Thank God...

[Amanda]

I am getting tired of some of the people in this country. I am so tired of the ACLU trying to take God out of everything. Our nation was founded on God and religion. I don't care how they try to re-write the history books. They whine and cry to please the minority. What about the majority? Its almost to the point, if you are part of the majority the less rights you have. Did you hear about the ACLU attacking the Marine Corps because a group on Marines were praying while "woking for the Government" Its sickning. But I am not going to conform to these "politically correct rules" GOD BLESS AMERICA!

But i believe that the majority of the people in this nation are still patriotic, America loving people. I mean look how this last election turned out... : ) [B]Thank God[/B Bush was re-elected!
]

[yellowwing]

You had the priviledge to vote for Bush only because a civil rights group got the vote for women. <br />
<br />
The ACLU protesting Marines praying has been debunked several times. <br />
<br />
Yes, they do get carried...

[hrscowboy]

hahahaha mike you and your google search brother

[yellowwing]

Well, Google makes me a good living actually! Got to give them a plug now and then.

[TRLewis]

Originally posted by Amanda
I am getting tired of some of the people in this country. I am so tired of the ACLU trying to take God out of everything. Our nation was founded on God and religion. I don't care how they try to re-write the history books. They whine and cry to please the minority. What about the majority? Its almost to the point, if you are part of the majority the less rights you have. Did you hear about the ACLU attacking the Marine Corps because a group on Marines were praying while "woking for the Government" Its sickning. But I am not going to conform to these "politically correct rules" GOD BLESS AMERICA!

But i believe that the majority of the people in this nation are still patriotic, America loving people. I mean look how this last election turned out... : ) [B]Thank God[/B Bush was re-elected!
]

Shut up.

The ACLU tackles everything that comes their way. They lose and they win. But they are consistent.

I also think that the majority of America has a huge problem with other religions. My wife is Jewish, and I'm on the verge of converting myself, not because she is Jewish but because my beliefs are very close to Judaism. But would you like to take a guess of how many people over the age of 30 that stopped speaking to my wife when she mentions she is Jewish? Most people accept it for how it is, while older people still hold ill feelings toward anyone whose religion is not the same as theirs.

My own mother looked at her and said, "YOU DONT BELIEVE IN JESUS?" So stop your complaining, you sound like my mother.

I have no problem with the way things are, and if ACLU wants to remove all that stuff thats cool. Its not going to hurt us, nor will it help us. I dont see _od getting ****ed because we took his name off our currency. He probably already is ****ed about other things. But why get upset over nothing?

Don't like it? Do what I'm doing and save up to buy an island in the south pacific.

[perfectcircle]

Originally posted by TRLewis
Don't like it? Do what I'm doing and save up to buy an island in the south pacific. [/B]


I actually agree strongly with Amanda. And TRLewis, why should we leave because we dont like how others are changing our country? Shouldn't you tell THEM Love it or leave it? We have no problems with the way things ARE just how they are BECOMING.

I stronlgy disagree in removing "God" from pretty much everything. Certain places fine, but it certainly is getting out of hand. I don't think anyone asked them to live and/or stay here.

Sadly, ours laws aren't geared towards protecing the speech we like, but protecting that of which we don't.

They chose a different religion, they chose to stay here. We shouldn't be advised to leave if we don't like how they're changing what's always been.

Just my $0.02

[TRLewis]

Yeah well if you change Amandas words around it sounds exactly like a terrorist speaking about their beliefs.

[CAR]

Personally lewis I don't really care if you believe in God. I do. I may not believe in the christianity "playbook" if you will, but I do believe in the God almighty. That said, The ACLU started with good intentions and has been taken over by a bunch of crazies in the past 20 years. If you want to use the Rush Limbaugh thing, please tell me you believe the ACLU did that "because they believe in his rights to protect his medical records". Purely a political move to bring notice. They did not actually defend him, did they.

As for taking the word GOD out of everything... that's BS. It has nothing to do with the seperation of church and state. The government does not "endorse" a religion. It simply recognizes the FACT that this country was founded on christian beliefs. I have never felt that i have to be a Christian or some Federal Agent would be knocking on my door. Funny how thousands, millions of people still come to THIS country to be allowed to express their religious beliefs freely. I really find it hard to believe that people "all of a sudden" dislike your wife just because she is Jewish. Either you hang out with wierd people or some people just don't like your wife.

The attack on christianity is not an attack on a religion as much as it is an attack on holding people accountable for their actions. Heaven forbid someone judge YOU. Tell me you have never judged anyone for any thing and Let me stand back as your nose grows. It's human nature, sorry that's life.

