Conversation with an Officer

[lien0102]

There was an USMC Officer Recruiter at my college today so I stopped by to introduce myself and say hello. We talked for awhile about the Marine Corps and he said that no matter how bad things are when a Marine is on active duty - all Marine Officers always look back on their time happily and most Marines do too... I was just wondering what you Marines thought of this Officer/Enlisted point of view. Also he referred to Marine Officers and Marines - is that distinction always made? I've only met a few Officers so I don't know much about them.

Thanks

Pat

[Pel]

I cant give advice on this because there are others out there that will give it better justice. But lets just say that I am going to Earn the title of Marine.

Pel

[THATFEMALE]

The fleet is what you make of it. If you choose to be miserable and hang around the misguided leathernecks then of course you're going to have a bad time. I love the corp and I've seen both sides of it but it's up to you. I think maybe you appreciate your time more once you get out. I don't know I'm a "Career Marine." While both have earned the tittle there is a big difference between officers and enlisted. I don't want to offend anyone but if you earn the tittle you'll see. Officers who have been enlisted at one time or another provide the best info.

[Patty_McOorah]

I had a Lt. that when he got out after his contract was up, he confessed to us that he wished he had become an enlisted marine. There is definately a difference between the enlisted side and the officer's corps, but you still both hold the same title. We just have more fun on the enlisted side. Oh, and if you claim that you want to be a "Career Marine", stay in the fleet and stray away fromt he MSG program.

[yellowwing]

Officers are trained to Lead from day 1. They have higher standards amongst themselves.

We are truly Devil Dogs. Our enemies' worst nightmare! It takes a rare quality to lead us.

Officers have the priviledge to lead us. And the responsiblility to do it effectively. They do it mostly by example.

One Sea Tale was that the First Recon Commanding Officer completed 3 full PFTs with only a 5 minutes to rest in between. He scored a perfect 300 every time.

From what I observed in my few months inside (not at) the Base Head Quarters Battalion, they are always 'On'.

[mrbsox]

Echo's of 'yellowwing'...

I do feel Marine officers are held to a higher standard, both by their superiors, and by themselves.
Are they PERFECT... no. And I think a GOOD Officer will tell you that, but not in front of 'the troops'.

Are they reffered to differently (Marine vs. Marine Officer) was the question..
I think it depends on the context of the reference, and to some extent, the arrogance of the Officer.

Terry

[HardJedi]

Hmnnn, toughie, without letting some of my bad feelings about some officers out.

There is a HUGE difference betwenn and enlisted marine, and a Marine officer.

I have to agree, that for the most part, Marine officers tend to always be "on" They have to be. A Marine officer with a bad fitrep, even ONE less than outstanding on it, as far as I know, is DONE. he will not be promoted( at least, thats what I always heard, so don't take that as gospel) while and enlisted Marine, depending on the mistake he/she made, can recover from it and go on to have a very nice career.

The few Officers I was around enough to get to actually know, always confided in me that they wish they had gone enlisted. ( two different 2nd LT's)

A Marine officer is pretty limited in the friends they can make in the Corps. Just an example here. Say there are roughly100 guys in a company. 4 of them are officers, the rest enlisted. Officers can only hang out with other officers off-duty. So if the other three in your company are jerks, you are probably gonna get pretty lonley. Meanwhile, the enlisted guy will probably have between 70-80 other pvt-lcpl's to choose from to make friends ( NCO's are not supposed to really hang with people other than of thier rank either)


That is one of the reasons I got out. I did not want to be promoted again, and lose a large friend base.

Maybe thats silly of me, but to me, friends are VERY important.

[MillRatUSMC]

The question was asked;
What Marines point of view on Officer/Enlisted Marines?

Its a double edge sword, without Enlisted Marines, there would be no need for Marine Officers to lead those Enlisted Marines.
Many Marine Officers have wrote on this matter, that it was a "privilege" to lead Marines in battle, be they Officers or Enlisted.
Command is a heavy responsibilty, that Marine Officers have to carry.
I have a couple of "friendships" with Marine Officers, but I still know my place.
The first word out my mouth is "Sir or Ma-am", it would not do, to address them by their first name.
From the first day in boot camp or OCS, Marines are being trained to be able to lead if the need araises.
Are Marines Officers always perfect?
No! some have fallen in holding to the high standards of leadership.
Some have proven that the mantle of leadership in combat, was too heavy for them.
The botton line, we can all claim to be Marines!
Nothing more, nothing less.

