U.S. Re-Entry to Get Tougher for Americans

[Shaffer]

Associated Press

Americans will need passports to re-enter the United States from Canada (search), Mexico (search), Panama (search) and Bermuda (search) by 2008, part of a tightening of U.S. border controls in an era of terrorist threat, three administration officials said Tuesday.

Similarly, Canadians will also have to present a passport to enter the United States, the officials said.

The announcement, expected later Tuesday at the State Department, will specify that a passport (search) or another valid travel document will have to be shown by U.S. citizens, the officials said.

These include a document called Sentri (search) that is used for Mexico travel or a Nexus (search) for Canada travel.

Until now, Americans returning home from Canada have needed only to show a driver's license or other government-issued photo identification card.

Americans returning from Mexico, Panama or Bermuda currently need only a government-issued photo identification card plus proof of U.S. citizenship like an original birth or naturalization certificate, according to the State Department's Web site.

The new rules, to be phased in by Jan. 1, 2008, were called for in intelligence legislation approved last year by Congress.

Safeguarding U.S. borders are a top concern of U.S. intelligence and security officials. The concern increased after the Sept. 11, 2001, terror attacks on the World Trade Center in New York and on the Pentagon.

The travel industry has raised concerns that the changes might hamper tourism, one official said.

The announcement follows a three-way summit last month that President Bush held with Prime Minister Paul Martin of Canada and President Vicente Fox of Mexico.

Speaking at Baylor University at Waco, Tex., Bush said border controls with Mexico had to be tightened to make sure that terrorists, drug runners, gun runners and smugglers do not enter the United States.

Besides a passport, re-entering Americans could use another approved travel document like frequent travel cards, which are issued to some people who travel often between the U.S. and Mexico. These cards typically are used to avoid long border-crossing lines.

But in most cases, only passports will do, another U.S. official said.

The new system will deal first with the Caribbean, then Mexico and Canada. It will start at airports and subsequently spread to land crossings, said an official speaking on condition of anonymity.

U.S. inspectors will bear less of a burden with the changes because they won't have to sift through different kinds of travel documents, the officials said.

[hrscowboy]

Well no shlitz its about time someone thought about that shlitz. Now does this mean ifin you dont have no passport yours a alien in america....

[hrscowboy]

hell yes use the troops give them something to do...

[Lock-n-Load]

:marine: if you lived on the borders of Calif-Arizona-New Mexico abutting good olde Mexico??..I'm 100% behind all the viligilante-American residents who have "taken the law into their own hands" to get some semblance of peace of mind and security on thier property lines...what a way to live in the USA...the US Congress doesn't give a fiddler's [you know what]...even ALL the President's never gave a good [you know what]...I hope those real armed/taxpaying Americans mow 'em down by the thousands...I'd hate to pay to financially sustain all these ILLEGAL muttha/wetbacks: medical, education and Soc/Sec kisses in the mail every month...and all the crime they commit once in our USA, too...don't run outta ammo/water on the Mexican MLR...commence firing!!...Pat Buchanan wanted to post US Marine MG posts all over the trials leading over our southern borders in the 1998...the PC wimps wailed.."OMG"...I'm glad I don't live in Calif-Ariz-New Mexico for this travestry which good Americans have to endure down there.....ever go to San Diego???...it's infested/infeste/infested with ILLEGAL greaseballs clustered in their own barrios, you don't dare go out alone at nite, etc...what a shame to have to live like that...all over thousands of ILLEGAL foreigners sucking on our Soc/Sec system to which those muttha's never paid one red cent into....now wonder to all you youngerset in here..the Soc/Sec payouts will be all depleted by 2030..it's high time to take our country back...RIGHT NOW!! and these proud vigilantes are going to do just that!!:marine:

[yellowwing]

Illegal Immigrants Are Bolstering Social Security With Billions
By EDUARDO PORTER
NY Times, April 5, 2005 (http://www.nytimes.com/2005/04/05/business/05immigration.html?incamp=article_popular_4)
Stockton CA - Since illegally crossing the Mexican border into the United States six years ago, Ángel Martínez has done backbreaking work, harvesting asparagus, pruning grapevines and picking the ripe fruit. More recently, he has also washed trucks, often working as much as 70 hours a week, earning $8.50 to $12.75 an hour.

Last year, Mr. Martínez paid about $2,000 toward Social Security and $450 for Medicare through payroll taxes withheld from his wages. Yet unlike most Americans, who will receive some form of a public pension in retirement and will be eligible for Medicare as soon as they turn 65, Mr. Martínez is not entitled to benefits.

He belongs to a big club. As the debate over Social Security heats up, the estimated seven million or so illegal immigrant workers in the United States are now providing the system with a subsidy of as much as $7 billion a year...[story continues online]


141 nabbed at Mexico border: US volunteer patrol
AFP - April 4, 2005 (http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/afp/20050405/ts_alt_afp/usmexicoimmigration_050405005430)
TOMBSTONE AZ - More than 140 would-be undocumented immigrants from Mexico have been arrested since civilian volunteers launched a controversial border patrol, organizers said.


Formal patrols along the US-Mexican border in the state of Arizona began only on Monday, the Minuteman Project said, adding that 141 were arrested by advance operations.

"It has been successful. No one has come across," said Chris Simcox, whose Civil Homeland Defense border group is part of the Minuteman Project.

"Some 141 people were apprehended by the Border Patrol," the official US agency, as a result of the presence of Minuteman Project volunteers along the border ahead of Monday's launch of their patrols, he told AFP.

The angry citizens, whom US President George W. Bush and other officials have dubbed "vigilantes," are fed up with what they say is a US government failure to stop immigrants illegally entering the United States seeking jobs... [story continues online, but AFP, Agence France-Presse, doesn't cover the terrorist angle!]

I think the President's efforts to grant amnesty is on the money. We save the in place workers, keeping the SocSec dollars AND still make progress on securing the border from terrorist infiltration.

We can't have farmers with rotting vegetables in the field or terrorists walking the streets.

Yes, this Liberal thinks Presidents GWB gets lucky now and then and makes some good decisions. :banana:

[Lock-n-Load]

:marine: What are you trying to say, that all these ILLEGALS are upstanding taxpaying ILLEGALS...com' on...millions of these scumbags ILLEGALS bastards have never worked since flooding over the borders for decades...it is not Utopia with these ILLEGALS seeking haven in our country...you and I are light years from the way our hard working citizens have to contend with,, who live on the southern borders, I side with the Vigilantes to rid this vermin from traversing their property and safety/security...your post said it all from your very 1st word...ILLEGALS...that means breaking the law of our land...what goes on in Pacifist...OH, Canada ..I'm not privvy to, but here in the USA we react in a more direct manner to live in peace since [re:1776]...that article is alotta poppycock, a propaganda piece of fluff that these ILLEGALS are so upstanding ILLEGALS; rather, just riff/raff which they really are...I'm not vs the Legals who do pick our crops; I'm virulently vs all ILLEGALS in our country...throw their blood-money-sucking A$$e$ back into that cesspool called Mexico and to all the others whence they came...the topic is...what would you do if you lived on our borders with good olde Mexico...go there, yes, go there and you tell me how it would effect you living there 24/7 with no real security help from blind Uncle Sam!!...it a call to arms all over, again!! Semper Fi, Mac

[mrbsox]

I say

YES to the civilian patrols.
The 'Constitution of the United States of America' allows for 'THE PEOPLE' to support and defend, not just the government.

