View Full Version : Old vs. New!
The Marine's Marine once said, "Old breed, new breed, there's not a damn bit of difference so long as it's the Marine Breed." (paraphrased)
At the time that General Puller spoke that now oft-quoted remark it was altogether true.
But is it still true?
To attempt to answer this objectively, we need to look at some facts.
The young men who became the Marines of the Corps, say from the World Wars on, came from a far different American society than the Marines of today's Corps. And, at various points up to now there have been many changes that have occurred resulting in noticable differences between Old Breed and New Breed, Old Corps and New Corps, and these have always been commented on, both privately and publically. For the most part, however, each of these changes and differences were seeming relatively minor in effect, though not all.
But, at some point these differences were not so minor; in fact, collectively , they constitute a major change. Attempting to determine just when this big collective change came about cannot be determined precisely, as these changes have evolved only gradually.
Changes were minor up to and through WW II and Korea. Then numerous events began to occur which changed American society significantly in ways which younger people (now the clear majority) think and behave. Probably, these events, as they have affected the Corps, can be reduced to just a few for purposes of my little spiel here.
1. The Ribbon Creek Incident at Parris Island in 1956, which changed drastically Marine recruit training from what it had been and what it would never be again. The effects of this has long been a heated source of discussion among Marines.
2. And there were the beginnings of the beatnik, and the hippy movements--later succeeded by the yuppies. The effects of which have also long been a souce of discussion for everyone.
3. And the big one--Vietnam, and the constant fear of more Vietnams!
4. There have been a series of assassinations of public figures and others.
5. Then scandals, in public office and elsewhere, one after another, eventually, all the way to the presidency itself.
6. And, of course, Richard Nixon had made good on his campaign promise to end the draft.
7. And now 9/11.
There were other things involved, but the above are the chief factors involved as I see it.
And all the while these events were unfolding, government, Hollywood, the media, schools, etc. were encouraging, modeling, shaping, and reinforcing their agenda for the youth of America. All of this has resulted in profound changes in American society; and not just differences that naturally occur in time with the introduction of new technology and progress.
Obviously, as a result of these changes, American society, and its youth, from which the Marine Corps draws its potential Marines, is vastly different today than that from which came the Marines of WWII, Korea, and even the early '60s. Who can deny, or continue to deny this? But the real question is--to what extent has it affected the Corps? It must be said that the America that older Americans and older Marines once knew, is now gone. So too our Corps of old is also gone--these are facts.
And, this has not just happened overnight, it has been going on now for decades, so the leaders (officers/SNCOs) of even our present Marine Corps have also come from this new society. No, I do not claim that the average Marine of today is altogether representative of today's American society in general. Nor, are all Americans in general entirely representaive of this "Me-too" generation. Not at all. Indeed, many young people today come from families still adhering to American values, principles and integrity. I believe it is from these that the Marine Corps seeks to recruit its new Marines.
Assuming that this is so, it must be because the Marine Corps is aware of the problem, and has made the conscious decision to selectively recruit the best young people available, and it doesn't stop there; they then selectively screen from those applicants/recruits the cream of the crop--then begins the Marine Corps process of molding them into bearers of the title, United States Marine! But has this been successful altogether or only in part, that is the question most people, especially Marines, prefer to dance around, answer in politically correct terms, or avoid entirely.
So, I ask you now--is Puller's remark on Old Breed/New Breed still valid or is it not?
By
R.W. "Dick" Gaines
GySgt USMC (Ret.)
1952-72
Gunny G's Marines sites-Forums
http://www.angelfire.com/ca/dickg/gunny.html
Barndog
10-06-02, 09:26 AM
Gunny..... I can answer that from my own perspective.
My experience with the I&I C company 1/24th Marines here in Lansing, MI - still holds true. The Corps in its traditions, the values it places upon it's leadership, fitness and proficency still without much doubt - Hold Chesty's comments in the highest regard. These are still men of Honor, Integrity and Respect. Not only do they carry it with the pride in which all of us did, they demand it in the same manner as we did.
They will also tell you straight up, that the issues you outline - the societal changes and influnces, have impacted our beloved Corps also. The "10%" we used to have now approaches upwards of 20-25%. In that sense, yes it truely has made an impact.
