Who's the greatest baseball player ever?

[thedrifter]

Who's the greatest baseball player ever?
The truth may hurt, but some things just really need to be said

By Cory Franklin
a physician at Stroger Hospital
Published March 18, 2005


With the approach of Opening Day, Barry Bonds is poised to hit his 715th home run, surpassing Babe Ruth on the way to Henry Aaron's lifetime record of 755. To old-schoolers' chagrin, Bonds has been somewhat less than charitable (and less than grammatical) in speaking of Ruth: "As a left-hand hitter I wiped him out. I got his slugging percentage and I'll take his home runs. Don't talk about him no more." Not to worry, Barry, memories of Babe dim as the ranks of those who saw him play, or even recall him, dwindle daily.

Without belaboring his obtuseness or steroid use, it is impossible to deny Barry Bonds his place in baseball history or diminish his accomplishments. Besides hitting home runs and compiling stratospheric slugging and on-base percentages, he has been a superb fielder most of his career. His performance after age 35, baseball dotage for most, is unprecedented. A hypothetical team of baseball's greatest players at each position would likely include Bonds as the starting left fielder, ahead of two immortals, Ty Cobb and Ted Williams.

Some have called him the greatest player of all time. But that designation unarguably goes to the player Bonds disparaged--the most complete player ever--Babe Ruth. The reason is simply that, unlike Bonds and every other great hitter, Babe was also one of baseball's greatest pitchers.

How good a hitter was Ruth? He notched 700 home runs in fewer at bats than Bonds or Aaron. When he hit his 700th, he was alone--no one was within 200 home runs. One year he hit as many home runs as the league's next three players combined. A comparable performance today would be hitting 140 to 150 home runs in a season. In eight World Series performances as a Yankee outfielder, he helped win five Series and set the record for lifetime Series home runs (broken three decades later by Mickey Mantle).

Many contemporary baseball historians are quick to point out that because of baseball's shameful history of segregation, Ruth accumulated his home run totals in an all-white sport. Yet integration of baseball during Ruth's time would not necessarily have diminished his home-run totals. Negro League Baseball's strength during Ruth's heyday in the 1920s was position players; the weakest aspect was pitching. Most of the great black pitchers, including Satchel Paige, Leon Day and Hilton Smith, came along in the 1930s, when Ruth's career was nearly over. Had the Negro Leagues been incorporated into the Major Leagues a generation earlier, the effect might have been similar to that generally seen with expansion--dilution of pitching and inflation of most hitting statistics including home runs. In an integrated Major Leagues, Ruth and others might plausibly have hit more, not fewer home runs.

Were Ruth's numbers inflated because of diluted competition or does he deserve more credit because he played in a relatively dead ball era when players traveled for days on trains and lacked the training facilities and luxuries available today? Conversely, are Bonds' numbers inflated because of better equipment and pharmacologic enhancement or does he deserve more credit for hitting against better pitchers and playing under media scrutiny and pressure unknown to past generations ? Who was the better hitter, Ruth or Bonds? The answer is blowing in the wind (of old Candlestick Park).

What is largely forgotten is that Ruth could have been the best left-handed pitcher of his generation had he not become an outfielder. In Major League history, he is the only pitcher to pitch at least 10 years and have a winning record in each one. Before age 25, he had already won 90 games and an earned-run-average title; it would not be a stretch to project 300 wins, the benchmark for truly great pitchers. In two World Series as a Red Sox pitcher, he helped win both (Boston's last before the Johnny Damon era) and set the pitching record for consecutive scoreless innings (broken four decades later by Edward "Whitey" Ford).

The best ballplayer ever? The definitive answer comes from another pretty fair left-fielder, Hall of Famer Stan Musial, who once explained that when everyone starts out in Little League, it's clear who the best player on the team is--the kid who bats third and pitches. And he pointed out in the whole history of Major League Baseball, with all the guys who ever played, there has been only one player who could do that--Babe Ruth.

So good luck on your home run odyssey, Barry. But if you aspire to be the greatest baseball player ever, better start working on that curve ball.


Ellie

[OLE SARG]

bonds is a psuedo-intellect, big-feeling, egotistical, chemically induced thing. bonds is a legend in his own feeble mind.