Paraphrased....
'... it should be allowed that the people be able to defend (the land) if government fails to...'
or something close to that. Thomas Jefferson I think.

I'll have to find the exact quote, and get it in here.

I say YES to the passports. Most every other country in the world requires POSITIVE, VERIFIABLE identification. Why not us too ??

[bigwalt]

I live right next to the Canadian border and there are mixed emotions here. I think it is a good idea but we have a lot of Americans crossing the border for work. Some people are looking at it as another way for the gov't to make more money.

[Old Marine]

Originally posted by Lock-n-Load
:marine: What are you trying to say, that all these ILLEGALS are upstanding taxpaying ILLEGALS...com' on...millions of these scumbags ILLEGALS bastards have never worked since flooding over the borders for decades...it is not Utopia with these ILLEGALS seeking haven in our country...you and I are light years from the way our hard working citizens have to contend with,, who live on the southern borders, I side with the Vigilantes to rid this vermin from traversing their property and safety/security...your post said it all from your very 1st word...ILLEGALS...that means breaking the law of our land...what goes on in Pacifist...OH, Canada ..I'm not privvy to, but here in the USA we react in a more direct manner to live in peace since [re:1776]...that article is alotta poppycock, a propaganda piece of fluff that these ILLEGALS are so upstanding ILLEGALS; rather, just riff/raff which they really are...I'm not vs the Legals who do pick our crops; I'm virulently vs all ILLEGALS in our country...throw their blood-money-sucking A$$e$ back into that cesspool called Mexico and to all the others whence they came...the topic is...what would you do if you lived on our borders with good olde Mexico...go there, yes, go there and you tell me how it would effect you living there 24/7 with no real security help from blind Uncle Sam!!...it a call to arms all over, again!! Semper Fi, Mac


Agreed, Agreed, Agreed. My exact beliefs.

[benny rutledge]

It Isn't just Mexican Nationals coming up through our borders!!!!There are hundreds of Columbians and various other Central and South American Illegals skulking through with the Mexicans.Mixed in with these folks are Various Arab nationalities who are DYING to come into our country and stir up ****.DEPLOY our troops from West (San Diego) to East and seal the border tight.All troops returning from the Sand pile could help out in this regard.If you don't believe the situation is bad,stand on the pedestrian bridge @ the San Ysidro border crossing and watch the OTHER foot traffic in the Tijuana River.It goes on 24/7 with apparently no interruption from the Policia or Border Guard.

[sm@@thrider]

If we need the Military to patrol our borders then why not pay them more, why pay a Baseball, Football, or any sports player a million dollars for playing with a ball when we have our sons and daughters out in the battlefield dying for this country and comming home from a war injured and not being able to get a job after but end up on the street or just work at a Micky D's. this is bull.. WKAE UP AMERICA!

[marinefamily5]

i totally agree with you on that one we sure the h*ll don't make enough money for the sh*t we do......

[Sgt Sostand]

hell yes use the troops to Guard the Border and give them Orders to shoot to kill cause the way things going now in America. America will destory it self from with in .we as a Country cant take care of the World

[marinefamily5]

sgt sostand,

we will try to take care of the world which i think is stupid........we should just keep to ourself instead of tring to help everyone........

[peoria8915]

I just gotta say LocknLoad is a racist mother******.Calling us wetbacks and all this other stuff.I'd like to see his ass go to mexico and get ****ed up.

[mvegausmc]

Need to enforce security in our borders and having Marines doing the job is just as good as protecting our CIC. Have Recon and Anglico monitor any activity inside the borders. Proper Planning, Proper Execution.

Semper Fi.

SSgt. Vega

[Joseph P Carey]

To all:

I do not have a good feeling about having to walk around with a passport in my pocket. Maybe, Paper and Passport checks at the different borders of the different states bring to mind the very things we fought against on so many different times.

Perhaps I am too old any more. I remember a time when ID was not required to be in the possession of an American Citizen. Whatever happened to the opinion that, if I do not wish to be known, why should you be.

During the WW's, Americans were not required to carry papers with them. Why now?

Maybe, before you think that I have slipped over to the ENEMY, I should explain somethings:
1. I was born and raised here in the US of A;
2. I was in the Marines, and was decorated for bravery on the battle fields of South Vietnam, and awarded with a Purple Heart with a cluster;
3. I do not support the government coming to our aid, whether we want it or not. Most times we do not;
4. I do support the rights of the citzen to protect himself, his family, and his property by any means available to him, including a force of arms;
5. I do not support gun laws, and Public Attorneys that would prosecute a citizen for protecting his property against people that are breaking the laws of this country.
6. I do not think that every Mexican that slips across our borders is here to hurt us, on the contrary, I have found them to be fine people and couragious individuals. Many of them have joined this nation's armed forces, and, if you would have looked at your side, when you were in the Marines, you would have found many a Canadian, Mexican, and European in the ranks that did not get to this country throgh the traditional draft quotas of the INS. One Canadian I know of received the CMH in Vietnam, and as recently as several months ago in Iraq, a Marine Sergeant, an Immigrant from Mexico, rolled over on a live granade to save his fellow Marines.

Don't become so phobic against foriegners, least you remember from whence we all have come from, right down to the Native Americans. We all had our family's beginnings in some other land. An American should not be described as from where he is born geographically, but rather by where his heart is.

I have no problems with citizens shooting drug smugglers, Terrorists, Alien Smugglers and the likes, but I draw the lines at making the people that just want a better life being made to pay, and Prosecutors going after the citzens protecting their property.

Quien Sabe? Troops will not help, but allowing citizens to protect their own land will. They know who is who. They see the same faces each day. They know the land, it is theirs, and they know the language better than anyone, if not they, than the people that work for them do.

Let the citizens take control of their own destiny, many times they are much smarter than the Wahington DC Paper Pushers.

[cquinonez]

i say to locknload you say mexican americans dont belong yet history has shown that mexican americans as a minority hold the most CMH now i ask you... do you still think we dont belong. every race has its black sheep. isnt that right locknload.

[Toby M]

Obviously this is a touchy subject because we all feel very passionate about our country and those that would infringe upon us. The government is not doing what we would like them to do but espousing racist attitudes will not solve the problems. We need to wake those people we elect into office and force them to do their jobs. They have a duty to us...Killing people for the sake of killing because they are different is not the answer. No offense to anyone on this post but some of you guys need to take a chill pill! My opinion only...

[Old Marine]

Originally posted by cquinonez
i say to locknload you say mexican americans dont belong yet history has shown that mexican americans as a minority hold the most CMH now i ask you... do you still think we dont belong. every race has its black sheep. isnt that right locknload.

I didn't see anywhere in lock-n-loads post where he mentioned mexican americans. He did, however mention illegal mexicans, and I agree with his post on that subject.

[Ed Palmer]

Not all of the Taco benders that sneak across are bad a lot of them will work a lot harder than the Mexicians that are born here and you wont find them involved in gangs like the ones born here, at least they want to work

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v733/Ed15Palmer/illegals2hr.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v733/Ed15Palmer/asay.gif

[OLE SARG]

Right now, the way our border security is, the only people that has to worry about getting across the border are legal citizens. Illegals cross both ways daily with no problem. Bush needs to get off his a$% and address our border security, no matter who or what politicians it ****es off.

