Telling it like it is...shades of Vietnam...

[MillRatUSMC]

IRAQ IN TRANSITION: IN RAMADI

Marines grow wary of even friendly faces
Ordered early on to wave at civilians and win them over, GIs intent on goodwill in a roiled Sunni city now are having second thoughts.

By Mike Dorning
Tribune correspondent
Published September 16, 2004

RAMADI, Iraq -- Marine Cpl. Travis Friedrichsen, a sandy-haired 21-year-old from Denison, Iowa, used to take Tootsie Rolls and lollipops out of care packages from home and give them to Iraqi children. Not anymore.

"My whole opinion of the people here has changed. There aren't any good people," said Friedrichsen, who says his first instinct now is to scan even youngsters' hands for weapons.

Subtle hostility extends to Iraqi adults, and evidence of betrayal among some of the country's officials is causing some American troops to have second thoughts.

"We're out here giving our lives for these people," said Sgt. Jesse Jordan, 25, of Grove Hill, Ala. "You'd think they'd show some gratitude. Instead, they don't seem to care."

When new troops rotated into Iraq early in the spring, the military portrayed the second stage of the occupation as a peacekeeping operation focused at least as much on reconstruction as on mopping up rebel resistance.

Even in strongholds of the Sunni insurgency such as Ramadi, a restive provincial capital west of Baghdad, the Marine Corps sent in its units with a mission to win over the people as well as smite the enemy. Commanders worked to instill sympathy for the local population through sensitivity training and exhortations from higher officers.

Marines were ordered to show friendliness through "wave tactics," including waving at people on the street. Few spend much time waving these days.

But the hard reality of frequent hit-and-run attacks, roadside bombs showering military vehicles with shrapnel and mortars exploding on their base has left plenty of Marines, particularly grunts on the ground, disillusioned and bitter.

Deployment in the spring

Since the 2nd Battalion, 4th Marine Regiment, deployed in the area six months ago, 34 Marines have died and more than a quarter of the 1,000-member unit has been wounded. Now, as the battalion nears the end of its deployment, virtually every Marine in Ramadi has been shot at or seen a bomb or rocket-propelled grenade explode, and many have had several such brushes with death, commanders said.

Along with the heavy toll of attacks by insurgents, the Marines cite other sources of frustration. High among them is the scarcity of tips from Iraqis on the locations of the roadside bombs that kill and maim Marines, even though the explosives frequently are placed in well-trafficked areas where bomb teams probably would be observed.

Then there are the hostile glares that adults in the community give to passing American military patrols, and treachery from high-profile allies, such as the provincial police chief who was arrested last month amid strong suspicions that he was working with the insurgency.

Some Marines say the sense that their presence is unappreciated calls into question the entire project in Iraq, which they consider a liberation that should be welcomed. But other Marines said their support for the intervention is undiminished, as direct contact with the enemy strengthens their conviction that the U.S. faces threats that require decisive action.

Commanders acknowledge a shift in attitude toward Iraqis among troops but insist it makes little difference in accomplishing their mission. The Marines are a disciplined fighting force and under orders to treat Iraqis "with dignity," said Maj. Mike Wylie, the battalion executive officer.

But Iraqis clearly can pick up on the feelings of ground troops they encounter--one of the reasons that Marine commanders were originally so eager to promote a friendly attitude. Commanders have long emphasized that even casual interactions can produce valuable intelligence and win trust.

In a place where American soldiers are at constant risk of surprise attack, ill will shortens fuses even further.

"We're not taking any chances: Shoot first and ask questions later," said Lance Cpl. David Goward, 26, a machine gunner from Cloquet, Minn. "We're a lot more dangerous now. I'm not going home in a body bag, and neither is the person next to me."

Extended military engagement against an insurgency rarely breeds cozy relations among soldiers and civilians. But the American military's strict rules of engagement about when soldiers can shoot and when they can't are designed to limit the impact that passions can have on actions on the battlefield, said
retired Brig. Gen. David Grange, a former Special Forces commander.

The acts of friendship that Marines undertook when they arrived in Ramadi now in some cases heighten their resentment toward the city's residents.

After a series of ambushes one April day that killed a dozen Marines, Cpl. Jason Rodgers saw a familiar face among a group of slain attackers. The dead Iraqi, who was lying inches from a grenade, was a shopkeeper Rodgers had called on several times during foot patrols, he said.