The ACLU has lost focus on what it was supposed be about. What does it tell you when an organization chooses to back NAMBLA (freaks) while in the same breath attackibg the Boy Scouts. HMMM, men loving little boys = good, Boys not wanting grown men telling them about thier sex life = bad..... HMMM Sound about right to you??? That's your ACLU. It is nothing more than a tax free organization made up of liberal lawyers who want nothing more than to make more money, no matter what the cost. Money, Morals, Responsibility.... no matter. Where is the ACLU for those who want to say GOD in the pledge?

Face it LEW That ACLU is what is wrong with this country. Since the ACLU launched it's "big offensive on offensive speech" OUR right to free speech has been reduced. You have a right to be insulted and so do I. Take it like a man and stop wining. Look at their web site and try to put up a topic on their forum.. You have to have approval first.... good free speech!

GOD Bless america! and by the way lew Merry Christmas in case I forgot.

[B A Hall]

I agree car,I grew up saying the pleadge of aligance in school and now anything with God is forbidden kinda makes you wonder who these people are,Al Zarquie talks about god all the time did God go around killing inosent people.If you don't like God that's your buisness but don't try and take it from those of us who do.Like it sayes In God We Trust.

[B A Hall]

Something aint right when you caint even spell GOD,much less say it.

[Jasnoke]

Amen Car !!!!! Go to your island already TRlewis. we don't want you

[Amanda]

i have one question how does me saying that i don't agree with the ACLU taking God out of everything when that is the very principles America was founded on sound like a terrorist talking? That makes no sence. And maybe i could go purchase my own island and get away from everything that makes me mad. And it speaks volumes when you type the word God similarly to the way you would spell a bad word. You say that it is okay for things to change the way they are changing, if you take God away from America then you take away the principles and values this country was founded on. I am sorry but when i walk into a chinese restaurant and see symbols of their God and religion everywhere, i don't think they are trying to "force" their beliefs on me, i don't march out and demand to have it all removed. Thats what is so great about America, people can choose for themselves.

[HardJedi]

hmnnnn, one quick question? how many people actually BELIEVE that the founding fathers of our nation were practicing christians? you know, washington, Jefferson, franklin, adams, those guy's.


It's just MY opinion, but god( religion) should be alot like sex( your love life) keep it to yourself. there is no need to parade it around everywhere. nor is there any reason to be ashamed of it. it's no ones business but YOURS, and unless you are specifically ASKED about it, I feel that people should keep it to themsevles.

Just my .02

[JAMarine]

I'm in no way as articulate (Endowed with the power of speech) as all of you but as for me................................
it's
One Nation Under GOD

That's my put.

rich

[yellowwing]

...indivisible, with Liberty and Justice for all.

(including Liberals!)

[President Bush] said the United States "cannot carry the message of freedom and the baggage of bigotry at the same time."

So no more Tuesday Annoy a Liberal Day! We have our orders from the Commander in Chief :banana:

[semperfiman]

do i believe in god it doesn't matter what matters is we will fight for you right to worship as you wish

[HardJedi]

Little-Known U.S. Document Signed by President Adams Proclaims America's Government Is Secular

by Jim Walker


Some people today assert that the United States government came from Christian foundations. They argue that our political system represents a Christian ideal form of government and that Jefferson, Madison, et al, had simply expressed Christian values while framing the Constitution. If this proved true, then we should have a wealth of evidence to support it, yet just the opposite proves the case.

Although, indeed, many of America's colonial statesmen practiced Christianity, our most influential Founding Fathers broke away from traditional religious thinking. The ideas of the Great Enlightenment that began in Europe had begun to sever the chains of monarchical theocracy. These heretical European ideas spread throughout early America. Instead of relying on faith, people began to use reason and science as their guide. The humanistic philosophical writers of the Enlightenment, such as Locke, Rousseau, and Voltaire, had greatly influenced our Founding Fathers and Isaac Newton's mechanical and mathematical foundations served as a grounding post for their scientific reasoning.

A few Christian fundamentalists attempt to convince us to return to the Christianity of early America, yet according to the historian, Robert T. Handy, "No more than 10 percent-- probably less-- of Americans in 1800 were members of congregations."

The Founding Fathers, also, rarely practiced Christian orthodoxy. Although they supported the free exercise of any religion, they understood the dangers of religion. Most of them believed in deism and attended Freemasonry lodges. According to John J. Robinson, "Freemasonry had been a powerful force for religious freedom." Freemasons took seriously the principle that men should worship according to their own conscious. Masonry welcomed anyone from any religion or non-religion, as long as they believed in a Supreme Being. Washington, Franklin, Hancock, Hamilton, Lafayette, and many others accepted Freemasonry.

