Either Fight The War Or Come Home [Archive] - Marine Corps

thedrifter

06-14-05, 07:59 AM

EITHER FIGHT THE WAR OR COME HOME

According to Gallup, 59 percent of Americans say it’s time to start bringing the troops home.

I think I’m one of them.

I think if we’re going to hamstring our troops in Iraq, and doom them to the daily grind of improvised explosive devices, we might as well bring them home.

They’d be more usefully deployed along our border with Mexico.

See, it’s the “go big or go home” principle, a variation on the “is you is or is you ain’t” theme. If you’re going to fight a war, fight a war. If you’re not, let’s get back in the barracks.

Doing anything else wastes the lives of your troops, fails to achieve your objective and gives fuel to your enemies. The difference between this and Vietnam is it was a lot more humid in Vietnam.

Don’t get me wrong. I support the war. I think we were right to go in. I believed that then and I believe that now. I think our troops walk on water and I support them completely. I think changing the venue in the war on terror from our country to theirs was a great idea.

Again, I support the war.

But we’re not fighting a war. General Westmoreland and Secretary MacNamara have got us “winning hearts and minds” and that is working just as well as it ever has. Our troops are issued five pound of bullets and 100 pounds of rules of engagement and out they’re sent with all the world watching and waiting to fry them at the first misstep.

We lose an average of two American GIs a day over there and still we continue to “fight” this war with one arm tied behind our back.

The bad guys have pretty much figured out how to kill us at will and still we leave our B52s thousands of miles away tied down to the tarmac. For fear of offending the sensitivities of people who hate us, we send Americans out every day to die when they don’t have to.

And don’t whine about how difficult it is to fight an insurgency. Insurgents are an ancient part of warfare, and countless militaries through history have faced them. Mostly they’ve faced them successfully. Two who haven’t are George III and Lyndon Johnson.

And maybe George W. Bush.

To fight an insurgency, you’ve got to destroy the community and people who are sheltering them. It’s that simple. There’s no other way. There’s no other way. You can’t pass out enough Hershey bars to turn people against them.

When you face bad guys in battle, you’ve got to be a bigger bad guy. The fellow with the biggest fist is the one left standing.

And right now we’ve outlawed our bigger fist.

When one of our convoys is bombed, bomb the neighborhood where it occurred. Yes, “innocent” people might be killed. That’s what happens in war. But after that happens a few times, the neighborhoods will stop tolerating the insurgents and they will lose their base of operation.

When you fear the B52s more than you fear the jihad boys the balance of power is going to shift.

To win a war, you have to fight it.

It’s really not about building schools and clinics, it’s about killing your enemy.

And if we’re not willing to do that, then it is immoral to tread water over there at the cost of two Americans a day. We can ask our servicemembers to die for a cause, but we can’t ask them to die because we can’t think of a better idea.

And we can’t be surprised if recruitment numbers fall off. We can’t be surprised if young men and women look at that mess over there and decide to take a pass – not at the prospect of death, but at the prospect of pointless death. If there’s a fight, Americans will line up to have a piece of it. But if it’s a dog and pony show, Americans would just as soon take a pass.

Instead of unleashing the military and taking the fight to the enemy, we seem more enthusiastic about finding some nitpicky reason to tear our soldiers down. Who would want to sign up when the press and Congress seem intent on ripping our troops apart for the slightest infraction?

The problem is that we are dumb and naive.

We seem to be unaware of what every single war throughout history has been about. We overlook what war means and what it entails. We turn a blind eye to the realities of armed conflict and the price of victory. That’s the dumb part.

The naïve part is the belief that the rules have changed, that there is a new day and the old motives and realities no longer apply. We think that an invading army will ever be seen as anything other than an invading army.

And we misjudge what it takes to defeat an enemy and bring him into subjugation.

And if that’s the case, we don’t belong there. It’s ok to ask America’s military men and women to fight and die, but it’s not ok just to ask them to die. If you’re in the fight, fight.

If you’re not, come home.

We fight wars to win them. If nobody in the administration or at the War College can figure out how to win this, then bring the boys home.

And put them along the Mexican border.

- by Bob Lonsberry

Ellie

sgt.r.n.davis

06-14-05, 08:07 AM

YEAH! I AGREE 100%. LET THEM OFF THE LEASH TO FIGHT OR BRING THEM HOME VERY SOON:emark:

Namvet67

06-14-05, 08:46 AM

I am in complete agreement as well. This has Vietnam written all over it! Turn them loose and get the job done or pack it up and come on home. gbudd

yellowwing

06-14-05, 09:34 AM

WTF is up with Jordan? Their King was born in Amman but raised in the US and Great Britain (http://webclub.kcom.ne.jp/mc/jor-emb/monarchy.html). He even attended RMA Sandhurst.

They could score some major points and concessions if he would send a Jordanian brigade to at least help clear western Iraq.

GySgtRet

06-14-05, 09:39 AM

The Marine Corps is not an occupying force and should be taken out to do the war on terrorism in other parts of the world.

Just me 2c worth.

Semper Fidelis

Osotogary

06-14-05, 09:46 AM

It's either .."sh*t or get off the pot" as far as I am concerned.

I'm starting to realize that I am a total idiot when it comes to understanding the complexities of the "War on Terrorism" because, according to some, it isn't about terror at all but more about petrol economics and the the control of petrol resources- eg., who controls the source.
Insurgents? Religious war? I don't know about all that. I believe it's just a "turf war" put on by some very slick thugs and henchmen who are using religion, cultural differences and nationalism as a guise for their own power plays. Keeping this in mind, I just don't like seeing Americans lose their life for
someone elses "power play". I don't like to see Americans lose their life period. Anybody or organization that thinks otherwise should be taken to task. If, however, Americans do have to lose their life I would wish for them to do so in a combined and total winning effort protecting our shores or our way of life. To die any other way would be folly.

