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thedrifter
10-16-04, 06:57 AM
10-14-2004

Has Marine Corps Training Gone Soft?





By Matthew Dodd



Earlier this summer, I wrote about the Marine Corps launching an investigation of drill instructors at its Parris Island boot camp after a reporter-turned-recruit wrote a newspaper article describing his experiences in detail as a Marine recruit (see “Say It Ain’t So!” DefenseWatch, July 15, 2004).



Reporter Bill Cahir’s article included accounts of his D.I.s using profanity and in some cases physically touching and striking him. He also praised his D.I.s and stated that he did not think he was verbally or physically abused. Officials at Parris Island nonetheless opened investigations into these “allegations” of mistreatment by those D.I.s involved.



I opened and closed my article with a simple question that had been asked countless times over the years, but which begged to be asked in lieu of the official Parris Island response to the situation: Is Marine Corps recruit training really going soft?



I asked for reader feedback, and the responses were immediate, very personal in many cases, and almost unanimous in partially answering my simple question. Let me share with you some representative comments from the heavy volume of reader feedback, and some of my analysis and observations of what was said and what was not said.



In retrospect, I believe my simple question was more complex than I originally thought. I asked readers to compare two different eras of recruit training, when all most readers could reasonably be expected to have is one – their own personal experiences. The only way to answer if boot camp is going soft is to know what boot camp was like and to know what it is like now. Readers needed a “before” and “after” to answer my simple question. Unfortunately, my article did not even come close to providing a complete “after” perspective for those readers who wanted to discuss their “before” experience.



Still, I am happy to say that readers responded quite well to my question, despite all its shortcomings.



The overwhelming majority of readers who responded were older Marines, or former Marines. Many served in Vietnam, a few even talked about their Korean War-era experiences, and some served in the 1980s-90s including service in the 1991 Gulf War. Most noticeable to me was an almost complete lack of response from Marines who went through boot camp – as recruits or as D.I.s – within the past three to five years. Their assessments may have allowed me to answer my own question with an understanding of the “after” perspective to compare to the “before” experiences and perspectives shared by the older and former Marines.



A good number of readers had very strong opinions about the role of D.I.s in molding recruits into Marines ready to endure the stresses and demands of combat. The vast majority said that boot camp needs to be very tough and stressful, and they implied that today’s boot camp is not tough and stressful enough for the modern realities of war. Here is a cross-section of comments on this aspect:

“The D.I.’s most important job is to ensure that the recruits they are training are fit to be Marines. Part of this is to make their lives extremely stressful. Combat is without a doubt one of the most stressful situations mankind experiences and as such, the need to duplicate the mental and physical stress levels onto these recruits is evident. No Marine in their right mind will ever say that Boot Camp is too hard.”



“To be honest, everything short of lasting physical damage and death should be allowed in the current Marine Corp and Army recruit training …. The point is simple .… Basic Combat Training and Marine Boot Camp are there for one and one reason only ... to prepare young men and women for combat as we understand it in the 21st Century. And that is the only mission. And those with the combat experience, and the proper training for that mission should be left alone to do it. And provided that recruits are not damaged beyond temporary pains or killed, they should be allowed to conduct their mission.”



“It sounds like something has been lost. DIs who can’t cuss out recruits? Is this the end of civilization as we know it? … And I don’t think today’s recruits are being done any favors by being insulated from the ‘language arts’ practiced by DIs since time immemorial.”



“I did the PI [Parris Island] tour Summer/Fall 1983. At 23, I found it very challenging on many levels. We started with about 76 recruits and 12 weeks later graduated 44. What I see now are platoons of 85 and 88 recruits graduating. Actually I noticed this in the late 90’s …. I'd like to know why the attrition rate has fallen off. Oh, and all this PC **** about ‘harsh language’ ... the seven dirty words are nothing till you hear grown men crying for their mothers or screaming in pain. Combat’s the obscenity. If one’s ears and sensibilities are intruded upon by curse words, ‘stand the f**k by’ when you have to go hand to hand in some desert rat-nest.”



“My brother (a [Gunnery Sergeant] serving in Afghanistan at the moment) has told me many times that the kids they get straight out of [military occupational school] are immature, disrespectful and undisciplined. He and his contemporaries blame the recruit depots for it.”