`I felt like I'd been betrayed'

"I felt like I'd been betrayed, personally," said Rodgers, 22, of Susanville, Calif. "I'd stood there, talking to him, shaking his hand, giving his kid candy. And he'd been studying our moves the whole time."

Capt. Rob Weiler, commander of the battalion's mobile assault company, arrived in Iraq toting a copy of the Federalist Papers and an American government textbook along with his M-16 and body armor, expecting to spend as much time
advising local leaders new to democracy as he did fighting off insurgents.

Even as Weiler and his company fought attacks by insurgents around the city, he threw himself into the task of assisting with reconstruction works. He met with leaders to assess needs and hired local contractors to complete several projects, including renovation of a school.

But as a convoy of Marines pulled up to the school one day in late May to check on the contractors' progress, he said, a roadside bomb exploded in front of the building, wounding two Marines.

"It was extremely difficult for me to believe that none of the people that I was employing to do things to improve their lives and the lives of their children knew anything about it," Weiler said.

Likewise, Sgt. Curtis Neill cites a rocket-propelled grenade attack on his platoon as it passed some shops one hot August day. When the Marines responded, the attacker fled, but they found that he had established a comfortable and obvious position to lie in wait.

There, in an alleyway beside the shops was a seat and ammunition for the grenade launcher--along with a pitcher of water and a half-eaten bowl of grapes, said Neill, who was so amazed that he took photos of the setup.

`That's why I'm bitter'

"You could tell the guy had been hanging out all day. It was out in the open. Every single one of the guys in the shops could tell the guy was set up to attack us," said Neill, 34, of Colrain, Mass. "That's the problem. That's why I'm bitter toward the people."

Navy Lt. Kenneth Son, the battalion surgeon, said he has seen a complete 180-degree turn in the attitudes of Marines toward the Iraqi people.

"When they first came, I was able to discern . . . some glimmer of hopefulness that we would be able to make a difference in the lives of Iraqis," Son said. "I do see that glimmer of hope has dimmed. What some say is maybe there is a reason that the previous regime controlled the country in such a heavy-handed way."

Seem I remember something like this after being in Vietnam for a while.

[hrscowboy]

I am sorry but we need to quit pussy footing around with this war in iraq and start going to house to house and taking any and all weapons from everyone, Here again Us veterans of Vietnam are hearing and seeing the same things that went on with us. During the day the chinks were your friends and at night you recieved rockets from these same chinks that where your friends. Its time to open the gates of hell on these people and take all weapons away from everyone. you have seen what these men are saying to the media its time to take the fight to them and not let them bring it too us..

[HardJedi]

Gotta agree with the Cowboy on this one. Only problem is, our nation is always more worried ,it seems, about how we appear to the international community, than the saftey of our own troops.

I say, to hell with what anyone thinks of us. whats the rest of the world gonna do? gang up and invade us?

[hrscowboy]

Its time for our nation to get down and dirty, If another country attacks us we shouldnt give a rats ass what the international commumity thinks, Where are they now on this war in iraq? The last time i looked it was still the U.S. and the british that was paying for the real deal, so screw the international community thats the bottom line...

[Sgted]

What makes all this so much worse for me is these peoples total disregard for human life, the well being of their towns & cities and (especially) their children.
The Arab community is a very angry community.
Their anger is always directed at the West when, in fact, they should look inward at the intense hatred they all seem to harbor and why they choose to live in this way.
Incredible as they are all steeped in a religious fevor that enables them to be among the most non productive humans on earth.
They contribute nothing to the world community but anger, carnage and misery.
Oh....and oil.
I really believe they want the American & Brits to leave so they can engage themselves in a nice civil war. One in which they can really slaughter each other.
Nirvana.
Am I being cold or maybe not trying to understand their culture ???.........perhaps.
I'll learn all that makes them tick when they try to learn 10% of what makes their liberators tick.
With all the time they seem to have on their hands they are determined to make the non Muslim world a fearful place with the infidels blood staining the soil.
Sounds like Allah is really sending them a bum message.
IN SPITE of the constant praying.

[Sparrowhawk]

In Vietnam.

Sometimes it depended where we were. In the villages where we maintained CAC units the villagers were friendly and helpful and often supplied us with information on the VC/NVA that operated in the area.

They were often targeted by the enemy and their villagers and people of influence in the village kidnapped, killed or assassinated for the impact it made on the villagers.

In other places like No Name Village at the foot of Hill 52, we got the stares and the look of hatred our troops are now receiving in Iraq. One of the fiercest battles I fought in was at the entrance to that village.