I need a beer...or a soda. :)

hrscowboy

06-14-05, 10:22 AM

I totally agree with you men and women on this one, lets either flatten the villages, make it so they have no place to hide, its either that or lets come home..

Fox 2/23

06-14-05, 02:49 PM

There is noone more patriotic than an 18 year old E-1 in my opinion but it is the politicians who tell them where to go and what to do when they get there. Politicians and political appointees often have no idea what they are doing. When things get crappy they can quit, not so the E-1.

I tell you something that bugs me friends. Every day I am bombarded by chickenhawk talk show hosts on my one and only AM radio station. I heard Sean Hannity dismiss Gen. Anthony Zinni as a "left winger". Can you believe that? I'm sick of them all and I have no respect for their boss, King George II. Yes bring them home and if anything have them defend our borders. I'm tired of Dubba Yuh telling us that we are fighting them over there so we don't have to fight them here when he leaves our borders wide open.

Dubya and his shills have been working to convince the public that you can't support the troops if you don't support the administration. So Gen. Zinni does not support our troops? Did Col. David Hackworth not support our troops?

Joseph P Carey

06-14-05, 03:20 PM

Maybe, I took a wrong turn somewhere! Is this the Marine Leatherneck dot com? Or, is it the Jane Fonda Dot Com? Maybe, it is the Cut and Run network, or something like that. From listening to you guys, you would think I was on the Campus of Berkley.

If we allow some thieves and third world radicals to run-us-off again (Vietnam, Labanon, The Miyaguez, The Pueblo, Somalia, even, for Chist sakes, Haiti and Liberia), where do we go from here? Hell, the word is out gentlemen: "You do not have to fight the Americans any more! All you have to do is hide and throw a couple of bombs, and wound a couple of people, and kill a couple, and the USA will fold like a cheap suit, they will bring their tail between their knees, and they will be gone!" Situation normal, the bad guys win! And, the USA is just another Paper Tiger. Disgusting!

Fox 2/23

06-14-05, 03:50 PM

You may want to study the writings of Maj.Gen. Smedley Butler, USMC. I'm sure Hannity would have called him a "left winger" too.

Osotogary

06-14-05, 03:51 PM

I drift that I got, Mr. Carey, is the opposite. No one wants war, or should I say, no one that I know wants war but if there has to be one and we are involved let's kick the livin' beejeezus out of our enemies. Let's do what it takes to win by bending, flexing, breaking the ROE. Let's fight the enemy and not ourselves. Lets not bullsh*t around. Let's fight to win.
I'd also like to see equal, or as close to equal, contibutions, whatever positive contributions they may be, made by all American citizens in this effort to win. I don't see the advertising wheels in spin as they were in WWI or WWII. I don't read, on an equal format, the good things that Ameicans have accomplished in Iran. I don't see positive win effort on a continual basis.
Mr. Carey, the Americans I know fight wars to win but these same Americans grow weary of the dilly-dallying, politically correct, decision making that is costing American lives. Of course the lives that are being lost aren't those of the decision makers and that may be the problem...on both sides. We, as Americans should all fight to win.

Fox 2/23

06-14-05, 04:20 PM

I agree with Osotogary. If this war isn't worth EVERYONE being involved, it isn't worth fighting. I will make no bones about it. I dislike Bush. I believe he made a bad call(at least bad for the people that have to fight). I believe he is wrecking the Constitution. I believe in whacking terrorists wherever you find them but I don't believe in "nation building". The motive for going to Iraq tends to keep changing. Who cares about bringing democracy to Iraq?? It isn't worth my son's life. It wouldn't last anyway. We are US Marines not the Waffen SS. We have the right to question our leaders.

Joseph P Carey

06-14-05, 05:23 PM

For Christ Sakes People, you are Marines! You have one fuction as a Corps, You enforce the policies of the United States Civilian Government.

How many Soldiers and Sailors did we lose on Normandy? How many Marines did we lose on Tarawa, Iwo Jima, Okinawa, and in Korea, and in Vietnam? If you take off the 400 or 500 people that we lost to heart attacks and traffic accidents, and to suicides in Iraq, there has not been that much blood shed in Iraq when you consider it has been two years, and a Guerrilla war to boot.

My Dad told me there were islands in the South Pacific that they could not shell with Naval Guns, because the Palmolive Soap Company owned the Coconuts trees on the islands, and the company was charging the US government $75.00 a tree destroyed by US Marines and Sailors in combat (the Average Marine only made about $43.00 a month in pay, so you can figure that it was worth it to the cgovernment to kill off two Marines instead of one Coconut tree). That is just the way things are.

The Banana War's in Central America were fought for the benefit of the United Fruit Company, and Chiquita Banana in the 1930's, to keeps profits from going to the locals

We have been the arm of US Policy for our existance. Being a Marine, and being political is not compatable. You are there to fight, if that means you get out in your underwear and carry broom sticks, that is what you do. You are not the National Guard. The only thing that the Marines promise you is that you will fight the battles, and the only thing you owe the Corps is that you win those battles, no matter how restricted they are. Hell, if you do not like the Corps, get out when your enlistment is up, no one is forcing you to stay, as a rule.

Hell, I do not know if I would have made it the full 30 I was hoping for, In truth, I was kind of a S___bird in Garrison, but I was one hell of a Marine in the field. As it was, I had one of my pins knocked out from under me, and that sort of made that argument moot anyhow, but at least I knew what my job was and why I was there as a Marine, maybe you guys have forgotten what you were there for. Yours is not to question orders, but to follow them, no matter how stupid they may seem at the time.

