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muck
06-03-05, 06:31 PM
Which Flag is Which?
by Richard McDonald

The people of the United States actually have two national flags: one for our military government and another for the civil. Each one has fifty stars in its canton and thirteen red and white stripes, but there are several important differences.

Although most Americans think of the Stars and Stripes (above left) as their only flag, it is actually for military affairs only. The other one, meant by its makers for wider use (peacetime), has vertical stripes with blue stars on a white field (above right). You can see this design, which bears civil jurisdiction, in the U.S. Coast Guard and Customs flags, but their service insignias replace the fifty stars.

I first learned of the separate, civil flag when I was reading Nathaniel Hawthorne's The Scarlet Letter, published in 1850. The introduction, titled "The Custom House," includes this description:

From the loftiest point of its roof, during precisely three and a half hours of each forenoon, floats or droops, in breeze or calm, the banner of the republic; but with the thirteen stripes turned vertically, instead of horizontally, and thus indicating that a civil, and not a military post of Uncle Sam's government, is here established.

It took me two years of digging before I found a picture that matched what he was describing: my second clue was an original Illuminated History of North America (1860). If this runs against your beliefs, look up those two references.

History book publishers contribute to the public's miseducation by always picturing the flag in military settings, creating the impression that the one with horizontal stripes is the only one there is. They don't actually lie; they just tell half the truth. For example, the "first American flag" they show Betsy Ross sewing at George Washington's request, was for the Revolution - of course it was military.

The U.S. government hasn't flown the civil flag since the Civil War, as that war is still going on. Peace has never been declared, nor have hostilities against the people ended. The government is still operating under quasi-military rule.

You movie buffs may recall this: In the old Westerns, "Old Glory" has her stripes running sideways and a military yellow fringe. Most of these films are historically accurate about that; their stories usually took place in the territories still under military law and not yet states. Before WWII, no U.S. flag, civil or military, flew within the forty-eight states (except in federal settings); only state flags did. Since then, the U.S. government seems to have decided the supposedly sovereign states are its territories too, so it asserts its military power over them under the "law of the flag."

Today the U.S. military flag appears alongside, or in place of, the state flags in nearly all locations within the states. All of the state courts and even the municipal ones now openly display it. This should have raised serious questions from many citizens long ago, but we've been educated to listen and believe what we are told, not to ask questions, or think or search for the truth.

NOTES

1. hornswoggled: deceived. The term comes from the traditional image of cuckolded husbands wearing horns.ķEditor
2. canton: The rectangular section in the upper corner of a flag, next to the staff.
3. The Scarlet Letter: An Authoritative Text, edited by Sculley Bradley, W. W. Norton, New York, 1978, pp. 7-8.
4. There is also a picture of the Coast Guard flag in Webster's Third New International Dictionary of the English Language Unabridged, G. & C. Merriam Company, Springfield, Mass., 1966.
5. For more about the law of the flag, see "A Fiction-at-Law . . . ," in the printed version of Perceptions Magazine May/June1995, Issue 9, page 11. About the author: Richard McDonald is a California Citizen domiciled in The California state Republic. He does legal research and has his own site on the web, The Citizens Forum File area .

Joseph P Carey
06-04-05, 02:37 AM
http://www.pueblo.gsa.gov/cic_text/misc/ourflag/history1.htm

THE HISTORY OF THE STARS AND STRIPES

The Stars and Stripes originated as a result of a resolution adopted by the Marine Committee of the Second Continental Congress at Philadelphia on June 14, 1777. The resolution read:

"Resolved, that the flag of the United States be thirteen stripes, alternate red and white; that the union be thirteen stars, white in a blue field representing a new constellation. "

The resolution gave no instruction as to how many points the stars should have, nor how the stars should be arranged on the blue union. Consequently, some flags had stars scattered on the blue field without any specific design, some arranged the stars in rows, and some in a circle. The first Navy Stars and Stripes had the stars arranged in staggered formation in alternate rows of threes and twos on a blue field. Other Stars and Stripes flags had stars arranged in alternate rows of four, five and four. Some stars had six points while others had eight.

Strong evidence indicates that Francis Hopkinson of New Jersey, a signer of the Declaration of Independence, was responsible for the stars in the U.S. flag. At the time that the flag resolution was adopted, Hopkinson was the Chairman of the Continental Navy Board's Middle Department. Hopkinson also helped design other devices for the Government including the Great Seal of the United States. For his services, Hopkinson submitted a letter to the Continental Admiralty Board asking "whether a Quarter Cask of the public Wine will not be a proper & reasonable Reward for these Labours of Fancy and a suitable Encouragement to future Exertions of a like Nature." His request was turned down since the Congress regarded him as a public servant.

muck
06-04-05, 09:07 AM
OK Corporal,
Thanks for the History however, WHAT IS YOUR OPINION???
LOL - Sorry, just had to say that.
SF,
Muck

CHOPPER7199
06-04-05, 11:12 AM
WHAT ONE FLYS AT THE WHITE HOUSE? IF THERES TWO VERSIONS WHICH SHOULD WE CITIZENS BE FLYING? ANOTHER QUESTION, HOW MANY TIMES HAVE THEY CHANGED THE VERSIONS IF THEY HAVE AT THE WHITE HOUSE SINCE THE 50 STATES?