A good number of readers surprised me by questioning the judgment and character of the reporter-turned-recruit who wrote the original article. I was surprised for I had not once considered him to be part of the problem. Obviously, it was his article that ignited the controversy that ultimately led to the investigation. However, I was even more surprised and disappointed with how the Marine Corps chose, or was forced, to respond to the article’s content.


“The one problem I had was the author/boot writing crap that likely would cause trouble. He was 34 years old for Christ's sake and knew exactly what he was doing …. ”



“I can’t imagine what that idiot was thinking when he wrote his story for publication. He states in the text that he had to sign three times that he had not been abused. Well, what did he think they meant by abuse? What the hell did he think would happen when he wrote a story like that? He’s got a lot to answer for in my book.”

The most colorful response I got also attacked the judgment and character of the reporter-turned-recruit:


“My background, I am the wife, mother and mother-in-law of Marines. My husband did 30 years and has been retired for some time .… My son did a total of 10 years and my son-in-law just retired on 20. What did he expect by making allegations, he should know that in this day and age all allegations are investigated and proper action is taken. Poor little baby got cussed at and a little hands on. This could not have been the first time he was hollered at or touched. As a parent when raising kids I used a few words to my kids that perhaps were not politically correct and smacked them when the need was there and their little egos did not get damaged and they have gone on to become responsible adults. This little crybaby should be sent home to his Mama so she can cut his meat for him …. ”


By far the most analytical response I got was from a retired colonel who went through Marine Corps Recruit Depot San Diego in 1958. Truly from the “Old Corps,” his comments were straight from the heart and certainly worthy of serious reflection here in the opening years of the 21st century:

“The rule against direct physical abuse by DI's is a good one, in view of periodic incidents from the 50’s and 60’s. I enlisted a couple of years after the Ribbon Creek Incident, and the rule was certainly in place by then. However, the rule didn’t prohibit the DI’s from getting up real close, from leaning into the recruit, from crowding the recruit up against the wall locker or bulkhead, or from doing the kinds of things you described in your article. These kinds of things are minor, and if today’s Marine Corps is going to punish DI’s for stuff like that, then I regret that the Corps is becoming politically correct like the other services.”



“As a 17-year old, I learned to swear fluently in boot camp, picking up the example set by the DI’s. In fact, their use of profanity was so creative and salty, that we recruits sometimes had to smile to ourselves even in the midst of performing physical punishment or receiving a verbal harangue. Profanity itself doesn’t relate to ‘toughness’ of training, but the attempt to legislate it out of boot camp unfortunately sounds like the Marine Corps is again being politically correct to the point of ignoring simple realities.”



“I don’t know if boot camp training today is any ‘tougher’ physically than before. The long runs, obstacle courses, and punishment exercises back then must have been similar to today’s, except that we wore boots, not sneakers. But I think that boot camp was ‘tougher’ mentally back then, if only because the feeling of being disconnected from family, friends, and anything familiar was almost total. We had no ‘family weekends,’ no phone calls, and no protective screen of rules (that we were aware of) limiting the DI’s behavior. We were in unfamiliar, expeditionary-looking Quonset huts, rather than familiar, school dorm type buildings, and MCRD was truly another planet. We recruits commented even during boot camp that the mental stress was harder than anything physical. I wonder if today’s recruits have a similar degree of mental stress in what seems to be a much more protected and circumscribed environment.”



“Probably Marines who went through boot camp during WW2 and Korea would have said that MCRD in the late 50’s and 60’s was a piece of cake. Maybe Marines who go through boot camp today will say that boot camp 20 years from now will be a picnic for sissies? The one thing I really worry about, though, is the Marine Corps becoming ‘politically correct’ as is the fashion today.”