As far as the Waffen SS remark, you had better get checked out on your Marine Corps History Sweetpea, ask any Central American what they think of the US Marines, and you may be very upset at what they think of us, but we aren't there to win any popularity contest, only battles.

Bringing democracy to the Middle east is worth much more in the way of lives than you could imagine.

Osotogary

06-14-05, 07:59 PM

Mr. Carey,
I have no qualls about enforcing the policies of the United States Government, especially if that is my job. I would hope though, that in doing my duty, that those who delegated me to perform those duties would have a winning attitude and provide me with the leadership and supplies to get the job done as quickly and as thoroughly as possible. Fight to win or don't fight at all.
By the way, Mr. Carey, I enjoy your posts. Thank you for your input.

hrscowboy

06-14-05, 08:31 PM

The buttom line is gentlemen we fight a war to win no bars held and thats what these government people need to be told.. We fight to win and win only and No One tells us how to fight it.. We fight to win thats the buttom line and if government dont want it that way then we dont need to be fighting at all... enuff said..

greensideout

06-14-05, 09:13 PM

Mr Carey, you ain't got it figured out yet?

Tell me what we won fighting for U.S. Policy in Vietnam?

Go to the wall---take a look around---and you tell me it was worth the price.

Either kick ass in Iraq or get the Hell out!

jirzman

06-14-05, 09:22 PM

Mr Carey,
I agree with you to an extent.I am a Marine but nowhere in my "Oath" did it say give up being an American first.Being a Marine,does not mean giving up your right to speech,or express your views.Nowhere does it say,you give up your right to disagree,as long as you,as a Marine,still get the job done.I served my country and was wounded fighting for what my government felt was the right thing to do.I didn't agree with all of the policies,decisions,or civilian interference,but I knew my job and performed it well.Osotogary,Fox2/23 and anyother Marine,have that right to disagree with the way the "WAR" if it is that,is being fought.The coflicts you spoke of,atleast we knew the enemy and blasted the hell out of them.When we are loosing our Troops to roadside bombs,idiots blowing themselves up to kill our troops,and we are tied down with having to deal with "Civilians" worried about the handling of the Koran rather than our troops getting blown to bits,we need to us a different strategy,or get out.Turn the Marines and Troops loose or they will continue fighting an invisible enemy.
As always,well written Ellie

Joseph P Carey

06-14-05, 09:51 PM

Originally posted by hrscowboy
The buttom line is gentlemen we fight a war to win no bars held and thats what these government people need to be told.. We fight to win and win only and No One tells us how to fight it.. We fight to win thats the buttom line and if government dont want it that way then we dont need to be fighting at all... enuff said..

The secret to America's Armed readiness is the constant fighting that its military does. The only real Military that has any actual combat in the the last Fifty Years has been the US Military. We were losing our edge because many of the Vietnam era vets were out of the fight, or going out of the fight by the time that Desert Shield got started, and ten years later here we are in Iraq and Afghanistan. It is a great live fire range, which no one else in the world has.

The only thing that keep us at peace in the world is the constant readiness of the Armed Forces. You do not think that that dildo head Kim in Korea is afraid of anything other than the US Forces that he may face. He may have a well trained 2,000,000 man army, but who have they fought since 1955? Besides, he does not have the logistics to go after the South Koreans. Six months after he starts a war in South Korea, his supplies would be used up, and his soldiers would starve, not to mention already being decimated by a force one tenth its size. He would not use Nukes, becuse it would not make sense to do so. After all, he wants the industrial power of the South Koreans and the agricultural base that the South has. What good would it do for him to destroy it with radiation?

The Chinese have a professional Army, but they too have always been a land based army and never much interested in expansion for the last 500 years, and to expand to areas in the south would be counter productive, as when they tried before in the late 70's, the North Vietnamese threw them back the 50 miles they entered the nort of Vietnam.

But the North, Manchuria, Mongolia, and the west, the Russias and the former Soviet Satellite States may be an option, but no bread basket for them there, besides, the Communists have another problem, Communism is dying in Communist China, and Capitalism is now taking over. They have no sea power so to speak, and even if they build the planned five fleets of a Navy in the next ten years, with Aircraft carriers, they would be an untried navy to say the best. Japan would beat them in a naval battle, because Japan has the premier naval fleet in the Asian Pacific, next to the Americans.

The Middle East and Central Asia are the problems for the world, because they are midevil in nature and politics. They have nothing to lose, and everything to gain, if they could just win one major battle. Democracy is that battle.

Democracy is a disease. It spreads internally in governments of authoritarian regimes like it did in Europe with the formation of the American Colonies into a single country. Monarchies fell left and right, and parlimentry goveornments replaced them in just a rather short time of the historial clock.

Even in the Middle East, there are signs of Democracy's power currupting the tribal rule of centuries. The Saudis have a limited experiment in elections, the Egyptians as well, the Palestinians, and the Lebanese are taking the country to the people.

In Central Asia, Afghanistan is a start, Pakistan will come next, and finally Syria and Iran, probably Iran first to the west of Afghanistan.

The Cucassus, Georgia and other former socialist satalite states have now gone the way of Democracy. Little by little Democracy wears away at despots, but it must have its seed.

The insurgents would like to delay the process, and only our leaving can stop the growth. I say we are on the right road, but we must be patient. After all, Rome was not built, or destroyed in only a day. It took years and blood to build Rome, and it only took years of complacency and self protection to destroy it.