The Constitution reflects our founders views of a secular government, protecting the freedom of any belief or unbelief. The historian, Robert Middlekauff, observed, "the idea that the Constitution expressed a moral view seems absurd. There were no genuine evangelicals in the Convention, and there were no heated declarations of Christian piety."

[HardJedi]

George Washington


Much of the myth of Washington's alleged Christianity came from Mason Weems influential book, "Life of Washington." The story of the cherry tree comes from this book and it has no historical basis. Weems, a Christian minister portrayed Washington as a devout Christian, yet Washington's own diaries show that he rarely attended Church.

Washington revealed almost nothing to indicate his spiritual frame of mind, hardly a mark of a devout Christian. In his thousands of letters, the name of Jesus Christ never appears. He rarely spoke about his religion, but his Freemasonry experience points to a belief in deism. Washington's initiation occurred at the Fredericksburg Lodge on 4 November 1752, later becoming a Master mason in 1799, and remained a freemason until he died.

To the United Baptist Churches in Virginia in May, 1789, Washington said that every man "ought to be protected in worshipping the Deity according to the dictates of his own conscience."

After Washington's death, Dr. Abercrombie, a friend of his, replied to a Dr. Wilson, who had interrogated him about Washington's religion replied, "Sir, Washington was a Deist."

[HardJedi]

Thomas Jefferson


Even most Christians do not consider Jefferson a Christian. In many of his letters, he denounced the superstitions of Christianity. He did not believe in spiritual souls, angels or godly miracles. Although Jefferson did admire the morality of Jesus, Jefferson did not think him divine, nor did he believe in the Trinity or the miracles of Jesus. In a letter to Peter Carr, 10 August 1787, he wrote, "Question with boldness even the existence of a god."

Jefferson believed in materialism, reason, and science. He never admitted to any religion but his own. In a letter to Ezra Stiles Ely, 25 June 1819, he wrote, "You say you are a Calvinist. I am not. I am of a sect by myself, as far as I know."


John Adams


Adams, a Unitarian, flatly denied the doctrine of eternal damnation. In a letter to Thomas Jefferson, he wrote:


"I almost shudder at the thought of alluding to the most fatal example of the abuses of grief which the history of mankind has preserved -- the Cross. Consider what calamities that engine of grief has produced!"
In his letter to Samuel Miller, 8 July 1820, Adams admitted his unbelief of Protestant Calvinism: "I must acknowledge that I cannot class myself under that denomination."
JOHN ADAMS

In his, "A Defence of the Constitutions of Government of the United States of America" [1787-1788], John Adams wrote:


"The United States of America have exhibited, perhaps, the first example of governments erected on the simple principles of nature; and if men are now sufficiently enlightened to disabuse themselves of artifice, imposture, hypocrisy, and superstition, they will consider this event as an era in their history. Although the detail of the formation of the American governments is at present little known or regarded either in Europe or in America, it may hereafter become an object of curiosity. It will never be pretended that any persons employed in that service had interviews with the gods, or were in any degree under the influence of Heaven, more than those at work upon ships or houses, or laboring in merchandise or agriculture; it will forever be acknowledged that these governments were contrived merely by the use of reason and the senses.

". . . Thirteen governments [of the original states] thus founded on the natural authority of the people alone, without a pretence of miracle or mystery, and which are destined to spread over the northern part of that whole quarter of the globe, are a great point gained in favor of the rights of mankind."

[HardJedi]

James Madison


Called the father of the Constitution, Madison had no conventional sense of Christianity. In 1785, Madison wrote in his Memorial and Remonstrance against Religious Assessments:


"During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What have been its fruits? More or less in all places, pride and indolence in the Clergy, ignorance and servility in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution."

"What influence, in fact, have ecclesiastical establishments had on society? In some instances they have been seen to erect a spiritual tyranny on the ruins of the civil authority; on many instances they have been seen upholding the thrones of political tyranny; in no instance have they been the guardians of the liberties of the people. Rulers who wish to subvert the public liberty may have found an established clergy convenient auxiliaries. A just government, instituted to secure and perpetuate it, needs them not."


Benjamin Franklin


Although Franklin received religious training, his nature forced him to rebel against the irrational tenets of his parents Christianity. His Autobiography revels his skepticism, "My parents had given me betimes religions impressions, and I received from my infancy a pious education in the principles of Calvinism. But scarcely was I arrived at fifteen years of age, when, after having doubted in turn of different tenets, according as I found them combated in the different books that I read, I began to doubt of Revelation itself.


". . . Some books against Deism fell into my hands. . . It happened that they wrought an effect on my quite contrary to what was intended by them; for the arguments of the Deists, which were quoted to be refuted, appeared to me much stronger than the refutations; in short, I soon became a through Deist."


