Requirement of being a swimmer

[hrscowboy]

Due to the recent drowning of a recruit do you think the Marine Corps should make a requirement that you must be able to swim before entrance to bootcamp. The press reported that this recruit advised his drill instructor that he could not swim. unfortunately this young man drowned now The Marine Corps is possibly looking at a wrongful death suit... How say you Marines..

[HardJedi]

lord. what kinda wierdo can't swim anyway? and then to go and join an AMPHIBIOUS assault branch of the military.

HELLO ! Marines travel by ship alot!

hell, all the recruits who had to witness this kids death should be able to sue HIS family for subjecting them to his stupidity.


Don't get me wrong, I am sorry the kid died and all, honestly, but if you CANNOT do something (like swim) join the army of air force!. Though I am sure they probably have swim qual as well.

I don't know. Guess I'm just in a grumpy mood this morning, but he HAD to know that there was a swimming part of bootcamp, and therefore he KNOWINGLY put himself in that situation. That means to me he accepted responsibility for his own actions, therefore it is no ones fault but his own.

[yellowwing]

There are already basic height to weight standards to enlist. Recruiters already ensure that poolees are reasonably and basically physical fit.

Why not require basic swimming? It would take time to gear it up, but a Partnership with the Red Cross swim program would look good to the national and local public.

It would lower the drop rate for recruits that just cannot swim qual. It must be expensive as hell to keep a recruit in training all the way to swim qual, then see them dropped.

[Sgted]

My experience in the pool was intimidating.
I wasen't a good swimmer, but the training made me a better one.
They just don't throw a recruit in the pool and let him drown. These men are skilled at watching those who are weak swimmers and get them to find it in themselves to be better swimmers.
In the process there is the intimidation, shouting and humiliation associated in getting the recruit to do his best.

As Jedi said, any young man who is considering joining the Corps is well aware of what he might face.

I have heard that this recruit joined to earn money for college.
I know alot of young people do this, but it should not be the core of the decision you make to join the Marines.
Especially during times of war.

I don't think anything should be changed. It's worked for years. If we change the rules then we are bowing to the PC crowd. There have been few drownings in the pool at PI.
Last one was in 1991.

[jinelson]

I remember when we were at the pool on the navy side at MCRDSD. The first order of business was to seperate the swimmers from the non swimmers and the non's were terrrified. I think it would be be very prudent to require that a recruit poolee be a certified swimmer up front. It would eleminate a whole lotta heart ache all the way around.

[Old Marine]

This swimming thing used to be called "Drownproofing" when I got on the Drill Field in 1966. That is just what it was. Recruits were taught how not to drown. They did not have to be able to swim to perform these actions. There were many who were afraid of the water, but they did qualify. When you look at the ratio of drownings and the ratio of qualifiers, its amazing. This kid that drowned could have had a heart attack and dropped dead while marching to the pool.

[hrscowboy]

yep we never had to swim it was jump off the side of that damn tower and and start making bladders from the shirts and your pants to stay afloat for an hour but swimming was not part of the agenda (like swimming laps)

[Sgted]

Circa 1965
In addition to having to jump off that tower which was part of our confidence course we had to go through "drownproofing" as mentioned by Old Marine.
Training for drownproofing was performed at the pool at PI.
You had to jump in the pool fully dressed, with full gear and a rifle. You were to keep yourself afloat. The time required for you to qualify escapes me, but it was not long.
I do remember there being a few recruits being trained away from the main part of the platoon because of their fear or inability to swim. It was obvious that a few of these recruits were having a real hard time but there were many able bodied people there to prevent a drowning.
I don't know if I agree with jinelson's thoughts on all poolees needing to be certified up front.
When you think of the thousands and thousands of Marines of varying water abilities going through this type of training without incident it just seems a moot point.

[devildawg5811]

I don't think that it needs to be a requirement before shipping to boot camp. I was a **** poor swimmer when I went to boot camp. The DI's trained me to swim and survive in water, just like they trained me to use my rifle and to drill. By the time I was a LCPL, I was WSQ, thanks in no part to the swim instructor's threatening to kill me if I got out of the pool. The swim instructor that day was, coincidently, my watch commander. I decided it would hurt less to drown trying for the best. I made the best.

While it is terrible that this poor kid didn't make the best, is it the DI's fault for trying to motivate him? I don't frickin' think so. Failure lies at the individual level.

[Sgted]

Originally posted by devildawg5811

While it is terrible that this poor kid didn't make the best, is it the DI's fault for trying to motivate him? I don't frickin' think so. Failure lies at the individual level.

In the video it is obvious that the instructor did nothing to cause enough harm to the recruit that resulted in Pvt Tharp drowning the NEXT day.
It will be quite interesting to see the results of 3 investigations.

[Matt Starbuck]

In bootcamp, just when you thought it was safe to go to the pool in the middle of summer you find the Corps has found a way to make it another exercise in mind over matter.

I agree with Yellowwing, the costs of dropping a recruit and the drop in public opinion would make it a no brainer. We should require certication in basic swim qualification by an outside company like Red Cross, YMCA, or whoever.

[devildawg5811]

Sgted

I think there may have been a misunderstanding... I absolutely do NOT think that the Drill Instructor is at fault for causing the recruit's death. It appears to me that the recruit failed to follow the "arm's distance" law. The slight shove given caused no harm.

And you're right, it'll be interesting to see how the investigations go. Hopefully the Drill Instructors are not offered up to the media as sacrificial goats.