Iraq is very important, and it is just as important that they be able to defend themselves. Give them time to get blooded to build sprit de corps in their units. It will happen, but we must pull back to allow this to happen, and that does not mean to leave, it only means to allow them to fight their own battles, it means to hold their hand, until they can clench their fist. This is the battle for democracy, and we are winning. Don't pull the plug now!

Phantom Blooper

06-14-05, 10:12 PM

Mr. Carey , I would like to know if on your resume have you ever held any political office? Just wondering. Semper-Fi! "Never Forget" Chuck Hall

hrscowboy

06-14-05, 11:30 PM

Yes and it only took 2 atom bombs to bring japan to there knees and a surrender. Buttom line kick there arses and take no prisoners and forget what other countries think. These people drew first blood on sept 11 not us.. enuff said

Joseph P Carey

06-15-05, 03:26 AM

Originally posted by greensideout
Mr Carey, you ain't got it figured out yet?

Tell me what we won fighting for U.S. Policy in Vietnam?

Go to the wall---take a look around---and you tell me it was worth the price.

Either kick ass in Iraq or get the Hell out!

Green side out,

That is an interesting question. What did we win fighting for US Policy in Vietnam?

I guess the first thing I would have to say, to answer a question with a question, is what would have happened had we not gone into Vietnam?

Instead of only Vietnam, Cambodia, and Laos falling, perhaps we could have added Singapore, Malaysia, Indonesia and Thailand to the list. Maybe, even Australia and New Zealand and the Philippine Islands. Who knows what the future would have brought. I do know that the North Vietanmese would have had another 1.5 Million Soldiers that they did not have because of us. I also know know that we probably would have had to make an opposed beachhead landing somewhere in Vietnam, or some other country in the area, and started from scratch on a beachhead somewhere under truly severe conditions.

I know that We would have been without Oil and Natural Gas from the fields of Indonesia and Vietnam. I know that we would have been overwhelmed with refugees from SE Asia. I know that we would not have held the Philippines Islands for very long, because of the HUK rebels there being supplied from SE Asia, and I know that we may have been fighting in the Koreas again.

We were there for eleven years, and we gave the rest of the SEAsian Countries a chance to build up their defenses, and to learn to stop the takeover of their countries.

In truth, I believe that had we landed a Division of Marines in North Vietnam, which the Russians feared most of all, we would have been able to cut off the enemy from the use of the Ho Chi Minh Trail, the war would have been over in 6 months, and it would have saved thousands of American Lives, but we didn't. Too bad! No Guts; no Glory!

I also know that the Congress of the USA cut off the legs of the President by cutting off the funding for the war, while the President was in negotiations with the North Vietnamese for an acceptable truce and some standards by which there still would have been a South Vietnam today, and maybe a free Cambodia, and a free Laos would have come from an acceptable truce, but the Congress took the tools away from the President that he surely needed. I do know that the Congress of the USA did fail to keep its word to the South Vietnamese, and they did fail to deliver military hardware that was already appropiated for them. I do know that the Congress of the USA failed to honor the Truman Doctrine and the Military and Economic Agreement that we had with the South Vietnamese since 1950. And, I dop know that when the Communists broke their agreement with the USA, the Congress failed to act.

Tell me now, what did it do for our credibility to walk out on an ally, to turn our back, and to have 45 Million people turned over to the Communists?

Boo Hoo! We kicked Butt in Vietnam, it was our elected Representatives that sold us out, and the Communist knew they would. They invested heavy in political campaigns of the peace candidtes. They invested great amouts of money here in the USA with the peace movements to defeat us. All they had to do was wait and to absorb their loses, and in time they would win.

Can you see a pattern here? Does it sound familiar? It is the same thing that the Fundamentalists are doing to us in Iraq. It is the standard operating procedure against the backboneless Ameican Politicians and US Public.

If you do not want something bad enough, it will never be yours. We did not want Vietnam bad enough, now you would have the same thing happen in Iraq. Shame!

Osotogary

06-15-05, 07:46 AM

Mr. Carey,
How many "grunts" were involved in active combat rolls during the Vietnam War? Seems to me that the percentage was small compared to the administative machine that was in place at that time. Was it 3 out of every 10 serviceman? My memory isn't serving me very well this morning. If the percentages had been flip-flopped to 7 combat 3 admin can you imagine what the results would have been? I'd like to see a 7 combat to 3 admin ratio in Iraq.

Joseph P Carey

06-15-05, 02:52 PM

Originally posted by Osotogary
Mr. Carey,
How many "grunts" were involved in active combat rolls during the Vietnam War? Seems to me that the percentage was small compared to the administative machine that was in place at that time. Was it 3 out of every 10 serviceman? My memory isn't serving me very well this morning. If the percentages had been flip-flopped to 7 combat 3 admin can you imagine what the results would have been? I'd like to see a 7 combat to 3 admin ratio in Iraq.

Actually, I always thought, when you include all support troops, including the Air Wing, it was a ratio of 17 support troops to one combat Marine (17:1), but the number sounds so rediculous that I can not believe that number. You would have to remember, that no unit, most specifically the line Companies, were not TO Strength.

Even giving you something a little closer to home, by experience, My Company (Kilo 3/7) when in the field, in full force, numbered approximately 100 Marines (TO at that time was something in the neighborhood of 247 enlistedmen and officers; If I remember, TO was actual Present and accounted for, meaning men in sick bay and temporarily seperated from the unit [Brig, Hospital, Training Assignments, what have you, but still on the Company roster]). If the other companies of the Battalion were in roughly the same shape (TO Strength), that means that the Battalion in the field, with no Company held in reserve, was roughly 400 Marines. You can take it from there. That means 1200 Marines for a Regiment, and 3600 0300 Marines for a Division. When you include The Artillary Regiment for the Division, that was another added 1000 Marines. We were a reinforceed Division, so there may have been 6000 to 7500 actual Grunts, maybe 10000 when you added in H&S units. According to the records of the day, there were 52,000 Marines in Country when I was there, but then again, that was TO Strength units, and I do not think any unit was TO Strength in Vietnam when I was there. Everybody was short handed! But using those numbers, if they were actual numbers, that breaks out to approximately 52 (Support troops) : 10 (Combat Infantry Marines), or closer to 5:1, when rounded off.

