Marine Corps Debate Team

[Debate_god21]

I am currently in the process of helping together a Marine Corps Debate Team. This is an excellent chance for Marines to expand their mind, in my opinion. My CO, our SMP coordinator and myself are currently in the process of trying to get this off the ground. Any thoughts?

[HardJedi]

well, here's a thought. Don't let your EGO get in the way! LOL (referring to your screen name, of course)


other than that, good luck

[yellowwing]

Participation is going to make or break you. It's good that your Command supports it. What about the SNCOs?

Coming up with good topics would draw interest. Talk your buddies into it, buy them a beer. When they see how fun and challenging it is they'll stay with it.

Dang! These young Marine's are showing alot of leadership and initiative. We got LivinSoFree dining with a Colonel, now Debate is setting this up.

Must be a product of our Leatherneck guidance and support!

[Debate_god21]

Originally posted by yellowwing
Participation is going to make or break you. It's good that your Command supports it. What about the SNCOs?

Coming up with good topics would draw interest. Talk your buddies into it, buy them a beer. When they see how fun and challenging it is they'll stay with it.

Dang! These young Marine's are showing alot of leadership and initiative. We got LivinSoFree dining with a Colonel, now Debate is setting this up.

Must be a product of our Leatherneck guidance and support!

Absolutely!

SNCOs know about it, but only a little. I'm getting ready to present a full presentation to my entire command. Topics, also, will have Marine Corps interest as well as topics in the national forum.

[greensideout]

Well, I do see some changes being made in the more educated Marine Corps of today.

Back when, if we had the time we would go to the club, sing some songs, drink some beer and fight.

But today it's, go to the club, debate, drink some beer and fight.

Just having fun with your idea. :)

Good luck on setting up the team. Ah, who will you debate?

[HardJedi]

Be carefull who you choose to debate. they MAy choose to rebut with a few well placed rounds from an M-16 :D

[Osotogary]

Debate_god21,
I hope that everything works out well for you and your efforts. I would love to see and here a debate about Rules of Engagement between SNCO's and the Legal Staff especially in relation to guerilla warfare. I'd also be interested in knowing what the rules for debate would be and also who would make those rules.
Good luck to you.
Osotogary (Gary)

[CAR]

Suggestion:
Rule #1: Check all weapons at the door.

Good idea debate- good luck

[Debate_god21]

Originally posted by Debate_god21


Absolutely!

SNCOs know about it, but only a little. I'm getting ready to present a full presentation to my entire command. Topics, also, will have Marine Corps interest as well as topics in the national forum.

Marines will debate other Marines, respectfully seperating enlisted and officer ranks, for courtesy.

If local colleges wish to participate, then we will let them, under certain conditions (conditions that will prevent conflict between civilian and military personnel).

[Debate_god21]

Originally posted by Osotogary
Debate_god21,
I hope that everything works out well for you and your efforts. I would love to see and here a debate about Rules of Engagement between SNCO's and the Legal Staff especially in relation to guerilla warfare. I'd also be interested in knowing what the rules for debate would be and also who would make those rules.
Good luck to you.
Osotogary (Gary)

An outstanding suggestion, if I may say so myself. I will take that into serious consideration, and bring it up as a possible topic for debate to my CO.

[Debate_god21]

Any more suggestions for this project? I'm trying to make the final touches on my presentation to our CO.

[decuervo]

Greensideout
hahahaha! It has always been go to the club, get drunk, get into a debate (over anything, usually something stupid like a pool game) and get in a fight. Usually with the airforce or navy, but if they weren't around we'd fight each other to pass the time.

[Debate_god21]

My CO has approved the project! Thanks for all your input. I hope this is a very worthwhile project for the Marine Corps!

[Skinnypup]

Healthy debate is good, but I can think of a lot of other things that Marines should be doing. I assume that this would be "off duty"? I will also assume that your unit is Logistical or Admin... too much time on your hands.
I see direct orders by superiors wanting to be debated by subordinates. Not good for the Marine Corps.

Rule #1- We do not debate in the Marine Corps
Rule #2- We do not debate in the Marine Corps
Rule #3- We do not debate in the Marine Corps

[Namvet67]

debate..n. v.t. discuss; argue ; consider; take part in a discussion; discussion of opposing views. Reminds me of some stories I heard about the Army in Vietnam. When ordered to take the hill by the CO a debate broke out among the enlisted men about the order. I agree with you Skinnypup....debate is not good for the Marine Corps.

[Skinnypup]

Originally posted by gbudd
debate..n. v.t. discuss; argue ; consider; take part in a discussion; discussion of opposing views. Reminds me of some stories I heard about the Army in Vietnam. When ordered to take the hill by the CO a debate broke out among the enlisted men about the order. I agree with you Skinnypup....debate is not good for the Marine Corps.

You're right SSgt. gbudd... decisive decisions (in combat) have no time for debate. Marines are trained warriros, taught to follow direct, lawful orders. If debating were a normal thing in the Marine Corps, it would take away the effectiveness of a commanding officer, SNCO or NCO, and junior Marines would question everything.

[yellowwing]

I think there is an apples and oranges difference between questoining orders in action and a Base Side Debate Club.

If structured correctly, a debate club can train young Marines to think and be creative, and ehance self confidence and leadership.

And if by chance, if one of these lads tries debate skills out in the field, our NCOs would squash in a heart beat.

[Skinnypup]

Originally posted by yellowwing
I think there is an apples and oranges difference between questoining orders in action and a Base Side Debate Club.

If structured correctly, a debate club can train young Marines to think and be creative, and ehance self confidence and leadership.

And if by chance, if one of these lads tries debate skills out in the field, our NCOs would squash in a heart beat.

I agree yellowing. But that can be done on a smaller unit level. Not a "Marine Corps Debate Team." What are they going to debate? Food in the chowhall? Domestic / Foreign Policy issues? Gay rights movement? What? And what would be the purpose? Marine Corps has regulations, manuals & certain tactics... a good squad leader / team leader teaches his Marines to think independently and critically. This has been proven throughout Marine Corps history, without debate teams. Self confidence and leadership in a debate, does not translate to effectiveness in the field.

[yellowwing]

It is up to Debate_god21 to show that it has a positive contribution. Evidently he has succeded. Bully for him, I say.

From his comments on this discussion, I think he has focused just on his current billet, not USMC wide.

"Self confidence and leadership in a debate, does not translate to effectiveness in the field." - Your may be right, John Kerry just proved that! :banana:

[Skinnypup]

Originally posted by yellowwing
It is up to Debate_god21 to show that it has a positive contribution. Evidently he has succeded. Bully for him, I say.