Semper Fidelis/Semper Fi
Ricardo

[bigwalt]

Originally posted by Patty_McOorah
I had a Lt. that when he got out after his contract was up, he confessed to us that he wished he had become an enlisted marine. There is definately a difference between the enlisted side and the officer's corps, but you still both hold the same title. We just have more fun on the enlisted side. Oh, and if you claim that you want to be a "Career Marine", stay in the fleet and stray away fromt he MSG program. :devious:

Patty McOorah,

I don't know who you are and I respect your opinion BUT I had an OUTSTANDING time on the MSG program. If you would have replied to my pm to you about the picture you posted I could tell you about them. I was in Bucharest in 96-97. I met my wife there and I have two wonderful childern. Like a post said before you make of it what you will. I have heard that there were problems there but adapt and overcome. Make the Marines proud and bring back the respect the for the Marines through the State Department's eyes. If you need any advice or want to anything about Bucharest let me know.

[Koble_USMC]

Originally posted by Pel
I cant give advice on this because there are others out there that will give it better justice. But lets just say that I am going to Earn the title of Marine.

Pel


I really cant believe that you, a poolee, can have such disrespect for people that you dont even know. Its one thing for a SSGT or a Gunny to say something like that, because they have earned quite a bit in their careers. But you, your not even a Marine yet. I hope you drop this attitude of yours before boot camp. And here is the deal, since you obviously dont have any idea what you are talking about, the selection process for a Marine Officer is even more difficult than that of an enlisted Marine. I am not saying that is it is harder to be an officer than it is to be enlisted because I have only seen one side of the spectrum. Yeah, our OCS is only 6 wks long compared to the 13 wks of hell you will be going through, but think about this. Our Drill Instructors are able to stick it too future officers for those 6 wks. You dont think that they take advantage of this opportunity? Well let me tell you they do. Try being in charge of a company of 200 of your peers while you have 10 Drill Instructors screaming at your face and you are sitting there trying to accomplish a mission. All of this with only 3 hrs of sleep because you had firewatch and a two tests to study for. Keeping in mind that if you fail this billet as a Company Commander, you will be kicked out of the program. Dont bite the hand that feeds you.......



LT

[brettt]

Sir,
Just for some clarification for everyone about OCS, the total of the core training is 10 weeks.
You can go for 10 straight or two summers of 6 weeks a piece.(college in between) The additional 2 weeks for the two summers is due to in processing twice instead of once.

Also, not that i should talk because i will be commisioned May 20, 2005, hence not yet a Marine. I thought we "poolees" were not allowed to post.

In my eyes, enlisted and officer are both Marines, period! Each side is different, but one is no better than the other. Same title...I have also heard that your experience in the Corps is what you make of it.

~Brett

[sm@@thrider]

Do we need officers to lead others? Thats why we have NCO's they lead just the way it should be, do you need a college degree to lead? I have sent alot of men through boot camp with degree's but alot know that its more fun to be enlisted.

[brettt]

I am curious and want to learn as much as possible before i get out in FMF. How do the NCO's lead? Are they that much different from the Officer's leadership, or is there more respect soley because they are enlisted? What makes the enlisted side "more fun?"

Ductus Exemplo
Brett

[vfm]

My Advice Talk to a Warrant Officer.
SEMPER FI!!!
vfm

[mrbsox]

Originally posted by brettt
I am curious and want to learn as much as possible before i get out in FMF. How do the NCO's lead? Are they that much different from the Officer's leadership, or is there more respect soley because they are enlisted? What makes the enlisted side "more fun?"

Ductus Exemplo
Brett

2 cents worth...

Respect for Enlisted vs Officers;

NCO's tend to be reverered as leaders by 'the troops' for 2 main reasons, in my humble opinion.
1) They are the immediate superior, next in the chain of command
2) They are there and interact directly, daily, one on one, with the troops

All of this means that they know you, and you know them. Famaliarity breeds response to orders DIFFERENTLY than does simple authority, as in a DIRECT order vs. a Lawful order.

Officers tend to have 2 stigma's (sp??) against them, once again in my humble opinion.
1) Officers , by their roll and other duties, lead from afar, as a general rule.
2) 2nd Lt's. have a 'carma' of inability attached to them
Nicknames like 'ButterBar' and 'Shave Tail' come to mind.

This 'carma' comes from rumor's about OTHER 2nd Lt's, and sheer inexperiance. Like jokes about Lawers and Sharks...
"What's the difference between a 2nd Lt. and a P.F.C. ??"
The P.F.C. has been promoted

I agree that it may NOT be just, or fair, but it exists none the less. Officers have a harder time EARNING respect from the men. Partly because of #1 above, partly due to influence from NCO's and Staff NCO's 'degrading' orders and such. The Lt. would issue a DIRECT order to the Plt. Sgt. He/She would then carry out the order. HOW that is done plays a role in the troops respecting the officer.