While we have won the hearts and minds of the silent majority in Iraq, it’s the terrorist and the cities they operate in that our troops come in contact with daily.


But, that open hostility didn't stop us from doing our jobs in Vietnam and I don't think it will stop us from doing it now in Iraq.

One thing for sure we fight them there or here.

The more and more we learn about the Arab terrorist operating there, the more I am glad we are fighting them on their home turfs, where ever they operate.


In Iraq since the beginning of the war, a year and a half of fighting has cost us 1000 lives of our finest. But we cannot forget that if we don't fight them there that in less then 1 hour the Arab terrorist killed 3000 US citizens here in America.


We keep fighting them like we have been, or just nuke the whole place. I would not hesitate to do that, and save American lives.

To pull out would only invite them to come here and we would be fighting them like Israel has had to. In out shopping centers, and in public places where the innocent live and play and it would be civilians paying the price not our warriors.


Cook

[Laamie]

Let them kill each other.

Than, if a threat or ack of terrorism is done by the remaining Iraqies, eliminate them with whatever means may be necessary. Tired of this PC crap & ROE that is taking Americans lives.

Wave my ass. Full automatic, let the rifle wave from the recoil.

I think it is time to pull out of a lot of countries-- and apply the above if threatened by them.

You get my snail mail "Jocks"?
S/F,
Dick

[MillRatUSMC]

Not yet on the snail mail, maybe tomorrow...sorry about DaPackers losing to my lowly DaBears...DaPackers took them to lightly never underestimate an underdog...hades to pay...
Next time it might be different...
On this post, I been thinking...they might be hints of low morale as was the question by Sgt. Ben of how was the support back home.
We have to read between the lines to see what these Marines are really telling us.
Add to that mix all these reservists that are on their second deployment and many on their first deployment that don't want to be there.
A volunteer force that being stretched to the max and they see that they alone are carrying the burden.
Hints to me that morale is low
IMHO

Semper Fidelis/Semper Fi
Ricardo

[ivalis]

the forking packers, poor amahn green, proves the old adage, one "o' ****" wipes out a thousand atta boys.

as far as Iraq goes, according to our commandate less that zero, everything is peachy.

what world does GW live in?

[Sparrowhawk]

[i]We have to read between the lines to see what these Marines are really telling us.
Add to that mix all these reservists that are on their second deployment and many on their first deployment that don't want to be there.
A volunteer force that being stretched to the max and they see that they alone are carrying the burden.
Hints to me that morale is low
IMHO
Semper Fidelis/Semper Fi
Ricardo [/B]

I read that loud and clear and my heart aches for them and if I could I would be proud to carry their ammo at their side.

Semper Fi

Cook

[MillRatUSMC]

Been searching on "Stop/Loss"
Found one statement...that Stop/Loss is really an indicator that our military is too small for all the missions that it has to carry out.
One Army General estimated that it would require over 200,000 troops in Iraq.
He was laugh at for those numbers, seem that he was right on.
The National Guard is paying as many others on Stop/Loss.
This suit might be the tip of the spear if many more sign on this suit.
Might it necessitate a "Draft" in the future?
Will there be exemptions?
If so who or what jobs will be exempted from serving.
Might many of the rich be leaving for Europe to study as was done during the Vietnam war...

Semper Fidelis/Semper Fi
Ricardo

[CAR]

Are we doomed to repeat the mistakes of Vietnam? Are we really a paper tiger as Bin Laden has said?

I guess the time to find out is now. I truly wish we didn't have to fight in Iraq or anyplace else for that matter but here's our reality: There are countries, organizations, and just plain crazies that want to do us harm. The President has raised the call to war and we as a country MUST see it through. I believe we are in a just war, and as all wars go the other side is not playing by our game plan.

I was just a small boy when Nam was going on, but growing up I formed an image of the Vietnam Vetran. I pictured a dirty, drug addicted men who were accused of commiting horrible crimes. You know the "Apocolypse Now" look. It wasn't until I was in my early teens that I began to read and see the truth about how this country treated our own warriors. I realized that my opinion was formed, like many other youngsters, by what I was told in school, shown on TV, and heard from "people on the street". I was misinformed. Sure bad things happened, but it shouldn't paint all the warriors with the same brush.