Lt. Col. Matthew Dodd USMC is a Senior Editor of DefenseWatch. He can be reached at mattdodd1775@hotmail.com. Please send Feedback responses to dwfeedback@yahoo.com.

http://www.sftt.org/cgi-bin/csNews/csNews.cgi?database=DefenseWatch.db&command=viewone&op=t&id=665&rnd=318.72427937996644

Ellie

Choppergunner
10-16-04, 07:56 AM
Got to agree with the salty old Colonel who said leaning in with profanity makes Marines. Drill Instructors are harmless without that permission to teach a recruit what it takes to become the world's finest fightingman/woman.
D.I.'s teach recruits how to be a Marine because Marines are not born, they are made, and nothing is more important to a Marine in combat than having a D.I. with full reign over his platoon (short of physical disability or death) to do as he sees fit to MAKE a man/woman a Marine because we are the toughest force in the world.
I urge hands on discipline....it didn't hurt me to do thousands of bends and thrusts when I made a mistake.....or get punched in the chest for still another mistake. I sure learned quickly how to not get the doled out punishment to the #10's of our Platoon.

A given is a D.I. MUST be able to put the fear of god into a recruit by way of time-old useage of profanity in the most colorful manner I've ever heard in my life. A D.I. is a work of art, to be sure, he/she is committed to saving their recruits lives once they leave boot camp.
I'm not hot on recruits being able to call home, or email. Best way is total isolation IMO....so to ensure who the "Daddy" really is (your D.I.).

I understand there's a world of difference in 40 years that could have changed the Corps from when I last visited; surely, the Corps will not bend to pressures to become more P.C., like our sister services, for stress is crucial in learning how to be a Marine in combat.
And, that's what it's all about isn't it?
Learning how to stay alive in any combat situation...whether it be marksmanship or hand to hand.....only the tough will survive.

Semper Fidelis
Choppergunner
PISC Plt. 341 (we won it all)

Hand Salute to my drill instructors

MillRatUSMC
10-16-04, 08:13 AM
My two little pennies worth;
From my limited point of view, on a tour of MCRD Parris Island in 2000.
Some training is more physical in respect to what we did back in 1958, repelling for one.
There more swimming and there's added Marksmanship training.
To that mix add the "Crucible".
The Drill Instructors are limited to the "PIT" or the "QUARTERDECK" for punishment or to instill a sense of "teamwork" or to "motivate" the unmotivated.
I honesty believe that we had more stress and punishment.
Like banging the M-1 against your uphousing, when it was out of alignment.
That would be grounds now for instant reliving of the Drill Instructor.
As you can see, I never refer to those men and women as "DI", one it's a sign of laziness and disrespect as I was taught way back then.
DI = Dumb Idiot = more PT than you ever wished for.
Everything else was covered by the "Fleet Marines", they got you squared away ASAP.
The 5th Marines used to force march over 150 miles once during the year.
Most Fridays, we had twenty milers.
Most Marines IMHO are smarter but not as physical as we were.
That was dued to us having very limit forms of entertainment.
Now most youths have more than we ever hope to have.
Limiting their time for things more physical.
Now there DEP and Poolee functions to make up for the lack of that physical activity and it get much of today's youth ready for the demands of boot camp.
Than there's the money factor to count, today's Marine Corps is investing a great deal of money on training.
Every recruit dropped is a loss of money.
That why we now see graduting platoons of 80 or more Marines.
Some might slip by that never should have made if money wasn't a factor.
But we have to live what the hand dealth to us or the Marine Corps.
But by and large many now graduating are men ane women worthy of carrying on what the America thinks of it's Marine Corps
Well so much for my two little pennies worth...

<MARQUEE BEHAVIOR=scroll DIRECTION=left LOOP=infinite>The meaning of professionalism: P-People, R-Responsibility, O-Objective, F-Focus, E-Expectations, S-Standards, S-Safety, I- Integrity, O-Obligation, N-Knowledge, A-Accountability, L-Leadership, I-Inspire, S-Simplicity, M-Mission</MARQUEE>

"A man or woman is measured
by the footprint,
he or she leaves behind".

"They were the best you had, America,
and you turned your back on them".
~ Joe Galloway ~ Speaking about Vietnam Veterans

TO THOSE WHO GAVE THEIR LIVES
THAT OTHERS MAY SAY PROUDLY
I AM A MARINE

Semper Fidelis/Semper Fi
Ricardo

Jersey Joe
10-16-04, 08:14 AM
For the sake of our troops everywhere, I hope the PC crowd
hasn't affected our training too much.
It always blows my mind to see how these PC people are always "concerned" about our training and then the way military operations are carried out (we shouldn't be TOO violent, you understand). Yet these clowns would NEVER think of enlisting. Just protect them so they can continue their "latte discussion groups". They're "intellectuals" you see.
To all the DI's, keep up the good work. It's often a thankless job, but a tougher Marine will, hopefully, be a Marine that's alive. Most of us appreciate it throughout our lives (usually later than earlier).
Semper Fi

MillRatUSMC
10-16-04, 08:16 AM
Make that upperhousing...[mad]

Semper Fidelis/Semper Fi
Ricardo

MillRatUSMC
10-16-04, 09:06 AM
On review, I should have said "head" or "upper brain housing", that was the receiving end of the M-1.