SEMPER FI,
OLE SARG:no: :no:

[Lock-n-Load]

:marine: Thx for the dependable base of fire, Marine...I have been remiss in paying attention to this post until now...stand by, I got a couple of targets of oppurtunity on the skyline!!....Semper Fi:marine:

[Lock-n-Load]

:marine: I have been to San Diego many, many times and the ILLEGAL Mexicans, Central Americans, Brazilians Guatamalans, San Salvadorians and all other ILLEGAL Latin gangbangers...are bleeding our the Californian taxpayers white...they are nothing but vermin, scumbags and dregs on the American landscape...the Mexican barrios in San Diego are a cesspool of criminals breaking the law 24/7..WTF... they are ...filthy-cruddy-stinking wetbacks....all the Californians [living on the Mexican border] that I have talked to want them thrown out!!...how much of this crap do you see from Phoenix??...go down to Douglas, Arizona and see for yourself...I take it you are an American...I dunno...these ILLEGAL SOBs coming in from dirtbag Mexico should be gunned the-fvck-down in Douglas, Arizona and on the Southern California border...Hey, Pal, you are entitled to your opinion; so am I Buster; whether, you like it or not...I just happen to be one American Marine who says it like it is..."NO ILLEGAL/ILLEGAL WETBACKS WANTED in the USA!!".Semper Fi, Mac:marine:

[Lock-n-Load]

:marine: As for you, I don't know about the Mexican-American's holding the most MOHs...I doubt that assertion by you; however, what I think or say about ILLEGAL-Mexicans in my post is my opinion, just like everyone else's in here...if you are a Marine with thin-skin, that's your business...in my posts on this heated topic, I made it perfectly clear, it's the ILLEGAL Mexicans [ILLEGAL] I'm 100% against...OK??...you had your say and so did I...next??. :marine:

[Joseph P Carey]

Originally posted by cquinonez
i say to locknload you say mexican americans dont belong yet history has shown that mexican americans as a minority hold the most CMH now i ask you... do you still think we dont belong. every race has its black sheep. isnt that right locknload.

C Quinonez,

Right on Kid! I am with you! As far as I can see, Kerry was a traitor to his country, and he was not of Mexican descent. He was Massachusetts Bay Trash.

I was proud to serve with the Marines of Mexican descent in my companies. I would stand back to back with just one of them any day of the week, rather than with 100 John Kerry's.

Maybe, we should just weed out the Supposed Americans in this country that want something other than what we have here, but who would want them.

[Joseph P Carey]

Originally posted by Lock-n-Load
:marine: I have been to San Diego many, many times and the ILLEGAL Mexicans, Central Americans, Brazilians Guatamalans, San Salvadorians and all other ILLEGAL Latin gangbangers...are bleeding our the Californian taxpayers white...they are nothing but vermin, scumbags and dregs on the American landscape...the Mexican barrios in San Diego are a cesspool of criminals breaking the law 24/7..WTF... they are ...filthy-cruddy-stinking wetbacks....all the Californians [living on the Mexican border] that I have talked to want them thrown out!!...how much of this crap do you see from Phoenix??...go down to Douglas, Arizona and see for yourself...I take it you are an American...I dunno...these ILLEGAL SOBs coming in from dirtbag Mexico should be gunned the-fvck-down in Douglas, Arizona and on the Southern California border...Hey, Pal, you are entitled to your opinion; so am I Buster; whether, you like it or not...I just happen to be one American Marine who says it like it is..."NO ILLEGAL/ILLEGAL WETBACKS WANTED in the USA!!".Semper Fi, Mac:marine:

Lock-n-load,

You are just another Boston Big Mouth. You guys can not even keep US Traitors out of Congress in Massachusetts, and now you want to keep our borders? How very East Coast of you!

[Lock-n-Load]

:marine: You are firing blanks at me...you are another "newbie" in here...for the record, go back to Sparrow Hawks's Thread: "Vietnam vets vs John Kerry" in July 2004...the time the DNC was being held in Boston...I marched with the Vietnam Vets vs Kerry at the FleetCenter denouncing everything about Kerry, then we marched up to Kerry's glitzy home on Beacon Hill and denouced him in his swanky neighborhood [they even video taped our ranks]..we {I} did something active and constructive to DEFEAT John Kerry...outside of you on the couch with your remote...WTF...did you do to defeat John Kerry??...you are a trigger happy,GI...for the record, Joseph P. Carey, I have always been a registered and conservative Republican...never, never voted for Kerry or Fat Boy Kennedy...so don't rush to judgement, for you made WRONG assumptions about me; whatever else you THINK about me is your opinion; hopefully, you'll think before you go off half cocked, Joseph P. Carey....Semper Fi, Mac :marine:...PS---Seeing you live in Tucson, what are you doing to stop all those ILLEGAL Mexican [wetbacks] from line-jumping down there in Douglas,Arizona or.. maybe,just maybe...you just don't care????

[Joseph P Carey]

Originally posted by Lock-n-Load
:marine: You are firing blanks at me...you are another "newbie" in here...for the record, go back to Sparrow Hawks's Thread: "Vietnam vets vs John Kerry" in July 2004...the time the DNC was being held in Boston...I marched with the Vietnam Vets vs Kerry at the Fleetcenter denouncing everything about Kerry, then we marched up to Kerry's glitzy home on Beacon St and denouced him in his swanky neighborhood [they even video taped our ranks]..we {I} did something active and constructive to DEFEAT John Kerry...outside of you on the couch with your remote...WTF...did you do to defeat John Kerry??...you are a trigger happy,GI...for the record, Joseph P. Carey, I have always been a registered and conservative Republican...never, never voted for Kerry or Fat Boy Kennedy...so don't rush to judgement, for you made WRONG assumptions about me; whatever else you THINK about me is your opinion; hopefully, you'll think before you go off half cocked, Joseph P. Carey....Semper Fi, Mac :marine:...PS---Seeing you live in Tucson, what are you doing to stop all those ILLEGAL Mexican [wetbacks] from line-jumping down there in Douglas,Arizona or.. maybe,just maybe...you just don't care????

Lock n Load,

In all honesty L&L, your opinions to your friends must mean as much to people that know you, as it does to us. Hell, you could not even rally the Massachusetts vets, much less us.

Massachusetts is a bed of vipers. Take care of your own part of the country before you criticize other parts. California created their own problems with Immigration enforcement free zones just like Massachsetts did.

Do something about cleaning your own mess. We have been living with the Mexicans for years down here, after all, it was their country before it was ours. You do know that you can not tell who is who by their looks. They work hard everyday. They pay taxes. And, they were here before your Boston Bay Mayflower chugged into the rock. So, who is more American?

FYI, there were 126 Mexicans inside the Alamo, and they died with the Texans. Like I say, they are a brave bunch, and they hold a great amount of American History in their lineage.