To add a little in support of these numbers, I know, when the full company went into the field, take for instance Operation Texas, we only used 14 Helicopters to transport the whole company into the field. Each of those 'old giant Grasshoppers' held 6 to 8 men depending on the equipment they were transporting with the men, so that gives us numbers in the field of from 84 to 112 Marines in the field for the company. I believe we lost in 2 KIA and 24 WIA in the operation (I was one of the WIA). That was a lose of 32% of the Company at low number of Marines, and 21% at the optimum number of Marines in the field, but, by TO Strength, that number would have only been 10% (a little over) if they used the TO Strength of the company, which they did when releasing information to the news media, that was considered light casualties.

I don't know if that answered your question, but it is the best I can do from the top of my head, using information that was available to me at the time, and personal observation.

Osotogary

06-15-05, 03:25 PM

Mr. Carey,
Thank you for your response. It was certainly more than I expected and I appreciate your effort.

I guess 5 to 1 will have to be the benchmark for combat but I never thought that it would ever be that high or comprehend it ever being that high until......
..I formed this peacetime analogy-correct or not.

With the professional motor racing that I have seen on television you have one driver, one car, and maybe five guys in the pit (I'm not sure of the exact amount), plus the guys that are keeping tabs on your fuel, time around the track etc., etc. Ball park figure might make the driver to support team a 10 to 1 ratio and that is just auto racing! They are all doing the very best they can to win and then go home.

Why should war be any different?

Thanks again. I need a beer. Ladies, I know it's Ladies Night but can you find it your hearts to provide a two litre Sapporo Beer for me?

Phantom Blooper

06-15-05, 03:43 PM

Mr. Carey , I would like to know if on your resume have you ever held any political office? Just wondering. Semper-Fi! "Never Forget" Chuck Hall

BUMP!

_________________________

Fox 2/23

06-15-05, 06:04 PM

Well Joe, I wish you the best brother. When all is said and done, I will be strongly discouraging my boys from enlisting(they have no interest). I have even considered sending them out of the country if His Majesty attempts to draft them. I have two sons that will be of military age by the time King George leaves office. I don't trust him or his administration. He is a chickenhawk as is the shills that belt out his "talking points". I'm a second generation US Marine myself and proud of it but I have to think I'm a little older, a little wiser and a little more well read than when I stood on the yello footprints as a 17 year old. If there is a war where everyone goes, everyone pitches in and it is plain and obvious to everyone and does not need chickenhawk radio talk show hosts to explain, then my kids will go and fight alongside Bush's nephews or whatever. But not this bullcrap that Bush started and doesn't know how to end and ties the hands of our people and threatens them with courts martial and second guesses their actions in combat. In World War II the elites fought alongside the commoners. If that isn't going to happen anymore then the elites can go fight their own wars and kiss my arse. I didn't raise my kids up to have them carelessly tossed into the fire by a chimp-faced politician. We need to kill cockroaches wherever we find them, I have no problem with that, but I disagree with the occupation of Iraq, it will continue to drain blood and resources until the day the last American leaves. And what about that southern border of ours Mr. President?

Joseph P Carey

06-15-05, 07:06 PM

Originally posted by Fox 2/23
Well Joe, I wish you the best brother. When all is said and done, I will be strongly discouraging my boys from enlisting(they have no interest). I have even considered sending them out of the country if His Majesty attempts to draft them. I have two sons that will be of military age by the time King George leaves office. I don't trust him or his administration. He is a chickenhawk as is the shills that belt out his "talking points". I'm a second generation US Marine myself and proud of it but I have to think I'm a little older, a little wiser and a little more well read than when I stood on the yello footprints as a 17 year old. If there is a war where everyone goes, everyone pitches in and it is plain and obvious to everyone and does not need chickenhawk radio talk show hosts to explain, then my kids will go and fight alongside Bush's nephews or whatever. But not this bullcrap that Bush started and doesn't know how to end and ties the hands of our people and threatens them with courts martial and second guesses their actions in combat. In World War II the elites fought alongside the commoners. If that isn't going to happen anymore then the elites can go fight their own wars and kiss my arse. I didn't raise my kids up to have them carelessly tossed into the fire by a chimp-faced politician. We need to kill cockroaches wherever we find them, I have no problem with that, but I disagree with the occupation of Iraq, it will continue to drain blood and resources until the day the last American leaves. And what about that southern border of ours Mr. President?

Being Honest with you kid, you were two years a Marine, 83-85, I did not think that the Marines had two year enlistments in the 80's, the draft ended in the 70's, and they were the only Two year Marines that I knew of, and the Marines that were blown up in Lebonan in the 80's were with the 8th Marines, so it would not be a wound from the explosion there that took you out early from your enlistment. Perhaps, you have ulterior motives for taking the way you do? Perhaps you have an ax to grind against the Marines already? Or, Perhaps you are not whom it is you say you are?

Just asking. It is the old investigator in me that causes me to act suspiciously of things that do not seem to jive or fit properly as they come about.

