagalfar]

GunnyL, and USMC-FO I agree completley.. I think you both are right on target..

[Osotogary]

Just heard on the television yesterday evening that an Officer (not a Marine) in charge of leading convoys (this was on the television) mentioned that there is a new mindset that is taking place. She...

[Grunt2u]

What can we do? I know, I know ,( Regroup, and then the next time ,move in from the west) give me a break. Lets get our brothers out of there. May the Lord be with them.

[mrbsox]

Originally posted by Osotogary
I suppose that if I had been a grunt I might have much more input that could be validated but I don't think you need to be a grunt to figure out that something is amiss. As much as I dislike war, if you're going to fight it - fight to win. Do not fight to placate.
I suppose that I will po'd about this for quite some time. Damnnnn.

"You cannot qualify war in harsher terms than I will. War is cruelty, and you cannot refine it; and those who brought war into our country deserve all the curses and maledictions a people can pour out. I know I had no hand in making this war, and I know I will make more sacrifices to-day than any of you to secure peace."

'General William Tecumseh Sherman'

Also quoted to say;
War is Hell, and the more hellish it is, the quicker it's over'

[hrscowboy]

we have a government that wants to pussyfoot around and not get a reputation of being a bunch of murdering thugs. well enough is enough if truman can bomb the hell out of the japs we can do the same damn thing and dont give a rats behind what other countrys think. I have always said we needed to level everything in site and start over and quit worrying what the damn rag heads think..

[marinefamily5]

I completely agree with you on that one HRSCOWBOY

[outlaw3179]

I concur

[hrscowboy]

I say pull our troops and nuke the **** out of that place, who cares who dies our troops will be safe and those muslims will see there maker alot faster than they wanted too...

[marinefamily5]

You know something HRSCOWBOY i have said that from the start. I have said to nuke the f*cker and turn it into one be sand box

[hrscowboy]

Well we have a no nuts president that listens to everyone else except for the true combat vets. Show me 1 general thats in office now that was actually in the heat of battle...

[Joseph P Carey]

Originally posted by hrscowboy
Well we have a no nuts president that listens to everyone else except for the true combat vets. Show me 1 general thats in office now that was actually in the heat of battle...

Let me remind you of this, it could have been President John F Kerry! It is true that our troops would have been home by now, but the terrorist would have had all of that Oil Money to devote to going after a President that could not make up his mind and stick with it. Things are not perfect, but it could be a lot worst, it could be here, not there!

May I remind people that we should have had the support in this war of the South Vietnamese Army, but there is no South Vietnam today, due to people like Kerry, and that old KKK member, Byrd, People like Case and Church, and the fickled nonsense of President Johnson, who took his policy from the NY Times Editorial Page, where he should have pursued and destroyed the North Vietnamese Army after Tet 68, he vacillated wondering what the Anti war groups would do to him. The NVA lost 40,000 troops in that fight, and they ran to the borders for protection, because they knew the USA did not have the resolve in the White House to follow them into their sanctuary. The war should have been over at that point.

Let me remind you of the fact that the USA did not 'go to bat' for an ally, and we turned our back on the South Vietnamese People because of Case-Church.

August 1973; US Congress passes the Case – Church Amendment which forbids, US naval forces from sailing on the seas surrounding, US ground forces from operating on the land of, and US air forces from flying in the air over, South Vietnam, North Vietnam, Cambodia and Laos. Case – Church was in effect an unconditional guarantee, by the US Congress to the North Vietnamese communists, that the United States would no longer oppose their efforts to conquer South Vietnam. This Act effectively nullified the Paris Peace Agreements. The communists had won on the floors of the US Congress, what they could not possibly have won on the battlefields of Vietnam.

March 1975; North Vietnam mounts full scale invasion. Seventeen North Vietnamese conventional divisions (more divisions than the US Army has had on active duty since WW II) were formed into four conventional army corps (This was the entire North Vietnamese army. Because the US Congress had unconditionally guaranteed no military action against North Vietnam, there was no need for them to keep forces in reserve to protect their home bases, flanks or supply lines), and launched a wholly conventional cross-border, frontal-attack. This attack was spearheaded by 700 Russian tanks, that were burning Soviet fuel and firing Soviet ammunition. Then, using the age old tactics of mass and maneuver, they defeated the South Vietnamese army in detail.

We should have learned our lesson. Our enemies are not to be trusted, they are our enemy for a reason!

[tophor]

That is a crying shame about those snipers. They are the elite of our beloved Corps. The truth is, decisions made by higher ups got them killed.