[Lock-n-Load]

:marine: I asked you plain out...what did you do to DEFEAT John Kerry???...you artfully dodge my question...ILLEGAL Mexicans in the USA don't lawfully belong in the USA...nor do any other ILLEGAL aliens belong in the USA...what you refer to, I do not know...Auster La Vista,Baby!! LOL :marine:

[Joseph P Carey]

Originally posted by Lock-n-Load
:marine: I asked you plain out...what did you do to DEFEAT John Kerry???...you artfully dodge my question...ILLEGAL Mexicans in the USA don't lawfully belong in the USA...nor do any other ILLEGAL aliens belong in the USA...what you refer to, I do not know...Auster La Vista,Baby!! LOL :marine:

L&L,

You asked what I did to defeat John Kerry! Well, the simple answer is, I worked hard at it. You see I live in one of the states that did not vote for John Kerry by a two to one margine. I live in the state represented in the US Senate by John McCain and Jon Kyle, not Kennedy and Kerry.

This state is Mining, Agriculture, Construction, and Ranching, all low paying jobs. The Border Patrol picks up hundreds of thousands of illegals each year. But, as they want to go to the safe areas in the Northeast, the states that protect them from immigration raids like Massachusetts, I would say that you are the problem of the illegal immigration, not us. We are doing our share out here.

Believe me L&L they are not dying by the hundreds in the deserts to come here to work for minimum wages that we have out here. They are going to the NE to make much more money. Maybe they want to work in that Big Hole you have in Boston that just drains federal money each and every year, because they sure aren't sticking around here.

As I said before, clean up your own back yard first! Have your city and state officials allow the Immigration authorities to raid some of those immigrant factories in your state. Maybe then the flow will stop. Tell some of your politicians to check for IDs on some of their employees that they use for domestic help. Maybe even clean out some of those IRA members in the Kennedy houshold. Hell, that should relieve a lot of the problems right there.

By the way, it is hasta la vista!

[THATFEMALE]

Whoa! I haven't seen a subject cause this much of and uproar since the idea of Women in combat. I think that we should use our troops to guard the borders but I'm totally against using Marines for the job. We are way too above that crap. Say what you will but that's the truth. Honestly I don't give a crap where you come from. If you are an illegal immigrant you need to get up and get out. You boys play nice now. Sempers. :marine:

[Joseph P Carey]

Originally posted by THATFEMALE
Whoa! I haven't seen a subject cause this much of and uproar since the idea of Women in combat. I think that we should use our troops to guard the borders but I'm totally against using Marines for the job. We are way too above that crap. Say what you will but that's the truth. Honestly I don't give a crap where you come from. If you are an illegal immigrant you need to get up and get out. You boys play nice now. Sempers. :marine:

To be honest with you THATFEMALE, there are just as many people coming across the Canadian Border as they are from the Mexican Border, and the Canadian border is much more porous that the border to the south. Why is it that the Mexicans are singled out? If Terrorists are coming from anywhere, they are coming from Canada where there are large Islamic Communities. They find work in cities like Boston, New York, Chicago and Pittsburgh where there are large communities.

We recently had a sting go on here in Arizona, where members of the military were using military vehicles to transport Cocaine throughout the state. They are not law enforcement personnel, and they are not trained to be glorified cops. They are military, and the Constitution prevents them from being used as law enforcement, except for in cases of Marshall Law.

We had Marines down on the Texas Border, and when a kid jumped up with a rifle in his hands, the Marine that saw him killed him. Well, that was all sorts of screaming and haranguing for some time. The poor Marine that did his duty was crucified politically. I will not see that done to any American Soldier or Marine again!

What you people don't see about the illegals is that they pay their payroll taxes, and they pay their social security taxes, and they do not use them or claim them. This is all found money to the US Government. There are approximately 10 million (1/30th of the population) illegals in the USA, and they are working at legit jobs. To remove these people is to kill the Golden Goose. Think about how much money that is in revenue for this country, and think about what up rooting those workers will mean to the economy. Now, how are they hurting us?

[Lock-n-Load]

:marine: Get in your car and go down to Douglas, Arizona...get on your taco-crate and shout your clarion call to all those proud/armed Vigilantes who are virulently against all you pontificate about ILLEGALS Mexicans and whatever else is trampling across their private American homesteads...they took up arms and 24/7 patrols to try an get a semblance of peace of mind and security which the Government can't or won't do...go champion your defense of All the ILLEGALS flooding across Arizona's southern borders...confront your fellow Arizona residents who don't buy your thinking...what's holding you back, GI??...in here you have a much more diverse audience far, far away from Douglas and Nogales....will you please answer my question, since you hate Kerry so much [I'm amazed we agree on that], just what did you do to DEFEAT John Kerry from being President???...We are waiting Joseph P. Carey.

[Joseph P Carey]

Originally posted by Lock-n-Load
:marine: Get in your car and go down to Douglas, Arizona...get on your taco-crate and shout your clarion call to all those proud/armed Vigilantes who are virulently against all you pontificate about ILLEGALS Mexicans and whatever else is trampling across their private American homesteads...they took up arms and 24/7 patrols to try an get a semblance of peace of mind and security which the Government can't or won't do...go champion your defense of All the ILLEGALS flooding across Arizona's southern borders...confront your fellow Arizona residents who don't buy your thinking...what's holding you back, GI??...in here you have a much more diverse audience far, far away from Douglas and Nogales....will you please answer my question, since you hate Kerry so much [I'm amazed we agree on that], just what did you do to DEFEAT John Kerry from being President???...We are waiting Joseph P. Carey.

As far as getting down to Douglas and Naco and Nogales, I pretty well already know the border of the USA with Mexico. I have had to go south of the borders on occasions to return bail jumps to the system, but the only way I could get the people back across the border was through the wire. If I had been caught returning these said violators to the American justice system, I would have been arrested and spent the rest of my life in a Mexican prison, and I could expect no help from the US Government. the plan was simple, bring them across and turn them over to associates in the USA that would book the men into US Jails, as being discovered on this side of the border, avoiding any kidnapping charges from the Mexican Government.

For many years it was the USBP that had a hand in the transportation of illegals across the border, now it is a going criminal enterprise down here. Times they are a-changing.

Before you get the idea that I am some sort of a bleeding heart, banish that thought from your mind. I support the shooting of drug smugglers, and people smugglers on the spot. This is not what you would call a popular position with the local liberals, or the bleeding heart set, but I am in favor of guest worker programs and families being allowed to meet over nation's borders. Who the He11 are you to tell me what ALL the American think. When did you become the spokesman for all Americans. He11, you live in Massachusetts the most Liberal State in the Union of states.

For many years, we tried to correct the border situation in this state, but you East Coast Liberals blocked every move that was made to strengthen the borders. Now, you are all pi$$ed because the border runners are taking your jobs in the East because they are hard workers, and they are smarter than what you are producing in your schools. Tough crap!

In all honesty, the Border Patriots were a joke, and they were not well armed as you say. They saw crossers and they reported them, and the USPB picked them up, while the East Coast Establishment of the ACLU sent down Armies of workers to interfere with thier actions and efforts.

The Border Patriots were responsible for the internment of 354 crossers in an area where there is usually thousands that cross the border in a month. All the crossers did was move their operations to the east and the west of their usual crossing area with the help of the ACLU, and there is where they crossed.

All in all, the group was a welcome sight to the ranchers and the citzens in the area, because the ranchers and the citizens had 30 days of relative calm, but they were only there for thirty days. It was all for the publicity. In truth, I am glad that they did not run into any Drug Smugglers or People Smugglers, because they would have been shot and killed, and I am glad that everyone made it out alive and unhurt.

