is a marine still a marine that kills a police officer

[geno456]

question is a marine still a marine if he kills a police officer

[Timber]

Not in my book. At least not the way he did it

[femalemarine_89]

Not in my book either..

[Timber]

Not taking this personal are yeah

[geno456]

i agree its sad what he did to keep from going back to the war
now he is dead and a police officer is dead

[geno456]

i am also a former police officer

[femalemarine_89]

No not taking it personal at all.. Yeah right.

[JAG5150]

YES, even as a former police officer myself. you teach a man to fight and kill and when he does what he is trained to do, we take his title, hell no he earned that.

[Timber]

Just pickin' I know it's not in the least bit funny. That was in bad taste, I am sorry. Most of my friends are either Fire-Rescue or Police, and Jarheads

[femalemarine_89]

Its cool timber..

[Timber]

Point made JAG. Still I want to know why the system i.e. command failed to see the signs

[geno456]

he was not trained to kill police officers

[JAG5150]

My opinion is not going to be popular but I don't care. If he had done this in Iraq, all would be good but he did it here and he was wrong but thats not the point.

[JAG5150]

No, he was trained to kill indiscriminately, you have no time in combat to figure out who to kill on the oposing side, at that point in his life, the police were the oposing force and he did what he felt was necessary.

And yes Timber, his cammand and the whole support unit failed him.

[hrscowboy]

how many Marines have killed police officers in other countrys ??? are they still Marines? First of all I think we need to look at what happened here? Here is a Marine that has been in Combat and seen a hell of alot killin and death among his own and children of this country. This type of stuff has alot of crap that screws with a man or womans mind. Also you have to remember that this Marine also could have a buddy very close to him killed and he may have survival guilt going on in his mind. This PTSD is very real and very dangerous with combat veterans. This is why i am totally against any veteran being deployed into a combat zone more than 1 tour (12 months) Again ladies and gentleman let us not forget there where alot of Vietnam vets and still are today that are still fighting that damn war every day and everynight. If a veteran says he cant go back that should be a stresser to his commanding officer that hey somethings wrong here and get this man some help. If our country is not ready for this type of actions from our vets then they better take a real good look at things before we go off to fight a damn war...

[Timber]

No he wasn't but he did what he was trained to do, he fell back on instinct and reacted emmotionally to a bad sit.

We have FF beating the living hell out of each other in the house, WHY because like us Marines we don't like to ask for help. As Marines we are taught to put our emotions away for good reason cause when we let them have control bad things happen.

[geno456]

i agree with u hrscowboy and this is a problem thats needs to be looked into

[hrscowboy]

bottom line is our command failed this young man..

[greensideout]

Originally posted by hrscowboy
bottom line is our command failed this young man..

He failed himself Cowboy---but I understand what you are saying.

There is that slight crack that he fell into.

[geno456]

from what i have read in the the paper he told friends and famly
that he did not want to go back to iraq but he would not tell them
them why he said they would not understand .
Q how can command fix this problem if they dont know if there is one

[greensideout]

Do you know that there is a problem? And I know? Hello command, everyone knows there's a problem, how about you?

Do I think that this is a command problem in reguard to what this Marine did? My ansewer is no. The kid broke, he failed.

[hrscowboy]

Stressors geno he said he didnt want to go back and that his family wouldnt understand. That what all of us combat vets have told our familys I dont want to talk about Nam you wouldnt understand.. Alot of people including police officers have no idea what PTSD really is my brother.. there all kinds of PTSD .. I am retired Chief of police and i didnt understand PTSD until one day a veteran was standing at my front door with a 45 cal pistol stuck in his mouth and was going to kill himself before he killed anyone else. It took me 5 hours to talk my ass off to this young man to put the gun down and i would get him some help and he finally did that. Thats when i took it upon myself to learn about PTSD and i made all my officers learn about it also just in case we ever had another incident like that..

[hrscowboy]

yes greenside your right my brother he broke and failed but someone should have seen the stressor's and got this young man some help..

[greensideout]

Easy to hid the stress till it takes over. Then it's too late. Sounds like that may have happened to him.

[geno456]

this marine planed this i saw the vido he shoots 1 round in the
ground and tells the store owner that someone shot at him to call the police and he waits for them to arrive is this what ptsd does ?