Semper Fidelis/Semper Fi
Ricardo

hrscowboy
10-16-04, 11:47 AM
bottom line is we need to go back to the old corp ways instead listening to whinnie asses..

LivinSoFree
10-16-04, 01:22 PM
The following is a repost of some of my previous commentary, but nonetheless, applicable. If any of you "Old Corps" Marines are curious about what exactly MCRDPI is like today, feel free to drop me a line, and I'd be more than happy to clear up/answer any questions.

Hmm... without getting up on too much of a soapbox, allow me to comment briefly on the supposed "improvements" in the training schedule.

First off, swim qual is, and I suspect, always has been, a real challenge, if you decide to push yourself. I qualified as an S-2, and was 3/4 of the way through S-1 qual before I got cut... I was POed, but it happens... the "Sharks" are expert instructors, but perhaps with a little bit of insanity and sadism thrown in for fun... they took a great delight in scaring the bejesus out of recruits, strong and weak swimmers alike. It's some motivated training, that's for sure.

Now, as for the "improved" training schedule. In short, I believe it undercuts some of the finer traditions of the Marine Corps on the ground level. First off, not everyone can be a Marine. This seems like an obvious statement to make in present company, but it seems to be something that the Marine Corps is slowly forgetting. What I saw at Recruit Training was drastically different from how I had imagined it, and how other Marines had described it to me. "Black Flag" conditions cut out much of our training, such as toning down some of the ops at the Crucible (which was nowhere NEAR as hard as expectations had been set), as did "Lightning in Five" alarms, which once again cut out a lot of our training. During the Crucible, we had a 2 hour L5 alarm where, instead of training, we sat on our packs under a thunderdome while the sky remained overcast. BWT, which used to be a 2 week field exercise type evolution, is now a single overnight op, plus some skills classes, combined with three days of A-Line field firing, for which we were given scorecards, but then, by way of actions of the pit and tower NCOs, told not to use them!

We had recruits who should've been NJPed and dropped during first phase be kept, over and over again, because of directions from higher, only to a)drag the platoon down and dishonor our Drill Instructors (i.e. the 4 recruits who participated in breaking into the SDI house and stealing chow that had been field stripped from our MREs... not only did they not have the stones to confess when the platoon was confronted with it, but their only punishment was suspended SDI time after the Crucible, and no "recruit liberty sunday." These recruits didn't even get NJPed, and went on to graduate with the platoon).

The coalesence of the platoon into a team, to be honest, never happened with my platoon. The guide was weak in terms of his ability to command the obedience of his squad leaders and other recruits, and to make matters worse, 2 of our 4 squad leaders were more often than not the ones f***ing around, so trying to get other recruits to follow their lead was nigh impossible.

In terms of intensity, the training has dropped down. Measures put in place to purportedly "protect" recruit welfare *WILL*, in the long run, have exactly the opposite effect, when ill-prepared recruits get shot and killed as a result of watered down training, and when Mommy asks the Marine Corps why Johnny died, HQMC's answer will be, "because of you, ma'am."

In terms of traditions, probably the biggest blow was the moving of the Crucible. While the Crucible is a fairly new idea in the long history of the Marine Corps, it was a good one! As a "transformation" type event, it served excellently to mark the transition from Recruit to Marine, and the Emblem Ceremony in front of the Iwo Jima Memorial is one of the most moving events I have ever had the pleasure of witnessing. Unfortunately, however, the ceremony I witnessed was not my own. It was several years prior to my own enlistment, and by the time I got there, it was something long dead, thanks to the "improvements" in the training schedule. Now, upon return from the Crucible, there's a 5 minute ceremony that we were rushed into in front of the Battalion Mess Hall, where we were given our Tan Belts, that we had actually rated since week 4, and our "Corps Values Cards." The Emblem ceremony then took place in front of families and friends who could not possibly understand the significance of it, though by then, that significance had been decidedly cheapened. While I understand the desire of the Marine Corps to produce "healthier" New Marines, the results are, in fact, a weaker Marine Corps.