For twenty five miles north of the border, there is a suspension of Constitutional Liberties that are the rights of the US Citzen. Government enforcement may enter houses without warrant, may seach cars without warrant, and may detain American Citizens without charge. You East Coast crazies would have crapped a brick if they were to make the same rules for the Boston Bay Area.

The truth is, if they had no jobs to got to in the East, they would not be crossing the borders in such numbers. Stay out of our affairs here in the West, and clean up your own area first.

For the record: You call me GI again, and I will stick your GI right into you GI region. I am a Marine just like the rest of you.

As far as defeating Kerry, the first thing I did was not live in Massachusetts where he has been a US Senator for the last 20 years. The second thing I did was not vote for him as Presxident. And, all the way through the election process, I took my soap box out and stood and I talked to everyone I met, and I did my best to change their minds. There were a lot of people in Arizona that did the same. Do not forget, this was a state that Kerry thought he could take, and Kerry lost miserably, because of the efforts of people like me. It is too bad that you do not have the same repect for your opinion in your state as I do in mine.

[paquick]

THIS POST IS FOR JOSEPH:
FOXTROT UNIFORM CHARLIE KILO INDIA NOVEMBER A BRO!
+++
GI, THATS LIKE CALLIN US TROOPS OR DOGGIES
+++
SEMPER FI ALL

[Lock-n-Load]

You should run for political office you know so much, GI I'm just expressing my opinion...LOL...LOL...LOL...LOL...LOL... LOL....LOL.....LOL....LOL.....LOL......LOL...it only took you 3 posts to answer my question, thx, GI...LOL...LOL...LOL...LOL...:marine

[Joseph P Carey]

Originally posted by Lock-n-Load
You should run for political office you know so much, GI I'm just expressing my opinion...LOL...LOL...LOL...LOL...LOL... LOL....LOL.....LOL....LOL.....LOL......LOL...it only took you 3 posts to answer my question, thx, GI...LOL...LOL...LOL...LOL...:marine

L & L,

You think like a policeman, not a Marine. Our actions speak louder than words. The problem is that I did answer you once before my last communique on this thread, you just can not read, or you did not like my answer. Tough crap!

As far as running for office, I could not do that. I tell people the truth. I am not the a Kerry or a Kennedy, and I don't live in Massachusetts, where they elect such creatures.

Massachusetts the Commonwealth, is a sad state of affairs. Where else in the USA would they elect John Kerry and Teddy Kennedy? Where else, as a state, would they have voted for the likes of George McGovern, except in Washington, DC, that is. Only in Massachusetts!

Again, the GI crap! You are so childish! I am proud of the title, US Marine, we are a fantastic Brotherhood (our sisters included, of course), He11, some of those BAMs are more Marine than any of us could ever be. For the record, BAM is an affectionate title, I would never insult a lady Marine. I know better than to do that!

[Lock-n-Load]

Hey Joe....may I call you, Joe...how did the subject of BAMs come up??...OK, I'll string along with you...just what does the acronym: BAM mean to you???, I ask you to define it in affectionate terms...I know it's affectionate meaning, just wondering if we are on the same page,Joe...I sort of like being brought up Irish-Catholic in Massachusetts; perhaps,my Irish-Catholic manner of talking teeth to teeth with you is too abrasive for you, what can I say,is it worth saying anything to you...I dunno??...Do you ever plan to visit Massachusetts??...I've been to Phoenix and Tucson, mostly Phoenix, and I liked Arizona...had a most wonderful time[s] there...why do you demonstrate such HATERED to people from Massachusetts, surely, Kerry and Kennedy aren't the only crusts of your BITTERNESS, what did we do to hurt you??...some others in here would like to know why, also..OK, Joe??:marine:

[Joseph P Carey]

Originally posted by Lock-n-Load
Hey Joe....may I call you, Joe...how did the subject of BAMs come up??...OK, I'll string along with you...just what does the acronym: BAM mean to you???, I ask you to define it in affectionate terms...I know it's affectionate meaning, just wondering if we are on the same page,Joe...I sort of like being brought up Irish-Catholic in Massachusetts; perhaps,my Irish-Catholic manner of talking teeth to teeth with you is too abrasive for you, what can I say,is it worth saying anything to you...I dunno??...Do you ever plan to visit Massachusetts??...I've been to Phoenix and Tucson, mostly Phoenix, and I liked Arizona...had a most wonderful time[s] there...why do you demonstrate such HATERED to people from Massachusetts, surely, Kerry and Kennedy aren't the only crusts of your BITTERNESS, what did we do to hurt you??...some others in here would like to know why, also..OK, Joe??:marine:

L&L,

Anatomically speaking, the female anatomy is built wider in the hips and more so narrower in the shoulders than that of the male. It represents a pair shaped figure when seen from behind. The wider hips to allow the carrying and the birth of children, hence affectionately known as BAM. I think you know quite well what it means. It has to do with the basic difference of the female to the male.

As far as being Irish, you have now met one of the most hard headed Irishmen in the USA today. I fight tooth and nail for what I believe in.

Massachusetts? The state that has given us some of the worst liberals and Communist sympathizers in the country! Why should I not like Massachusetts? Hatred? CP Central? Why should I hate those in a state that continues to send the biggest traitor of the War in South Vietnam to Congress. The same man that called all the Soldiers and Marines in the fight, Baby Killers, Rapists, Murders, and he did it in front of the TV Cameras at a pet and dog show orchestrated by the Doves of Congress, while men were still fighting the good fight against his cronnies in North Vietnam, and while he was still a US Navy Officer. Why indeed? I also so don't like Hanoi either! Gee! What does that mean?

Gee! I don't really know, maybe, it goes back to my days as a boy when I was a big Yankee fan, and I used to watch the Pinstripes whip on the Red Sox. The only player they ever had that was any good back then was Ted Williams, but even Ted Williams once said, "The best team I ever played for was the US Marines." You have to love a guy like that no matter where he is from or who he plays for.

[Lock-n-Load]

:marine: I never heard a BAM described like your clinical definition, so be it...let me say this...BAM originated from the WW2 Male Marines, basically, it mean't, Broad-A$$-Marine in the vernacular; however, in 1997 at a US Marine Corps Tanker reunion near Camp Lejeune, I was dancing with a pretty "civilian" gal and she told me she was a W/Marine...I told her about the WW2 "BAM" definition which she was aware of...her version of "BAM" went like this, "Beautiful American Marine"...thx to this young W/Marine I always conjur up in my mind her declension of "BAM"...thank you for sharing you personal attitude about Massachusetts and East Coast thinking...except for Kerry and Kennedy, I can't agree with it; albeit, you are entitled to the way you see it....I have decided not to induce your temper and wrath over ILLEGALS in our country, it isn't getting us anywhere, so go your way and I'll go my way. The End:marine:

[sgt.r.n.davis]

THE U.S. TROOPS SHOULD HAVE BEEN THEIR , JUST AFTER THE MEXICAN WAR WAS WON!
THEY HAVE 58,000 U.S. TROOPS STILL AT THE BORDER;S IN SOUTH KOREA 50 YEARS NOW...WHY ??????????