LT:
"Sgt, erect a flag pole on this spot"

Sgt to the troops:
"Men, we need to erect a flag pole here. That is our current mission. Let's get it done, and done right"
OR
"OK guys, that new Fkn shavetail of a Louie wants a d@mn flag pole put up. Don't fkn ask me why, just do it. That's an order"

Can you see the MAJOR roll that NCO's and Staff NCO's play in a troops respect level, and perception of Officers ??

By the time an Officer reaches Captain, he has pretty well overcome both of the above (I could give an exception from personal experiance).

Hope this makes sense.

[HardJedi]

Originally posted by brettt
I am curious and want to learn as much as possible before i get out in FMF. How do the NCO's lead? Are they that much different from the Officer's leadership, or is there more respect soley because they are enlisted? What makes the enlisted side "more fun?"

Ductus Exemplo
Brett


ok, heres MY stab at it. the lower ranks tend to think more of Senior NCO's than 2nd Lts at any rate for ONE reason. Just think about it. who would YOU rather listen to? a man or woman with 10-20 years or REAL expierience, or a 23-25 year old kid who just got out of school, and thinks everything is done by the book?

In my time I served under 6 different platoon commanders. 3 2nd Lts, 2 1st Lts, and 1 Cpt.

I'll be honest here, 2 of the three 2nd Lts got no respect, cause it all had to be THIER way, and thier way NOW! this was in direct conflict usually of the SOPs of the unit. they wanted to change EVERYTHING, and it seemed to us, just so they could leave thier mark on thier platoon.

Want the advice of a lowly Cpl if you are gonna be a brand new 2nd lt in an infantry unit? In public, YOU and ONLY you are in charge. Behind closed doors? listen to what your platoon Sgt has to say. They have been there and done it, and they generally know the minds of the troops.

as far as what makes the enlisted side more fun?

well, I said it before, you have more opportunity for making closer and more friends, and honestly, you are not watched NEARLY as closley as officers are. Just my .02

[Pel]

After reading all of those posts, and from my own experience, I still stick with what I said or I wouldnt have said it. When I first wrote it I was looking at it with the frame of mind of, Both are Marines, Both have earned it. But than after reading the post by the Lt. let me change it to I would rather be enlisted anyday. "And here is the deal, since you obviously dont have any idea what you are talking about," Maybe that was what I was talking about. Good day, Sir.

Pel

[Koble_USMC]

There in lies the problem (not trying to go against what you said mrbsox because your points are extremely valid) but with orders, whether you like the order or not, should become your own as it goes down the chain. In the flag pole example, the NCO should say things the first way that mrbsox stated. This makes the order the NCO's as well. The LT may be following orders from above, but he makes the order his. When you issue orders, you cannot say its someone elses order because that shifts the chain of command around you. This is also my two cents.



Semper Fidelis,


LT

[Koble_USMC]

Originally posted by Pel
After reading all of those posts, and from my own experience, I still stick with what I said or I wouldnt have said it. When I first wrote it I was looking at it with the frame of mind of, Both are Marines, Both have earned it. But than after reading the post by the Lt. let me change it to I would rather be enlisted anyday. "And here is the deal, since you obviously dont have any idea what you are talking about," Maybe that was what I was talking about. Good day, Sir.

Pel

Once again your attitude is horrible. My entire family have been enlisted Marines (3 uncles, my father, my grandfather, and my wifes grandfather). Of these both of my grandfathers fought in the pacific and my uncles and father were in Nam. I do believe that I may know a little bit more than you on this subject. Your cockiness will diminish at boot camp I am confident of that. I am not blasting you for being enlisted or wanting to do so. There is nothing more admirable than being an enlisted Marine. I wanted to be an Officer in order to help enlisted Marines. My relatives have told me many stories of bad things that they experienced with their Officers. So although I do not have experience, I do know a couple of things about how the Corps works.


Ductus Exemplo,



LT

[yellowwing]

...but he makes the order his. When you issue orders, you cannot say its someone elses order because that shifts the chain of command around you.

I like that, sir! Taking responsibilty. Being accoutantable. Being a Leader, whether Officer or Enlisted. :marine:

[mrbsox]

Sir,

Thank you for the insight. I had not looked at it that perhaps the Lt. was also following orders, probably due the the reality that it doesn't matter. An order is an order, no matter where it started up the chain.
And as the Lt. said, the order becomes YOUR order. To follow to the best of your ability.

