The Fire Is Still Burning

[hillbilly_0311]

sittin' in front of my 'puter. should be taking care of my billing and my labor projections. but instead, i'm thinking about those youngsters in the "sandbox' right now, and how i wish to God i could be there. i know that one man cant do a whole lot, but, by God, i'd stand their firewatches, do their mess duties, wash their skivvies, or whatever else i could do to make their life a little more comfortable, while they are away from their friends, families, and loved ones, demonstrating what it takes, the price that has to be paid, and the sacrifices that must be endured for that ideal called "Freedom". and, my eyes get to sweatin' a little, when i think they could do so much more, if only they had the support of everyone, whether it be republican or democrat, liberal or conservative, rich or poor, and politician or private citizen.
since i cant be there to help them, cause the old bones are creaky, and i know i couldnt keep up, i'll just open my Bible and read in the Old Testament of the great battles fought by the Armies of Israel in ancient days, and i'll reflect upon how the Almighty God Jehovah looked down upon them and insured that victory would be theirs. i'll read those stories laid out in such detail, and when i go to bed tonight, i'll say a little prayer to that same Great God Jehovah, and ask Him humbly to look down upon our Brothers and Sisters, our Sons and Daughters, our Husbands and Wives, and all the others there fighting for the Rightous Cause of Freedom, I'll pray to Him and ask that "Oh Merciful Lord God, give them a place to lay their weary head tonight, give them something sustaining to eat, give them a few moments of peace, and Lord, give them many more tomorrows. Bless each and every one of them, and guide them as they go about their duties, and bring them home safe. in the Mighty Name of Jesus, Amen.

S/F Brothers and Sisters
hillbilly

[yellowwing]

Amen.

As a 4th grader in 1974 the teacher still read a chapter out of the good book a day. I always perked up when ole King David was kicking the crap out of the philistines!

I can't remember exactly that one story where they were facing a larger force, but they were still commanded to reduce their troop strength.

So the test was how the men drank from the stream.

Only the Few and the Proud that still were cautious and on watch while drinking were selected to battle the vast horde. And they still were victorious!

Someone please enlighten me on where that particular story is written.

[Phantom Blooper]

The Story of Talut <br />
Saul, Gideon, David and Goliath <br />
<br />
Jochen Katz <br />
<br />
<br />
In Surat al-Baqara we find the Qur'anic version of the story of King Saul. <br />
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<br />
2:246

[Phantom Blooper]

2:246
Hast thou not turned thy vision to the Chiefs of the Children of Israel after (the time of) Moses? They said to a prophet (that was) among them: "Appoint for us a king, that we May fight in the cause of Allah." He said: "Is it not possible, if ye were commanded to fight, that that ye will not fight?" They said: "How could we refuse to fight in the cause of Allah, seeing that we were turned out of our homes and our families?" But when they were commanded to fight, they turned back, except a small band among them. But Allah Has full knowledge of those who do wrong.
The motivation is very clear. Verses 243 and 244 set the topic of having had to abandon homes and the consequence is the command to fight now in the cause of Allah. In order to support this purpose, the story of Talut is recited in a way that is tailor-made for the current situation of the Muslim community. The truth of historical accuracy is not a major concern. The issue is the call to fight for Allah (meaning: for Muhammad and the Muslim community). Current reality is projected back into the old stories, and used to warn the listeners that turning back and refusing to fight will incur the displeasure of Allah (2:246 - "those who do wrong"), and to call for investment not only of their life (fighting) but all they have (their possessions) into this cause (2:245).

Why the inclusion of David and Gideon into the story? This could be part of the motivation: The Muslims were still few, and the enemies were many. One of the great victories over a fearsome enemy was little David's slaying of the giant Goliath. So this well known story got included into Muhammad's recitation because he wanted to give his followers confidence for the upcoming battles. The same dynamic holds for Gideon's case. It surely looked like a small group of Muslims would have to fight a large Meccan army. This is similar to Gideon who was called to fight with only 300 men against ten thousands of the Midianites (Judges 7:12) and God deliberately downsized Gideon's army several times, so that the victory is God's, not Gideon's (Judges 7:1-8). The number of fighters is not a problem for God. This is a very motivational element.

Has Muhammad only confused the stories because he didn't remember all the details he had heard from the Jews? That might be part of the reason for the historical confusion and compression in these verses, and this partial memory and confusion based on hearsay can be seen even clearer in some other Qur'anic passages. One part pointing to memory problems is the fact that the author of the Qur'an is seemingly not able to name the prophet, and so he leaves him anonymous. But it was probably not only a problem of Mohammed's memory - more likely the changes were motivated in part by his desire to use the inspiring stories of courage and God's miraculous intervention in the past to encourage and spur on his small band of followers to obey him without questioning as the one on whom Allah has put his authority (2:248). And indeed, that verse is an exhortation challenging the listener with the question for self-examination: "if ye indeed have faith".

In the 4th point above, it was already pointed out that it is historically incorrect to claim that the Israelites supposedly wanted to begin fighting, since they have been fighting their enemies under God's command already for centuries. However, military action is new for the Muslim community at this time. Muhammad was only their spiritual leader during the time in Mecca. After the flight to Medina, Muhammad becomes their political leader and chief commander of the Muslim armies. The beginning of fighting is the historical situation for the Muslims, not the Israelites. Symbolically speaking, Muhammad was a prophet before (like the the unnamed Samuel who is seen in a spiritual leadership role only), but now he becomes like the king Saul, who is a military commander. And just as Muhammad encounters the resistence of his people who do not want to follow him for various reasons - including that he is not among the most respected leaders, or not wealthy enough, not a noble one - so he lets the enemies of Talut speak out these accusations, and then let's Allah answers on his behalf that these are not valid reasons and that he has chosen Talut in His own superior knowledge (He knows all things) and His sovereign will (Allah chooses whom he pleases).