From his comments on this discussion, I think he has focused just on his current billet, not USMC wide.

"Self confidence and leadership in a debate, does not translate to effectiveness in the field." - Your may be right, John Kerry just proved that! :banana:

True!
But really, a "Marine Corps Debate Team"? I see Marines requesting "field duty exemption" because they have a debate scheduled during "field ops" week. Or during CAX (Combined Arms Exercise)

[Ed Palmer]

IS THIS DE BAIT THAT CATFISH LIKE OR IS IT FOR CARP

[yellowwing]

Hey! We can start a Marine Corps Fishing Team! Could we use the MK3A2 concussion grenade? :)

[Debate_god21]

I know how you two must feel, but rest assured, this is a healthy forum, and an "off-duty" activity, where Marines can discuss and argue sensibly about topics of national interest (such as the electoral college, the legalization of medicinal marijuana, etc.), not a place where they'll be insubordinate to their superiors. In no way, shape or form will that be tolerated. I only wished to start this project because I wanted to help out my fellow Marines. I feel public speaking is a good thing to pick up. It helps you assert yourself (especially important for NCOs and Officers alike), plus it is a good skill to have should you decide to leave the Marine Corps. My CO has also informed about the logistics of having such an organization in the Marine Corps. He is a lawyer, after all. I believe this will worthwhile for the Marine Corps. If we have a chess team, why not a debate team. We need to be mentally fit as well as physically fit. This will help Marines also learn critical thinking skills. They need to be able to think on their feet should the need arise. As a Marine, this trait is very important, especially on the battlefield.

And "I will also assume that your unit is Logistical or Admin... too much time on your hands."?

That is not fair at all. Let's say I assume you're infantry. Now that would be called "stigma," and stigma is a defined as a degrading mark towards a certain group of people. We know that a lot of people outside the Marine Corps see Infantry Marines as stupid. I've met some brilliant infantrymen in the short time I've been in. I want to help get rid of that stigma that people have. This is a much more worthwhile activity for Marines than sitting around drinking all night or getting into trouble or both. Yes, I am with a headquarters company, but I want all Marines to be involved with this! I have an infantryman that loves the idea and wants to give it a shot. This is not to make anyone feel stupid, it's meant to educate and help Marines excel. Look at these way: PT helps the body become stronger; this will help the Marines grow wiser and learn about what's going on around them. I see Marines all the time sit around and complain about something they hardly know about!

"debate..n. v.t. discuss; argue ; consider; take part in a discussion; discussion of opposing views."

It looks like you only saw the words argue and opposing in that definition. The key words are discuss and consider. Argue is the most extreme word to use with debate. Debate is a way to find out which of anything is more beneficial to a certain party or group.

"Reminds me of some stories I heard about the Army in Vietnam. When ordered to take the hill by the CO a debate broke out among the enlisted men about the order."

You know this would not happen in the Marine Corps. The above is the Army. And we know how nasty they are.

Alright, I'm done with my soapbox rant... and I apologize if I offended you in any way, shape or form. I just meant to enlighten you on this whole thing. And besides, it's good debate practice for me! Thanks for that!

[enviro]

Stick around here Debate_god21, I'm sure you will find it fascinating and a great place to hone your skills.

[Debate_god21]

Originally posted by yellowwing
It is up to Debate_god21 to show that it has a positive contribution. Evidently he has succeded. Bully for him, I say.

From his comments on this discussion, I think he has focused just on his current billet, not USMC wide.

"Self confidence and leadership in a debate, does not translate to effectiveness in the field." - Your may be right, John Kerry just proved that! :banana:

That is correct, this will be just at my company's level for now, but I wanted to share the idea, so that someone might pick up the idea and emulate it!

[Debate_god21]

Originally posted by enviro
Stick around here Debate_god21, I'm sure you will find it fascinating and a great place to hone your skills.

lol

[Debate_god21]

Originally posted by Skinnypup


True!
But really, a "Marine Corps Debate Team"? I see Marines requesting "field duty exemption" because they have a debate scheduled during "field ops" week. Or during CAX (Combined Arms Exercise)

I assure you, this will not interfere with training. Marines are Marines first and foremost.

[Skinnypup]

Sorry d_god21... Just do not agree with having a "Marine Corps Debate Team" You asked, we're telling you. Enviro was right, "Stick around here and hone your skills" I'll even give you some practice... (Better have your CO behind you to help you out, because I don't mess around)

1.) I don't care if there is a chess team, polo club, or a compassionate Marine club... No need for a debate team, to talk about issues that are talked about throughout our society before one enlists or after they serve. Now I am for a debate club, if they are debating military tactics, regulations, etc.

2.) Public speaking is a good skill. Which is available in public / private schools, colleges. In which I took 2 years of Speech & Debate while in high school... Didn't need the Marine Corps to teach me. Also, Marines can publicly speak or practice while teaching a "call for fire" class or classes pertaining to their MOS. This will also help with their confidence. Marine Corps mission is not Policy, or to teach public speaking skills, or to debate current events, medicinal marijuana (zero drug tolerence...what's there to debate?), etc.

3.) Do you really think Marines are going to commit themselves (while off duty) to participate in Debate Club? And for how long?

4.) There is no stigma. There are dumb Marines and smart Marines, as long as they know their job it does not matter what their IQ is.

I commend your endeavor to start this project, and who knows it might succeed. No offense taken

[Debate_god21]

A rebuttal to your arguement:

1) Tactics has been suggested to me before, by one of the officers in my office, and I thought it was a great idea, and so I brought it up to my CO and he agreed later on. Marines are also a powerful voting group as well, if they want to vote, they should educated on the issues that affect while still serving their country and after they end their service.

2) We both know that some Marines (any many people in general) are afraid to talk to other people in a public setting, so things that are pertinent are left out and nothing is ever changed.

3) I do believe Marines will commit themelves to such an organization. It's instilled in them to be committed. I pray that this team will last a long time. Besides, it's not just my command that's doing this. There are other bases looking into this debate team.

4) I disagree. The stigma of what people think of us on the outside is what draws in "bad attention." I am a combat correspondent, so I have to deal with those crappy journalists that barely do their job, and those that base their facts on opinions. Journalists are very powerful. They can inspire many people to believe something that isn't true. It is something I have to deal with daily.

I appreciate your compliments. And no offense taken. Like I said earlier, I seek to enlighten.

[greensideout]

Debate? Why? Things are as normal. We know that Marine is as acronym by which we our proud to live! :D

Muscles
Are
Required
Intelligence
Not
Essential

[Debate_god21]

*sigh...* I can tell this is going to be a very arduous and steep uphill battle... But, still, I won't give up on this at all! I know this is a good project!