These same NCO's and SNCO's will also tell you - that they at every opportunity, will identify a shvtbird and provide an opportunity to square them away - or else they are on the fast track OUT. There still is no room in the Corps for that kind of individual.
That, in a sense, is why I feel so drawn again to become involved with these Marines. Even though I do not hold a military ID card, i still earned my Eagle Globe and Anchor the SAME WAY. It is my responsibility, I feel, as a Marine to assist in anyway I can. And if you ask, there are ways for YOU to help them. If your pride sometimes feels a little short, I'll tell you, going to meet some shvt-hot Jarheads with definately motivate you.
Have faith, My Brothers...... I have seen BOTH sides. The Corps is still alive, well, and is always the MARINE BREED.
We still take care of our own.
Random lessons learned in Vietnam:
The further away you are from your friends, the less likely it is that they can help you when you really need them the most.
SAEPE EXPERTUS, SEMPER FIDELIS, FRATRES AETERNI
"Often Tested, Always Faithful, Brothers Forever"
Barndog
top1371
10-06-02, 09:30 AM
Being that I am about to retire, I have been reflecting on this for a while.
I noticed that in our attempt to become PC that we have stopped the Hazing and incentive PT in the Fleet. The Hazing is one thing that I can live without - but it sure was fun:banana:, but the incentive PT was a major tool that was used to correct minor problems.
It allowed these problems to be corrected without ruining a Marines career. IPT aided in instilling dicipline, office hours does not. Giving someone office hours just tears a Marine down and most throw everything down the drain and never recover.
Semper Fi,
Top
wrbones
10-06-02, 02:02 PM
There was a major overhaul of the command structure and the powers wielded by each office at the higher levels of military command during the decade after WWII that has had a dramatic impact on all things military since.
Some things in these changes the Marine Corps benefited from, some were detrimental to all branches of the service. One of the benefits was to ensure by law the mission and operations of the Corps, as well as a seat on the Joint Chiefs which would be, and is, more than a sham. Our existence was never guaranteed at any time prior to this.
In essence, offices such as the Secretary of Defense were granted much more power to directly make decisions concerning battlefield strategy and tactics on a day to day basis, even to the platoon level. This type of behaviour has later come to be termed micro management.
The resulting compromise between a military that was organised after the German High Command structure and one controlled each individually by separate branches of the service under separate command structures directly under the congress is what we live with today.
This is just my opinion based upon what I have read. I need to study this further.
USMC0311
10-06-02, 04:28 PM
I'll ask General Puller next time I see Him
http://www.usmc0311.com/images/bin/ChestyOne.jpg
"It doesn't make a damn bit of difference as long it's the Marine breed."
THE MARINES, MARINE "Chesty" Puller
Time Magazine once said of Chesty;
"He shouted battle orders in a bellow that rattled the Halls of Montezuma. He stalked about under enemy fire as though he were daring anyone to hit him. He had an abiding love for the enlisted man who did the killing and the dying, and a sneering hatred for the staff officers who did the sitting and the meddling. He thrived on combat until he became a legend to his troops... a born leader who went off to a battle with his green eyes gleaming malevolently, a stubby pipe clenched in his crooked mouth and a copy of Caesar's Gallic Wars tucked into his duffel bag."
USMC0311
10-06-02, 04:45 PM
http://www.usmc0311.com/images/bin/pullerribbon.gif
General "Chesty" Pullers Signature
http://www.geocities.com/Pentagon/3201/chesty.html
say hi to Elvis for me too!
Still don't understand why I can't get my Pics to post here.
OK, I'll try again--here's one of The Iwo Flag Raising!
http://groups.msn.com/_Secure/0LwAAAP4QjJd3kBM4HrhKMCjiANDEjqQpsapuWxnnQh3CyFF7I wToZXEG44cnN7UBnmr931JTD3Y/firstflagmed.gif
USMC0311
10-06-02, 04:48 PM
Originally posted by gunnyg
say hi to Elvis for me too!
Still don't understand why I can't get my Pics to post here.