[greensideout]

Originally posted by geno456
this marine planed this i saw the vido he shoots 1 round in the
ground and tells the store owner that someone shot at him to call the police and he waits for them to arrive is this what ptsd does ?

I don't have a clue what ptsd does and don't pretend to.

I also don't understand why he didn't go back to Iraq and duke it out with them. He knew he would die taking on the police here the way he did. He could have done some good there. Don't know is my answer.

[SgtDvlDog3]

I'll apologize now before I write this. If this young man didn't want to go back to Iraq and would do anything to not go then he should have just used one bullet for himself. Yet now he has to go and kill a police officer another person of honor who has sworn to defend and protect the weak. If it was that bad why not just run away. Better yet, like Greensideout said, why not go back and go down in a blaze of glory and take a few out with him. How would you feel if he had just decided to take out the Marines from his platoon instead of a police officer? and Jag I disagree, He was taught to "Locate, close with and destroy the enemy." Not other friendlies. Based on his actions I would classify that as pre-meditated and completely Ba**less!!!!!!!

[Toby M]

I am also a former law enforcement officer (retired Deputy Sheriff) and I definately believe he was in the wrong in killing anyone (let alone a police officer. Marines are trained to kill in combat! I cannot pretend to know what went on in his mind but when you make the decision to take a life and or die in the process rather than go back into a war zone (?????), then there is a definate problem somewhere! Does this mean his immediate superiors need to be trained psychologists? How far does one go in determining their own fate? How far does one have to go in making decisions for another?

[hrscowboy]

again gentleman he could have very well be having survival guilt and wanted someone to do him in and the police officers where just the ones to do it . I am not saying this is justified what so ever what i am saying our NCOs and Staff NCOs and officers could be trained to see different stressors and it would only take a forty hour course to learn about it. I know the government knows what PTSD is and what causes it hell they found out what it was from the Korean war. its called shell shocked, battle fatigue, and vietnam happened and it was called PTSD. It does not take a medical doctor to determine if a veteran has PTSD if he knows the stressors to look for..

[dibob]

He was a Marine when he died. He was a casualty of war. He didn''t come home, like many others, missing body parts, but he did come home with a short circuit in his brain brought on by the terrible stress of combat. PTSD is insidious.

[jinelson]

originally posted by hrscowboy: Again ladies and gentleman let us not forget there where alot of Vietnam vets and still are today that are still fighting that damn war every day and everynight. If a veteran says he cant go back that should be a stresser to his commanding officer that hey somethings wrong here and get this man some help. If our country is not ready for this type of actions from our vets then they better take a real good look at things before we go off to fight a damn war...

Thank you, I got your back and agree cowboy I was trained to see the red flags and I am sure that nothing has changed since I served, this Marine and his warning signs should have been noticed by his NCO's and Staff NCO's long before it came to his ultimate unforunate actions.

[Koble_USMC]

All of this is true, but a Marine does not run from his duty, which is what this individual did. Its not the fact that he killed a police officer (obviously I think that this is wrong too) but more so that he gave up on his family. That is why he should not be called a Marine.

[DSchmitke]

He!! no he's an ex-Marine.

[Namvet67]

He did die as a Marine. What he did was wrong. If he would have lived and went through the legal system...he would still be a Marine unless the Corps took the title back. For all we know...he may have seen himself on the battlefield...PTSD will do that to you.

[geno456]

the sad part he was not on the battefield sure he was in iraq but
he was in a safe area he did not kill anyone there were does
ptsd play here . they interviewed marines in his unit
he was atruck driver

[hrscowboy]

You do not have to be a combat vet to have PTSD gentleman as i said before in one of my post there are several types of PTSD. There are several sites on the internet that will explain what PTSD is and does to people. We as police officers and Marines need to educate ourselves when we have people that go and do this type of thing. What this man did was wrong no doubt about it, but again the stressors where there and no one knew what the stressors where or how to detect it.. Geno you say that from what people reported this Man was in a safe area? Can you tell me anywhere in a war zone that is safe?? I too can remember when someone said the area of Marble Mountain was safe in vietnam in 1969 but we still recieved rockets on our airfield damn near every other day. Freedom hill recieved rockets also and the airbase in danang. It doesnt matter where you are in a combat zone your not safe from danger we had numerous incoming and zappers trying to come thru the wires all the time... and zulu company was a reactionary force that protected numerous areas in the marble mountain area.