For the Record, the President is the President, being Irish in my background and lineage, I would have never voted for a King! Speak with respect for the Office of the Presidency, if you have nothing good to say about the President, than speak of the office. Even I called President Carter by his poroper title, President, and I am sure that I could have used some very affectionate words for him as well, but he was the President of the United States, and there have only been few men that have attained that office in our History. It is obvious that you will not be one of them.

rick taylor

06-15-05, 07:06 PM

Did I miss something Fox2/23. I dont think Mr. Bush was flying the planes on 9/11 was he. He is our Pres.& commander in chief. I didnot like Pres. Johnson but went to Nam anyway. It was my job.With this kind of support the sand pit will end like Nam. Semper Fi R.T.

jegries

06-15-05, 07:09 PM

Its about time that we were to focus elsewhere on the war on terrorism like acts against humanity. We liberated them that was our part let them take over. Lately in the news more and more civilians are being hurt and killed on a daily basis rather military members. Its about time to let them take care of thier own bad apples. The general public n Iraq will eventually realize that they are killing thier own people and will no longer take it.

Phantom Blooper

06-15-05, 07:12 PM

Mr. Carey , I would like to know if on your resume have you ever held any political office? Just wondering. Semper-Fi! "Never Forget" Chuck Hall

BUMP,BUMP,BUMP!
______________________

greensideout

06-15-05, 08:08 PM

Originally posted by Joseph P Carey

Green side out,

That is an interesting question. What did we win fighting for US Policy in Vietnam?

In truth, I believe that had we landed a Division of Marines in North Vietnam, which the Russians feared most of all, we would have been able to cut off the enemy from the use of the Ho Chi Minh Trail, the war would have been over in 6 months, and it would have saved thousands of American Lives, but we didn't.

We kicked Butt in Vietnam, it was our elected Representatives that sold us out,

Can you see a pattern here? Does it sound familiar?

Thank you Mr Carey. You did an excellent job of supporting the point that I made.

jirzman

06-15-05, 10:10 PM

Mr.Carey
You opened my eyes on one thing you said.The 2 year enlisted person you mentioned,had to be 14years old if his profile is right,when he entered the service!!!!!!!!!!!!

Phantom Blooper

06-15-05, 10:17 PM

Computer gliche- Check allot of profiles if you put your year on your birthday in shows 12/31/69. Thousands of Marines born on New Years Eve.

*********************************************
Mr. Carey , I would like to know if on your resume have you ever held any political office? Just wondering. Semper-Fi! "Never Forget" Chuck Hall

BUMP!BUMP!BUMP!BUMP!

jirzman

06-15-05, 10:32 PM

Thanks for the correction Phantom.To err is human,but easy to acknowledge when a Marine covers your butt.Thanks

Joseph P Carey

06-16-05, 03:36 AM

Originally posted by rick taylor
Did I miss something Fox2/23. I dont think Mr. Bush was flying the planes on 9/11 was he. He is our Pres.& commander in chief. I didnot like Pres. Johnson but went to Nam anyway. It was my job.With this kind of support the sand pit will end like Nam. Semper Fi R.T.

Rick,

I think 'Fox' got thrown out of the Corps in the 80's, and I think he is bitter. That much is pretty evident about him. I did not like President Johnson as well, but I was a Marine, and I knew my duty. My duty was to the Constitution, the Country, the Flag, and the Civilian Authority (Even if I did not like who was elected). The individual Marines are not political; they are the 'Trained Terrors', They are the 'Night Sweats', they are the 'Final Solution', They are the 'Hammer of America" to anyone that is an enemy of the USA. That is our job. There is nothing worst, and more useless, that a philosophical Marine in combat. There is nothing philosophical about going in fast, and ripping the throat and the heart out of your enemy.

Phantom Blooper

06-16-05, 06:14 AM

"Mr. Carey , I would like to know if on your resume have you ever held any political office? Just wondering. Semper-Fi! "Never Forget" Chuck Hall"

Must have some political background,as I have been to this rally and have asked the same question four times and my question has been sidestepped and gaffed off each time.

Just hunting for a job in 2006 & 2007 ending in January 2008,so I can get my social security in order and looking for a campaign manager position. I can be a team player......

Semper-Fi! "Never Forget" Chuck Hall :banana:

rick taylor

06-16-05, 06:20 AM

Well said Marine. Thanks, sometime I have a little trouble expressing myself when my anger takes over. P.T.S.D. does that to some of us.Ha,Ha. Semper Fi R.T.

Fox 2/23

06-16-05, 10:14 AM

I'm not going to post my real birthdate on the internet. But being that you are calling me out, I was born in late 1965. Graduated from MCRD San Diego 8-12-83. Platoon 3050, platoon high shooter. ...

Joseph P Carey

06-16-05, 01:19 PM

Fox wrote: "btw Joseph, what did you mean by saying that we are the Final Solution? Just need a clarification on that as the term has been used once before in history(die endlosung)."

Your profile reads 83 to 85 as time in the Corps. I remarked about the two year enlistment. You wrote it, I didn't. I know the years that I served.

As far as the final solution, when all the hand waving is done, and all the diplomats have said their last words, and there is nothing left to be talked about with any successful conclussion to be seen, there is the one exception, the Final Solution, and the order goes out, "Send in the Marines!"

For you to make something else out of the two words 'Final Solution' is just something I expect of you. All mathematical equations have a 'final solution' to a problem, how one arrives at a 'final solution' is strictly theory and execution. For the USA, the Final Solution is simply "MARINES'.

Phantom Blooper

06-16-05, 01:30 PM

"Mr. Carey , I would like to know if on your resume have you ever held any political office? Just wondering. Semper-Fi! "Never Forget" Chuck Hall"

Must have some political background,as I have been to this rally and have asked the same question FIVE times and my question has been sidestepped and gaffed off each time.

Just hunting for a job in 2006 & 2007 ending in January 2008,so I can get my social security in order and looking for a campaign manager position. I can be a team player......

