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View Full Version : Shooting in Iraq Mosque Angers Muslims



snipowsky
11-16-04, 05:49 PM
BAGHDAD, Iraq (AP) -- The fatal shooting of a wounded and apparently unarmed man in a Fallujah mosque by a U.S. Marine angered Sunni Muslims in Iraq on Tuesday and raised questions about the protection of insurgents once they are out of action.

International legal experts said the Marine may have acted in self-defense because of a danger that a wounded combatant might try to blow up a hidden weapon; a key issue was whether the injured man was a prisoner at the time.

The shooting happened Saturday, one day after the Marine, who has not been identified, was wounded in the face and after another man in his unit was killed by the booby-trapped body of an insurgent.

However, the incident could cause major political problems for the government of Prime Minister Ayad Allawi and his U.S. backers at a time when Iraqi authorities are seeking to contain a backlash among Sunnis to the invasion of the former insurgent stronghold of Fallujah.

American and Iraqi authorities tried to prevent rage from spreading among Sunnis, many of whom watched dramatic footage of the shooting that aired throughout the day on Al-Jazeera television, a Qatar-based satellite station. American stations did not show the killing itself.

"Look at this old man who was slain by them," said Ahmed Khalil, 40, as he watched the video in his Baghdad shop. "Was he a fighter? Was anybody who was killed inside this mosque a fighter? Where are their weapons? I don't know what to say."

It was unclear to what extent other Iraqis, particularly the majority Shiite Muslims, cared about the shooting.

Maysoun Hirmiz, 36, a Christian merchant in Baghdad, said she was not satisfied by an announcement by the U.S. military that it had removed the Marine from the battlefield and will investigate whether he acted in self defense.

Audio
Meyer reports Marine investigators face a lot of unanswered questions as they investigate the fatal shooting of a wounded man in Fallujah.

"They will say or do the same thing they did with the soldiers who committed the abuses against Iraqis detainees in Abu Ghraib prison, and they are still free, enjoying their lives while they destroyed other peoples' lives," Hirmiz said.

The central figures who allegedly carried out the physical abuse and sexual humiliation of inmates at the notorious prison west of Baghdad are currently on trial, facing trial or have already been sentenced.

The Abu Ghraib scandal, which erupted last spring when photos of the abuse became public, generated a worldwide wave of revulsion that raised questions about the treatment of Muslim prisoners in Iraq, Afghanistan and elsewhere as part of the Bush administration's war on terror.

The shooting in the Fallujah mosque became public Monday with the airing of the footage taken Saturday by pool correspondent Kevin Sites of NBC News. In his report, Sites said the man who was killed didn't appear to be armed or threatening in any way, with no weapons visible in the mosque.

In a statement Tuesday, the 1st Marine Division said it launched its investigation "to determine whether the Marine acted in self-defense, violated military law or failed to comply with the Law of Armed Conflict."

It was unclear from the statement whether the incident was reported through the chain of command Saturday or only when the pool footage became generally available two days later.

Sites said three other insurgents wounded Friday in the mosque were also shot again Saturday by the Marines.

International legal experts said protection of injured combatants once they are out of action is a basic rule in warfare but that the Marine shown in the video may have acted in self-defense.

Charles Heyman, a British infantry veteran and senior defense analyst with Jane's Consultancy Group in London, defended the Marine, saying soldiers are taught that the enemy "is at his most dangerous when he is severely injured."

Other experts contacted by The Associated Press were careful to avoid a public judgment because of the dangerous and uncertain situation in Fallujah, where U.S. troops were still fighting insurgents.

"It's clearly recognized that people in combat situations are under enormous strain," international Red Cross spokesman Florian Westphal said in Geneva. "Obviously, we were not on the spot so we cannot judge the precise circumstances of what was being shown here."

Westphal said the Geneva Conventions are clear: Protection of wounded combatants once they are out of action is an absolute requirement.

However, the status of the wounded man was unclear. A different Marine unit had come under fire from the mosque on Friday. Those Marines stormed the building, killing 10 men and wounding five, according to Sites. He said Marines treated the wounded and left them.

The same five men were in the mosque Saturday when Marines from another unit arrived. Westphal said he couldn't say for sure from NBC's account whether the man was a prisoner.