[BHABIT]

As some others... I will apologize now before I write this... PTSD is more than just insidious...and there is no way to discribe it unless you experience it, either by having it or heaven forbid, facing someone that does.

Brothers we earned the classification "MARINE"... we will be a MARINE even after death. We ARE the finest aggressors in the world. When we have the classification bestowed on us it is because we have been mentally and physically conditioned (programed) to do extraordinary things that no other service does.

It is of only of my own personal feelings and experience that our Marines are not recieving the proper de-programing following their tour. Having said that... let me also say that "My Corps" Does NOT MAKE MISTAKES!

There was a time that I felt that the Marines that had PTSD had an emotional or mental frailty that caused PTSD. But if that was the case they would not be Marines!

There is alot of education and human understanding that needs to take place in regard to PTSD. But untill you have it and what you see through you own eyes is absolutely NOT the situation at hand, then my brothers you have NO idea...

[hrscowboy]

Thank you gunny i concur....

[CAR]

Sorry but I may have somewhat of a different take on it. Though I may agree with parts of other posts my point is this:

Yes he is a Marine and died having earned that title. He did however commit a horrible crime that is unbecomming of any Marine. We were not trained to kill indescriminately. We are taught to engage the ENEMY in field of COMBAT, not at a gas station in California.

PTSD or not I can't say, nor do I think could anyone else can since no-one truly knew this man's mindset. I refuse to recognize that the Corps taught him to "take out the opposing force" to include police officers.

I mean no disrespect to those who have or are suffering from PTSD not having experienced it myself. That being said, I find it hard to attribute to PTSD, I attribute it to bad judgement on the kids part. He did not just happen to be at a gas station with an assualt rifle, he had a plan. He had the attendant call 911 so that police would show up. He laid in wait until the police showed up and imediately engaed them. He committed murder, against a police officer at that. If he had done this in Iraq, I would hope it would have been against some insurgints or some thug that was trying to kill him, otherwise it would still be murder, just waiting to kill someone, anyone!

The suicide by cop thing is at times overused. If someone wants to get killed by cops he doesn't evade them. I feel sorry for this kid's family that now has to live with the ramifications of his decision. He was failed by his family, friends, and more so he failed himself. Traggic.

[jinelson]

I just saw on the local news that this man was buried today without military honors. Then they went on to say that further investigation revealed that he was high on cocaine and he had confided in a friend that he needed to buy an SKS because it would penetrate a police armor vest. He did have some depression issues and also that he had not seen any combat in Iraq and the only combat he saw was here with the police. The police have said that he did not want to go back to Iraq and he decided that suicide by police was his only option. They also said that he asked the liquor store he was robbing to call the police.

[dibob]

Yeah, he should have done this, he should have done that. He should have had better judgement. The guy was insane. How do you reason with a mad man. There is now talk of gang connections, BS, to what what ends. That kind of talk is to deny the horror of the fighting in Iraq.
He was psycho and that's all there is to it. Must we deny that some duty in the Corps is mentally devastating. The only people basically qualified to pass judgement (pass judgement, not give an opinion) on this MARINE are those who have endured the total pressures of close combat. In Iraq, as in Vietnam, there are no front lines. Truck drivers, MP's, cannon cockers and infantry are subjected the same kind of stress. To begin each day wondering if you will be alive to see the sunset is stress such as the average person will never know.

[hrscowboy]

i concur dibob

[greensideout]

Good post CAR!

My heart goes out to his family and the familys of the police officers as well.

This PTSD idea that is so readily accepted now is really a bunch of bull as I see it.

How many went before him into battle? All the wars, WW-I, WW-II, Korea, Vietnam, The Gulf War and now Iraq.

My Dad served in WW-II as many did. He was up to his armpits in blood as many others were as well. They and veterans of other wars came home to build productive lives and a nation of progressive growth.

So, what is different now?

I think it might be the belly button effect. The "Me" generation kicked into high speed.

Did this young man think of the men he would kill and their familes or did he just think of himself? Was he in Iraq or just imitating what he has seen on TV or the movies?

Hello values!

Like it or not, when the Ten Commandments and God are taken from the foundation of learning you will, in my opinon begin to develop a problem called PTSD in our society.

It's nothing more then a lack of moral responsibility and careing as much for others as yourself.

PTSD---it's not about what it is but instead how you handle it.