hrscowboy
10-16-04, 02:31 PM
emails and phone calls what the hell is that crap i never seen that in bootcamp until 7 days before graduation and that was a 3 minute phone call home. we were only allowed to write home (letters) and that was it. There was not a day that went by while i was in bootcamp someone was getting his ass busted by the di or the platoon was doing punishment cause the dumb **** couldnt get it right and that night he got a blanket party to get his **** straight. buttom line you got your ass whooped or pt your ass off all day if you didnt get it right.

Devildogg4ever
10-16-04, 02:38 PM
I don't understand why the training has changed like it has! Why fix it if it's not broke?? I can remember hearing the last couple of years, D.I.'s commenting on the fact they didn't have to curse or use any physical force of any kind to the recruits! I can see why!!

greensideout
10-16-04, 08:41 PM
LivinSoFree,

I cannot relate to anything you have said about bootcamp.

When did the recruits have time to steal?

Toning down training because of the weather?

Holding over the 10% 'ers?

Crucible? Who really gives a crap about that. The whole point is to become a Marine!

Boot was 12 weeks. ITR was 4 weeks. Time off was 1 day, the last week of ITR. Contact with the "outside" world was by letters. The DI could not hit you and yes he did! Quonset huts were the home that the Marine Corps provied when not in the field. You washed your own cloths at the wash rack. Your "free time" was spent setting on a bucket to write home, clean your weapon, shine your boots and shoes and shine your brass. There was no "free time". You did not count as an indiviual, you were part of a squad that was part of a platoon that was part of a company, that was part of a battalion and so on until you were a part of the Marine Corps. That was the goal! To become a Marine!

And that is the goal today of every recruit. So screw the PC and other goofy ideas. Just continue to build United States Marines!

"Get off your &*$#@ *$%& and move, move, move girls!"
"What are you trying to do Private, #$&^ me *#%%^?"
"You better fire on the right @#$%& target Private or I will rip your ^%##% balls off and stuff them up your #@$%^ &%^$%#$! Do you understand? I can't hear you!

^&*# PC.

Semper Fi,
GSO

hrscowboy
10-16-04, 08:50 PM
oorahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh greensideout tellem what the real corps was like...............

hrscowboy
10-16-04, 09:27 PM
If the old corps was still in affect these marines today would be crying to there mommys .... There aint one marine in leatherneck.com that can say in the 60s and early 70s bootcamp wasnt a bad mamma jammer to get through. bootcamp today aint nothing compared to what the old timers had to endure to be one of the best...

hrscowboy
10-16-04, 09:33 PM
where the hell is the old timers when you need them ????

Nagalfar
10-16-04, 09:49 PM
Boot was a bit*h in the early 70's.. but when it was all over you knew you had been some place and learned a few things along the way, if we need to see what PC can do.. all we have to do is look at the Army, it is very troublesome how PC can destroy something that over 200 years of warfare couldn't even touch and if anything was only made stronger and better, PC is the worst form of death, it's death from within...

MillRatUSMC
10-16-04, 10:04 PM
We can't knock the "Crucible", it's instill what Marines will face in a hostile environment.
It's also demonstrates what sleep deprecation does to the body.
Also how it effects the thought processes during that deprecation.
Many of us had to go through months to sleep deprecation and still had to make decisions, some might have resulted in loss of life.
Many see the end results of war from the comfort of their home or anywhere else.
It's the individual Marine that has to suffer through that sleep deprecation and the decisions that he makes.
That why General Krulak tack on an extra week to boot camp.
Below is a description of what the "Crucible is suppose to do.
For the next two and a half days men would train with men, women with women, as they slogged through the toughest ordeal of the 12 weeks of Marine boot camp, the Crucible. The Crucible is a final test of physical fitness and a chance for recruits to bond together for a common goal. The course is spread out over 560 acres, with 32 stations. Recruits have to get through obstacle courses under warlike conditions. They march 40 miles, sometimes in full pack, including their M-16 rifle. They get only two and a half meals of field rations and are allowed only four hours of sleep a night. The man who made the Crucible part of boot camp is Marine Commandant General Charles Krulak.
Add to the mix the re-enforcing of Marine Corps Core Values.
The result should be better Marines.
General Charles Krulak was CO of my company in Vietnam in 1966.
I'm not sure if he was still CO when I got to Golf Company 2nd Battalion 1st Marines in 1967.
Many of the courses that the recruits go through are named after Medal of Honor recipents, enforcing that valor takes alot of work.
Could or should we do away with the "Crucible" because it's time has come to go?
Let's not put the horse down just yet, many are facing sleep deprecation in hostile places as we speak.
Two day might not be enough, but atleast it gives them the idea...