Heyman said there is a danger that a wounded enemy may try to detonate a hidden firearm or a grenade, and if the man made the slightest move "in my estimation they would be justified in shooting him."

However, legal distinctions are unlikely to carry much weight among many Iraqis, especially Sunnis already angry over the Fallujah offensive. Allawi said he ordered the assault after Fallujah's leaders refused to hand over Jordanian terror mastermind Abu Musab al-Zarqawi and other foreign fighters.

But Sunni militants saw the invasion of the city 40 miles west of Baghdad as a plot by the Americans and the Shiites, such as Allawi, against religious Sunnis - an allegation both governments deny.

"The troops not only violated our mosques with their sins and their boots but they stepped on our brothers' blood," said Khalil, the shop owner. "They are criminals and mercenaries. I feel guilty standing here and not doing anything."

At a news conference Tuesday, Iraqi Interior Minister Falah Hassan al-Naqib, himself a Sunni, said that although "killing a wounded person is rejected by us," Fallujah militants were "killers and criminals" who committed brutal acts.

That meant little to Hameed Farhan, 51, who works for the Transportation Ministry in Baghdad.

"I did not see it because there was no electricity at home, but my wife was at her parents and she described it for me," Farhan said. "She was crying. Tears welled up in my eyes. I wanted to scream."

http://hosted.ap.org/photos/N/NY11611160029-big.jpg

snipowsky
11-16-04, 05:53 PM
Oh no now they are angry? What comes around goes around diaperheads! And we aren't angry you have been beheading our people? What are these people thinking? They really don't get it!

airframesguru
11-16-04, 05:56 PM
New Headline:

Decapitation of hostages outrages Americans

or

9/11 Pi$$$ed of Americans

or

Train bombing in Madrid ...

Am I coming across as bitter? I know we are the bigger man here. We stick to UN, rules of war etc.., however I think Snipowsky siad it well.

mrbsox
11-16-04, 06:49 PM
I've posted before on this, about not knowing all the facts, AND having to trust or Marines, and soldiers, to make the decision of pulling the trigger or not.

Rules of engagement ??

Lets see, this 'yahoo' in the above article, is angry because WE, Americans, have defiled his Mosque?
1) Which nationality put weapons in there, making the Mosque just another building to seige?
2) Which group of people used this building as a weapons cache, making the Mosque just another building to seige?
3) Whom fired at our troops from this Mosque, making the Mosque just another building to seige?
Was he angry when the news came out about the Christian churches (don't recall exactly where) were bombed ?? Did'nt think so !! So, I don't want to hear any 'Holy ground' crap about the Mosque !!

P.O.W. status;
Non combatant, whom is IN CUSTODY, has been searched, cataloged, and is under guard and protection by the occupying force.
This guy was obviously NOT in custody, not guarded, and as such, should still rightly be considered a potential threat.

Maybe hind sight is 20/20 after all.
Maybe we should have just M.O.A.B.d the Fkn building, and we wouldn't have any more concerns from it's walls.

But, we didn't. We ARE Americans. We do care about the other man. We ARE human kind at heart. But we must ALSO protect ourselves, so that we can live to protect others. We MUST give our warriors the ability to make that call.

Bottom line.
Sh!t happens !! Now let the investigation do it's job.

No better friend, No worse enemy !!
Sounds like the Marine was following doctrine.

Terry

greensideout
11-16-04, 06:54 PM
One thing that seems to be consistant with the Sunni's. They never seem to get it! They probally never will. Talk about a narrow view of all thats goes on around them! I'm suprised that our troops can take anymore of their simple minded crap!

Toby M
11-16-04, 07:24 PM
I want to hear their "outrage" now that news of Hassan's murder is out. I want to hear them ask where her weapons were or if she was given the oppotunity to defend herself. I want to hear someone speak for this woman who gave her life to help them. I'm sure there won't be a peep heard!!

Sgted
11-16-04, 08:25 PM
Originally posted by Toby M
I want to hear their "outrage" now that news of Hassan's murder is out. I want to hear them ask where her weapons were or if she was given the oppotunity to defend herself. I want to hear someone speak for this woman who gave her life to help them. I'm sure there won't be a peep heard!!

30 years Mrs. Hassan lived in Iraq helping the people through Care International.
Allahs cowards killed her.