Furthermore, the prayer of the Israelites in ayah 2:250 does not reflect historical reality. The Philistines might have mocked the faith of the children of Israel as part of their general war propaganda, but they were not in a religious war. They just wanted to conquer and loot Israel for the booty they could get. Nor was Israel fighting against the Philistines because they were unbelievers, but because they were attacking the land and cities of Israel and they had to defend themselves. The recurring phrases of "fighting in the cause of Allah" and "help us against those who reject faith" are distinctly Muslim phrases that are projected back into the mouth of the Israelites. Muhammad was waging a religious war against the Meccans who had rejected him and the message he had preached to them for many years. Israel was only defending against a military attacker to whom they had never preached their faith.

In point 5 we noted, that Saul was not rejected by the majority of his people, but celebrated as their king. There is no mention of open opposition to Saul at all (even though this might have been justifiably included in the light of the later development of his disobedience and rejection by God himself. They could have said: See, I told you from the beginning). But Muhammad was mostly rejected in Mecca and only a few followed his message and recognized his authority over them. Again, it is Muhammad's story that is narrated as if it were Talut's.

This is a further strange point: How come Talut has an army, even a large army as it seems, if he is rejected by the people? Where does this army come from? This is not coherent.

In point 7, we saw that Talut publically explains Allah's test to the soldiers. This again makes the story incoherent in regard to the original purpose of this test, but it is not about history, it is a sermon and call to action in the present time of need for the Muslim community. The issue is not the way people drink water, it is about being obedient. The challenge of obedience to Allah through obedience to Muhammad is placed before the listener. (And so the incoherence of the story makes sense in the historical context of the sermon.) And we see this challenge many times in the Qur'an when we read "Obey Allah and His messenger". Muhammad very cleverly binds the allegience of the people to himself.

A last small observation: Why did Muhammad name Saul "Talut"? This is seemingly the only name in the Qur'an for a Biblical figure which seems to have no linguistic connection to its Biblical name. According to the Shorter Encyclopaedia of Islam it is most probably chosen for poetic reasons to make his name rhyme with Jalut (Goliath, 2:249,250). Maybe another reason is that Muhammad correctly remembered that Saul was very tall (1 Samuel 10:21-24), and hence he is called Talut under the influence of the Arabic word taala (to be long/tall) as suggested in Paret's commentary on the Qur'an. But this is not directly stated in the Qur'an, and thus must remain speculative. The Qur'an does state that he had an impressive physique (bodily prowess: 2:247).

Conclusion

The Qur'anic story of Talut exhibits many historical inaccuracies. In particular we recognized the merging of several events that took place decades or even more than a century apart. The motivation for this version of the account is obviously the current situation of the early Muslim community in Medina which was in need of being encouraged for the upcoming battles.

Muhammad uses examples from "history" to inspire and encourage his companions to follow him in these battles and that Allah would give them victory just as he had given victory to the believers in earlier times, when they were in similar situations. He is not, at this point, concerned with historical accuracy and so, in order to make the account more applicable to the current situation, he takes liberties with history and produces a story which is conspicuously divergent from the historical narrative in the Biblical account.

Muhammad's message appeals to the experience and circumstances of his listeners, who were forced from their homes and families for the sake of following Muhammad's message. That would indeed be a reason for them to fight. But it has no foundation in the history of the Israelites at the time of Samuel.

Through the Qur'an (presumably from Allah) Muhammad is asking his followers (through the mouth of Samuel) if they would fight for Allah if they were so commanded! This exactly was Muhammad's call (2:244), and the current believers should follow the example of the old believers... And the displeasure of Allah on those who refused to fight (in the old story) is a warning to the current the listeners that Allah certainly will be displeased if they act likewise. This is Muhammad's way of indirect accusation against those who would not want to fight without having to confront them directly and personally. Honor and shame are very important elements in Middle Eastern culture and that might be one reason for using a story - since this allowed not having to shame anyone by naming them directly for their resistance, but nevertheless effectively communicating to them what Allah would think of them depending on their action.

To this day story telling, parables, are very popular means in the Middle East to communicate truth. Basically, Muhammad is creating a parable to get his message across in this indirect but nevertheless clear manner. The same method is used by the prophet Nathan to convict king David of his sin (2 Samuel 12:1-10) and Jesus tells many parables for the same reason, for example see Matthew 21:33-45 where the intended meaning is understood clearly by the audience. The problem is that Muhammad has chosen a historical figure for his parable and corrupted historical truth for his own ends. This is the reason we cannot accept this passage as a revelation from God, who is the truth, nor Muhammad as a true prophet. He has shown himself as an effective communicator, a great leader and motivator, but the standard to evaluate a prophet is whether he speaks truth, not whether he can get a large following through his oratory and people skills.

Muhammad recognizes that the bottom line is about truth. And so he concludes this section with


2:252
These are the Signs of Allah: We rehearse them to thee in truth:
verily thou art one of the messengers.
This is the ultimate purpose of this whole story. The listener is again called to accept Muhammad as the messenger of God. But the standard has to be truth. And according to his own standard of truth pointed to in this verse, Muhammad has failed this test. How then can we accept him as a true messenger of God?



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[hrscowboy]

Ridgerunners ( hillbillys )dont walk too good in the sand they walk real funny when they come off them there mountains and ridges..

[hillbilly_0311]

i know, and this hillbilly is a little more off-balanced than most. i had surgery a few weeks ago due to a diabetic related problem, and now have part of my right foot missing. i walk real funny now, kinda like a "weeble-wobble".

S/F
hillbilly