OK, I'll try again--here's one of The Iwo Flag Raising!
http://groups.msn.com/_Secure/0LwAAAP4QjJd3kBM4HrhKMCjiANDEjqQpsapuWxnnQh3CyFF7I wToZXEG44cnN7UBnmr931JTD3Y/firstflagmed.gif
HEY gunnyg
http://www.usmc0311.com/images/bin/mygirls.jpg
from me and my girls :yes:
top1371
10-06-02, 04:51 PM
Check the server that you have the photos on, it may not allow links to the photos.
Semper Fi,
Top
USMC0311
10-06-02, 04:54 PM
Originally posted by gunnyg
say hi to Elvis for me too!
Still don't understand why I can't get my Pics to post here.
OK, I'll try again--here's one of The Iwo Flag Raising!
http://groups.msn.com/_Secure/0LwAAAP4QjJd3kBM4HrhKMCjiANDEjqQpsapuWxnnQh3CyFF7I wToZXEG44cnN7UBnmr931JTD3Y/firstflagmed.gif
I found Elvis..hes on one of yer banners
http://www.angelfire.com/ca/dickg/sites.html
It'll Be awhile before I meet General Puller Again!!
I got 'em on MSN--I can hotling them all over the net--but not here!
DickG
top1371
10-06-02, 05:09 PM
Here is the problem, the editor adds a line break in the url of the image because of the length of the url. I dont think you can fix this as it is a function of this board. If you know how to read HTML view the source of this page and you will see what I mean.
The only option is move the images to a server that you can reference in a shorter url.
Semper fi,
Top
test
your image
<img src="http://groups.msn.com/_Secure/0LwAAAP4QjJd3kBM4HrhKMCjiANDEjqQpsapuWxnnQh3CyFF7I wToZXEG44cnN7UBnmr931JTD3Y/firstflagmed.gif">
my image
<img src="http://gx.hawkweb.com/walking.gif">
USMC0311
10-06-02, 05:27 PM
nice gunnyg..I always thought they was sumthing under girls shirts
got any picks "whats up" ? I heard they got sumthin real special there
Sophora
10-06-02, 05:56 PM
USMC0311, being a woman all I can say is under our skirts we got a peepee hole a caca hole and a recreation hole that has to have an annual plumbing check...otherwise ain't anything special under there :D
USMC0311
10-06-02, 10:02 PM
Originally posted by gunnyg
The Marine's Marine once said, "Old breed, new breed, there's not a damn bit of difference so long as it's the Marine Breed." (paraphrased)
At the time that General Puller spoke that now oft-quoted remark it was altogether true.
But is it still true?
To attempt to answer this objectively, we need to look at some facts.
The young men who became the Marines of the Corps, say from the World Wars on, came from a far different American society than the Marines of today's Corps. And, at various points up to now there have been many changes that have occurred resulting in noticable differences between Old Breed and New Breed, Old Corps and New Corps, and these have always been commented on, both privately and publically. For the most part, however, each of these changes and differences were seeming relatively minor in effect, though not all.
But, at some point these differences were not so minor; in fact, collectively , they constitute a major change. Attempting to determine just when this big collective change came about cannot be determined precisely, as these changes have evolved only gradually.
Changes were minor up to and through WW II and Korea. Then numerous events began to occur which changed American society significantly in ways which younger people (now the clear majority) think and behave. Probably, these events, as they have affected the Corps, can be reduced to just a few for purposes of my little spiel here.
1. The Ribbon Creek Incident at Parris Island in 1956, which changed drastically Marine recruit training from what it had been and what it would never be again. The effects of this has long been a heated source of discussion among Marines.
2. And there were the beginnings of the beatnik, and the hippy movements--later succeeded by the yuppies. The effects of which have also long been a souce of discussion for everyone.
3. And the big one--Vietnam, and the constant fear of more Vietnams!
4. There have been a series of assassinations of public figures and others.
5. Then scandals, in public office and elsewhere, one after another, eventually, all the way to the presidency itself.
6. And, of course, Richard Nixon had made good on his campaign promise to end the draft.
7. And now 9/11.
There were other things involved, but the above are the chief factors involved as I see it.
And all the while these events were unfolding, government, Hollywood, the media, schools, etc. were encouraging, modeling, shaping, and reinforcing their agenda for the youth of America. All of this has resulted in profound changes in American society; and not just differences that naturally occur in time with the introduction of new technology and progress.
