View Full Version : Iraqi prisoners at ABU GHRAIB
recently i was instructed to do a research paper on the "torture" of the Iraqi prisoners by the American soldiers. I believe that we should be able to do things to make people talk, but i think some of the soldiers crossed the line... I wanted to know what you Marines thought of the whole thing. I think your view would be more educated and experienced than mine.
like i said i back and forth on this one!
Well Amamda,
I for one don't really care what our troops did to these so call detainees. I have enough faith in our troops that they will do what is necesary to keep others alive. As for "torture".. I think not. What happened in that prison truly fails to meet my definition of torture. Sounded like just some over aggressive hazing to me. Wonder if the bleeding hearts would go after college frats for the same thing? Sure some guys might have gone a LITTLE too far but oh well. OUR troops are more important to me than their "freedom fighters".
This crap of "they'll treat our troops worse if they are captured because of this" is BS. They don't seem to have a problem cutting the heads off of civilians what makes anyone with a rational mind think they will treat our troops well.
The people in this country that go overboard with this story just want to try to "hurt" the administration. The fact is they hurt our troops. So what some raghead had to stand there for 30 minutes / 2hrs / whatever. So what they didn't get a full 8 hours of sleep. I FOR ONE DON'T CARE. So what. How quickly they forget that Saddam would have just killed them or cut out their tongues or something of the like. Where is the liberal media out cry for that.
I give OUR guys the benefit of the doubt. I trust us more than I trust them.
greensideout
01-26-05, 07:16 PM
Well said CAR! You covered everything except---why do we even WANT to take and care for these enemy fighters? Help 'em die in the combat zone and none of this liberial crying would have begun.
hrscowboy
01-26-05, 07:41 PM
yep i agree with both of you gentleman..
mistreatment of prisoners pays poor dividends. the bulk of the prisoners are going to be released without any charges being filed. <br />
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how can we possibly hold ourselves out as the prime example of...
greensideout
01-26-05, 08:21 PM
Why do you think that they are prisoners? Maybe because they were fighting againest us? <br />
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Democarcy? I thought that we were a republic, with representation, not "mob rule". <br />
<br />
The prisoners? If...
In our care so poorly...........?? <br />
Our we running a pre-school or day care here.......? <br />
Hell no...............like CAR mentioned a while back. These people cut the heads off of people who do not...
torture is a cowards way out. there i've said it, those that mistreat prisoners are nothing but a bunch of cowards.
if i was caught up in a sweep of "the usual suspects" and subjected to that kind of treatment for no reason (yes you morons, a significant number of the prisoners had nothing to do with terrorism and or attacks on our troops) don't you think i would live out the rest of my day seeking revenge.
enlightened self interest demands that prisoners be treated humanely.
jo, liberal i may be, bleeding heart, certainly not, you sir are an idiot. what in the hell did Iraq have to do with 9-11. i pity the fools that drink the administrations kool aid.
HardJedi
01-27-05, 08:28 PM
whats up with the name caling Ivalis? we NEVER agree, but that's ok, but that is kinda crossing the line with the morons, and idiot name calling. Who P!ssed in YOUR cherios? having a bad day or something?
of cpurse, I guess jo was crossing the line with a little personal attack of his own there wasn't he?
lets keep it civil people
thedrifter
01-27-05, 08:34 PM
Thank You, HardJedi...
Ellie
greensideout
01-27-05, 08:38 PM
lol
i get it now, reprimands depend on the political suasion of the poster.
no ivalis didn't........instead ivails chose yet another form of attack.
By criticizing the way our troops are handling things over there. And yes I know in IRAQ........!!!
But are you not able to see terrorism has no bounds for one...!!!
So if you feel those people who cut the heads off of civilians who do not carry and weapons,and do it over the internet. Are thay not choosing terror as a weapon to whom ever watches.
And was it a mere coincidence we as a country were not all that interested in IRAQ till right after 9-11.......? .............Semper-Fi
greensideout
01-27-05, 09:33 PM
Hey guys, care if I step in?
We shouldn't be in Iraq at all. We should have headed to the house of Saud, but of course that wasn't going to happen and we know why.