[greensideout]

You are doing well grasshopper, look at how much interest you have in your humble idea. ;)

[Debate_god21]

Originally posted by greensideout
You are doing well grasshopper, look at how much interest you have in your humble idea. ;)

Thanks! That motivates me even more!!

[greensideout]

I said interest, not that it was all positive!

Imagining Marines in a "civil debate" is to me, like imagining Dolly Pardon being a ballerina!

[Debate_god21]

Hey, I'lll take any comment at this point. If it's good, great! If it's bad, I'll rebut. That is the nature of the beast, debate.

[greensideout]

Your time may be best spent on a rifle or pistol team.

You don't debate the enemy, but the other skills work well!

Debate that!

[DSchmitke]

There is more to life and the Marine Corps than a debate team.

[greensideout]

Originally posted by DSchmitke
There is more to life and the Marine Corps than a debate team.

Ok? And what would that be?

[yellowwing]

That close with and destroy the enemy thing?

Now really, this young lad showed some leadership and initiative. I give him good marks for that and fully support him.

[Osotogary]

I, personally, have not seen the word "arduous" used on this site for in or around two years. LOL. I think that everyone here has given this young man a lot of food for thought which, in a way, is what debates are all about. Seems to me that alot of us kind of debated his topic already.

[greensideout]

Right Gary, that was what it was all about.

He has an idea and is up and running with it.

He has tested it's merit and now can decide to go with it or not.

Lots of input, now it's his call.

[yellowwing]

I think this young lad has proven his point already. We have had 3 pages of debate on this topic already.

It really is a stoke of luck that his CO is a lawyer type. When I had the opportunity to get a part time job as a lifeguard at the base pool, my CO had been the captain of his college swim team. He approved my request immediately, even thoug it meant I had to leave my regular duties 20 minutes early 3 times a week.

The Marine Corps benefit was that the next PFT after my lifeguard stint, I scored a very high 1st class PFT.

Heck, his peers that do well in the debate club might make outstanding future USMC Recruiters.

Make the most of your luck, I say!

[Debate_god21]

Originally posted by greensideout
Your time may be best spent on a rifle or pistol team.

You don't debate the enemy, but the other skills work well!

Debate that!

While a rifle or pistol is an excellent way to help increase range scores, a debate team helps Marines excel by letting them research into topics of interest or learn to strategize during different situations. As Marines, strategy is the key to winning wars, not just the rifle. The rifle is useless without a plan of action. Marines participating in the team will have to learn how to organize their thoughts in order to succeed. Organized thoughts win wars.

[Debate_god21]

Originally posted by yellowwing
That close with and destroy the enemy thing?

Now really, this young lad showed some leadership and initiative. I give him good marks for that and fully support him.


Heck, his peers that do well in the debate club might make outstanding future USMC Recruiters.

Make the most of your luck, I say!

Thank you for your support! I'll do my best not to let you down!

[Skinnypup]

Originally posted by Debate_god21


While a rifle or pistol is an excellent way to help increase range scores, a debate team helps Marines excel by letting them research into topics of interest or learn to strategize during different situations. As Marines, strategy is the key to winning wars, not just the rifle. The rifle is useless without a plan of action. Marines participating in the team will have to learn how to organize their thoughts in order to succeed. Organized thoughts win wars.

Man what are you doing in the Corps? Everything you just said Marines are and have been doing. It's called "training." Tell this to the Marines in Afghanistan and Iraq. Ask them if they researched into topics of interest or different strategies, and discussed it... (only a zillion times)You should figure out, the rest of your post is and how the Corps has been doing things for quite some time. It's a shame you don't know of this already:(

[Debate_god21]

Exactly, this is an effective training tool for Marines as well. What am I doing in the Corps? I'm a combat correspondent (and I love my job) and I'm doing my job. I complete my mission by helping spread truth to Marines, in the form of research. Secondly, I'm trying to help out with troop welfare. This is also a fun way for Marines to stay out of trouble or go out and drink themselves stupid (as we know many Marines do).

You add on to my point by your argument on strategy. What war was ever won by everyone just storming in everywhere without a plan of action against the enemy? I'll ask Marines in Afganistan and Iraq about strategies and they'll probably tell me that an effective way to win the war on terrorism is to strategize and plan, not kill everyone they see.

One more arguement I'll throw in here is that this is a good leadership tool as well. This was the aspect that intrigued those I talked to in the beginning about the project.

This is, in no way, going to hurt the Corps. My hope was to help out the Corps. I'm just trying to be a good Marine and help out my fellow Marines. When Marines get out of the Corps, I want them to feel like they gained some knowledge about the world around them and step out of their shell.

I might also say, "Don't knock it, till you've tried it..."

You wanna know why I'm doing this? Holly Smith, my debate coach from high school and middle school passed away this year, as well as two of my friends from debate. I want to pass on a love for public speaking that they treasured. Each of them wanted to change the world and make it a better place. I'm doing this so I won't let them down... They each held a special place in my heart. They're watching and counting on me. This is why I'm doing this.

[yellowwing]

Okay Skinnypup, just for the sake of the excercise of debate, what is more important to the head of household of a Fallujah patriach?

A) You are not there to rape his daughters, or B) You are not there to raid his small collection of gold. Or C) You just want to know where the Fedeyeen are positioned.

You and your interpretor, if you are lucky to have one, have 4 seconds to defuse the situation before lead starts to fly.

As a future squad leader Debate_god21 and his young peers need a process and training to figure out how to keep most of his team alive. Some rag head farmer capping his SMAW gunner is not an good end result.

We've all read the recent action reports, the NCOs on the squad level are THE Marine Corps. The two minutes to ask a BN CO is just too late.

In '83 Unit Commanders wating 10 minutes to get clearance to fire back at Lebanonese Hamas was freakin' ludicrous.

This debate thing is a good traiing process for young Marines to make these decisions, that do matter in the heat of action. A confident Marine with specific set goals will not be defeated.

[HardJedi]

hey ,ANYTHING that helps ANYONE learn to think, either better or more, is a good idea. I doubt if too many grunts or combat Marines would be joining this little team, though. not that there aren't alot of smart 03's, just most of em I knew wouldn't want to do this kind of thing. course, times HAVE changed ;)

[Debate_god21]

Thank you. yellowwing brings up a good arguement for my side of this arguement. Sometimes quick thinking and decisive action will save the day. Charging a position is not always the best course of action. Like I have been saying, debate teaches quick thinking.

HardJedi brings up a good point as well. Anything that helps educate Marines is always what the Marine Corps looks for. Look how many MCIs there are, for example. A lot of them are meant for infantry Marines. Although I agree some 03s might not be interested, this is still a greater good for a good majority, also known as "utilitarianism." This will help out Marines in a way that the Marine Corps needs most. We need fast-thinking Marines. Because stuff goes downhill like *snap* that.