In an essay on "Toleration," Franklin wrote:


"If we look back into history for the character of the present sects in Christianity, we shall find few that have not in their turns been persecutors, and complainers of persecution. The primitive Christians thought persecution extremely wrong in the Pagans, but practiced it on one another. The first Protestants of the Church of England blamed persecution in the Romish church, but practiced it upon the Puritans. These found it wrong in the Bishops, but fell into the same practice themselves both here [England] and in New England."


Dr. Priestley, an intimate friend of Franklin, wrote of him:


"It is much to be lamented that a man of Franklin's general good character and great influence should have been an unbeliever in Christianity, and also have done as much as he did to make others unbelievers" (Priestley's Autobiography)

[HardJedi]

The U.S. Constitution


The most convincing evidence that our government did not ground itself upon Christianity comes from the very document that defines it-- the United States Constitution.

If indeed our Framers had aimed to found a Christian republic, it would seem highly unlikely that they would have forgotten to leave out their Christian intentions in the
Supreme law of the land. In fact, nowhere in the Constitution do we have a single mention of Christianity, God, Jesus, or any Supreme Being. There occurs only two references to religion and they both use exclusionary wording. The 1st Amendment's says, "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion. . ." and in Article VI, Section 3, ". . . no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the United States."



so where is this founded on god part? ;)

[BHABIT]

When I took my oath I promised among other things to give my life in support of the Constitution as well as the freedoms of our fine citizens of this country. Although there are times and people that make up our citizenry that inforce my beliefs in "Natural Selection", I remind myself that what makes this country great is the people that fight and die so that even the idiots and misdirected can have their voice too.

As for religion and politics I believe that is something that is the very first thing that causes wars.

We all have our beliefs...

[TRLewis]

Since it looks like I'm representing the Jewish faith, let me explain Judaism does not spell out _od. So now you are showing me you are uneducated enough to take note that someone who says ****, damn, *****, shut the **** up, does not blank it out.

Now I move on to my next point, "I believe in Allah he is the savior and he has instructed us to kill the infidels for their support of Israel." Most of the statements on this thread are radical. So few of you are willing to let things lay the way they fall.

Now on to my next point, Christianity has only a written policy(the bible) to follow, which has been rewritten ****ing alot. The most popular version here in America is the King James version.

Now a King is alot like a dictator back in those times. Of course a king wants to hang onto his power, if he is overthrown he would be killed.

So he rewrites the bible in more easier terms for his subjects. Bull****, I call liar liar pants on fire. I'm sorry but if I got to rewrite the bible I would be damn sure that I would be ****ing worshipped. But Christians still believe this word is bond.

Now the new testament was written years after the events of "jesus" happened. Memories fade, they did drugs, their memories really faded.

I am sorry to invoke this upon you but personality disorders, sociopaths, and just plain crazies are not a product of the 19th, 20th, and 21st centuries. They have been around since the begining of time and man. Look at Nero or pretty much any roman emperor.

So could Jesus have been a sociopath? Could have been. He was the starter of a cult, that most people follow today. Look at Mormons, they are by far the worst. Look at all the people you have seen in the last 20-30 years who claim to be jesus reborn. I dont see christians running to them with open arms.

Most of you are jumping on this with blind faith. I don't hate any of you for it, like I said I let it lay where it falls. Quite a few of you cannot comprhend this idea. Metaphors are something you cannot understand. But I do not hate you for your ignorance to attempt to understand what is beyond the bible belt.

In closing if you are trying to classify me, go for a Buddist Jew. Because unlike most of you, I can live in peace with others religions and attempt to respect it to a degree. Go protest somewhere else.

[Namvet67]

TRLewis...I've got to go with all posts on this thread except yours. You are starting to step on some toes. Are you having a bad day? Don't see any protests or anyone trying to classify you! Don't see any blind faith either....and I think most of us can comprehend this (your) idea!

[Amanda]

No one is protesting here, but if we were where would you like us to go? You disagree with me and state many opinions as a fact, such as "he was the starter of a cult that most people follow today." But that is okay, i am facinated by your opinion. I can live in peace with other religions as well, and i am not tyring to change anyone, i just hate to see this nation having God taken out of every aspect of it. I disagree with you but still respect your position. And by the way, i have no problem with Jews, i have several Jewish friends..

[HardJedi]

hmnnn I took all the time to gather that info, and no one has even responded to any of it. poor me :( LOL

[Amanda]

haha : ) LOL sorry. Let me start over... Wow, that is so great, thank you for informing me of that!!!! You are so smart!!! : )

I'm just kidding, no i really did read it and it was interesting and informative Thanks, : )
What website did you get the info from?