[semperfimayer]

yes he still is a marine once a marine always a marine even though he shot a police he earn the tittle

[Toby M]

Well put Greensideout! Bottom line is, he might have died a Marine but he died without honor...(to me, that is the same as taking away my status as a Marine)

[marinehmm262]

as a police officer i think he is still a marine, if he killed a cop on active duty he will be striped of the title, if after he got out, as much as i dont like it he is still a marine.....

[Sophora]

God love you Marines and I hold you in the highest esteem. My Dad was a career Marine. He fought in Korea when I was just a gleam of the future in his eye. I was 6 going on 7 when he was in Nam in 65. The Man that came home was not my dad. Something changed in Nam, in war, in him and in me. I've talked to Marines of my dad's generation, before PTSD, when The Corps encouraged the Marines coming home from war to drink to forget. Today the Military is health minded, can't encourage you to drink to forget. After Dad retired from the Corps he became a cop. I have the deepest sorrow for the families of the Police Officer and the Marine. Was he and is he a Marine? You all are the judges in that. He F'ed up big time. Bottom line is he made it through Boot, he went to Iraq wheather at the front or behind, he did his duty. He came home and committed Murder by suicide. He was a Marine when he came home. He was a Marine when he killed and a Marine when he died. If the Corps wants to take his title away it will be after he is dead. It won't change the fact he was a Marine when he died. Did he dishonor the Corps? You decide. I say yes. Is it tragic, without a doubt. Could it have been prevented? We may never know.

[woodman]

This may p*ss some people off but I believe that this sorry individual deserves the title of cop killer and NOTHING else. He ambushed those officers and is putting the surviving officers through exactly what he couldn't hack. burry him with military honors ? might as well go spit on that officers grave and slap his family in the face.:mad:

[BHABIT]

This is a subject that will be debated through the millennia… however it is more the topic of “PERCEPTION”.

We as Marines are trained to kill… some depending on their MOS more skillfully than others. In which case that training as well as deployment and mission dictates mental response time to any perceived threat. As for wars and battlefields the lines start to become blurred. Marines that are deployed are not always in wars, conflicts or battlefields, and even within the aforementioned parameters are they tasked as well as constrained the same as the FMF.

It is understood and accepted that ALL Marines are on a need to know, therefore as “dibob” stated are not under the same stress as some. I do agree that normal stress levels run higher in combat situations, but being the same…no.

I do not know the Marine in question, nor have I heard of the incident, except of that I read here. I do know about death and killing…I’ve been told by society that killing is bad and death is inevitable. However to me when there is a threat there are NO titles, names, sex, age or any of the other acronyms that people hang on people… it’s just so many pounds of meat. I live my life in a threat level of orange and thanks to the mystical and misunderstood condition of PTSD can, will and have gone to red instantly. My Corps has trained and conditioned me well. I remain a tool in their arsenal.

There is never a day that I cast any blame for my condition and I would be honored to do the same again. My point is this…if you don’t know about PTSD, find out! Educate yourself. It took 33 years before it got me, and during that time I had my reservations about the validity too. But unless you have ever stood and had every sense in your body telling you that you are in a engagement and the person that you see in front of you is the enemy, only to find out it’s your wife or child, then you haven’t a clue.

I can’t speak for the other Marine killed a police officer… wrong?… yes. No less than if it would have been any other civilian. As Marines we conduct ourselves under the UCMJ as well as our Code of Honor. Under the UCMJ he would have been charged and tried, under our Code he’s still a Marine. As painful as it may be to have one of our own do this or anything else… we live by the Code, if we don’t then do we also make exceptions for other Marines on the battlefield? Do we look at one another and say one Marine is worth saving more than the other! Because of our Code we have responsibilities to one another, when these things happen we need to ask ourselves how did we let down our brother and make sure it never happens again.

Maybe Semper Fidelis is just a hollow term!!

[hrscowboy]

Thank you bhabit I agree with you whole hearted...

[hrscowboy]

symptoms of PTSD self medication ( drinking, druggin)

depression, aggravatied startle response, constantly checking boundaries where the subject lives, becomes totally outcasted to family and friends, will not leave his safe haven, short term memory loss, these are only a few..