It is indeed sad that our youngsters coming up today have to see all the things a good athlete should not be in bonds.

The baseball strike did away with ANY respect I had for baseball and its players. They were a bunch of cry-babys during the strike and I think one of the knuckleheaded players made the dumbass statement, "I can't live on seven million dollars a year." Is that a dumbass or what!!!!!!!!!!!!!! A bunch of crying millionaires is all they are and ever will be. Baseball could go belly-up and I wouldn't miss any of it.

My 2 cents worth!!

SEMPER FI,
OLE SARG

[Osotogary]

The greatest baseball player ever may not even be in the Hall of Fame. He may be that player that took the time to sign an autograph for you when you were a kid or maybe had a beer with you at a social function.
My favorite time watching and enjoying baseball was when the SF Seals were part of the Pacific Coast League. Saw some real good ball played by players that were trying like heck to get to the Majors. Of course getting to see the game using a coupon off of the milk carton helped.
Aside from all of the above, Willie Mays was, for me the best player that I ever saw play the game.

[marinemom]

Definitely agree with Old Sarge - and since I lost my team on September 24, 1957, I must admit that baseball has held little interest for me since then.

But, my vote would go to Ted Williams - and imagine what his numbers would have been if he hadn't lost 3 years during WWII and another year during Korea flying those Marine Corsairs!

[USMC-FO]

Ditto ... Ted Williams

And he did all he did without sticking a needle in his ass.....

[eddief]

Willie Mays is the greatest- the complete package.

[Sgtj]

ummm, Ted Williams.. He 's a MARINE!

[Bonka]

Gotta be Hank Aaron. Not only did he set the home run record but he did it in a time period where the opposing pitchers were among the best that baseball ever had. Gibson,Drysdale, Koufax, Seaver, etc. Teddy Ballgame was and will always be a Marine but let's not forget that he was a reluctant one.

[thedrifter]

It’s the Bottom of the Ninth and America Steps to the Plate

March 18, 2005


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by Frank Salvato

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It was quite the site to behold. There they sat; McGwire, Sosa, Schilling, Palmeiro, some of today’s superstars of baseball and quite possibly tomorrow’s Hall of Famers. But this moment wasn’t about double-plays or RBIs, and instead of home or away jerseys they were wearing pinstripes of the Brooks Brothers variety. These icons of the diamond – along with Frank Thomas who joined them by teleconference and Jose Canseco who sat shunned at the end of the table – were subpoenaed by the United States Congress to talk about steroid abuse in Major League Baseball. A disturbing thought for a couple of different reasons.

Normally when I see California Congressman Henry Waxman in front of a television camera I automatically assume that the “showboat” is preparing to leave the dock. Quite frankly, I don’t think there’s a cause that Waxman believes can’t be furthered along through congressional legislation. So the issue of steroid abuse in America’s pass-time and Waxman seemed a perfect fit. But the giants of baseball – and not the ones from San Francisco – didn’t give Waxman anything to work with. In fact, several times during the hearings members of the committee – professional politicians – commented on how “politician-like” some of the answers were.

Rafael Palmeiro came right out and denied he used steroids as did Frank Thomas, and Curt Schilling. Mark McGwire pulled a ‘Condit’ and ducked the question on the advice of his lawyers. And it was hard to tell what Sammy Sosa wanted to convey. I was actually waiting for him to lean into the microphone and say, “Baseball has been very, very good to me.”

While one can speculate about the possibility that Jose Canseco clandestinely lobbied for the hearings in an effort to promote his tell-all book about the steroids scandal (he contends it involved 80% of the players at one time), one didn’t have to speculate about how his fellow panel members felt about him. Mark McGwire was most blatant about it alluding to the fact that Canseco was a “convicted criminal” and he urged the congressmen to “consider the source.”

Perhaps the only real information was disseminated through what was not said. Whenever the questions came close to having anything to do with whether or not he had known anything about anyone, anywhere at any time knowing anything about steroids Mark McGwire responded in one of two ways, he either stated that he was now “retired” or that he “didn’t want to talk about the past.” Conventional wisdom mandates that if one is going to conduct an investigation as to whether there was ever steroid abuse in baseball one would have to talk about the past. His refusal to be candid didn’t bode well for McGwire or baseball.