[Amanda]

"I consider it an indispensable duty to close this last solemn act of my official life, by commending the interests of our dearest country to the protection of Almighty God, and those who have the superintendence of them to His holy keeping." -- George Washington in his resignation on Dec. 23, 1783

"It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great nation was founded, not by religionists, but by Christians, not on religions, but on the Gospel of Jesus Christ! For this very reason people have been afforded asylum, prosperity, and freedom to worship here." -- Patrick Henry


"Can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the mids of the people that these liberties are...the gift of God? That they are not to be violated but with His wrath?" -- Thomas Jefferson


"I shall need...the favor of that Being in whose hands we are, who led our forefathers, as Israel of old, from their native land, and planted them in a country flowing with all the necessities and comforts of life; who has covered our infancy with His providence, and our riper years with His wisdom and power; and to whose goodness I ask you to join with me in supplications, that He will so enlighten the minds of your servants, guide their councils, and prosper their measures, that whatsoever they do shall result in your good, and shall secure to you the peace, friendship, and approbation of all nations." -- Thomas Jefferson

Amoung our founding fathers there were, 28 Episcopalians, 8 Presbyterians, 7 Congregationalists, 2 Lutherans, 2 Dutch Reformed, 2 Methodists, 2 Roman Catholics, 1 unknown and 3 deists.

“ The general principles upon which the Fathers achieved independence were the general principals of Christianity… I will avow that I believed and now believe that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and attributes of God.”-John Adams

[Amanda]

On November 11, 1620, prior to embarking for the shores of America, the Pilgrims signed the Mayflower Compact that declared: `Having undertaken, for the Glory of God and the advancement of the Christian Faith and honor of our King and country, a voyage to plant the first colony in the northern parts of Virginia,'.

April 18, 1775, british mayor Pitcairn shouted to an assembled group of minutemen saying "Disperse ye villians, lay down your arms in the name of George the sovereign king of England", The immediate response of John Adams and John Hancock were "We recognize no sovereign but God, and no king but Jesus.

Some proposals for the United States Seal were... "moses lifting his wand and dividing the red sea" -Ben Franklin

and..

"The children of Israel in the wilderness, led by a cloud by day and a pillar of fire by night" -Thomas Jefferson


"For the Lord is our Judge, the Lord is our lawgiver, the Lord is our King, He will save us." -James Madison at the Constitutional Convention of 1787

"We've staked our future on our ability to follow the Ten Commandments with all of our heart" -James Madison

Alexander Hamilton said there were two things that made America great, Christianity and a Constitution formed under Christianity.

[hiku]

This country was founded on the belief of God, let tradition take it's rightful place. Let us practice our religion, and support it if we believe in God.

[TRLewis]

LOL I start stating facts, and letting people know about their religion and everything is cool then. Funny how that stuff works.

hiku, this country was not founded on _od it was founded on the belief that no one shall be persecuted for their religion. Well except mormons and their poligamy its just illegal.

gbudd i was being classified, persecuted if you would like to say because i do not spell out _od.

im not here to educate people, my best advice look at jews. they have endured some ****, and you dont see them protesting. best advice i ever heard was when my mother wished a guy named Hahm merry christmas, the next time i seen him i apologized and he said, "why do i care? its just another day off work for me."

[CAR]

Sorry Lew.
This country was founded on Christian beliefs. It's laws started out based on the 10 commandments. Thou shall not kill and such. As for the "have no other gods before me...etc," the founding fathers were smart enough to realize that no ONE religion shall be "endorsed" by the Government. Thus you are free to worship as everyone else is.

Your last 2 posts seems more of an attack on a religion that you do not agree with. Fine. Isn't that the beauty of this country, YOU don'thave to believe as I do. BUT, when a religion is attacked ,ie: christianity, and an overwhelming majority of the country is christian, you bet your bottom dollar you'll have a fight on your hand. The topic is "removing GOD from school, money, courtrooms, pledge, etc.... That is an attack on a religion. It has nothing to do if YOU believe it or not the fact is many others do. So who is trying to degrade anothers religion.

As for getting along with other people from other religions and basically calling us narrow minded.... sad. What a pitiful statement. In your own words you show proof of the intolerance of other religions toward christanity. You attack the Bible as if what your reading is first edition. Let me fill you in on something, ALL writings of all religions were done and redone by man, therefore subject to error and perception. It's called faith. You either believe in what you believe or don't. I don't really care.

I never want you to feel as if you have to be or should be a believer in God. But I do want you to understand that others do. To attempt to change that is looked upon the same as if christians where to attempt to change your religion. Wouldn't like it now would you.

By the way how is it that your a budist jew??? Is that like, "I'm a 1/4 mexican, 1/4 german, 1/4 Jewish and 1/4 Chinese, but I was born here"??? How does that work?