Besides, we don't want any of our brothers over in any conflict dying due to poor judgement or a lack of critical thinking. I, for one, want all of our Marines to complete the mission without having to resort to shooting a single round. Remember, we're trying to help people. We are here to protect people. And I know there will be times that we will have to fight. That is an unavoidable fate none of us can escape.

[greensideout]

Originally posted by Debate_god21


Besides, we don't want any of our brothers over in any conflict dying due to poor judgement or a lack of critical thinking. I, for one, want all of our Marines to complete the mission without having to resort to shooting a single round. Remember, we're trying to help people. We are here to protect people. And I know there will be times that we will have to fight. That is an unavoidable fate none of us can escape.


Hum-m, have I been asleep for 40 years or has the mission of a basic rifleman changed to "not shooting a single round" to complete a mission?

If the Marines are called in it is usually because the situation has reduced to FIRE FIGHT REQUIRED or we would just send in some talking heads.

Your basic premise is that we talk our way out of the mess. The fact is, when the Marines arrive the talking is over!

[yellowwing]

Well the current house to house searches for insurgents and weapons do not alway yield enemy combatants in every household.

Of course our Marines are ready willing and able to cut loose and empty magazines if need be. We are second to none on that aspect.

But, I think we do need our lads to have good communication skills. Taking out a whole family over a misunderstanding will not do well to win cooperation from the semi-friendly locals.

Remember that 8 year old kid that helped our troops identify known insurgents in his neighborhood. Would that Iraqi youngster been so helpful if we had mistakenly killed his whole family?

The debate team will not take away any essential training of our primary mission. Any additional training of any sort is positive.

[greensideout]

lol---Ok, then you are saying that if Marines learn to debate, whole familes will not be killed---lol. I don't think that is the point!

Debate is fine, it's like chess or playing cards. It has little or nothing to really do with a Marine's mission or skills for the task that he would be involved in.

Some are good at chess and some are good at cards. Some can even be good at debate but tell me when you really have time for any of these in combat? Or do things move slower now then they used to?

[cpl_daley]

well, then let it not be a debate between only Marines, debate against the other services.. that would be fun!

[Debate_god21]

That's one of the ideas for the future. We may also debate college students.

[yellowwing]

No-no-no! Enemies that need a good killin' will get their just rewards, ASAP! I'm saying training our lads to more effectively communicate is a good thing.

Do you want these youngster to half-ass pass on orders to a dozen Marines if they can't get across basic points that affect the mission.

Essential training will not be missed. Our Marines will always be prepared to take care of the ugly business.

But look at our Mission in Iraq. We are all up in arms that the Media in not reporting very much on the community reconstruction projects we are a part of. Part of that takes communication skills.

Our units are required to either help rebuild a school in Basra or get ready to earn the Fallujah Battle Streamer to our Marine Corps flag.

We are asking more and more of our young Marines and have alsways been laying major responsibllites on our NCO and SNCOs.

Training, training, training. Working on getting a 3 inch grouping at 200 meters is first and formost for our Marines. That will never change

Just as the Field Manuals and training excercises keep redeveloping to meet the current need, effective comunication and critical thinking might prove themselves as essential subjects.

Who knows, our innovate lad DG21 may earn a Navy Achivement, for coming up with a valuable USMC contribution.

Let me throw this out, for the sake of this debate. We have many Marines that are now Professional Law Enforcement.

I would like to hear their input on the development and training of personal communications skills. They constantly serve in a potentially hostile environment, and they certainly don't shoot first and ask questions later.

And I'm sure that there are areas is Iraq that are actually safer than in our country!


(Chr*stsakes DG21, you got me caught up with all this critical thinking debate fever!)

[Debate_god21]

Wow. That is all I can say...

Yellowwing, you have given me so much information that helps me support my cause. I am truly grateful for all you have said.

[yellowwing]

Just don't forget that the critizism and Devil's Advocate positions of our skeptical Brothers are a vital part of this debate process.

I've been around Leathernck.com a mere two years. Believe me, we don't pull any punches when it comes to strong beliefs!

And we would not have it any other way! :marine:

[Debate_god21]

Justi the way I like it! Man, you would have made one heck of a debate partner!

[greensideout]

There ya go yellowwing, ratting me out as a devil's advocate! ;)

DG21, I was hoping to bring debate from you in defense of your project but you must not have thought that my input was worthy of your comment---whatever---good luck and have some fun putting it together. :)

[Debate_god21]

Sorry about that greensideout, I've been on and off the internet all day today. I haven't really been online but I appreciate you playing devil's advocate. It helps me think of ways to further strengthen my arguement for the project. Thank you!

[Skinnypup]

Originally posted by Debate_god21
Thank you. yellowwing brings up a good arguement for my side of this arguement. Sometimes quick thinking and decisive action will save the day. Charging a position is not always the best course of action. Like I have been saying, debate teaches quick thinking.

HardJedi brings up a good point as well. Anything that helps educate Marines is always what the Marine Corps looks for. Look how many MCIs there are, for example. A lot of them are meant for infantry Marines. Although I agree some 03s might not be interested, this is still a greater good for a good majority, also known as "utilitarianism." This will help out Marines in a way that the Marine Corps needs most. We need fast-thinking Marines. Because stuff goes downhill like *snap* that.

Besides, we don't want any of our brothers over in any conflict dying due to poor judgement or a lack of critical thinking. I, for one, want all of our Marines to complete the mission without having to resort to shooting a single round. Remember, we're trying to help people. We are here to protect people. And I know there will be times that we will have to fight. That is an unavoidable fate none of us can escape.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but you and "yellowing" just keep breaking off into different, hypothetical tangents... Everything both you and he suggested, IS and should already be taking place amongst the small units. Try spending a week or two with Line Companies. Immediate Action drills teaches quick thinking in hypothetical situations. (I hope line companies are still practicing this??) Hey D_g21... try writing a "patrol order" or sit with a Squad Leader / Team Ldr. while they are writing one. There is an action for everything conceivable. If you haven't noticed already, "War" is unpredictable. I do not recall there being a manual for fighting today's "War on Terror" This is new, and will constantly change as it progresses. SOP's will constantly change.
I just do not see the need for a Marine Debate Team, as debate is going on amongst Marines on a daily basis, on such topics you are suggesting. I served from 1994-1998 and we debated issues from "creation of man" to "rifle cleaning" And you're damn right we debated / discussed everything during training. It's common sense, and Marines know to maximize their effectiveness.
You and 'yellowing" keep referring to "communication skills" In the Marine Corps it's called, "Chain of Command" not "Interpersonal Relationships"! Debate and effective communication is two different things. To say that our military isn't already participating in such discussion, would be undermining them!