BRING THEM HOME TO CLOSE THE BORDERS DOWN AND PROTECT OUR GREAT NATION FROM THIS ILLEGAL INVASION!!!!
WE WOULD NOT HAVE TO TRAIN THEM ,THEY'RE ALL EXPERTS AT BORDER PATROL, NOW HOW MANY NORTH KOREANS COME ACROSS INTO SOUTH KOREA ON A DAILY BASES. YOU COULD COUNT THEM ALL ON JUST ONE HAND!!!

WOULD WE WHILE DOING BATTLE LEAVE OUR ENEMY COME IN THROUGH THE WIRE TO FLANK US. EVERY U.S.MARINE WOULD DRAW DOWN ON THAT BREACH OF PROTECTION AND OPEN FIRE AND STOP THAT ASSAULT AS FAST AS IT STARTED!!!
TIME FOR ACTION,TIME FOR TALKING IS IN THE PAST!!!

:mad: :( :marine:

[Joseph P Carey]

Originally posted by sgt.r.n.davis
THE U.S. TROOPS SHOULD HAVE BEEN THEIR , JUST AFTER THE MEXICAN WAR WAS WON!
THEY HAVE 58,000 U.S. TROOPS STILL AT THE BORDER;S IN SOUTH KOREA 50 YEARS NOW...WHY ??????????

BRING THEM HOME TO CLOSE THE BORDERS DOWN AND PROTECT OUR GREAT NATION FROM THIS ILLEGAL INVASION!!!!
WE WOULD NOT HAVE TO TRAIN THEM ,THEY'RE ALL EXPERTS AT BORDER PATROL, NOW HOW MANY NORTH KOREANS COME ACROSS INTO SOUTH KOREA ON A DAILY BASES. YOU COULD COUNT THEM ALL ON JUST ONE HAND!!!

WOULD WE WHILE DOING BATTLE LEAVE OUR ENEMY COME IN THROUGH THE WIRE TO FLANK US. EVERY U.S.MARINE WOULD DRAW DOWN ON THAT BREACH OF PROTECTION AND OPEN FIRE AND STOP THAT ASSAULT AS FAST AS IT STARTED!!!
TIME FOR ACTION,TIME FOR TALKING IS IN THE PAST!!!

:mad: :( :marine:

Sgt R N Davis,

With all due respects Sgt, as all the actual terrorist coming into this country were cought in the North, along the Canadian Border. And, with the size of the Islamic Communities in our Northern Neighbor, perhaps you should reevaluate your position. You are setting up a Marginot Line like the French did against the Germans. It didn't work. Stop thinking like a Frenchman (Fortress USA), and start thinking like an American.

How much of a border do we have (Miles wize) between Maine and Washington. Now add in the border along the state of Alaska with Canada. Now, add the California to Texas Border with Mexico, and let us not forget the Atlantic Ocean, the Gulf of Mexico, and the Pacific Ocean, as well as the Arctic Ocean, and the Bearing Straights. Off hand, I would say we would have to increase the size of the Armed Forces by another 3 Million Men and Women, that is after we drag all the troops back from their foriegn deployments around the world, and of course, like in the Border areas to the South, a twenty five mile zone should be established where all the citizens living in that twenty five mile zone will loose their Constitutional Rights.

How many Congressmen are you going to get to agree to that? Just try to get Congress to draft Three Million people for the protection of the borders. It will never happen.

Now, what kind of a target are we (The USA) going to be in that kind of a fortress situation? And, how long do you think that something like that can last, before the USA falls apart piece by piece? We would be in a box. Roits would occur where their civil rights had been abridged ( in the most populus areas of the country).

As far as doing the Border thing when we won the Mexican American War in 1848, Living in the SW Desert is tough enough now, what would it have been like back then? Not to mention the little event called the Civil War that took place in the 1860s?

For a Marine you don't understand strategy, logistics, and planning, as well as history, politics, and social studies very much do you? How long do you think the people of the USA would pay for such a plan?

[sgt.r.n.davis]

:mad: :bandit:
ELITE MEXICAN COMMANDOS,TRAINED BY THE U.S. FORCES TO COMBAT THE DRUG CARTELS HAVE SWITCHED SIDES AND ARE WORKING FOR THE DRUG SMUGGLERS IN THE BORDER AREA POSING A SPECIAL HAZARD TO AMERICAN LAW ENFORCEMENT AND BORDER PATROL AGENTS, ACCORDING TO A U.S. JUSTICE DEPARTMENT...I GIVE AMERICA ABOUT 5-10 YEARS BEFORE WE WILL BE SEEING A DIFFERENT FLAG FLYING OVER OUR NATION. ACTION IS NEEDED NOW ! LATER WILL BE TOO LATE.

NO,SUCH THING AS A LITTLE BIT PREGNANT! YOU ARE OR YOU ARE NOT.:marine:

[iowasurfer2]

I agree peoria, we don't need to stoop to racist name calling. But I also agree that the majority of illegals coming across the Mexican border (Mexican, Columbian, or otherwise) are more of a burden than they are worth. Yes they contribute to the economy by doing the jobs Americans refuse to do, but the majority supplement their income with illegal drug trafficing or other crimes. Also, a large majority of the money they make goes straight back to Mexico. What good does that do our economy? It's not hard for a respectable Mexican citizen without a criminal history to get a visa to work in the U.S. The only reason people jump is because they either have a history that would cause the U.S. to reject them, or they are just too lazy to go through the proper channels to do it legally. Either way, as far as I see it, they can stay in Mexico. I feel this way about every country in the world, not just Mexico. But you don't see a lot of immigrants swimming in from Uganda, do you? Everyone wants a better life, but it seems that a large portion of illegal aliens come up here and ruin legal, law abiding citizens' quality of life. We should be free to protect ourselves from that.

[Joseph P Carey]

Originally posted by sgt.r.n.davis
:mad: :bandit:
ELITE MEXICAN COMMANDOS,TRAINED BY THE U.S. FORCES TO COMBAT THE DRUG CARTELS HAVE SWITCHED SIDES AND ARE WORKING FOR THE DRUG SMUGGLERS IN THE BORDER AREA POSING A SPECIAL HAZARD TO AMERICAN LAW ENFORCEMENT AND BORDER PATROL AGENTS, ACCORDING TO A U.S. JUSTICE DEPARTMENT...I GIVE AMERICA ABOUT 5-10 YEARS BEFORE WE WILL BE SEEING A DIFFERENT FLAG FLYING OVER OUR NATION. ACTION IS NEEDED NOW ! LATER WILL BE TOO LATE.

NO,SUCH THING AS A LITTLE BIT PREGNANT! YOU ARE OR YOU ARE NOT.:marine:

Are you sure you were a Marine, Davis? I have never known a Marine to be afraid of someone trained by the Army, and I sure as hell don't know any people trained by the Army that could take over a country, in fact we usually have to get them out of jail when they screw up.

Have no fear, we in Arizona will still be flying the Stars and Stripes for a good many years. You have to remember, we are not a gun-control state like the east coast. We take care of ourselves very well thank you.

[yellowwing]

1 in 2 new Americans since 2000 is Hispanic
U.S. adds 12 million residents; 6 million are Latinos
by Jon Kamman
The Arizona Republic, June 09 , 2005 (http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/news/articles/0609census-hispanic09.html)
The nation's Hispanic population has expanded by 6 million people since the 2000 census, equaling the growth of all other minorities and non-minorities combined.