God Bless you and give you strength to be tolerant of others.

[iroc3000cc]

i say screw the ACLU because it is god bless america or get the **** out of this country.

[HardJedi]

GOSH DARN IT NO IT WASN'T FOUNDED ON "christian"

Jeferson was a diest, madison and washington and frankilin, all of them believed in god, but not the christian religion.

[Amanda]

looks like we have a difference of opinion... Maybe they were not "Christians" But that does not change the fact that the nation was founded on Christian ideals...

I am not saying that since it was founded on these principles that christianity should be forced on everyone. I believe that our nation should not remove what was obviously had a great deal to do with building it...it is part of our history...if a person walks past a statue of the ten commandments in a governmet building, and they dont like it...well then just walk by it, its not going to jump out at you and start hitting you with a bible...i am tired of the minority of people whining and complaining because it offends them or they are uncomfortable. Gosh darn it they are free to worship as they will, get some thicker skin and stop crying.

okay i'm done! : )

[yellowwing]

Were not many of the Founding Fathers members of the Masons? There are a type of Christian organization.

I do not have exact documentation, but half of the folks in 1775 did not care either way if we broke from King George. They were too busy just trying to make a living to stay alive.

1/4 loved the King. The other fourth thought we could and should go it on our own.

I'm glad they had the b*lls and Faith to stand up and do it!

[TRLewis]

Originally posted by CAR

By the way how is it that your a budist jew??? Is that like, "I'm a 1/4 mexican, 1/4 german, 1/4 Jewish and 1/4 Chinese, but I was born here"??? How does that work?

God Bless you and give you strength to be tolerant of others.

It was a metaphor, like I said I'm not here to educate.

I really dont see the connection with the 10 commandments and the constitution minus thou shall not kill.

[yellowwing]

260 million Americans. And we have 200,000 Marines that relieve them of the burden of "Thou shalt not kill." They owe us big time!

[SuNmAN]

Originally posted by yellowwing
[B]You had the priviledge to vote for Bush only because a civil rights group got the vote for women.


------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The ability to vote is a RIGHT. Not a PRIVELIGE. Women should've always been allowed to vote. The civil rights group just pushed for what should've already been done.

[TRLewis]

Ahhhh now it is a right, well since it is a right lets go liberate some more countries that do not have the right to vote.

Maybe you should review your law history, because it is not a right. Rights cannot be taken away, the ability to vote can be taken away by commiting certain crimes.

[HardJedi]

Originally posted by SuNmAN

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The ability to vote is a RIGHT. Not a PRIVELIGE. Women should've always been allowed to vote. The civil rights group just pushed for what should've already been done.


OH REALLY? you THINK so do you? The ONLY "right" anyone has, is to try and change things if they don't like the way they are going. "rights" in the LEGAL sense, such as voting, are nothing but legalized priveliges.


think about it.

what rights does ANYONE really have?

[LivinSoFree]

Taken from "Starship Troopers" but exceedingly relevant. I highly recommend the book if you haven't read it... it's an EXCELLENT piece of philosophy, and NOTHING like that crappy movie. But I digress:

The following is taken from a scene in the book set in a "History and Moral Philosophy" class, and a student has just inquired of the instructor regarding the Declaration's assertion of "Inalienable Rights"



Student: "How about 'life, liberty and the persuit of happiness'?"

Mr. Dubois: "Ah, yes, the 'unalienable rights.' Each year someone quotes that magnificent poetry. Life? What 'right' to life has a man who is drowning in the Pacific? The ocean will not hearken to his cries. What 'right' to life has a man who must die if he is to save his children? If he chooses to save his own life, does he do so as a matter of 'right'? If two men are starving and cannibalism is the only alternative to death, which man's right is 'unalienable'? And is it 'right'? As to liberty, the heroes who signed the great document pledged themselves to buy liberty with their lives. Liberty is never unalienable; it must be redeemed regularly with the blood of patriots or it always vanishes. Of all the so-called natural human rights that have ever been invented, liberty is least likely to be cheap and is never free of cost. "The third 'right'?--the 'persuit of happiness'? It is indeed unalienable but it is not a right; it is simply a universal condition which tyrants cannot take away nor patriots restore. Cast me into a dungeon, burn me at the at the stake, crown me king of kings, I can 'persue happiness' as long as my brain lives--but neither gods nor saints, wise men nor subtle drugs, can insure that I will catch it."


Get the point?

[yellowwing]

Like I've said before, 260 million Americans and only 200k US Marines. "Never before have so many owed so much to so few!" Borrowing from Winston Churchill.