[yellowwing]

"Mr. Speaker, I will yield my two minutes to DG_21, for him to address this latest challenge." ;)

[HardJedi]

Hmmm. Skinnypup makes some good points.

Although, he seems dead set AGAINST a debate team. Why? there would be no harm in it, and if it was public, itCOULD help to dispel the " dumb Marine" myth. ;)

[yellowwing]

Hey, hey, hey! It was DG_21's turn. He needs the practice! You are out of order, Sir! yuk-yuk ;)

[Debate_god21]

*cracks his knuckles*

For starters, I spent a week with Recon. I know how infantry Marines think. Immediate action drills may teach critical thinking, but critical thinking and effective communication are two entirely different beasts. Critical thinking means you know how to do something, whereas effective communication means you know how to divulge that "how" to other Marines.

You're right, there is is an action for everything conceivable. There just isn't the know-how or discussion for all these actions.

You say interpersonal relationships like I'm trying to start a Marine Corps dating service or we would start saying "Hey Bob!" at work to each other. Not so. We will not be undermining authority at all here. That isn't what I'm after. Like I said earlier, this is a forum for Marines to discuss issues with other Marines in an educated fashion, rather than gossip or hearsay. I must stress this: debate is not confrontational in nature; argumentation is.

You say war is unpredictable. This is true. Effective communication skills and critical thinking application are what I'm trying to teach more Marines. As Marines, we don't want to be followers. We're always stressing that we need leaders. Good leaders are also good communicators and fast thinkers, for the sake of their Marines. To be a leader, you don't have to be a General, Captain, Sergeant Major or a Corporal. A good leader has the above traits, and could even be a Private. I'll stress that we need good leaders, especially in the lower ranks.

In closing, I would like to thank you again for providing ample material for which to debate on. I'm always appreciative of a good debate. Thank you and I urge you to vote in affirmation of today's resolution!

[yellowwing]

For starters, I spent a week with Recon. I know how infantry Marines think.
The rest was pretty good, but I got to give you a grade of C-minus on that opening remark.

One week with recon is not going to convince many doubters who have spent WAY more than one week in the field.

[Skinnypup]

Originally posted by HardJedi
Hmmm. Skinnypup makes some good points.

Although, he seems dead set AGAINST a debate team. Why? there would be no harm in it, and if it was public, itCOULD help to dispel the " dumb Marine" myth. ;)

It wouldn't hurt, just pointless. I don't buy the "dumb Marine" myth. Everyone has their strengths & weakness's, and processes information differently. My argument against having a debate club or team, is no need for one; as long as leaders are doing their job. To say otherwise is undermining the leadership throughout the Corps. It is every citizens or military personnel 's job to stay informed, educated and ontop of today's issues.What would my employer say if I approached him to start a Debate Team for the company?

[Skinnypup]

You're right, there is is an action for everything conceivable. There just isn't the know-how or discussion for all these actions.
You are incorrect D_g21! In a perfect, rhetorical world that would fly. But combat is not perfect, and impossible to "know-how" everything. And this applies to your whole argument.

[Debate_god21]

Originally posted by yellowwing

The rest was pretty good, but I got to give you a grade of C-minus on that opening remark.

One week with recon is not going to convince many doubters who have spent WAY more than one week in the field.

I guess that's is right, but at least I'm blind as to how they do think. If even I am just a pogue, I'll try to understand. Skinnypup's arguement is that I have no idea what a grunt thinks like. Marines are Marines regardless. We should have a good idea what each other is thinking, but we don't. My mistake. Still, they aren't soulless, stupid drones. They have ideas too. It's just developing their minds that is the part is hard to focus on, especially in a world like ours. I say, given the time and resources, infantry Marines could excel above even our smartest Marines, with the proper skills. My goal is to help them get those skills. This is not mandatory. You can choose to be a part of the debate team. I won't draft you.

[HardJedi]

Originally posted by Debate_god21


I guess that's is right, but at least I'm blind as to how they do think. .

You are dang RIGHt that's right. and personally, Ifind it a bit offensive, as a former 0311 for you to have said that. and I am dang near impossible to offend ;) A week in the field huh? well, hell, guess my 13 year old NEPHEW knows what it's like tio be a grunt. I took him camping once! ( sigh)

[HardJedi]

Originally posted by Debate_god21


My mistake. Still, they aren't soulless, stupid drones. They have ideas too. It's just developing their minds that is the part is hard to focus on, especially in a world like ours. I say, given the time and resources, infantry Marines could excel above even our smartest Marines, with the proper skills.


WOW! and people say that I come off condesending. Thanks for ALLOWING as how all Infantry are not mindless and souless, and that we MAY have a brain! JESUS! where do you get OFF with this stuff?!?!?!?!?!?!

and developing our MINDS is hard to focus on? OH MY FRICKING GOD! Cause yeah, I NEVER had a thought, or had to THINK in the infantry, it was ALL physical! If I thopught you would believe me for a SECOND, I'd give ya my last I.Q. score. ( not that it matters, I suppose)

now, look Marine, you a a VERY intelligent Kid, and can write pretty well. But you REALLY need to be carefull what you say and who you say it about. At least, that's My .02


Sorry if any of this was out of line, but what you wrote REALLY chapped my A$$!

[Debate_god21]

Originally posted by Skinnypup

You are incorrect D_g21! In a perfect, rhetorical world that would fly. But combat is not perfect, and impossible to "know-how" everything. And this applies to your whole argument.

I never said we knew how to do everything. I was implying that with the proper critical skills application, we could anticipate many possible combat problems. This is, by no means, a cure-all for battle problems. This is prediction and training enhancement for Marines to keep an open mind to all possibilities. In debate, you must be willing to be unbiased about anything. They have to be willing to listen as well, or they will lose, sorely.

No matter how you look at it, public speaking is a way of life. You can't get away from it. When you're out in the civilian world, this is especially true for interviews. We all know that not all Marines are going to be career. Why not give them aid in an area, where a lot of people have trouble with. The Corps gives aid everywhere else, why not in this field? We have Semper Fit, which helps Marines by supplying them with gyms and recreational activities; the commissary and chow hall, which supplies Marines with ample supplies of food which help sustain nourishment; MCIs to help Marines stimulate their career skills and the TAP, which helps us go to college.

You cannot escape public speaking, unless take a vow of silence or become a mime.

If every leader were doing his/her job right, there would be no NJPs or anyone in the Brig.