[CAR]

Cowboy,
I undestand what your saying on this but I don't think it applies to this situation. I think the media and others involved too quickly labeled this to be a PTSD situation. The facts are that the kid was just on leave and was hanging with some of the old "bad" crowd. Went back to Pendelton, then went UA. Planned it , did it. He was high on coke when this went down. He preplanned what weapon to use. He told the attendant that he had been shot and to call the police. He waited around looking for the police. He engaged them as soon as he saw them. Then he evaded.

Sounds to me more like a kid wired on drugs not a Vet who happened tobe suffering from PTSD. This is has become a political issue and that truly is a shame. Maybe the kid did need help but from what I have read and been briefed on, it didn't sound like it. Politicians are already kicking this around like some football to score on the other side. Radio announcers are having a field day with it , especially the left. I feel sorry for this kid, i really do. I feel more sorry for the family of the Sgt who was killed for no F'n reason.

Marine? Unfortunately yes. That can't be taken away. Still human... Still make mistakes. i am just a bit reserved to chalk this up to PTSD. I attribute it more to poor judgement.

[greensideout]

Up front---no disrespect for anyone's views that are different then mine.

I have educated myself on PTSD. I almost laugh when I read the 'please understand' type of explaination for dumb a** acts that are excused by their view of PTSD.

This garbage is written by academics who have experienced a paper cut as their stress expericance. Someone needs to grab them by the stacking swivel and squeeze the living **** out of them so that they really UNDERSTAND STRESS! They will begin then to understand and re-write what it's about!

It's about having the guts to hold your sh*t together when the switch flips!

[Nagalfar]

BHABIT I think your right on target..

[hrscowboy]

Greenside there is no excuse what so ever for our government to put a young man back in combat a 2nd tour unless that veteran wants a second tour. There are some veterans in this world that barely handled the first tour let alone a 2nd tour or a 3rd. You would have thought they had learned that from the Vietnam War. weather this young man had PTSD or just a wire loose the stressor was still there he didnt want to go back and he made a statement to that effect. Some one from his unit should have been notified pronto of this mans statement. Now for your belief of PTDS being something of a phoney nature i direct your attention to the Topeka V.A. hospital which has one of the finest PTSD units in this country not alone with Minlow park calif and one in Minn. These are 90 day units that teaches the veteran to learn how to cope with everyday life since most of them havent dealt with it ever since they came home from combat. I am telling you this because this PTSD is one of my biggest fears, I have 2 sons in iraq in the Marine Corps fighting and i fear for them coming back to the United States and being treated the same way Us vietnam vets were treated. I can tell you this if anyone belittles this men for doing what they where asked to do they will feel the wrath of this COWBOY putting a 13 R boot up someones butt. enuff said.

[garryh123]

I mysefl am insane. Everyday I wanna grab my k-Bar and just start slicin people up. Being a Marine and former Deputy i would never kill a cop. The night time is worse yet i maintain control. I suck it up and try to stay strong. Sometimes mental illness makes you do things you do not normally do. I know. I'm living it.

[greensideout]

Many parts to your post cowboy. First, I give my prayers to your two son's safety, success of mission and return home.

I don't think that anything was learned from the Vietnam War by those in power, in fact I believe that the same mistakes are being made. With no draft now, to much is being asked of our men in service.

PTSD? I think that anyone that talked to a Marine would say that the Marine had it. The guidelines that define it discribes most Marines.

I'm all for helping people that need help but some act like fools claiming PTSD. They, (some) could use an old fashion butt kick'in. Others I beleive have other issues to deal with.

We are not going to change the past. Let's work on the future.

Semper Fi,
GSO

[drillinstructor]

what happened to Femalemarine_89 isnt she a police officer or something?

[garryh123]

What did she do that was so wrong?!

[hrscowboy]

heck i didnt know she did anything wrong at all??

[Toby M]

Drillinstructor, are you referring to getting a message that she was on your ignore list too? I got a message telling me she is on my ignore list and I did not put her on it-however you do it...

[drillinstructor]

Yes her post are on my ignore list and I didnt put anyone there...Well I dont think I did....

[SSgtOfMarines]

same same on the ignore list problem

[Old Marine]

The guy was on a suicide mission and accomplished it. It's a shame that he had to take a law enforcement officer with him.

[lucien2]

Originally posted by Old Marine
The guy was on a suicide mission and accomplished it. It's a shame that he had to take a law enforcement officer with him.

I agree with you on that point. Are Old Marine, the San Diego fan?