Census Bureau estimates being released today show a Hispanic population of 41.3 million as of July 1, 2004.

With that 17 percent growth since the official census date of April 1, 2000, Latinos continued to widen their margin as the nation's largest minority group.

Immigration accounted for nearly half of the increase, and a high birthrate the rest.

Observers say the continuing rapid growth has broad implications on fronts ranging from the economy and race relations to politics and education.

"Now we are everywhere," said Jon Garrido, a leader of an aggressive faction of the Valley's Hispanic community. "I project that in the year 2020 the majority of the population in Arizona will be Hispanics."

Indeed, the nation's Hispanic growth rate is well above that of Arizona as a whole. As the nation's second fastest-growing state, Arizona added just 12 percent to its population in the 4 1/4 years in which Hispanics grew by 17 percent. Nevada, the top state for growth, also lagged the Hispanic rate by a fraction.

The effect is that for every six people of Hispanic ancestry in the United States in 2000 there are now seven.

Draw your own conclusions, I have had the pride of serving with Hispanics and I have no doubt of their fidelity and abilities.

[Joseph P Carey]

YellowWing: "Draw your own conclusions, I have had the pride of serving with Hispanics and I have no doubt of their fidelity and abilities."

I have to agree with you here Yellowwing, they are a brave and a tough people. It was an honor to serve with them.

What we have to note is, the article did not differenciate between what were illegal, and what were legal immigrants. The fact that there are so many different Spanish Speaking Countries, as well as US Possessions, that it is assured that most immigrants into this country will undoubtably be Hispanic for one reason or another, or have a Hispanic Sur name. And, even where there is not the Spanish Language, many third and fouth generation Americans are placed on the growing list of Hispanics based solely on their last names, whether or not they speak Spanish.

Living in the Southwest, in Arizona, I know many Hispanics that bear the spanish names, and many Native Americans as well, and they do not speak a word of Spanish, but they are listed as Hispanic by Government Census Workers. And, let us not forget the attractive quality of being Hispanic when it comes to minority hiring and Government Grants, many that did not list themselves as Hispanic before, do so now.

Truthfully, I prefer to call them Americans, for they, as a people, have earned that by their service to this country.

[USMCgrunt0331]

For the record...
I think something has to be done about the illegal immigrants coming into this country, they do more harm than good, it already pi$ses me off that in some schools and for some jobs it's requirement to learn the spanish language. I don't think I should have to learn a foreign language while living in America. Like anything, you've got to have restrictions.

I work with an Army Captain from Arizona who is planning on joining the minutemen when he gets out of the army, and he told me how hundreds of them trample thru people's yards tearing up their property and stealing stuff as they come thru.

Joseph, exactly what is your idea of what we should do? Nothing at all with no laws or restrictions on immigration? Your naive if you think that's a good idea. Also, you need to specify when you say east coast, cause there's huge difference between the northeast and southeast, in the southeast most of us ain't liberal and sure as hell don't support no gun control laws.

You talk about serving with good Marine mexicans during your service, well maybe it was different then, but far as I know you couldn't ever be a illegal and join the US military, most of us ain't against mexicans in general just illegal ones, if you were serving with them they weren't illegal. Why do you feel like you've gotta defend the mexicans so much? Minorities sticking together or something? Cause that crap just ****es me off, you should consider yourself an American and Marine first before everything else? I know I'm only a LCpl, but this is a forum so I'm gonna say my opinion the way I want.

Lastly, I don't think we should use Marines for Border Patrol. Standing out in the hot desert doing border control ain't in the job description for Marines, and they shouldn't have to do that. Whatta ya gonna do, create a new Border Control MOS? Maybe the national guard, but not the Marine Corps. It ain't our type of work, we've got more important crap to do. You think their gonna send military to guard the borders when were already stretched so thin there talkin about the draft? It ain't practical thinking. What they need is let the civilians do what they're doing, and upgrade the Border patrol with more manpower and some better barriers, like some nice barbwire fences all across the border, like the fenceline here in Cuba. That'll at least slow them down and make the holes where they cross a lot smaller.

[Joseph P Carey]

Grunt 0331: "Joseph, exactly what is your idea of what we should do? Nothing at all with no laws or restrictions on immigration? Your naive if you think that's a good idea. Also, you need to specify when you say east coast, cause there's huge difference between the northeast and southeast, in the southeast most of us ain't liberal and sure as hell don't support no gun control laws...You talk about serving with good Marine Mexicans during your service, well maybe it was different then, but as far as I know you couldn't ever be a illegal and join the US military, most of us ain't against mexicans in general just illegal ones, if you were serving with them they weren't illegal. Why do you feel like you've gotta defend the mexicans so much? Minorities sticking together or something? Cause that crap just ****es me off, you should consider yourself an American and Marine first before everything else? I know I'm only a LCpl, but this is a forum so I'm gonna say my opinion the way I want...Lastly, I don't think we should use Marines for Border Patrol. Standing out in the hot desert doing border control ain't in the job description for Marines, and they shouldn't have to do that. Whatta ya gonna do, create a new Border Control MOS? Maybe the national guard, but not the Marine Corps. It ain't our type of work, we've got more important crap to do. You think their gonna send military to guard the borders when were already stretched so thin there talkin about the draft? It ain't practical thinking. What they need is let the civilians do what they're doing, and upgrade the Border patrol with more manpower and some better barriers, like some nice barbwire fences all across the border, like the fenceline here in Cuba. That'll at least slow them down and make the holes where they cross a lot smaller."


Youngster,

Actually, in `63, when I first signed papers to go into the Corps, or rather my parents did, because I was only 16, and in a judge's office for multiple bad acts against the community. You might say I was a political appointment, as some number of us were back then. The times were different back then, luckily for me. I don't think I could have been the man I am today without the Marine Corps. Four days after my 17th birthday, in March 64, I arrived at PI.

They brought people into the Corps back then that would probably would not be there today. In my Platoon at PI, there was a French Canadian, Joseph Robineault, not a citzen, or a resident of the USA, and we had a DI named Sgt Guimond, who stated that he too was not a resident of the USA when he joined the Marine Corps, but also French Canadian. He taught Robineault how to speak English, as well as the rest of us helped him to understand and speak English. We had East Germans, Polish, Mexicans, South Americans, Canadians, and Philippinos all not US Residents, but in the Corps none the less.

Unfortunately, Ignorance and Youth seem to go hand in hand sometimes. You do not know all the answers, kid, sometimes you do not know all the questions. the only resrictions on some of these men were that they could not become officers, and they could not get a secret clearence for some duties, but as far as dying as a US Marine, or even becoming a US Marine, there were relatively few restrictions about from where they came from.

Back then, I think I made $58.00 a month as a private, maybe $72.00 a month, In Truth, I don't really know any longer, but it was not the career one would go into to enrich himself, and while in Vietnam, I got $8.00 a month Combat Pay, and free mail, usually written as a post card from the top of a C-Ration box. We used to ask our relatives to send stamps so as some of the other Marines that were not US Residents could write to their families in other countries. So don't tell me where these men came from that wore the Olive Drab, with the Eagle, anchor, and globe. I know damned well where they came from.