Semper Fidelis/Semper Fi
Ricardo

hrscowboy
10-16-04, 10:13 PM
40 miles ssgt is that all ??? hell man we humped more than that at ITR and you know we did i would almost bet we humped 120 miles total by the time ITR was done.. humping old smokey, sheep **** and mount mofo gawd the nightmares are coming back..

MillRatUSMC
10-16-04, 11:10 PM
"Old Smokey" what have you awaken?
During ITR, I was the BAR man, that meant.
I had the joy of carrying the BAR beside my M-1 up "Old Smokey".
Nightmare?
You bet, but than we were just 17 going on 18 years of age.
Than there was the "Boondocker Supreme" when I was a member of the 5th Marines.
A little walk in the sun, of 150 miles done by the whole Regiment in full combar gear.
Nightmare?
You best believe it.
Now the question might be;
"Which Crucible" is harder, MCRD PI or MCRD SD?"
One is done on flat terrian, the other is done going uphill.
It all depends on your point of view.
"Hollywood" isn't all it appears...than we all say our boot camp was harder than other Marine's.
Than there all those humps when I was a member of 1st and 3rd Recon...how could we forget those...

Semper Fidelis/Semper Fi
Ricardo

hrscowboy
10-17-04, 01:08 AM
yes i knew i would awaken the nightmares with the old corps guys...

LivinSoFree
10-17-04, 01:10 AM
greensideout, as for *when* these recruits had time to steal, it was after taps. Firewatch wasn't paying attention (and should have been dealt with severely, but, I am ashamed to say, was not), and that's when they made it happen. Personally, I agree very much with the observation that platoons are graduating far bigger than they should be. We began with 65, dropped 15, picked up 9, and graduated as 59.... attrition's too low there, I'd say. Was I the honor grad? No, but I was a solid Marine when I graduated, and I could do my job well. Some recruits, even up to the day before graduation, were substandard. I remember some of them having trouble on the moto run!

hrscowboy
10-17-04, 01:16 AM
what the hell is the moto run???

rsta
10-17-04, 07:08 AM
You guys are bringing back a lot of memories. The profanity used by the DI's was almost poetic! I never thought of it as being "profane" since at the end of the day I would think about what they said and how they said it, and you know, it relieved a lot of stress. I always believed it was a pretty darn good training tool.

When I went through MCRD in '67, it was cut to I believe 9 weeks, and the DI's assured us we were not missing a thing. Training til way after dark we didn't have any "free" time. A few minutes before lights-out for getting your gear squared away and maybe a quick letter home.

"Old Smokey", oh that makes me sore just thinking about it.

hrscowboy
10-17-04, 09:37 AM
buttom line was in the old corps if you was a corporal people under the corporal had respect very seldom did you have to see the sgt unless it was an extreme case. if you was called into the ssgt office you was in some extreme ****...

drillinstructor
10-17-04, 03:02 PM
the old corps? 1775 is old Corps...these young men arrive here for the same reasons we did.it is just 2004 that is the only difference

HardJedi
10-17-04, 03:29 PM
I get so sick and Tired of this Old Corps vs New Corps BS. Look, I am HONORED to have EARNED the Title Of United States Marine. No where at all does it say " Marine of the New Corps"

HEll, I had guy's who enlisted TWO YEARS before me, talking about the way things were back when THEY went through.

It is my suspicion that Talking about how things were in the OLD day's is as much of a Marine Corps tradition as Nov. 10th.

There always has been, and always WILL be those people who slip through the system and don't REALLY deserve the title. No system is perfect.