[Namvet67]

drillinstructor...fm89 is in law enforcement and would love to post but she was banned for posting something in a open thread that admin felt should have went to a pm...this is what I was told. I don't have anything to do with the control buttons on this site. By the way..fm is doing ok. I hope she can make her way back on line soon.

[lucien2]

Conduct unbecoming, no loyalty, no honor, f#@k him. I to have been in LE.

[Catz1611]

I saw this posted by another Marine on another board, thought ya'll might be interested in seeing it.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The Truth About The Cop-killing Marine

Michelle Malkin (archive)

January 19, 2005

If you watched the evening news a week ago, you may recall the sensational story of a distraught Marine who died in a murderous shootout with police. Anti-war writers and Latino activists have turned the cop-killer, Lance Cpl. Andres Raya, into a martyr. Don't believe the hype.

Network and cable TV shows repeatedly broadcast video and photo stills of Raya's Jan. 9 bloody gun battle in a Ceres, Calif., liquor store. Mental health experts immediately blamed post-traumatic stress disorder. Ignoring the cold-blooded murder of one of the ambushed police officers who was lured to his death, international headlines instead trumpeted the supposedly traumatized Raya:

Teenage War Veteran Committed Suicide 'By Cop'

Marine 'Committed Suicide by Cop to Avoid Iraq Return'

Kin of Marine Who Shot Policemen Ask if He Is a Casualty of War

Young Camp Pendleton Marine who shot officers did not want to go back to Iraq.

A far Left Web site, San Francisco Bay Area Indymedia.org, posted a complaint that the California legislature -- which lowered its flags to honor slain cop Sgt. Howard Stevenson -- was showing "no consideration [for the] young man whose life was ruined by military service."

La Voz de Aztlan, a radical fringe publication by Mexican nationalists, lionized Raya and demonized police:

"One can only speculate what horrors Andres Raya experienced in Fallujah. The slaughter by U.S. occupation forces of Iraqi civilians in Fallujah has been compared to the slaughter in Guernica by Nazi forces in 1937. Many U.S. Marines with a conscious (sic) have found it very difficult to reconcile the Iraqi civilian murders in their minds and have committed suicide. U.S. Marine Andres Raya decided to take some cops with him. Most probably he was harassed by them while growing up Mexican in this small northern California town." The paper also lambasted Raya's hometown, Ceres, as "a redneck town notorious for its mistreatment of his people."

Writing in the anti-war publication CounterPunch, Jack Random lamented Raya's death as "symbolic of the untold story of war. Hundreds of thousands of trained killers survive combat only to come home to a life for which they are no longer prepared. They have seen what men and women should never see. They have engaged in operations that brought them face to face with the death of innocent civilians, women and children."

The only elements missing in the bleeding-heart coverage of Raya's story were the soundtrack to "Platoon" and a bulk order of Kleenex. There's just one thing wrong with the sympathetic spin about the anti-war Marine. It's all dead wrong.

This much is true about Raya: The 19-year-old man did in fact serve with the Marines' 1st Intelligence Battalion's motor transport unit as a driver in Iraq.

But contrary to the impression left by initial media reports, Raya had never seen combat. And he was not headed back to Iraq. He had been transferred to a new unit scheduled for deployment to Okinawa. "During our investigation, we found he wasn't due to go back to Iraq, never faced combat situations and never even fired his gun," Stanislaus County Sheriff's Deputy Jason Woodman said.

Raya was high on cocaine at the time of the ambush, according to police reports. He was reportedly affiliated with the prison gang Nuestra Familia. Investigators found photos of Raya wearing gang colors and a shopping list in his bedroom safe that included body armor, assault rifles and ammunition. Authorities also discovered a video showing Raya smoking what appears to be marijuana and making gang sign gestures. The tape showed desecrated pieces of the American flag laid on a gymnasium floor to spell out expletives directed at President Bush.

Family members deny Raya's gang ties and blame the military. Meanwhile, Raya's neighborhood was decorated with anti-cop graffiti such as "Kill the Pigs" in his memory. And militant Hispanic residents celebrate Raya. Ceres resident Hilda Mercado told The New York Times that Raya "died like a true Mexican: He died standing on his feet."

The question isn't what got into Raya when he entered the military. The question is why and how Raya -- who police say had a propensity for violence well before he joined the Marines -- got into our military in the first place.

And now you know the rest of the story...

[geno456]

good job sarg