As far as being a Liberal, truthfully, I am slightly to the Right of Atilla the Hun on most issues. I favor ranchers in the SW being able to shoot drug smugglers and people smugglers (Coyotes) on the spot without prosecution for their actions, but I also favor Guest Worker Programs. After all, these people have lived on our borders for the most part for centuries, and they have always come across the borders to work the fields during the harvest seasons. Believe me, they were not making a forture in doing so, but they did it every year, and they lived in conditions that you would not want to live in, even temporarily. And, as far as farming accidents go, they were not getting any free ride, but they were putting food on the table for their families in Mexico, as well as feeding your young butt when you were still wearing diapers.

Remember, these farmers and ranchers out here are the offshoots of the people that fought off the Apache and other tribes on their own for the most part. They are the Grand sons and the Grand daughters of the Texas Rangers and the Arizona Rangers that made the frontier liveable for communities. If the government were to take some of the interference off of their backs for a year or two, they would clean up the border in no time. They know who the workers are, and who the criminals are, and they can sort them out much better than can the US Government.

As far as bringing the Marines to the border, I have not once said this was a good idea, but initiating the Mandatory US Service for 18 year olds, to get military training, but not necessarily be in the US Army, I can see something like that, if they were to assist the BP in patrols or listening posts along the border. There are other alternatives to the US Military, but a Congress without any cojones would not do that.

Come talk to me when you have gained another twenty years of experience, before you start calling someone a Liberal, kid. I have my Purple Heart with clusters and my battle awards for courage, and to ask me to show whether I am a Marine or an American, because I don't agree with you, shows true ignorance and youth on your part.

Read that Constitution that you defend about who has the protection of the Bill of Rights inside the borders of the USA. It does not state only US Citizens and Residents have the protections of the laws thereof. Being an American is more than bluster. It can be damned difficult to love and understand that Constitution, and that Flag, and for what it stands for, but I do. Try it some time.

For the record, I speak some Chinese, some Japanese, and Spanish, as well as English. It is good to learn other languages, you should try it, it makes you a more valuable person.

[USMCgrunt0331]

Let me clear up some things, 1st I didn't call you a liberal, I said most of us in the southeast weren't liberals, cause you kept referring to everyone on the entire east coast as a liberal.

Second, there's a difference between legal aliens and illegal aliens. Non US citizens who are here legally can join the military and I don't really have a problem with that, it's the illegals I have a problem with.

3rd, I'm confused, you say your basically saying everyone should be able to come here and noone should be an illegal alien and we should quit bothering the Mexicans, but then you say we should institute a mandatory service act so that we could guard our borders. Are you for or against allowing Mexicans to illegaly come here, cause your doing everything you can to defend them at the same time talking about upping our border security.

4th, I never said or questioned the fact that you are an American and Marine, oppositely, I was affirming that that's exactly what you are, and should put the fact that you are an American Marine in front of the fact that you are a minority.

5th, I never said it's not good to learn another language, you should have that option in schools and I think it can be very helpful in life, however, I am against it being forced and being made to learn spanish. I think that before you can become a US citizen you should have to become fluent in english, then it wouldn't be a problem, and legal aliens here would either have to try to become a citizen before a certain time limit of maybe a couple of years or leave.

I want you to know that I have the upmost respect and highest regards of you as a US Marine who fought in Vietnam and was injured during battle for our country. I simply just disagree with and don't understand your views on the immigration matter, and I hope you don't mistake my arguing and asking certain things about your views as disrespect, I've always been a person who argued unrelentfully for anything I believed in or had strong views about, it's the way I'll always be, I've always stood up for what I believe no matter what, and now that I'm in the Marine Corps I have a gun to back me up, LOLOL

[Joseph P Carey]

Originally posted by USMCgrunt0331
Let me clear up some things, 1st I didn't call you a liberal, I said most of us in the southeast weren't liberals, cause you kept referring to everyone on the entire east coast as a liberal.

USMCgrunt0331: Second, there's a difference between legal aliens and illegal aliens. Non US citizens who are here legally can join the military and I don't really have a problem with that, it's the illegals I have a problem with.

***Are you telling me that you know all about Marine Corps History, and that no non-US Citizen, or a non-Legal Resident are in, or were ever allowed in, the US Marine Corps?

USMCgrunt0331: 3rd, I'm confused, you say your basically saying everyone should be able to come here and noone should be an illegal alien and we should quit bothering the Mexicans, but then you say we should institute a mandatory service act so that we could guard our borders. Are you for or against allowing Mexicans to illegaly come here, cause your doing everything you can to defend them at the same time talking about upping our border security.

*** Don't get confused son, you asked what would be an alternative. I provided one.

USMCgrunt0331: 4th, I never said or questioned the fact that you are an American and Marine, oppositely, I was affirming that that's exactly what you are, and should put the fact that you are an American Marine in front of the fact that you are a minority.

*** My ethnicity is Irish-American. Last I heard, I was not listed as a Minority. They still make me mark Caucasian in that ethnic box. Although, I do get pi$sed when they ask if I am Anglo, because I am Celtic.

USMCgrunt0331: 5th, I never said it's not good to learn another language, you should have that option in schools and I think it can be very helpful in life, however, I am against it being forced and being made to learn spanish. I think that before you can become a US citizen you should have to become fluent in english, then it wouldn't be a problem, and legal aliens here would either have to try to become a citizen before a certain time limit of maybe a couple of years or leave.

*** As the rise in the population goes toward speakers of another language, which country is going to hire you to speak only to English speaking people only speaking Spanish, or Chinese, or some other language in their target populus. They only make sale by selling things, not by teaching English. You should take the initiative and learn another language on your own.

USMCgrunt0331: I want you to know that I have the upmost respect and highest regards of you as a US Marine who fought in Vietnam and was injured during battle for our country. I simply just disagree with and don't understand your views on the immigration matter, and I hope you don't mistake my arguing and asking certain things about your views as disrespect, I've always been a person who argued unrelentfully for anything I believed in or had strong views about, it's the way I'll always be, I've always stood up for what I believe no matter what, and now that I'm in the Marine Corps I have a gun to back me up, LOLOL

*** Well, I live in the West, and I have a weapon, but I also have two College degrees (History and Operations management), which arms me in ways that could surprise you. The fact that these people want to work bringing in your wheat, when others will not, or your grapes, or apples, when no one else will, for less than minimum wage in some cases, with no Medical Insurance, and no retirement or social security (You become the end user of their Social Security taxes, and you gain benefit from it), added to that the cost of their living conditions coming out of their paychecks at an exorbinant cost to them. Truthfully, if we were to rely upon Americans to go pick apples, they would rot on the trees in most instances, and the price would go through the roof. It is econimically advantagous for the Mexican worker to be in this country. Now, the guest workers could get a border pass, but it would cost than it would to feed their family for a three month period, and if you ever waited for documents from the US Government, by the time they get the border pass, the harvest season would be over.

When were you going to be picking Apples this season?

Besidses, a big strong guy like you, are you afraid that the Mexican worker is going to take your job away from you. Hell, he doesn't even speak English in many cases. I am sure that he does not have the education that you possess. What jobs have you lost to Mexican workers? Are you telling me that they know more than do you? If so, that is an indictment of your learning ability, and of our school systems, and not the Mexican worker.USMCgrunt0331 USMCGRUNT0331