Semper-Fi! "Never Forget" Chuck Hall :banana:

Fox 2/23

06-16-05, 01:53 PM

yeah Phantom, your point is not lost. If Joe would care to go to the search engine of his choice and type in "final solution". Are any of your children now serving Joe, or have served? If so I would like to offer my gratitude for their service.

Phantom Blooper

06-16-05, 01:54 PM

Maybe, I took a wrong turn somewhere! Is this the Marine Leatherneck dot com? Or, is it the Jane Fonda Dot Com? Maybe, it is the Cut and Run network, or something like that. Maybe it is Sprint or ATT or Verizon dot com."Do you hear me now.com?" Maybe it is a tribute to the late Rodney Dangerfield dot com. Hell,it's the line is busy.com. The party line is filled up and they are talking to everybody but me. Waaaah! Security,SECURITY hecklers at these conventions are bothersome!

Semper-Fi! Gotta Love It Chuck Hall :marine:

Joseph P Carey

06-16-05, 02:03 PM

Originally posted by Phantom Blooper
"Mr. Carey , I would like to know if on your resume have you ever held any political office? Just wondering. Semper-Fi! "Never Forget" Chuck Hall"

Must have some political background,as I have been to this rally and have asked the same question FIVE times and my question has been sidestepped and gaffed off each time.

Just hunting for a job in 2006 & 2007 ending in January 2008,so I can get my social security in order and looking for a campaign manager position. I can be a team player......

Semper-Fi! "Never Forget" Chuck Hall :banana:

:-) No, old buddy, I am not a politician, and "If chosen to be a candidate, I will not run."

As I usually answer the questions of anyone that writes to me, or about me, I am very sorry to not have answered you. Actually, I thought it was just a cleaver remark, and no answer was needed. I do apologize to you, although I should have picked up on the Bumps, I did not. Again, I am sorry, it was rude and not so observant of me, you deserved an answer.

Phantom Blooper

06-16-05, 02:07 PM

THANK YOU SIR!! Enough said I will go somewhere else to have fun! Thank you for your time! Semper-Fi! Chuck Hall

P.S.Well back to the classifieds. Anybody else need a campaign manager,I can work part time! ROTFLMAO! :marine: :) :banana:

Joseph P Carey

06-16-05, 02:59 PM

Fox Writes: "yeah Phantom, your point is not lost. If Joe would care to go to the search engine of his choice and type in "final solution". Are any of your children now serving Joe, or have served? If so I would like to offer my gratitude for their service."

Actually Fox, I am well read on the pre-, during-, and post- World War two politics of the German National Socialist Workers Party, aka NAZI, and their "Final Solution" of the Jews, Gypsies, and other lesser Arian types according to their determination. The 'Superman' Society so to speak. The Nazi's were losers in war and in their policies, as well as their hatred of certain peoples, and their policies to eleiminate the same certain peoples. But the two words, Final Solution, has been used by Acadenics, Liberals, and others without a word of the significance to the Nazi Party of WWII Germany. It is still used in higher forms of math as the end product of a linear equation.

I explained rather clearly that I was using it as part of a linear equation (Lack of communication + Lack of cooperation + Lack of agreement + lack of a forseeable peaceful sollution = United States Marines Corps). You apparently want to make me out to be a racist, because I used the words "Final Solution"! It is an old Left Wing trick that has not ever worked with any success before, and did not work now.

Thank you for your interest.

By the way, there is a Japanese Baseball team called the Marines, and before you ask me as to whom it is that I am referring to there as well, I can assure you, it is the United States Marines, and not the ballteam.

I hope this answered your question.

As far as my children, They are none of you concern, but my son, born 1969, served in the Army (His choice, not mine), he got his bumps, and he graduated with honors from college. My three daughters did not serve, all but one a college grad, the youngest, Momoko, is still going to school at 25. She wanted to work her way through school, rather than have me pay for it. I am very proud of each one of them.

Fox 2/23

06-17-05, 12:24 PM

Sounds like you have some great kids Joe and no, I was not trying to portray you as a racist. Also, I am not a "liberal" in the context of America's current atmosphere of political polarization but some of the entres on the menu at the Republican Cafe just don't taste good to me.

Since the end of WWII some kids have gone off to fight and some have gone off to chug beer in frat houses(to be facetious). That's the way it is and our society and culture accepts it. Being that both are time honored American pursuits, I would hope my kids would opt to serve Wall Street in a shirt and tie rather than a helmet and flak jacket.

Sempers

Joseph P Carey

06-17-05, 01:03 PM

Originally posted by Fox 2/23

Since the end of WWII some kids have gone off to fight and some have gone off to chug beer in frat houses(to be facetious). That's the way it is and our society and culture accepts it. Being that both are time honored American pursuits, I would hope my kids would opt to serve Wall Street in a shirt and tie rather than a helmet and flak jacket.

Sempers

My son did both, he served his country, and he served his financial security, when he was done with the military, as many of us did on this network. No shame in that! We are all leaders in one way or another in our respective fields as civilians. And, We never gave up our responsibilities to our Constitution, and to our country, to this day, in the pursuit of the Dollar.

Perhaps, we are just different! We are a minority in America, a very vocal minority, but a minority all the same, and a minority the country can not long survive without!

If it appeals to you to have your elected officals, like Durbin of Illinois, call the US Military Storm Troopers and Nazis, as well as comparing them to the Stalin Gulag, and the Guards at the Hanoi Hilton, than so be it. You must remember that these same people that call us names now, are the same people that defended Stalin (and the USSR's subsequent leaders) and Ho Chi Minh (and his subsequent leaders in his unelected government to this day; never a vote cast by the people in Vietnam; brutality took the country; brutality has kept the country) all during their regimes.