The 260 M and the liberal media basically do not understand, we are the ones that will kill for you. And we are so good at it, it scares the sh*t out of you!

[LivinSoFree]

i say screw the ACLU because it is god bless america or get the **** out of this country.

I think you're gonna be in for a bit of a reality check when you hit boot camp and then after.

The way SSgt Couch put it: "I don't believe in religion. We kill for a living, and religions are against killing, one way or another, and I'm not a hypocrite. But that doesn't mean that I don't know about all of them, because I have to be able to take care of my Marines."

You don't have to be a Christian to be an American, and this crap about "Under God or Get Out" is the antithesis of EVERYTHING this country was built to represent. I ignored this thread at first because it was a circular argument, but godda**it, it REALLY gets me riled up to see this kind of hate-filled BS spewed out at people... THAT is NOT WHAT I SIGNED UP TO PROTECT!

The true American is the man who can love his country and fly his flag, but let his neighbor burn his. You don't have to like it, you don't have to understand it, you just have to let him do it.

[CAR]

Originally posted by TRLewis


It was a metaphor, like I said I'm not here to educate.

I really dont see the connection with the 10 commandments and the constitution minus thou shall not kill.

Lew, Lew, Lew:
Thanks for refraining form educating us but ... my comment was a joke, so get off your hobby horse and try to relate to us "little people"

The ten commandments were used as a BASE for many laws. Kill, Steal, Lets think back, no, lets look at many current laws on the books from many different states, counties etc. Do you think laws like "you can only make love in the missionary position," "no sodomy", "one wife", "adultary", came from some guys head. It was based off beliefs ..... hmmmmm what beliefs might those be. Now times have changed and so have some laws but it doesn't change the fact that the ideals came from a religious belief, NOONE ever said that those who wrote the laws and started this country were religious themselves...... that is not the point. The point is that they set up a system based on certain ideals. Nothing more.

If you think rights can not be taken away, you need to educate yourself a bit more. Rigths in this country are only "God given rights" in the sense of the phrase and nothing more. The bill of rights was voted on and so were the other ammendments, sooooooo... I guess that means they could be voted out at some point too huh?

Look you like te ACLU, fine. It is a sad organization that has lost it's way. They just reprimanded some of their own for voicing their opinion. Two top lawyers were dismissed because they did not likethat the ACLU does background checks on people that contribute money and oppose them. They use the same methods that they protest the Patriot Act using. So it's OK for the ACLU but not for the GOV. Good organization.

To bad Lew your backing a losing horse. (That too was a joke, just for clarification)

[Underleft]

I could care less if god was taken out of the government. I have no problem with god being in or out. I do however see the wisdom in taking it out. making kids say "one nation under god" in the pledge without a choice is almost making them believe in god. Last thing. Telling people to god bless america or get out is just the same as the ACLU telling you to take it out. So your going to tell a Corporal of the United States Marine Corps to get out because he doesn't necessarily believe in god? So because of my believes I can't use my skills and abilities to serve the country that I too live in. I would have to say that your just like the ACLU. You think your right...so do they. how do you know which one truley is? You can't, and there will never be a way to decide. you just worship the way you want. What is taking god out of the government really gonna do to your religion?

[1recon]

Originally posted by HardJedi
The U.S. Constitution


The most convincing evidence that our government did not ground itself upon Christianity comes from the very document that defines it-- the United States Constitution.

If indeed our Framers had aimed to found a Christian republic, it would seem highly unlikely that they would have forgotten to leave out their Christian intentions in the
Supreme law of the land. In fact, nowhere in the Constitution do we have a single mention of Christianity, God, Jesus, or any Supreme Being. There occurs only two references to religion and they both use exclusionary wording. The 1st Amendment's says, "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion. . ." and in Article VI, Section 3, ". . . no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the United States."



so where is this founded on god part? ;)

HardJedi,
The constitution may not have said any thing about the coutry being founded on God, but it is not the document that needed to. The Constitution is the laws of the country. The Declaration of Independence on the other hand is the document that founded the United States of America and God is found in the first sentence.

[1recon]

Any one who says God Bless America or get out is just as bad as the ACLU. But I don't think it is right to take God out of our Pledge, or our government. It is not saying that everyone has to believe in God. Separation of church and state isn't even in the bill of rights.

[yellowwing]

The young lad has a valid point. "I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America. And to the Rupublic for which its Stands, one Nation Under God, with Liberty and Justice for al!"

I can get behind that!

[Catz1611]

Originally posted by Amanda
looks like we have a difference of opinion... Maybe they were not "Christians" But that does not change the fact that the nation was founded on Christian ideals...