[Joseph P Carey]

Originally posted by tophor
That is a crying shame about those snipers. They are the elite of our beloved Corps. The truth is, decisions made by higher ups got them killed.

Let us call it where it lays, The CO of the unit, and Intelligence Chief, decided where they were to be deployed, not the Secr of Defense, and if I remember things correctly, it was the CO that assigned the means of transportation, least wise the area to go go through to the positions, not the President. These men being ambushed and killed are the responsibility of the CO, not anyone else! Not anyone higher! He did not do his homework, and men died because of it!

[GunnyL]

The problem with your statement Carey is that the President, SecDef and Congress have restricted our Forces on the Ground to fighting with one hand tied behind their backs and a blind fold over their shooting eye.
The CO has direct responsibility for decisions he makes under his AOR but the way this war has been run, he must clear his decisions with someone in Washington or Tampa Florida in order to do anything.
Obviously the United States didn't learn anything from Vietnam. And if you don't learn from History, then History is bound to repeat itself.
In Sadr City, we tracked down Muqtar al Sadr and his Militia, had them cornered and firing at us from a Mosque. We should have blown that Mosque up with everybody inside of it. But the President stepped in and stopped the Marines from Killing him because of Politics. When he started it up again, we had him cornered in Najaf and again the U.S. Government stepped in and stopped the Marines from Killing him.
In April of 2004 the Marines and Army units entered Fallujah, 3/4 of the way into the city, the President and his moronic minstrels in Washington halted the offensive and pulled out of the city. He let the Insurgency elements take control again and flourish. We didn't enter Fallujah again until November, 2004.
The President needs to issue the order to end the insurgency by any means deemed necessary by commanders on the ground. He and the Congress then need to step back and let them end the insurgency.
If we want to win this war in Iraq, we need to start fighting a Guerilla war ourselves and we need to be ruthless.
When we have radical Islamist elements identified, we need to go in and kill them. When some American get's killed and there are Iraqi's dancing in the streets, we need to go in and kill them. When Radical Islamic Cleric is preaching death to Americans, we need to go in and kill him. When they're broadcasting "Death to American Troops" over the Mosque loudspeaker, we need to blow that Mosque up.
Col. David Hunt USArmy Ret. wrote a book titled "They Just don't get it" and it is damn good reading. He identifies problems and then suggests solutions. Other than he doesn't seem to know the history of Marine Corps Force Reconnaisance, he is dead on in a lot of his assessments. The book is straight forward and uses language that any Marine would appreciate. I highly recommend that all here read it.
The bottom line is that if Bush wants to send our Marines and Soldiers into Iraq, then he needs to have the Balls to make tough decisions and let the Marine and Army Commanders on the ground adapt to the situation and fight to win.
This war is not against all Muslims, there are over a Billion Muslims in the world. There is a guy who works with me who is a devout Muslim, was born and raised in the Middle East but is now an American Citizen. He routinely echo's all of the things I've written above, not just agrees with, but initiates. You need to route out the Radical Islamists and kill them. The Egyptian Governement found the guy that planned the bombings at the Red Sea Resorts last week. They shot and killed him and his wife. I read about it in an Egyptian paper but didn't hear a word about it in the U.S. "News" services.
If we're going to stay in Iraq, we need to Reorganize and start fighting this war the right way. Losing is not an option but the unnecessary loss of American lives isn't an option either.

GunnyL

[Nagalfar]

I think we have learned a lot from Korea and Vietnam, but we dont seem to remember what we learned, and now we are doing the very same thing again, we are trading men for political polls, it is my opinion that mens lives have far less value than political polls in most all of Washingtons eyes, I have yet to see them do anything but what is right when fighting a war, hell we hear from Al Jeezra more than we do our OWN govt. or CIC in a time of war, and when we do hear from OUR govt. reps. more often than not is someone slamming our troops.. we need to get politicans the hell out of making battlefield decisions, that is what is kicking our arse, its damn sure not the rags.. we need a law that clearly states, if we as a nation want or need to go to war, written objectives will be given to the Pentagon, and the MILITARY has ALL, total, complete and final say on HOW it is done, and if you cant handle the pressure, DONT GO TO WAR.. this is insane, we are trading the finest for people like politicans, I wouldnt trade one single Marnie for all of Washington D.C... Lets face it, Rumsfeld couldnt find his own arse with both hands a flashlight, map and 2 congressmen to help(maybe a gay congressman could help)... I say do it right and take the leash off, or bring them home now, one more life traded for political polls is BULLSH*T.. and that is whats happening.. what does Rumsfeld or Bush know about running a war? isnt that why we have a chain of command with Generals to command the troops and the battlefield? not some former N.G. Pilot and his buddy?... politics is what cost us Korea and Vietnam, and now it is costing us the sandbox..