And as per your "dumb Marine" arguement: I do not buy that. There are many journalists and other civilians that prey upon our Marines, because of our supposed "intelligence factor." "Grunt" is excellent example of this arguement. This implies that Marines have the brain the size of a walnut. They don't talk, they "grunt," because all they do is fight.

If you brought up the debate idea to your employer, who knows? He/she may love the idea. It would certainly add interest into the ho-hum dreg of every day at work, if your job was certainly day-in, day-out.

I would like to see the MCO that tells Marines they have to watch CNN everyday or the law that states that every person have a copy of the latest U.S. News and World Reports. It is not everyone's job to stay on top of the news (just mine! lol!). It would be nice if everyone were up on the news, but it's not going to happen. I wish everyone would read or watch the news without having to resort to reward or trickery by journalists. I'm guilty of this too. I was a reporter in the civilian sect, but, I've learned the error of my ways.

In closing, I would like again to thank you for helping me fashion a stronger case in affirmation, and again stimulating my mind to its fullest! Thanks!

[Debate_god21]

Originally posted by HardJedi


You are dang RIGHt that's right. and personally, Ifind it a bit offensive, as a former 0311 for you to have said that. and I am dang near impossible to offend ;) A week in the field huh? well, hell, guess my 13 year old NEPHEW knows what it's like tio be a grunt. I took him camping once! ( sigh)

I apologize for the offensive nature of my remark.

[Debate_god21]

Originally posted by HardJedi



WOW! and people say that I come off condesending. Thanks for ALLOWING as how all Infantry are not mindless and souless, and that we MAY have a brain! JESUS! where do you get OFF with this stuff?!?!?!?!?!?!

and developing our MINDS is hard to focus on? OH MY FRICKING GOD! Cause yeah, I NEVER had a thought, or had to THINK in the infantry, it was ALL physical! If I thopught you would believe me for a SECOND, I'd give ya my last I.Q. score. ( not that it matters, I suppose)

now, look Marine, you a a VERY intelligent Kid, and can write pretty well. But you REALLY need to be carefull what you say and who you say it about. At least, that's My .02


Sorry if any of this was out of line, but what you wrote REALLY chapped my A$$!

Okay, I won't use any more infantry analogies. I apologize to any infantry Marines I may have offended. It was not my purpose to offend anyone. I will be more careful in the future.

[greensideout]

Feeling pressure DG21? LMAO

Debating a Marine is much like bitting a pit bull on the a**!

[Debate_god21]

I think it's more like walking into a gas chamber naked.

[greensideout]

Words are powerful, chose them well.

[Debate_god21]

They're very tricky, those words. They tend to be correct in our minds, but come out funny on paper. Even Ben Franklin had trouble writing letters to the ladies of Paris. I'm young, and it's a card that tends not to be in my favor, so I can be impulsive. But it's a very good lesson for me. Don't underestimate anyone or let your guard down with anyone. A lesson hard learned for me today. I will try to be more careful in the future with my words.

[greensideout]

Your only redemtion is to go to the EM Club, drink a few beers and stand up and say, "all 0311's are dumb a**es." ---lol---After they have re-educated you, you will then begin to understand that you are wrong!---lol

[Debate_god21]

Originally posted by greensideout
Your only redemtion is to go to the EM Club, drink a few beers and stand up and say, "all 0311's are dumb a**es." ---lol---After they have re-educated you, you will then begin to understand that you are wrong!---lol

EM Club, that's a rarity around here. Besides, I'd like to live until my promotion! lol

[greensideout]

Take care DG21. Hope that you have learned a few lessons!

You are never better then those that you lead. Stay proud but humble in the company that you keep.

[Debate_god21]

Will do!

[hrscowboy]

holy **** go to the em club and call a bunch of 0311"s dumbasses ??? Dont think that would be good for your health my brother think i would rather go to the whitehat in gitmo and scream you squids are wussys and get it on.....

[yellowwing]

I think that our other Brothers gave you less than a C minus! ;)

When you get saltier DG21, you'll enjoy a good laugh at yourself!

But right now, it is far better to step on your own crank here at Leatherneck.com than in front of your Command!

Here is another idea. Start a new totally new debate type discussion, but not actually about debates. Some new interesting topic that has a few debatable facets.

Think carefully on something that we'd be interested in discussing.

Semper Fidelis! :marine:

[Debate_god21]

I think some of them gave me less than a C- when I started this thread.

[HardJedi]

Originally posted by Debate_god21
I think some of them gave me less than a C- when I started this thread.


Well, probably. But there are narrow minded individuals in every group/family. :D




Here's a question that I have been trying to come up with an answer for for a few weeks now.


If you belong to a society( which we all do) that has specific rules and ethics about behavior ( ours does) and you grow up in that society, and enjoy it's benefits, you pretty much automatically accept those rules, correct?
You had no say so in the choosing of the society you grew up in, that's just luck of the draw.

Now, you VOLUNTARILY CHOOSE to join a small elite society, ( oh, I don't know, like THE MARINE CORPS) who aslo has a set of rules and ethics.

Now, WHICH SOCIETIES ethics/rules should hold more weight with you, when the two come into conflict?

[yellowwing]

Are the constrainst of this new discussion based on personal rules, ethics, beliefs, and faiths, or what we have observed in others also?

[Debate_god21]

Let me tell you about myself (and this is a story about society):

As a child, I grew up in a wealthy family. Lots of parties, lots of glamor, the ritz. The rest of my family loved the rules dealing with such a lifestyle. I found them way too confining for me. I constantly ran away from home and found myself at the library most often. I'd hide in a closet until everyone left. I lived there for a few days at a time, living off the candy and such I was able to get out of the vending machines and the water fountain. After a while, I was discovered, and was brought back to my family, who had no idea that I was even gone. My family stressed that this was not the way for a proper gentleman to behave. I told them that I didn't care how they acted, because it was all an "act" anyways. My father became very upset with me, and threatened to take away my TV (like I used it). He said I needed to grow to be a respectable man, like him. He was in no way respectable. He cheated on his taxes, lied to his workers about benefits, etc. I never accepted the status quo of my society. I didn't live in normal society either. And I never followed the rules and guidelines set by my society. I'm not the best person to ask about society, being as I'm a social outcast from my societal group.

The main reason I like the society in the Marine Corps is that there is a sense of justice. That's all I can say about that.

[yellowwing]

Last summer our Native Veterans Group was invited to a small local powwow. We carried in the Warrior's Eagle Staff and the flags, as is our culture's Honor and Duty.

At the end of the powwow the Honored Elder was presented and I was quickly told that we were to file past Her and deliver a hand salute.