My main focus on the example, to poolees and young Marines, is that YOUR presence, YOUR example, YOUR direction, will make all the difference in your men.
Do they just get the job done, so they can be done, or does completing the 'mission' strengthen the team, strengthen the chain of command.

The choice is YOURs to make, daily. With every order you receive, and issue, with every decision, you will be LEADING a portion of the greatest fighting force in the world today. Will you be leading them down the path of success, or just the path of completion.

Semper Fi

[Koble_USMC]

mrbsox

I printed that out and hung it on my office wall. I learn from Marines everyday.....if I am anything of a leader, hopefully they will learn something from me as well. Thank you for your insight.



Ductus Exemplo,



LT

[al20852]

Sure there are differences between emlisted and officer, certainly in the training that is required. But bottom line both have earnesd the titme Marine, and each knows that the other went through the toughest training available to earn that title. Noone else in the world can call themselves that. To me the bottom line always has been that every Marine, officer or enlisted, understands that there is a chain of command from General on down. No miitary organization can function without one.

Sure the NCOs are the backbone of the Corps. No doubt about it. But those same NCOs are the first to tell their troops that they should stop griping and understand that there is a chain of command and that that is the essence of a military system.

As for those questioning officer training, when I went thorugh it was 10 weeks OCS and the six months Basic School. Basic school is a little shorter now. But bottom line is that any Marine ofcier has proven him or herself in situations that most Americans could not comprehend or succeed at.

[chezzplayr05]

The most well respected officer I knew personally was a Mustang.

[troop901]

1st, a poolee has not earned the title and so can not state what they think about Marine officer, fer a boot louie ya seem to have a perspective as to what yer Marines want and need Koble.
, I had 5 Lt's. when I was in, we only respected 2 of em, cause they listened to us when they knew what we was talkin bout was right. We called one of our Lt's gungy, not out of hate, but out of respect, we would have followed that man anywhere when a Marine officer sheds his butter bar and puts on da silver, there seems to be a bit more respect given, cause then we know ya got some time in, its da same thing on da enlisted side, a boot, no respect till ya earn it, same thing when a enlisted looks at a officer.
own up to da order, we know it came from above, but dont let us know you know. It works better if we have a officer in front of us who we can blame fer it.
, have fun and listen to yer NCO's Koble, when yer Marines know ya listen then they know yer a leader. Watch Band of Brothers, I know its army, but that is one hell of a learnin tool for officers and enlisted.

[SuNmAN]

My goal is to be a Marine Officer one day - whats The Basic School like?

What do you learn for the duration of the 6 months?

[jo1753]

Originally posted by vfm
My Advice Talk to a Warrant Officer.
SEMPER FI!!!
vfm

vfm.............you took the words right out of my mouth...?
If memory serves my correctly.........didn't we used to refer to them as mustangs....???????????

After reading all of the posts up to this point. I'll try and make a final comment on this topic...

Try to think of NCO's and SNCO's as Marines who sometimes need to wear the covers of ambassadors.......The reason I chose that term is quite simple really. hears the short Definition for ambassador........." those sent on a diplomatic mission "..

I'd say usually in the Corps,when sent on a mission no matter how big or small...........You'll find yourself under orders.

As an E4 and lower. at one time...!!! I was told you always followed...........LAST order 1st.........and it really didn't matter if that order came from a General or a new-bee 2nd louie... It still was an order.

RESPECT...........well that might be another topic completly..!!!
If I had little or no respect for the officer............I'd simply address them by their rank. ie............Lt Smith.... Vs... Lt or even 2nd Lt.
without mentioning their last name at all.

See in the Corps we do have to respect their rank.but we do not have to respect them personally... But that also holds true when refering to NCO's SNCO's Vs enlisted.......pvt's,lcpl's..

In my opinion........... i've never met a more rounded officer then a W grade officer. I've been away from Marine life so long......Perhaps they no longer have them?????????
They used to be W1's thru W4's I do believe...????
Most were enlisted who went over, ( MUSTANGS' ).. Some of the most respected/feared officers in the military. Even by higher ranking officers usually. WHY...? because they were all hard-*sses?............no..!! I simply feel it was they " BEEN THERE,DONE THAT "...!!

Semper-Fi

God Bless the Corps.

[TheGuz]

Out of all these good quotes, this is the one I agree with the most.

[sparkie]

I once sat on a four holer with a full bird. Then, I realized we were all Marines. He was even nice to me. Imagine,,, shootin the s**t with a bird.;]

[sparkie]

Another note; Going back to WESPAC, I rode a seat from Frisco to Hawaii next to a Col. Parrish. He was the man when I did boot. Anyone remember him? Hell of an officer, we talked the whole ride. Yes I do respect officers.