[OLE SARG]

I think in the future if we corner one of these important towelheads, we kill the SOB and then notify the higher-ups what we've done. At least the SOB will be DEAD!!!!!!

Here again, I wonder about our government and its reasoning in a lot of this crap. If we are going to fight, fight to WIN and not to politically appease somebody or our enemy.

Most of the time, I think our news media has lost its mind and is working for the enemy. All they seem to report are the negatives and never the positives.

My $.02 worth

SEMPER FI,
OLE SARG

[hrscowboy]

I agree with both of you Nagalfar and GunnyL.. Joe you cant put the blame on the C.O. if his hands are tied everytime he turns around brother and you know that. Buttom line we have an administration...

[Joseph P Carey]

Oh! I see! The Marines don't take orders from the civilian authority any longer! Someone should have sent me a memo on that!

My Grandfather, who was in the Army in WWI, was upset because they could not go into Germany and 'finish the job!' My Dad, who was a Marine in the South Pacific during WWII told me that many a time they had to use a brief Naval Gunfire Barrage on some of the Islands, because of a soap company owning the coconut trees on the islands, and they were charging the US Government $75.00 a tree destroyed by American Troops. And, during that same time period, I am sure that some of the Marines that were surrendered by their Army Commander in the Philippines still wanted to fight on, but they followed orders. My Uncle who died with the Marines in Korea, wrote to my Dad telling him how upset he was that they could not pursue the North Koreans into Manchuria, he was killed later in that war. MY Brother and I were both severely wounded in Vietnam, and our contention was to go forward into North Vietnam and get the enemy and end the war! When the Marines in Lebanon were killed, they didn't land a Division, and end that conflict in its total for what was done to our Marines on a UN Peace Mission. And, it goes on and on for the last 100 years, right through to the Gulf War and the Wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. We do not do what we are capable of doing! That is what Marine Corps discipline is all about! We kill when we are ordered to do so, and we stop when we are ordered to do so!

The number of deaths in Iraq comes no where near the number we lost in other wars and conflicts for over two years of continuous contact with an enemy! What makes this one so different from before!

We all swore an oath to the Constitution of the United States of America, and that means the civilian authority, even if it means not getting 'pay back' in Lebanon, or having to turn our back on an ally that fought with us for eleven years of warfare in South Vietnam because of Case-Church, or not going after the Israelis for shooting up the USS Liberty in 67, or not going in after the North Koreans for taking the USS Pueblo in International waters in 68, or not pursuing the Iraqi Army into Iraq in the Kuwaiti Campaign, and not going into Manchuria in the Korean Campaign. All we have to do is fight in the wars, and be the arm of the civilian authority. That is our mission! Like it, or not, that is what we signed on for!

We are the instrument of government of the people, and we do our job whether we like it or not! That is what the Marines are all about!

No one is denying that we could not have turned Iraq into a glass covered parking spot on the earth for the next hundred years, but that was not our mission. Our mission was to depose a government, and we did that better than anyone else in the world could have done that! Now, our mission is to turn Iraq into a Democracy in the Middle East that can defend itself, and we are doing that!

We all have the right to gripe over the things that government has done for all too many reasons, but it is our government, and that is who we are sworn to obey, right or wrong!

[Joseph P Carey]

I sure as hell can blame the CO of that unit of Snipers! He had the responsibility for his man, and it was his responsibility to insure that his units were able to reach their assigned destination to...

[GySgtRet]

hrscowboy,


"Well we have a no nuts president that listens to everyone else except for the true combat vets. Show me 1 general thats in office now that was actually in the heat of battle..."

Yes there is...!!! General Peter Pace....!!!! He will soon take the oath as the first Marine to hold the "JOINT CHEIF OF STAFF POSITION" He has the nuts as you put it I guarantee it.

Semper Fidelis

[Joseph P Carey]

I really think you guys are reading too much of the NY Times when it comes to Iraq, and you are under the assumption that we are not winning, that perception is wrong. It’s out of place in the...

[GySgtRet]

Personally. I think that the current Commander-in-Chief is doing an excellent job inspite of his lack of military service. Even though he had served in the Air National Guard. Joeseph P. Carey, I agrre with the numbers that you have presented except you have forgotten a couple. If you add up from the first OIF the numbers are still very minute.