Joseph P Carey
06-04-05, 12:21 PM
Originally posted by muck
OK Corporal,
Thanks for the History however, WHAT IS YOUR OPINION???
LOL - Sorry, just had to say that.
SF,
Muck

Actually, that was my opinion. Since 1787, that is our flag. That is the only flag that I recognize as the flag of the Republic of the United States of America. What you were offering up was the Customs House Flag, not the flag of the USA.

If we still had the 'Don't Tread on Me!' with it's rattlesnake parted in 50 parts by now, that too would have been all right, if that was what we have become accustomed to saluting at since September 17, 1787. The Stars and Stripes is our heart, and although it has had a different number of stars and sometimes a different number of stripes, the stars have always been white, the union has always been blue, and the stripes have always been red and white.

Between 1777 and 1960, Congress passed several acts that changed the shape, design and arrangement of the flag and allowed for additional stars and stripes to be added to reflect the admission of each new state.

The flag at Fort McHenry, of which Key wrote the 'Star Spangled Banner' was considerably different from the current flag, as it had more stripes than the present flag does, as is evident in the following act: Act of January 13, 1794 - provided for 15 stripes and 15 stars after May 1795, but the 'Stars and Stripes' as solidified by the Act of April 4, 1818 - provided for 13 stripes and one star for each state, to be added to the flag on the 4th of July following the admission of each new state, as was signed by President Monroe.

Your original argument loses some face in light of the facts that I have printed.

In truth, if it were some dirty old pair of bloomers that we have come to recognize as the reason we are who we are today, than I would be just a proud and defensive of those dirty old bloomers as I am our Stars and Stripes.

With the official start of this nation, when the Constitution was adopted in 1787, Old Glory has been our flag, and no other shall take its place in my mind, and no other has been the symbol that so many men have bled and died for. It is the only symbol I know that is a contract of the union of the 50 states of the Americas into one everlasting Republic.

Is that opinion enough for you?

muck
06-04-05, 02:28 PM
Yes, and I agree with you. What I was expecting from responces was something to the following:

the author states ....The U.S. government hasn't flown the civil flag since the Civil War, as that war is still going on. Peace has never been declared, nor have hostilities against the people ended.

Civil War has been over for years, just the left wing nut jobs keep bringing it up..

The author has a hint of GOVERMENT CONSPIRACY
He states....educated to listen and believe what we are told, not to ask questions, or think or search for the truth. .....and this .....".so it asserts its military power over them under the "law of the flag."

And then at the end of his report he adds this in his notes:1. hornswoggled: deceived. The term comes from the traditional image of cuckolded husbands wearing horns.---But yet nowhere in his report did he use the term hornswoggled

All this tells me --This guy smells at bit FISHY and that this piece was probably thought up by some commie/liberal.

Just my opinion,
Semper Fi,
Muck

MOUNTAINWILLIAM
06-05-05, 09:09 AM
ANOTHER VIEW ON "WHICH FLAG IS IT?'

As I read Muck's question - "What is your opinion on this???? ." I got the impression that He had come upon the McDonald article, questioned it's content and decided to "run it up the flagpole" to guage response. Indeed, there was a reaction. I don't think there would have been "offended" responses had he phrased the question in a different manner, for example – Another Airhead (the author of the article) has stepped forward with yet another crackpot hypothesis on our American traditions, What is your Opinion?

It is my opinion, the person to take to task is.....Mr. McDonald, not Muck. If McDonald needs background on his rant, following are a a couple of websites -


THE 'CIVIL FLAG' - FORGOTTEN FLAG; OR FLAG OF FICTION?

http://mysite.verizon.net/vzeo1z2a/CivilFlag.html

THE SIGNIFICANCE OF THE "YELLOW FRINGED FLAG"

http://mysite.verizon.net/vzeo1z2a/YellowFlag.html

(These websites are very informative and offer a number of other sites where research, on the flag issue, are available.)

PS: There was nothing civil about the civil war.




:marine:

Ed Fleming
06-05-05, 09:16 AM
I kinda' like the good old stars and stripes that I fly above my beautiful Marine Corps flag. 24/7

muck
06-05-05, 11:29 AM
Thanks MOUNTAINWILLIAM,

I am not very computer literate, so I have a hard time trying to do searches for anything. I usually get my son to do it for me. LOL

Thanks for the sites also, I enjoyed them.

I wasn't trying to be controversial, I had just never heard of any second flag and was just asking if anyone had.

Thanks again Bro,
Semper Fi,
Muck