Ok, back to the prisoners---if they pointed a rifle at you they shouldn't be prisoners, they should be dead!
jo makes a point about, "the way our troops are handing things over there". I would like to point out that our troops handle things very well but it is the folks in DC that handle the war.
ivalis makes the point that we should take good care of the prisoners and he his right! If we have prisoners we should treat them in a way that provides food, shelter and comfort.
The fact is---we shouldn't take prisoners! Shoot the sum-a-*****s in combat and we wouldn't have this problem!
Just some thought on the subject.
HardJedi
01-27-05, 10:02 PM
Originally posted by ivalis
i get it now, reprimands depend on the political suasion of the poster.
Not true at all. I have been reprimanded MORE than once
law_student
01-28-05, 05:59 AM
Amanda, I'm currently writing a paper on a similar topic for an International Law course. Whether you like our tactics or not, they are mild by international custom (e.g. Israel). Even the most staunch civil libertarians seem to agree that "military necessity" requires extreme tactics to obtain information. The famous hypothetical is a nuclear bomb is set to detonate in a major dowtown area, is it okay to torture a prisoner to find out where it is, if time is pressing? Most people say yes.
I think that detainees that are deemed of no intelligence value should be treated with dignity. Hazing and the conduct at Abu Gharab was sophomoric and may be okay in a frat house when the participants have consented, but is unacceptable for a professional soldier or Marine.
When the prisoner or detainee has intelligence value or is a confirmed terrorist, then the tactics should be limited to what is necessary to elicit information. Gratuitous behavior only compromises our own national security and values, because many nations model our policies and actions in developing their own tactics.
Here are a few sources you might consider to get a feel for US policy on interrogations.
Field Manual 34-52 - This is the US military's manual for conducting interrogations.
http://globalsecurity.org/intell/library/policy/army/fm/fm34-52/
ACLU Freedom of Information Act Torture Documents:
http://www.aclu.org/International/International.cfm?ID=13962&c=36
Also, if you go to www.fas.org or www.globalsecurity.org and do a search, you will find a wealth of government documents relating to interrogation tactics.
Good luck on your paper!
LAW_STUDENT............ thank you for that information.
And I too agree with this next part....quote Law_Student
think that detainees that are deemed of no intelligence value should be treated with dignity. Hazing and the conduct at Abu Gharab was sophomoric and may be okay in a frat house when the participants have consented, but is unacceptable for a professional soldier or Marine..... End quote
Really i'm not for the hazing tactics or any needles type of torture. To me it's pointless. Maybe i'm a bit naive when it comes to letting the professionals do their jobs.
On my part....I suppose alot of this does stem from the Vietnam area. And my beliefs surronding how that concluded. Had our government let the war experts at the Pentagon, the people thay trained specifically for war, ie West Point, etc,etc, That would have had a whole different outcome.
Wash. DC and the general public can not be allowed to determine war tactics or policy. for 1 If thay do.............WHY have a Pentagon...? 2 why spend the millions and millions of dollars that goes into the training of those who suppose to be the experts...If DC isn't going to listen to them anyway.
At a glance.........this might sound like i've drifted off the topic quite a bit. But aren't we really talking about what is allowed and what shouldn't be allowed.....Therefore we are speaking about policy.........this is a topic that touches a wide range of people. Both Military and civilian..........Semper-Fi
Namvet67
01-28-05, 01:20 PM
Ok Amanda...you wanted to know what the Marines think of the prisioner "torture"....our opinions can be slanted by what we read in print or see on television but the simple truth of the matter is this: The media should not have been involved with this and it should not have been reported to the general public for scrutiny. This is a military matter and they don't need the input from the civilians. In other words..it really doesn't matter what we think!
gbudd............Semper-Fi..........brother
yup, a military matter, like Auschwitz, or perhaps Pearl Harbor. Citizens don't need to hear about stuff like that.
ivalis- that is an ignorant statement!