Semper Fidelis

[Joseph P Carey]

Thanks Gunny, I too think he is doing a good job!

He has done more in such a short time that has not been accomplished in many a year. I may not agree with all the things that he does, or he has done, but he does what he says he will do, and that is all right with me!

At the very least, we do not have to guess what our Country's policy is. He has said it, and he has stood behind it! The President has done everything he said he will do, and he did so against some of the greatest opposition that any President has withstood. I can not see where he can be called a 'No-balls' President by anyone that has lived through President Carter and President Clinton!

That is my opinion!

[firefox2]

leadership leadership where did it go the old marine way nam 1965-1966, no sniper teams was taken out they had protection and cover of darkness, no moving around in open daylite activity, who the hell sent them out like that, their leadership

[BigCat1]

Speaking as a former sniper myself, I can't imagine what freakin' idiot put those teams in such a position that something like this would happen. Yes...there are problems at the top as has been stated in this forum and yes, that all filters down to the grunt on the ground. That being said, what about the unit commander who put those men in that position? Where does his responsibility lay? How could he have been duped into such a tragic and completely avoidable situation? Sorry gang...but the blood of those Marines is on his hands

[Joseph P Carey]

As much as my heart wants to believe that this would have saved those Marines, it was still 14 personnel crammed into one target, and it was still two teams of Snipers taken in daylight.

The CO may cry about not having enough men, as an after thought, but it still does not answer the question of how these men were not protected very well. As sad as it sounds, I believe it to be a 'bad call' on his part that killed those men, and now he is running interference. The thing is, he could not protect the Marines he had!

Even if there was an escape from the turned-over vehicle, with 14 men and thier equipment inside, and the vehicle on its back, those men were doomed, and as for the Snipers... Daylight, in a low cover area is not the time to send the teams out!

I still think this CO needs to answer some questions!

The Story:
Unit had asked for more Marines
By Kimberly Johnson, Special for USA TODAY
HADITHAH, Iraq — A Marine regiment that took heavy casualties last week in western Iraq — including 19 killed from a Reserve unit headquartered in Ohio — had repeatedly asked for about 1,000 more troops. Those requests were not granted.
Regimental Combat Team 2 began asking for additional troops to police its volatile 24,000-square-mile territory before most of its Marines deployed in February, said operations officer Lt. Col. Christopher Starling, 39, of Jacksonville, N.C.

Starling said the unit could "optimally" use one more battalion, about 1,000 troops, to take some of the pressure off the Reserve unit, which is spearheading an offensive in the region. "With a fourth battalion, I wouldn't have to play pick-up ball," Starling said.

The requests for additional forces were passed to higher headquarters in nearby Ramadi; it is unclear whether they went beyond that level, Starling said.

The casualties in the area don't "appear to be related to the troop level situation," said Air Force Brig. Gen. Donald Alston, a U.S. military spokesman. He said he wasn't aware of the requests for additional forces.

But the issue highlights whether there are enough U.S. and Iraqi troops to battle a deeply rooted insurgency.

Thomas Hammes, a retired Marine colonel who has written a book on anti-insurgency tactics, said ground commanders have been saying that they don't have enough troops to cover the country, despite the Pentagon's insistence that they do.

Pentagon spokesman Larry DiRita said Sunday, "I don't doubt every colonel wishes he had more in his area, but the decisions about how troops are (deployed) are made by the commanders above them."

Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld has said that he would authorize an increase in the number of troops in Iraq if top commanders asked for them. The Pentagon says that so far they haven't.

Alston said it was "not uncommon for commanders in the field to say 'I need more troops.' "

One of the regiment's three battalions, a Reserve unit headquartered in Ohio, was particularly hard hit last week. A massive roadside bomb killed 14 Marines traveling in an armored vehicle Wednesday, two days after five Marines from the battalion were killed by small-arms fire.

The difficulty in pacifying Iraq's desolate western region shows the challenges of fighting an insurgency in which fighters who have been pushed out of one town or city regroup elsewhere.
Additional forces might allow U.S. and Iraqi government forces to maintain security after chasing insurgents out of their hide-outs. "Presence leads to security, which leads to stability," Starling said.

U.S. policy is to have Iraqi security forces take on more responsibility so that U.S. forces can begin withdrawing. "The honest, simple answer is we need more resources," said Lt. Col. Lionel Urquhart, commander of the Reserve battalion. "Yes, we need more forces, but what we need is more Iraqi forces."
A number of Marine units are tied down in Fallujah and Ramadi, strategic cities in the Sunni Arab heartland. The Iraqi government wants Sunnis to vote in a constitutional referendum scheduled for October.