I am not saying that since it was founded on these principles that christianity should be forced on everyone. I believe that our nation should not remove what was obviously had a great deal to do with building it...it is part of our history...if a person walks past a statue of the ten commandments in a governmet building, and they dont like it...well then just walk by it, its not going to jump out at you and start hitting you with a bible...i am tired of the minority of people whining and complaining because it offends them or they are uncomfortable. Gosh darn it they are free to worship as they will, get some thicker skin and stop crying.

okay i'm done! : ) Amanda, You GO GIRL!:cool:
I've enjoyed reading your posts! You are 100% right..:bunny:

[HardJedi]

the DECLARATION founded the united states? I hardly think so. it was a document declaring intent to seperate ourelves from great britain. without LAWS there IS no country.



hmnnn you know whats REALLY funny? re-read your bible. there is only ONE thing listed as the ten commandmants. know what it is?

it's not what you think. trust me.

( this is gonna take a bit., but its the only plae in the bible that lists ANYTHING speciffically called the TEN COMMANDMENTS) )

And the lord said unto moses, Hew thee two tables of stone like unto the first; and I will write upon these tables the words that were in the first tables, which though brakest....

Take heed to thyself, lest though make a covenant with the inhabitants of the land wither thou goest, lest it be for a snare in the midst of thee:

For ye shall destroy their altars, break thier images, and cut down thier groves:

For though shalt worship no other god: for the Lord, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God:

Lest though make a covenant with the inhabitants of the land, and they go whoring after thier gods, and so sacrifice unto thier gods, and one call thee, and thou eat of his sacrifices.


I can continue with the rest of the ONLY THING IN THE BIBLE named " the ten commandments if you like, or you can just pick up the dang bible and read for yourself

Exodus 34:1. 12-28

numbers 31 is ALSO of interest as is Judges 19

[TRLewis]

The thing that amazes me so much is how people are unwilling to bargain. I am not backing the ACLU for the SECOND ****ING TIME I have to say it.

But since we are in this hypothetical situation getting rid of everything that is ungod like, we must get rid of the days of the week since they are based on pagan gods.

[1recon]

HardJedi, do you know your history? The constitution was not the first laws of the country. The first laws of the country were actually the Mayflower Compact which was written in 1620. After the War for Independence was started when we wrote the Declaration of Independence, which we needed to let the King know our intent, the colonists realized they needed to have a more central government to keep control. The second continental congress then wrote the Articles of confederation and it was finished in 1777. The colonies then had to ratify it for it to truely become law. 13 coloneis had signed it by 1781 when it went into effect. However the articles were too loose and there was fear of anarchy after Shays rebelion. There was then then Consititutional convention were they tried to come up with better laws where they came up with the conn. compromise, the Virginia plan,and the New Jersey plan. By Sept 17 1787 there were 39 signatures on the Constitution and within 9 months it was ratified by 9 states, which according to article 7 was sufficient for it to become the law. So HardJedi, there were laws long before the constitution and the Declaration was the founding document because without that document we would not have been recognized as a country by other countries, we would have been looked at as traitors and rebels.

[1recon]

Oh yeah you should read the fedralist papers too.

[yellowwing]

Ben Franklin and Tom Jefferson really like they way the Iroqouis had set up their Confederation.

One obcsure part was the duties of the War Chief. When the head negitiator was talking to new tribe, he would ask them extactly three times, "There can be peace amongst us!"

If the other negotiator refused after a third time, it was up to the War Chief to leap forward and kill him! Negitiations over. Get Some!

[HardJedi]

do i know my history? yes indeed I do. ( being a history major and all)


I said that there is no NATION without laws. Yes there were LAWS on this continent LONG before there was ever a united states of america. ( long before Christians, or white people at all for that matter, so does that mean our country was founded on indian beliefs?) :D

The only thing I meant was that there are no PREDOMINATLEY christian ideas in the constitution, and that most of the people who WROTE that darn thing, and thus decided early United states policies, where not themselves practicing christians.

You wanna talk about History? Fine, most of the moral and ethical codes of christianity( as well as the myths it claims) can be found in much OLDER texts and stories, like the code of Hammarabi for example . ( not sure I spelled that right)

By the way, do you REALISE how silly an argument you made? You state, quite CLEARLY that the declaration of independence was what FOUNDED this country, then you go on to state that the Mayflower Compact of 1620 wheere the first laws of this COUNTRY. Lets see, declaration estabilishes this COUNTRY in 1776, yet somehow in 1620, the mayflower compact where this COUNTRIES first laws? how's that work? The countries LAWS existed BEFORE the country itself?

[yellowwing]

Either way, the end result of after 230 years is not bad at all. We have all raised out right hands and sworn to Defend This Country, warts and all.

[HardJedi]

point taken yellowing, I am done with this one.