I know it sounds as if I am coming down hard on those who were subpoenaed to testify before the House Government Reform Committee and perhaps I am a bit dismayed that they would be less than forthright with the truth. Then again, I should have expected as much, what with the world of litigation we live in today. In their defense, all of them sans Canseco – and Thomas due to the fact that his telecommunications link was terminated after his very brief statement – pledged to do “what ever it takes” to combat steroid use, not only among their peers in professional baseball but among the youth of our nation as well. They all agreed to be on an official committee to extol the dangers of steroid use. McGwire even said that he would direct a large amount of his foundation’s resources to achieve the goal of steroid-free sports in America. So, to that extent they should be applauded although we should really wait and see just how involved they are with the efforts.

But, with all the excitement, the American people have been distracted from the larger issue. While any mention of the evils of steroids draws the camera lights and the Blackberries of the mainstream media, especially when you get four potential Baseball Hall of Fame members and Jose Canseco in the same room, the real issue is whether these hearings should have been held at all.

Major League Baseball, aside from being submissive to anti-trust laws, is basically a private enterprise. Teams are privately owned, either by individuals, consortiums or corporations and they employ contracts. In a nutshell, baseball is a business…big business. And just like anything else in the private sector, we need to wonder just how far we are willing to allow government to overlord. If steroid use is forbidden in a player’s contract and he is caught using them the matter should be one of contract law and not congressional legislation. Further, if the use of steroids is illegal then the matter should be remanded to the same legal system to which we are all bound. If a contract has been broken there are ramifications. If a law has been broken there are consequences. Why Congress thinks it has the authority to call “for further review” is questionable. Besides, instant replay in baseball is a disturbing thought.

While the Waxman’s of the world would be quite pleased to create legislation to counter every problem, relegating any semblance of personal responsibility to the ash heap of time, we have to ask ourselves, as a nation, do we really need the government to force us to do what we know is right? Have we come to a moment where the words “self restraint” mean absolutely nothing?

Steroids, used outside of medical supervision, are dangerous. They cause cancer and lend themselves to shortening human life. Their short term advantages lose out to the long term disadvantages of death. This is common sense. I don’t know which is a more frightening, the fact that multi-millionaire baseball players and their organizations can’t figure out that steroids are dangerous or that we are unwittingly allowing our government to legislate common sense.

It’s the bottom of the ninth. The score is tied. There are two outs and America steps up to the plate…

Related Reading:

McGwire Says He Won't 'Name Names'

http://www.cnn.com/2005/ALLPOLITICS/03/17/steroids.baseball/index.html

Ellie

[booksbenji]

:marine:

Don Drydales, Mickey Mantle, Our MARINE TED WILLIAMS, Jackie Robinson, Roger Maris, Sandy Kofax, the heros of the 50's, 60's, the 70'd and the 80's. They have retired, gone to the BIg BASEBALL DIAMOND IN THE SKY and in our collective memory. Pls bring the BROOKLYN DODGERS, THE ST. LOUIS CARDINALS, and all of the old good honset baseballs heros.


Semper Fi

books :marine:

[MillRatUSMC]

What the tape that we're measuring greatness?
Or what the criteria?
Most home runs, most stolen bases, highest average, best throwing arm or a player able to make the average play look great.
We're not even talking pitching.
Than we have to take the era that they played in.
Also do they have to be in the Baseball Hall of Fame?
I was fortunated to have seen Ernie Banks as a Cub.
Ted Williams gave up to serve in the Marine Corps,
Years later, he took great pride on being a MARINE.
No on stealing home, he didn't have to do that, he was a HITTER!