The Marine in me boiled up and thought, "I WILL NOT salute anyone but Officers, Warrant Officers, Medal of Honor Recipients, or Presidents!" :marine:

I was at the end of the line filing past her, thinking and debating what I would do. Then I realized that everyone in my unit was saluting. Being different would not reflect well on the unit. So I saluted.

I didn't feel good about it, but the huge smile on Her face helped a bit.

[Osotogary]

Debate_god21,
I really don't know anyone, and I am very serious about this, who has had a quote "normal upbringing". What the blazes is normal anyway and to whom? (Now there is a debate for you but not here. LOL)
Maybe you want things defined in black or white and debating will bring about a black or white solution. Being a Marine I'm sure that you are now more than familiar with the very structured life that you are living. It has been defined for you and I think that no matter how much of a rebel you were, you need this structure.
You are/were kind of like me and almost everybody else that I have known. You were fortunate enough to make some good decisions for yourself and it sure seems that you are trying to create a positive life as well....wether you debate about it or not.
Good luck to you. I've enjoyed your input and insight ,as well as, the responses that your posts have brought about.
Gary

[HardJedi]

Originally posted by yellowwing
Are the constrainst of this new discussion based on personal rules, ethics, beliefs, and faiths, or what we have observed in others also?


all of life is ALL of those things. how could it be answered any other way Yellowing?

what I am after is opinion. what do YOU think should have more impact on you? what you grew up with? or what you chose?


just an opinion, and why.

[HardJedi]

Originally posted by Debate_god21
Let me tell you about myself (and this is a story about society):

I never accepted the status quo of my society. I didn't live in normal society either. And I never followed the rules and guidelines set by my society. I'm not the best person to ask about society, being as I'm a social outcast from my societal group.
. .

so, basically what you are saying is, the question is too tough for you to answer?


instead of this sob story, why not just SAY you had no answer. Now, before you get mad, let me explain my response.

As for never accepting societies status quo? Umm, did you go to school? did you graduate high school?

do you routinely rape and or murder people? sell alot of drugs?

answer the first two yes and the second two no, and you fit just about as normal as anyone else in society.


we are ALL societal outcasts, Kid. that is NO EXCUSE for ignoring society at large. as for not growing up NORMAL? pm me sometime, and let me tell you about a kid who worked three jobs a day, went to school, and lived on his own at 14 years old. ;)

[hrscowboy]

Marines dont debate we dont have time for such nonsense, We are the men they call when something needs the gates of hell opened up to them and only that happens when everyone else has figured the talking bull**** is over. If they would let us devil dogs do our jobs the way we were taught no one would even dare try taken us on..

[HardJedi]

oh, there will ALWAYS be someone who wants to try and take us out, Cowboy, no matter what we do. it's human nature.

[greensideout]

Originally posted by HardJedi



Well, probably. But there are narrow minded individuals in every group/family. :D




Here's a question that I have been trying to come up with an answer for for a few weeks now.


If you belong to a society( which we all do) that has specific rules and ethics about behavior ( ours does) and you grow up in that society, and enjoy it's benefits, you pretty much automatically accept those rules, correct?
You had no say so in the choosing of the society you grew up in, that's just luck of the draw.

Now, you VOLUNTARILY CHOOSE to join a small elite society, ( oh, I don't know, like THE MARINE CORPS) who aslo has a set of rules and ethics.

Now, WHICH SOCIETIES ethics/rules should hold more weight with you, when the two come into conflict?

There is not much question to the answer on this as I see it.

The ethics/rules of the greater society, into which you were born and have lived prevail over a "voluntary choice" of the ethics/rules of a small society. The small society is a part of the greater society and it's ethics/rules can only be added to serve the whole of society. They cannot trump or cast out the greater set to serve only the small group.

This would be much like joining a street gang and thinking the gang's ethics/rules should be served even if they conflict with those of the greater society.

[hrscowboy]

Well if you want to call the Marines a (street Gang) and we believe in the Marines ethics and rules whats wrong with doing a conflict to a great society if they dont believe like we do.. I see nothing wrong with that.... buttom line the greater society will think real hard before knockin on our doors.

[HardJedi]

AHHH! VERY good Greensideout!

BUT, weren't most people upset with Kerry because he testified against Americans and thier actions in the Vietnam war?

Don't we, as Marines, see it as a horrible thing to rat out a fellow Marine? You deal with it within the unit, right? At least, that's the way I was taught, and what I alway's believed in. And that rule would deffinatley go against those of the larger society.


Also, WHY should you, once you reach the age to make intelligent descicions on your own, be expected to follow the rules of a society that you had no choice in being a part of, or any voice in the creation of the rules of said society? :D

[greensideout]

The "AHHH!" and "BUT" have me worried.---lol---It feels like an ambush---lol.

1. Kerry lied!

2. I would say that it serves the greater good because it was not a big enough deal or we would have ratted the rat out.

3. Because you are not greater then the whole.

[greensideout]

No Cowboy, I'm not calling the Marines a street gang---lol---where did that come from?---lol.

[yellowwing]

geensideout, I think you initial comments were a broad generalization on a whole society level.

DG21 addressed it on personal family level, rejecting the status quo based on ethics. I went on a personal level also, accepting the current set's values that were against my own, based on the greater good of my small unit.

I've told everyone here about that street fight I got into in New Orleans. The mass of citizens watching this woman get assaulted, thought it was a good idea to wait it out until the police eventually arrived. I went against that and stepped in and kicked his ass.

(hrscowboy, UMSC street gang reminds me of an eposide of The West Wing. Martin Sheen was debating about some action and said something like, "If we do this we are nothing but a street gang, albeit a very well financed street gang...", kinda funny to me)

I argue that changing the scope of the argument produces different results.

[HardJedi]

Originally posted by greensideout
The "AHHH!" and "BUT" have me worried.---lol---It feels like an ambush---lol.


3. Because you are not greater then the whole.


nah, no ambush. (yet) ;)



for that third answer, I was expecting more of a "if you don't like it, get the hell out" type answer. :D LOL

[HardJedi]

Originally posted by yellowwing

[
I argue that changing the scope of the argument produces different results.

well of COURSE it does. That is why almost everyone has situational ethics.


That is also why i left the question so vague. that way you get a wider variety of answers, because everyone will imagine a different set of circumstances for it to be applied to. :) ( that's where the ambush was hidden Greensideout, in the question itself)

[greensideout]

Yellowwing, I was responding to HardJedi's question, not making a response to DG21.

To his pronouncement, I simply say, "No shi^, life IS hard. Make the best of it with your best choices!"

[HardJedi]

Originally posted by greensideout


This would be much like joining a street gang and thinking the gang's ethics/rules should be served even if they conflict with those of the greater society.