As is the norm, you will not, repeat, will not hear an outcry from the muslim community. Not even that community here in the USA where these people reap the benefits of democracy which includes freedom of speech.
Even if they are not citizens.

The silence is deafening !!.

May this poor helpless woman rest in peace.

greensideout
11-16-04, 09:08 PM
When this war began I made the comment, "An Arab is an Arab is an Arab".

I lumped their thinking together as to appear that they were of like mind and that was what I meant to bring forth.

I was told something to the effect of, "that was no way to win hearts and minds".

Well, how are we doing? They "hearts and minds" seem self (arab) focused don't you think?

So, how do we win them over?

As I said before, it will take a generation of re-education to teach them that another way of life for them is out there.

How long the war? If we go the course, till change is made it will be 10 to 20 years.

Is it worth it? I'm not sure it is.

Sgted
11-16-04, 10:52 PM
Originally posted by greensideout
............I was told something to the effect of, "that was no way to win hearts and minds".

Well, how are we doing? They "hearts and minds" seem self (arab) focused don't you think?

So, how do we win them over?.............

Maybe.....just maybe moderate Muslims (Arabs, Islamics, etc) can learn to accept our way of life, liberty, the persuit of happiness, religious freedom and the diverse culture that is America.
The extremists....forget it.
We are the infidels....period !!
We either convert to Islam or we die. There is one way and only one way when it comes to "winning the hearts and minds" of these people.
Their way or death !!
There is NO reasoning when a culture or society has such blind beliefs.

You think any, and I mean ANY Middle Eastern country is teaching the American culture with any degree of tolerance and truth ??.
You think people who use a religious book as their constitution really care ??

I'm sick of feel good America.
It's time to use an iron fist.

d c taveapont
11-16-04, 11:33 PM
IS it worth it????????.........not sure!!!!!!!!.....will the CiC thinks so......and after HOW many more deaths......can't really say...... the mold has already been cast......now live with it....since we stepped in it....hell we might as will walk in it....NO time for 2nd guessing now....

greensideout
11-17-04, 01:15 PM
Originally posted by d c taveapont
IS it worth it????????.........not sure!!!!!!!!.....will the CiC thinks so......and after HOW many more deaths......can't really say...... the mold has already been cast......now live with it....since we stepped in it....hell we might as will walk in it....NO time for 2nd guessing now....


I made my comments at the begining of the campaign with much less info then the administration had and had no trouble seeing where this was going. No, not second guessing.

You are right, we are knee deep in doo with no turning back.

Considering this to be the situation, I support the fight necessary to win, but I don't have to blindly accept that the Iraqi people are worth the cost of America's best!

Toby M
11-17-04, 04:09 PM
I don't care for this language but this time, I say F*** that country and its' people! They don't deserve what we are giving and sacrificing!

DSchmitke
11-17-04, 04:46 PM
So mosque are off limits for Americans. But a safe area for the towelheads

Sgt. Smitty
11-18-04, 07:59 PM
Ya don't fight terrorists by the Geneva Convention.......unless you're stupid!!

greensideout
11-18-04, 08:15 PM
Originally posted by Sgt. Smitty
Ya don't fight terrorists by the Geneva Convention.......unless you're stupid!!

Well, that sums it up for the most part!

John Ashcroft also knows this well but he sure did take a lot of flak from those that don't have a clue!

Lock-n-Load
11-18-04, 08:16 PM
:marine: I never gave a fiddler's f**k about any Muslim enemy of America...since we liberated these ungratful crud of cruds...they have bayoneted us in the back time after time...throw in the entire American media embedded in fighting units as back stabbing SOBs all the way down to the photo-op guy called ..Seitz...too bad he didn't get ...a stitch...from a Marine M-60 gunner...too bad!!...I pray like a bastard the US Marine Generals in the Pentagon don't sellout this gallant combat Marine who was assidiously trained to do...once commited to close combat...those Marine Generals better have "stones"..they are on the clock, now!!.:marine:

hrscowboy
11-19-04, 12:59 AM
after seeing that long hair of sites i need to round me up some native americans and all of us just ride over to iraq and scalp that chump... Who will give me 20.00 for sites scalp???

Sgt. Smitty
11-20-04, 11:56 AM
There is a post somewhere in here for a free 4x4 to the first American with a confirmed kill of a raghead, this good lookin truck should be shipped to that Marines house and be waitin for him when he comes home.