Semper Fidelis/Semper Fi
Ricardo

[Lock-n-Load]

:marine: They claim the sport of baseball is our National pastime; then, Ted Williams is in a class by himself...for all his heroics at Fenway Park from 1940 to 1955 [including 2 wartime periods of service: WW2 & Korea]...I saw Ted play the game in Boston, he was a positive among a sea of negative media detracters...Ted personafies the true baseball icon that he truly was...it's on video tape where he was asked what he was most proud of in his lifetime...he replied [if I may paraphrase], "My service to my country in wartime as a US Marine combat pilot and the fact that I was a US Marine is the high point of my existence"...Ted had everything, Hollywood looks, outspoken, confident and a "hero" when America used to have heroes...he even looked great striking out, the few times that happened...yes, Ted is my choice and I'm in agreement with others in here...I loved the "Babe" too, but the Bambino wasn't a US Marine. Semper Fi, Marines:marine:

[thedrifter]

Congress, the Courts and Baseball

March 18, 2005


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by Lisa Fabrizio

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While attempting to enjoy NCAA conference tournament action this weekend, in between bouts of averting my eyes to avoid the barrage of promos for ESPN‘s thug-fest called “Tilt,” a sudden ‘special report’ screamed, “Mark McGwire linked to steroid probe!” The reaction in the restaurant where I watched was akin to that of reports earlier in the week that Michael Jackson had dressed and acted bizarrely in court: Pass the pretzels please.

That behemoths have been quaffing or injecting performance-enhancing and mass-building substances is news only to those who believe that Pete Rose never bet on baseball. Most fans of the game though, have looked the other way—as have the lords of baseball themselves—in a sort of ‘boys will be boys’ mode, enjoying the sight of massive clouts climbing high into the sky and over the wall.

And now, wielding considerable clout of their own, the U.S. Congress has weighed into the question of steroid abuse via the House Government Reform Committee’s investigation of same. Called onto the congressional carpet are seven active and former players as well as four league officials. Questions are likely to be directed toward the extent of steroid use and the effectiveness of Major League Baseball’s testing procedures.

My first reaction was, of course, that the government should keep its ever-stickier fingers out of the private sector. The second was that Congress was once again honing its own particular version of grandstanding; endless rounds of high-minded but ultimately useless questioning designed to gin up campaign support and promote face time.

But when you consider that baseball is the only professional sport that operates with near total impunity from antitrust laws and that the Committee has oversight responsibility for federal drug policy, then maybe it’s time that the real DC Nats step up to the plate. It is this exemption that, among other things, allows MLB to move or eliminate teams in baseball-poor cities and thus allows the owners of those teams to beg taxpayer-funded stadiums and bailouts in order to remain.

It is interesting to note that baseball’s antitrust exemption, when adjudicated by the Supreme Court in 1922, was a wonderful example of the Court using a very narrow interpretation of the now all-inclusive commerce clause. Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes, Jr. wrote:

“As it is put by defendant, personal effort, not related to production, is not a subject of commerce. That which in its consummation is not commerce does not become commerce among the States because the transportation that we have mentioned takes place. To repeat the illustrations given by the Court below, a firm of lawyers sending out a member to argue a case, or the Chautauqua lecture bureau sending out lecturers, does not engage in such commerce because the lawyer or lecturer goes to another State.”

When a subsequent challenge arose in 1953, the Court, in upholding the earlier ruling actually wrote, "We think that if there are evils in this field which now warrant application of it to the antitrust laws, it should be by legislation." What a radical idea. That the judicial branch should not only recognize that their role was not to write law, but to say so, sounds especially revolutionary today.

So if we reluctantly conclude that government has an interest in the possible reconsideration of baseball’s antitrust exemption, the next question is, if the players and officials are given immunity in return for their testimony, what does Congress hope to accomplish in compelling them to appear?

If, as many suspect, that steroid use is still rampant in baseball due to the toothless testing policy agreed to last year by the owners and the players ‘union’, Congress can once again threaten to hold their exemption hostage in exchange for some real results.

And, while Congress cannot use its power to curb the look-at-me preening, incessant hot-dogging and general misbehavior of some bad apples, it can and probably should try and influence the game’s drug enforcement policy. Corny or not, the truth is that even Congress, like most Americans, still holds baseball in esteem as the national pastime and believes that its players represent role models to the youth of this country.

And for those who don’t think that children see these men as role models, consider the growing use of steroids in high school; recall the showboating of the 2002 Little League World Series team from Harlem, or better yet, take a ride over to your own local ballfield.

Lisa Fabrizio

Ellie

[lucien2]

Ty Cobb or Ted Williams.

[HardJedi]

they still play baseball? ah well, it will soon follow hockey.