The Abu story IS an example of why the media is truly disliked by many military. The media doesn't care about the truth or reflecting an accurate image. The media wants ratings. They go after those stupid stories just to be divisive. They want to get THEIR name out there at whatever the cost. If you think Abu is a BIG story I feel sorry for you. And before you get your feathers ruffled it doesn't imply that what they did was right. It means that while we have troops in harms way, any, I mean any national media that trys to degrade our military accomplishes 2 things: 1) It makes all the weak politicians start to play the appeasement game and 2) despite what Dan Rather tells you It does give the actual enemy more stamina to stay their course.
While you try to take this fictitious "HIGH GROUND" you continue to empower the enemy. Things happen, its war. I am insulted when the libs in this country want to keep this story going... for what gain? The MILITARY was already investigating itself BEFORE any media jumped on it. So the system they had in place worked and was seeking justice on its designed course. It was working. The media needed something to try to bash Bush, so what the heck why not Abu Grahib. Did the media cover the beheadings with the same viger. Does the media report anyhthing good about what is happening in Iraq? Why is it that so many military men/women come back and still say that they believe they are doing the right thing and things although difficult are not as bad as it is being reported in the media? HMMMM. Why hasn't the mainstream media done a story on the UN food for Oil scandal, surely you realize that the UN's failure made money flow into that region, surely you realize that the main countries that stood against the USA in the UN were the very same countries that were gaining finacially from the scandal. ( in my nek of da woods that's called a clue) Kinda why so many Americans had to step to the plate and sacafice so much. That to me is a bigger tradgedy. Do I hear your outcry?
The media is rarely "responsible" for its reporting, they just report and who care what happens after that so long as it serves their political agenda, its OK.
HardJedi
01-28-05, 10:10 PM
Originally posted by ivalis
yup, a military matter, like Auschwitz, or perhaps Pearl Harbor. Citizens don't need to hear about stuff like that.
come on IVALIS are you SERIOUSLY comparing stripping a few dozen guy's naked to murdering 10's of thousands of people? I think you might have a slight problem with perspective my friend. Or do you just ENJOY people jumping all over you and getting worked up all the time?
Originally posted by ivalis
yup, a military matter, like Auschwitz, or perhaps Pearl Harbor. Citizens don't need to hear about stuff like that.
Well if my history teacher did her job correctly. I think things went like this............... The Japs brought the fight to us when they drew first blood @ Pearl Harbor...... I really don't know just where that was suppose to have fit into all this.............But I thought since someone did bring it up...........I'd be polite enough to answer it.
As far as the Auschwitz thing goes..........Honestly I wasn't around back then. All I can do is recall what i've read in books and School. Again my history teachers... Did we have the media crawling around that closely back in WW11...? covering totally everything....? I may be wrong, but I don't think they were allowed to cover anything that wasn't pre-aproved. Then I'd bet it was edited prior to releasing it to the general public.
But again.........God only knows how all that fits into this...LOL
I just thought i'd be polite and answer someones post..!!Semper-Fi
Some of your insist that the media is the problem.
Ignorance is bliss.
I prefer to get my news from folks outside of the government. Of course now ya have the government paying journalists.
The government controlls the press in N. Korea, people there actually believe Il Jung II can shoot a round of golf at 27 (no kidding).
As a citizen & and taxpayor, I want to know what is going on, good or bad (within limits of security of course).
Apparently some would have all of Iraq know about the troubles at Abu Ghraib and not have the citizens of this country know.
In this country the military does answer to the civilians, as it should be. Sometimes it works well, sometimes, not so much. Nonetheless, that's the way it was set up.
HardJedi
01-29-05, 08:15 AM
I don't think the media is the problem, not at it's root anyway. I think misplaced sympathy is the problem, but thats just me. I do not believe, personally, in sympathy for enemy soldiers/terrorists watever.
Yes that is cold, and a sometimes dangerous thing. It makes it almost impossible to treat the enemy humanely. Wanna know what? I really don't give a rats A$$. Maybe there is something wrong with me, mentally, deep inside ( no commnets, please) but I honestly CANNOT bring myself to feel sorry for our enemies. To tell the ABSOLUTE TRUTH, I often find it hard to feel any sympathy at all in most circumstances for what I MYSELF would consider total strangers. And I said MOST circumstances. if you want I can try and desribe all the circumstances in which I DO feel sympathy, but it is an incredibly long list when I stop to think about it, and yet still very narrow in it's scope. If that makes me a bad, or evil person, so be it.