Strange isn't it? We the people that can vote on anything, elect people that would take our vote away to be like their heroes the Soviets and the Viet Minh, and the Viet Cong, and they call us names to boot.

Fox 2/23

06-17-05, 02:18 PM

Why would you assume that Durbin's comments appeal to me?

teddechman

06-17-05, 02:37 PM

Concur, 100%

Semper Fi!!!

Joseph P Carey

06-17-05, 03:34 PM

Originally posted by Fox 2/23
Why would you assume that Durbin's comments appeal to me?

He wants to release our enemies to kill us, the same as you would have them get a reprieve in Iraq and any where else in the world. If we turn tail and run now, what good would all the Trained Military be in the future? There would be a thousand different trouble spots, and they all would know that a little bullying and the US would leave with its tail between its legs.

Fox 2/23

06-17-05, 03:58 PM

Joseph, you are making some pretty big assumptions. Should I assume you are a fascist religious fanatic since you are assuming I am a liberal? I think Dubya was an idiot to invade and occupy Iraq. We are there however because of his "vision", because he said so. History is full of bad calls, Iraq is one of them in my opinion. If you want to make assumptions, that is fine, you can call me a leftist, atheist what-have-you and you can be my rabid right wing buddy in Tucson.

Having reached a deadlock over Iraq, do you want to argue over something else? How about Glocks vs 1911's, big slow bullets vs small fast ones or AR's vs AK's, ha ha.

When it cools off this fall, maybe I can come down and we can join up with the Minutemen. It would be cool if we could nab a Chechan with a dirty bomb or a vial of ebola. We would be heroes Joseph! We might be invited to the White Palace to have lunch with the His Majesty!

I'm going home, have a good weekend.

Joseph P Carey

06-17-05, 10:08 PM

I wrote to Fox : "He wants to release our enemies to kill us, the same as you would have them get a reprieve in Iraq and any where else in the world. If we turn tail and run now, what good would all the Trained Military be in the future? There would be a thousand different trouble spots, and they all would know that a little bullying and the US would leave with its tail between its legs."

In reply, Fox wrote me: Joseph, you are making some pretty big assumptions. Should I assume you are a fascist religious fanatic since you are assuming I am a liberal? I think Dubya was an idiot to invade and occupy Iraq. We are there however because of his "vision", because he said so. History is full of bad calls, Iraq is one of them in my opinion. If you want to make assumptions, that is fine, you can call me a leftist, atheist what-have-you and you can be my rabid right wing buddy in Tucson.

Having reached a deadlock over Iraq, do you want to argue over something else? How about Glocks vs 1911's, big slow bullets vs small fast ones or AR's vs AK's, ha ha.

When it cools off this fall, maybe I can come down and we can join up with the Minutemen. It would be cool if we could nab a Chechan with a dirty bomb or a vial of ebola. We would be heroes Joseph! We might be invited to the White Palace to have lunch with the His Majesty!

I'm going home, have a good weekend.
My answer:

1) I am not a very religious man, and never really have been; I am also not a fascist; and, in some cases I am considered a little to the right of Attila the Hum, and in other cases a little left of Karl Marx; it really depends on the subject we are talking about.

2) Again, the President is the President, if you refer to the holder of the Officer of the President, Please use the proper title and name, it shows good manners and upbringing.

3) The plans for the invasion of Iraq were on the board long before President Bush office; if it were a vision, it was one shared by President Clinton as well.

4) I don't think it was a bad call. Iraq is the Crossroads of the Middle East, all roads lead to Baghdad. With the taking of Afghanistan, and our troops with their backs to the Iranians (Who, I might add had, have cooperated with the Iraqis before and recently [Kuwait]). There was no way to absolutely protect the troops in Afghanistan, as Afghanistan is a land bound country. By taking Iraq, the USA put two armies at either side of the Iranians, causing a rather interesting bit of reforms in Iran, and it cut off supplies to the Taliban from the Syrians, the Saudis fundamentalist and the Palestinians, and it put a large number of troops on the ground where a large army could maneuver more effectively. Eventually, there would have been war in the Middle East, better now than when the different factions allied themselves. Iraq was also an object lesson, where by a small number of American troops rolled up an army that the Iranians fought to a draw in an Eight Year War, and the Syrians already knew the power of the American Forces, being a participant with the Americans in the First Gulf War. Added: Iraq became an excellent target because they signed a truce to end the Gulf War, which they did not live up to, much like the North Vietnamese did not live up to their truce in Vietnam, when the Americans did nothing to curtail them.

5) I believe I have mentioned before that I am not into weapons that much; although, I could tell you the differences in the two pistols that you mentioned, but I do not waddle my time away with a great deal of these discussion. Now, if you would like to discuss Kafka versus Stephen King, fine.

6) I have not joined the Minutemen when given a chance to, because it is not a solution to the problem. They were too publicized, and the Coyotes and the Druggies ran their operations around them. The Government, being the government, paid more attention to the minutemen than they did to their duties in the stopping of border interdiction. The combined efforts of the ACLU and other Immigrant Groups made the whole operation a media circus and inept. Call me when they are willing to shoot a couple of Drug Smugglers or Coyotes, and I will be glad to come along, but not to stop farm workers going to pick apples for 'Mom's Apple Pie' that have been making this trip for the last Seventy-five Years or so. That is just bad economics and stupidity combined into one effort.

7) If you go to the White House, Say hello to the President for me, and tell him that I may not agree with everything that he does, but he is our leader, and he is a much better leader than could have occupied the WH from the candidates that were in the hopper. He has my support.