(just to be a pain in the butt)


If the gang will kill you immediatley for not following thier rules andd ethics, but society will let you live, wouldn't that in itself make the gangs ethics more important to you? after all, the only reason we HAVE rules and ethics is to ensure survival, right? :D

[greensideout]

Loaded again!---lol

NO!, "Mr. pain in the butt". (Your words---lol.) Someone's stupid choice to join the gang and accept it's ethics has put their own survival at risk, not the rules of the greater society that they left or turned their back on. :D

[yellowwing]

Yellowwing, I was responding to HardJedi's question, not making a response to DG21.
I got no problem with that, DG21 put it out there, it's fair game. I took it to demonstrate my "Scope of the Argument" point.

[greensideout]

No problem here as well. :)

[yellowwing]

Scope of the Argument. I did not agree with that crack head beating on a woman, and I did not agree with George W's first Term.

I clearly took different responses. I used the ballot to demonstrate my point on the larger problem. Although at the time confronting a 6'2" crack head was pretty exciting and important! :banana:

(Oh Chr*st, now I'm sounding like John Kerry, "Did I tell about the time when I was a war hero...")

[greensideout]

Pick your ethics well, right? They should not only serve yourself but more importantly others in your society for the common good of all.

[greensideout]

yellowwing, what can I say except, WAY TO USE YOUR TRAINING BROTHER!

[yellowwing]

Well, at least I'm smart enough to stay out of haunted houses, (HARDJEDI!) ;)

[HardJedi]

yeah yeah, whatever! LOL

[Skinnypup]

I never said we knew how to do everything. I was implying that with the proper critical skills application, we could anticipate many possible combat problems. This is, by no means, a cure-all for battle problems. This is prediction and training enhancement for Marines to keep an open mind to all possibilities. In debate, you must be willing to be unbiased about anything. They have to be willing to listen as well, or they will lose, sorely.
Your argument is too weak. I have time and time again stated that debate is going on daily.. You obviously just don't see it. Not just with the 03's, but all of the Corps. Bottom line D_g21... A debate Team in the Corps is like another bureacracy for the government. Somebody's worried about job security.


No matter how you look at it, public speaking is a way of life. You can't get away from it. When you're out in the civilian world, this is especially true for interviews. We all know that not all Marines are going to be career. Why not give them aid in an area, where a lot of people have trouble with. The Corps gives aid everywhere else, why not in this field? We have Semper Fit, which helps Marines by supplying them with gyms and recreational activities; the commissary and chow hall, which supplies Marines with ample supplies of food which help sustain nourishment; MCIs to help Marines stimulate their career skills and the TAP, which helps us go to college
As per evrything I have stated previously... Marines are already doing this. You obvioulsy have too much time on your hands young boot!


You cannot escape public speaking, unless take a vow of silence or become a mime.
Show me some evidence that Marines fail in life due to "not enough public speaking skills".


If every leader were doing his/her job right, there would be no NJPs or anyone in the Brig.
Leaders are not responsible for those who choose to be self destructive. Majority of NJP's are "alcohol related incidents" (misdemeanor) In which most of us here are somewhat guilty.... Not a question of leadership.


If you brought up the debate idea to your employer, who knows? He/she may love the idea. It would certainly add interest into the ho-hum dreg of every day at work, if your job was certainly day-in, day-out.
Yep! I wish I got paid to debate... But I don't, and neither do you. I'm sure my clients would love to engage in a debate while I'm trying to repair software/hardware. You should have enrolled in college before enlisting in the Corps. You would have had ample opprotunity to debate while taking "Poli. Sci." Or "Speech" Might I also add that there are many other ways to be a better, independent thinker, confident, and being aware of current problems, and resolutions. It's called experience, maturity and wisdom. Unfortunatlely this usually comes with age :)



I would like to see the MCO that tells Marines they have to watch CNN everyday or the law that states that every person have a copy of the latest U.S. News and World Reports. It is not everyone's job to stay on top of the news (just mine! lol!). It would be nice if everyone were up on the news, but it's not going to happen. I wish everyone would read or watch the news without having to resort to reward or trickery by journalists. I'm guilty of this too. I was a reporter in the civilian sect, but, I've learned the error of my ways.
I'll argue this til the day I die.... It is every persons responsibility to stay informed on current events! Not the govt's job, employer or the Marine Corps.


I guess that's is right, but at least I'm blind as to how they do think. If even I am just a pogue, I'll try to understand. Skinnypup's arguement is that I have no idea what a grunt thinks like. Marines are Marines regardless. We should have a good idea what each other is thinking, but we don't. My mistake. Still, they aren't soulless, stupid drones. They have ideas too. It's just developing their minds that is the part is hard to focus on, especially in a world like ours. I say, given the time and resources, infantry Marines could excel above even our smartest Marines, with the proper skills. My goal is to help them get those skills. This is not mandatory. You can choose to be a part of the debate team. I won't draft you.
Coordinating Instructions. That answers your thought of "what everyone is thinking..." You're the only one I've seen who compares the IQ of a Rifleman to any other MOS. I would argue that the Rifleman is smartest thinking Marine in all of the Corps. O3's learn a little of every MOS in the Corps from S2, Logistics, Communication, NBC, all the way down to Humvee driver. Ask any other MOS to learn to be a grunt... I noticed first hand, that it was difficult for Marines with a prior MOS, because they lacked the ability to "think critically"... I saw many times, staff NCO's or officers, humbled because they lacked this kind of experience.

I honestly could care less about the Marine Corps having a debate team. If it makes the Corps more effective, so be it. You brought it in here for discussion, and have yet to sell me on it. Again everything you've mentioned to defend it, as to why the Marine Corps should have one, IS and HAS already been going on

[Debate_god21]

"Coordinating Instructions. That answers your thought of "what everyone is thinking..." You're the only one I've seen who compares the IQ of a Rifleman to any other MOS. I would argue that the Rifleman is smartest thinking Marine in all of the Corps. O3's learn a little of every MOS in the Corps from S2, Logistics, Communication, NBC, all the way down to Humvee driver. Ask any other MOS to learn to be a grunt... I noticed first hand, that it was difficult for Marines with a prior MOS, because they lacked the ability to "think critically"... I saw many times, staff NCO's or officers, humbled because they lacked this kind of experience.

I honestly could care less about the Marine Corps having a debate team. If it makes the Corps more effective, so be it. You brought it in here for discussion, and have yet to sell me on it. Again everything you've mentioned to defend it, as to why the Marine Corps should have one, IS and HAS already been going on."

I might even say 43's are the smartest, because we go everywhere and a little about every Marine. But that's just my pride talking.

God, I'm glad to be back. Hospital food sucks so bad!!