Namvet67
01-29-05, 10:42 AM
ivalis....pull your head out! The media is the problem! Speaking of ignorance...you got more than you will ever use! The military does not answer to civilians! Where did you get that information?
So Ivalis I only have one question for you... You have ten Iraq prisioners on your hands... There is just you, no one to help you. They were rounded up when they attacked US troops in Iraq. Another 50 Involved in the attack got away. WE want to know where those other 50 might have gone... How would YOU get the information? Ask them nicely? Play good cop bad cop like we do in the states?
After all if they were in our shoes they would give us a nice comfy bed and a full 8 hours of sleep a good room service selection and access to the vending machine at the end of the hall. Hell why are we taking them to a prision? Lets take them to a Hilton! (In case you didnt catch the sarcasm there was alot of it)
This post applies to everyone actually... What would YOU do...
Pel
I guess for whatever it's worth i'm within the same beliefs as HardJedi when it comes to this............ We are at war and it shouldn't come as any surprise to ANY of us. When someone says war isn't pretty................. To say it's an ugly business. Would be a huge understatement...!!! But it's also a fact of life... You didn't make it this way,and neither did I. So far as the media fits into all this..............Perhaps they're a kind of necessary evil to some of us.
But is it really necessary for a reporter to cover everything....To a point where they are getting in the way of our troops during an actual assault, etc,etc,
For example...........Does anyone remember sometime when this whole thing first started. The enemy found out ever quickly if they used civilians as shields.Our troops wouldn't fire upon them.
I distinctly remember a Marine captian who was having problems performing his duties because reporters were way to close to the action. Hell they were literally looking over his shoulder with a camera when he was trying to conduct the fight over his radio..........I ask you do we really need coverage like that....?...Semper-Fi
Master Sephiroth
01-29-05, 03:12 PM
People like these camel jockeys should be losing limbs for each time they don't talk. What the left doesn't understand is that torture is the only way to deal with these **** heads
ok budd, what rank is rumsfeld? Bush?, talk bout ignorance.
OK..............you ask what rank our president is.............He's our commander and chief...............You ever heard of it.......?
As far as Rumsfeld.......well our Commander and Chief has the power to appoint who ever he wants.
May I ask........where were you going with this....? Semper-Fi
Patty_McOorah
01-29-05, 05:16 PM
Ivalis, go dip yourself in patchouli oil, don your birkenstocks and tie-dyed t-shirt, go play hackey sack on the capitol lawn while you and rest of the hippies cry about what the soldiers and marines are and aren't doing in Iraq. As I have stated in almost all of my previous posts, I dont believe that the media has any place in that country. When the public is ready to hear about what has happened there, they will be let known, untill then it should be on the need to know basis, and frankly they dont need to know everything.
greensideout
01-29-05, 06:25 PM
Pel, I think you're out of order considering who the person is that you are talking to.
Patty, how is the military gonna pay for anything without civilian tax dollars. How the hell did you get to be a sargent? Must not be a written test involved.
Patty_McOorah
01-29-05, 08:56 PM
You're right, there is not a grammar test involved with the promotion of Sgt in the Marine Corps. Yet, if you had reached that point in your career, maybe you would have known that. You are right though, how would the military pay for anything without civillian tax dollars? Then there is the cold fact that Americans, not only civillians are going to pay taxes reguardless of how they want the money spent.
maybe i'm being a bit out of line here...............But " gang " are we drifting a bit off the thread..........? Just a thought....Semper-Fi
THATFEMALE
02-10-05, 03:10 AM
Amanda you say "torture"? Torture is watching the events that took place on September 11. Torture is burying one of your fellow devils. Torture is never knowing if one day your family will be able to live in a world free of terrorist. Torture is knowing that Osama is still out there breathing. Torture is not being able to join your male counterparts out there in combat. I don't think it was abuse. You can call me wrong but I think those prisioners got what they deserved. I'm not jumping down your throat I'm just clearing up the word " Torture."