Obviously, as a result of these changes, American society, and its youth, from which the Marine Corps draws its potential Marines, is vastly different today than that from which came the Marines of WWII, Korea, and even the early '60s. Who can deny, or continue to deny this? But the real question is--to what extent has it affected the Corps? It must be said that the America that older Americans and older Marines once knew, is now gone. So too our Corps of old is also gone--these are facts.
And, this has not just happened overnight, it has been going on now for decades, so the leaders (officers/SNCOs) of even our present Marine Corps have also come from this new society. No, I do not claim that the average Marine of today is altogether representative of today's American society in general. Nor, are all Americans in general entirely representaive of this "Me-too" generation. Not at all. Indeed, many young people today come from families still adhering to American values, principles and integrity. I believe it is from these that the Marine Corps seeks to recruit its new Marines.
Assuming that this is so, it must be because the Marine Corps is aware of the problem, and has made the conscious decision to selectively recruit the best young people available, and it doesn't stop there; they then selectively screen from those applicants/recruits the cream of the crop--then begins the Marine Corps process of molding them into bearers of the title, United States Marine! But has this been successful altogether or only in part, that is the question most people, especially Marines, prefer to dance around, answer in politically correct terms, or avoid entirely.
So, I ask you now--is Puller's remark on Old Breed/New Breed still valid or is it not?
By
R.W. "Dick" Gaines
GySgt USMC (Ret.)
1952-72
Gunny G's Marines sites-Forums
http://www.angelfire.com/ca/dickg/gunny.html
You posed the question Gunny.. Now I ask wtf do U think Marine
"No teki, No washie GI"
firstsgtmike
10-07-02, 01:43 AM
The question as not asked of me, but I choose to respond.
In the bicentennial edition of Leatherneck magazine there was a poem. When Captain Nichols at Tun's Tavern started recruiting to form a Marine Corps, he offered anyone who joined up, a free beer. The original enlistees were seated at a table, enjoying their free beer. To 'sweeten the pot' Captain Nichols offered TWO free beers to anyone who would join the original enlisteees. When the offer was accepted, and they sat down, they were told, "In the OLD CORPS, we only got ONE free beer, you kids are spoiled."
The Corps is steeped in tradition. We honor our obligations to those Marines who preceeded is. They are our heroes, our role models. We strive to measure up to THEIR expectations. We CANNOT let THEM down.
We are fortunate in that we have only two boot camps and one syllabus. A DI from PI can leave a platoon in the 18th day of training, take over a platoon in SD on its 19th day of training, and NEVER miss a beat. We are taught to be MARINES.
I/we can relate to today's MCRD graduates, as well as we can to those who graduated with us, and generations before us.
The raw material our Corps has to work with may be affected by changing times, but our Corps does not mold itself to the individual, the individual molds itself to the Corps.
A MARINE today is the equal of a MARINE 100 years ago. And a shvtbird today is no better and no worse than a shvtbird of 100 years ago.
That's MY opinion.
Semper Fi
wrbones
10-07-02, 02:09 AM
outstanding post, Marine! One of the best I've seen!
USMC0311
10-07-02, 05:38 AM
Thats it inna nut shell First Sergeant.
I my day we had the WW2 and Korea Veterans For Our Hero's.
After that Vietnam Vets also became my Hero's.
I am proud of ALL Combat Marines for the Job they have fulfilled. They too are my Hero's.
Every Marine that I have personally met, has distinguished himself with the Pride that the Corps has Instilled in them.
Every Marine that makes it through Boot Camp has my Respect for fulfilling the commitment.
BUT because of various reasons Todays Marines have a hard time Living OUR Traditions.
Affirmative action, Liberal Ideology's, and Politics have been infecting our Military and effecting the performance and commitment to Esprit de Corps.
I do believe Marines will Do their Jobs in any Combat situation. When they do they too will also be Hero's
I can only Imagine how difficult it is for a Marine to be trained to Preform and never have that chance to "Do It".
Our Society has turned into one of suck-asses and self-serving people for the MOST part. "Don't ask, Don't Tell" and everyone and everything will be going to Hell.
Tun Tavern...or was it really...the Conestoga Wagon?
;)
DickG