Hell, compared to anyone who was in the Corps before 1991, I suppose I am NEW CORPS, but I still finished the 20mile Grad hump in SOI with 13 stress fracture in my right leg, and if that doesn't qualify as hard to do, and as hard as anything in the "old Corps" then I don't know what does.


Look, it is NOT the training ANYWAY! it is what a recruit or MARINE puts INTO their training that counts.,

You can yell, hit, curse at , and anything else you want to at a person, but if they are NOT willing to do what it takes, then you CANNOT make them benefit from it.

that's MY .02

LivinSoFree
10-17-04, 03:30 PM
Moto run is the motivational company formation run done Thursday morning the day before graduation. I personally think it's a good addition... it is quite motivating to hear the whole company together, plus as we're running around the base, the guides and squad leaders are ringing the bells in front of the BN HQs as we pass by... letting everyone know that we're the graduating company that week.

HardJedi
10-17-04, 03:33 PM
and are all the MArines DYING today to be looked down upon becuase they are " NEW CORPS?" Those men and women are making us proud, and they are dying for us, no matter WHEN or WHERE they are trained. Wanna tell the Men in Irag that they aren't as good as the "old Corps"?


Gosh darn it, now I am angry as hell. ARRRRRGGG!

LivinSoFree
10-17-04, 04:13 PM
HardJedi, I agree with you as far as that goes. However, I do think it's fair to say that training has changed over the years, and perhaps those differences are not pleasing to everyone... personally, I still think that boot was a hellish 13 weeks, and I consider myself no less of a Marine than any other.

HardJedi
10-17-04, 04:26 PM
of course the training has changed. anything that does not evolve withers and dies.

hrscowboy
10-17-04, 07:39 PM
dang it jedi i am not saying that todays marine is not as good as us old guys we are talking about training thats what were talking about here and emails and phone calls home from bootcamp thats what where talking about. no body said a damn thing about these young men and women are not qualified to be marines I was refering to the training being softer than it was for us old guys .

HardJedi
10-17-04, 07:45 PM
OK, cowboy, MAYBE my response was a LITTLE extreme. I hear what you are saying.

greensideout
10-17-04, 07:50 PM
Originally posted by HardJedi
of course the training has changed. anything that does not evolve withers and dies.

The Marine Corps does not evolve, wither or die!

It holds to the basic foundation that was it's begining.

The old Corps was in 1775, (as has been stated) and the old Corps is in 2004. There is no change to the basic fighting machine that is produced. The recruit has been given the history as a foundation and the current training to become the fighters of today's wars.

That, I beleive is the reason that the Marine Corps continues in it's great history of the finest fighting force in the world.

There is no Old Corps/New Corps, just the Marine Corps.


The Crucible? My problem with that is the claim that, "I did it". It was hard but "I" made it.

One of the things that sets the Marine Corps apart from other branchs of the service is that we don't use "I". It's comes out more like, "WE, OUR, US, TOGETHER".

Yes, you guessed it, you knew it in your heart, felt it in your blood and live it in your mind. It's a big part of what we are about.

Gung Ho.

HardJedi
10-17-04, 07:57 PM
Originally posted by greensideout


The Marine Corps does not evolve,

.

do you REALLY Believe that? That the Marine Corps has not evolved since 1775?

I AGREE that the basics values and spirit have remained the same, but to say that it has not evolved seems........... naive. ( no offense intended)

don't you think that Having Females in the ranks is a change? an air wing? Tanks? so on and so forth? all of those things are changes( evolution) to better help Marines survive. ( well, maybe not the female part, but no WAY, could women be kept out forever.

greensideout
10-17-04, 08:10 PM
OK, lol. I would guess that we are just viewing words differently.

Of course some change has been made, but my premise was that the basic fiber of the Corps has not.

HardJedi
10-17-04, 08:17 PM
ok, then we agree LOL

LivinSoFree
10-18-04, 04:41 PM
I'm not quite sure where anyone got the idea of all these emails and phonecalls home from. The only phonecalls I made were on liberty sunday (not the greatest idea, in my opinion, but so be it). The only exceptions to this were at the discretion of the Senior Drill Instructor, and they were few and far between (like for getting a mouthpiece full of blood at Pugil Sticks, or for shooting "possibles" on rapid fire on qual day).