[Lock-n-Load]

:marine: The Korean War was raging...2 wks into "Boot" our DIs laughingly marched us to the Base Pool for swimming qualification...they shouted, "All you clowns who can't swim will drown tonite"...I laughed to myself knowing I could swim OK...it was a huge heated pool... in relays of 6 recruits in echelon were order to dive into the deep/end and swim the length of the pool to the shallow end [ 50 yds up/back ]...those of us who could swim were quickly separated from the non/swimmers and marched happily back to our barracks...I can still recall the yowling asylum going on in the pool area, as some of the recruits were literary thrown into the water, screaming like men about to die, one kid fought off 4 swimming instructors cursing at the top of his lungs...he had no intention of getting into the water...they spead eagled this kid and carried him to the top of a 40 ft platform over the deep/end [16ft of water below]...we all watched as they dropped him, and he sank right to the bottom and stayed there...several swim/instructors dove in and brought him to the surface...the kid was screaming his lungs out, but they kept him afloat best they could trying to teach him to tread water...those of us lucky ones who had no fear of drowning were marched back to our barracks...when about 10 boots who couldn't swim later, returned to the barracks, they were unmerciful berated and wacked around by all of our DIs...we never dared get into what was going on out of fear...we even sort of shunned the non/swimmwers as they had to go back for a few more nites to try and qualify as swimmers...ohh, one other bit of intel...to those who did go into the water and started sinking, a swimming instructor would insert a 10 ft bamboo pole towards the water-logged kid so he could surface and try to learn to be bouyant and gain a semblence of confidence that he wouldn't sink...each nite the kids who were still unqualified caught holy hell on earth from the relentless physical abuse of the DIs, who demanded 100% of their Boots to qualify...only one kid eventually didn't qualify and he was swiftly put back to another boot platoon...it was like I said, a deafening, crazy nut/house at the Base Pool in those days, BUT no one ever drowned, thanks to swimming instructors who did their job attentively; plus, being aware of what was going on about them...that's the way the Corps was during the Korean War years...then, a future combat Marine had to have no weaknesses!!...I love the spartan US Marine Corps and all it ingrains into it's young hard-chargers...Gung-F-Ho :marine:

[jryanjack]

The Corps being what it is, with its close association with water, its a no brainer that a recruit should know how to swim before going to boot camp. This is a known, not an unknown. Growing up on the coast, a stones throw from the ocean, I've always known how to swim, but if I didn't, or didn't swim well, that's something that I would rectify prior to going to boot camp. Just like getting yourself in physical and mental condition for boot camp, if you can't swim you should learn - prior. Its really that simple.

The Corps is not the army - we're always near the water. Look at it this way - the army and Marines both fly some of the same helos, what't the major difference - Marine helos always have 2 engines, why? If you are over water and lose 1 engine you have another to get you home, the army helos (cobra's and hueys) only have 1 engine, lose that over water and you're done!

[hrscowboy]

Well gentlemen i believe with what the world is today with everyone sueing everyone for every little thing Our Marine Corps needs protect itself alittle more on possible wrongful death suits.
I agree with most of you that it should be a requirement that a person should be a qualified swimmer before he or she is even allowed to hit bootcamp. I have seen where several poolies have been doing things with the recruiters before leaving and maybe this should be one of them. The Marine Corp today is not the Marine Corp i was in the late 60s and 70s, Those days are over and regardless if a recruit is what someone called the arms distance law its still against policy to strike or assault another human being regardless who it is. I am not saying this because i got my arse whipped everyday alot of us did but those days are over and its time the Marine Corp protected its self alot better... if a recruit speaks out and says hes done then that recruit should be taken to a casual platoon and released from the Marine Corps with in a matter of days no matter what the costs of the Tax payers hell gentlemen where paying for so much other bull crap that i as a tax payer would rather put this young man or woman out before anything could happen to them. I dont like the idea of My Marine Corp being under investigation of a wrongful death because someone made a recruit jump in a pool of water that he was afraid of. Its better to rid the problem then try to fix it anymore.. enuff said..

[Arc Light]

I feel that the kid's recruiter should be the one who gets hung out to dry...and ban news crews from training areas. This kid was better suited for the Air Force, and the Corps should have a stance of "He came to us...we didn't force him to sign his enlistment papers."

[rfw1028]

Recruit training is just the beginning of a continuing series of training experiences that include varying degrees of risk. While those risks are well understood by the instructors, it is unrealistic to expect the risks to be eliminated completely. Every year Marines are killed and injured during training and while engaged in off-duty recreational pursuits. The Marine Corps can no more guarantee my safety on duty than I can guarantee my own safety while off-duty. The Marine Corps has an admirable rate of returning training and combat participants to their loved ones. The other services frequently attempt to emulate Corps practices and doctrine in an effort to do as well. We all feel the loss of this young man, but we will never eliminate casualties in combat or training.

[jinelson]

Arc Light said: I feel that the kid's recruiter should be the one who gets hung out to dry...and ban news crews from training areas. This kid was better suited for the Air Force, and the Corps should have a stance of "He came to us...we didn't force him to sign his enlistment papers."


__________________

That was exactly what went through my mind when I head the tragic news. This poor young man would have been very easily spotted through the simple routine questioning in the initial recruitment process.

[TopMarinesMC]

Really this training is not swimming, it is drown proofing. You do not need to know how to swim to do this. It helps, and also it helps not to have a fear of the water. I do believe that maybe that it would be better if the recruit is required to designate that they can swim before signing the papers.

I taught this course in Hawaii and while in the reserve for requals. Of course the stress of boot camp is not there and we did not put that much pressure. Coming off a "mike" boat with full grear (you would know if taken the amphious warfare training), you do not end up on the beach most of the time and you will sink coming off the boat. Having the training will give you the confidence to get to the beach alive.