"With the referendum and election coming up, it is important to create as much security and stability in those populated areas to enable the people to get out and vote," said Col. Stephen Davis, commander of Regimental Combat Team 2.

Contributing: Andrea Stone in McLean, Va.

[yellowwing]

As far as the war I think he is doing okay. GWB has the toughest job in the world, no doubt. Its easy to lead when everything is coffee and roses.

Now that public opinion is grumbling, character comes to the forefront. Staying the course when the majority thinks you are f*cked is one of our beloved "leadership challenges". Calling the majority unpatriotic or traitors only goes so far.

[jmh2137]

I find it hard to believe that six snipers were wiped out at once. I was in Saudi and Iraq the first time and never did our snipers ever bunch up like that.

In addition, if George Bush senior had let the Marines do their job right the first time and had taken Saddam out the first time, then we wouldn't being going through this mess 15 years later. Bush needs to stop worrying about the liberals and let the Generals run the show over there!

[Nagalfar]

I would like to point one exception to the President doing a good job in the sandbox, that is NOT his job, it is the job of our Generals to do that very job, it is the job of the office of the President to state what objectives the military is achieve and the let the Generals do what they have spent a lifetime preparing learning and training for, our CIC, weather I agree with him or not does not matter and is not my point, he is not a career officer, he is a career politican with a short time in the Air Guard, this is not the man I would want looking out for my brothers or deciding what they are to do on a battlefield by a almost daily basis.. as we all know orders are orders, and we follow them when given (unless you are in a Army transport company, then you can have a mutiny because a battlefield is to dangerous a place to go! sorry couldnt resist lol).. but he should not be overseeing and approving what happens on the battlefield based on his poll numbers, thats why Korea and Vietnam ended the way they did.. there is NO DOUBT we can wind this up in a matter of a month or 2 if the white house would take the leash OFF.. anyone here think we cant? and to do anything other than commit to total war when we are at war is doing nothing more than getting our borthers and sisters KIA'd or WIA'd for the sake of political polls.. I am not willing to stand by and be silent when that happens, over 112,000 Americans were lost in Korea and Vietnam, I think that is more than enough to learn our lesson on what not to do.

[Joseph P Carey]

Originally posted by jmh2137
I find it hard to believe that six snipers were wiped out at once. I was in Saudi and Iraq the first time and never did our snipers ever bunch up like that.

In addition, if George Bush senior had let the Marines do their job right the first time and had taken Saddam out the first time, then we wouldn't being going through this mess 15 years later. Bush needs to stop worrying about the liberals and let the Generals run the show over there!

The big difference that we are even still there now, as opposed to before, is spelt in two letters, UN! This is not a UN Mission, or we still would have been climbing into Baghdad at this time with all the Truce's that would have been allowed for the Iraqi Army to bring its resistance together by the UN!

We do not know all the reasons why President Bush (41) stopped during the 1st Gulf War, but I can only imagine that we would have been an occupation force there for all these years as the UN hammered out a socialist anti-USA government in Iraq. Perhaps, it was the overall cost of the operation, and the thought of having our balls cut off by the UN again that stopped us the first time. Who knows?

I agree with you in principle! But, I thought that we should have just re-armed the Iraqi Prisoners that we had, the very ones that Saddam put in the lines to be fodder for our troops, and we should have gave them air support and let them march back into Iraq, and let them see the Republican Guard go down to their power of armed force, maybe then we would be having an easy time of it, but I doubt that too!

It seems to me that the only way someone can be accused of making a mistake, or even making errors, is to be doing something at all! Maybe, we are just too used to Presidents that did nothing while the world fell in on us and our system of democracy. Again, who Knows? Going to war we have done before, but in the last 60 years, we have not gone to war to win our point, or to foster our plan of the world. Our last couple of wars were fought to remain the status quo, and that is still the mind set in Congress!

I am not a religious man, but thank God for President Bush (43)! He tells us what he is going to do, and he tells us it will take years to accomplish, and he does it, and everybody else wants it done in three weeks or they have the opinion we are losing!

We are not losing!

[hrscowboy]

buttom line:: Open the gates of hell and nuke the hell out of that country and to hell with the UN

[marinefamily5]

d*mn hrscowboy.............you and i think alike............maybe we need to be in office.............LOL!!!!!!!!!!!