In my opion, today we face a somewhat similar dilema. We have a War going on for the right reason, the safety of OUR Country. The Focus doesn't seem to be on the "bad" guys it seems to be a continuous bashing of the President and his administration. The "bashing" isn't what bothers me, what bothers me is the hatered behind it. So much so that "they " are willing to blame America for everything just to get the media coverage and to build discourse in the nation. Flame the fires if you will. Do we have the freedom to do so, you bet! But there lies the problem, because you have the freedom to do so does not mean you do so with no regard for your actions. As discourse builds, the media pushes the story, the haters continue to try to discredit anything we do. The result is that spineless political leaders go with the momentum of the loudest. Next thing you know we have elected officials saying that his is a wrong war and that the president is lying to you, that we should pull out and not antagonize those who wish to harm us, just keep the peace!

Like Nam, it started with support. Like Nam, the goal is being lost in the politics. Like Nam, the hatred for our leaders by some of our own citizens empowers the enemy to believe that if they just hold on a bit longer the American people will demand we pull out. And like Nam if we continue down this ridiculas path we are just a stones throw away from calling our warriors murderers again.

I will never allow it. I will make sure that my children always learn the truth. I praise all of our warriors from all wars, and give special thanks to those during the vietnam war, Our country turned its back on them and they still fight for it's freedom today.

To all my brothers in harms way I pray for your safe return and History will prove your work to be just.

Semper Fi

[hrscowboy]

Cook you and i both know how charley fought over there just as well as other brothers here in leatherneck. as one of the corporals said one dude was waiting in ambush all damn day around the shops and no one reported him. damn booby traps on the side of the roads killing our women and men also but yet for some reason our commander in chief makes a statement mission accomplished well what the hell has it accomplished other than getting saddam and his crooks in custody. did anyone think to seal all borders when we went in there and allow no one to enter or leave iraq??? now we have these rebels kidnapping american people and beheading them, Did anyone think to cancel all visas and work permits outside the united states for American People and not allow any american people inside Iraq other than military? Its time to forget about WMD cause there aint any and wasnt when we went in there that has been proven. Then we hear that our country is going to give this tirrant sadam back to the people and let them do with him what they want? What about the men and women that have died because of this tirrant buttom line i say we give sadam to hauge and let them try him as a war criminal like we did the japs and the germans. buttom line cook and you know it as well as i do you cant kill what you cant see, its time to turn our boys loose and do swat team searches of all buildings and people and take everything that can be used as a weapon. we need to leave there with the impression that we will be your friends but if you cross us or trick us we will be your worse freekin nightmare.

[hrscowboy]

I dont have a problem helping other countries but when they dont help themselves then screw them.

[Sparrowhawk]

Originally posted by CAR
Are we doomed to repeat the mistakes of Vietnam? Are we really a paper tiger as Bin Laden has said?
To all my brothers in harms way I pray for your safe return and History will prove your work to be just.

Semper Fi

Well-said, outstanding piece. You put into words what we all feel; your writing should be send to every newspaper in America to their editor.

You will be surprised how many newspapers have printed what I submitted all across the nation in cities I have never been to, but they printed what I said.

I urge you email it to those papers, as you have written what many veterans feel and what the once again American silent majority feels.

Semper Fi

Cook

[Sgted]

I second COOK's suggestion CAR.
A good bit of writing.
Send it to all the newspapers you can.

I tend to get a bit hot headed about these things.
You, however, have written a level headed letter that all Americans should read.

[hrscowboy]

I also agree CAR

[CAR]

Thank you gentlmen, Cook I may try to send something to my local paper, getting tired of reading the same "the sky is falling" stories. Thanks for the boost.

[rsta]

Outstanding, CAR! Indeed, a good bit of writing which needs to be passed on.

[Sparrowhawk]

Originally posted by CAR
Thank you gentlmen, Cook I may try to send something to my local paper, getting tired of reading the same "the sky is falling" stories. Thanks for the boost.

That would be a shock to its readers if its published. LOL





Is Clovis still just a narrow stripe of 7-11's on one side of the road? LOL

Used to pick peaches in Sanger....

[hrscowboy]

Picked peaches hahaha cook you aint picked peaches in your entire life you was born a marine the only thing you know is M-60s hahaha

[MillRatUSMC]

http://www.cdi.org/friendlyversion/printversion.cfm?documentID=2208&from_page=../program/document.cfm
Excerpt from the above.

General Anthony Zinni USMC;
"On the bad side, I see an insurgency that is about in its mid-life. You know what happens, this is a classic Maoist insurgency. It’s not uniquely Islamist, it’s classically Maoist. You begin by disabling the infrastructure; frightening the people; attacking the outside interveners; attacking those that cooperate with them. Show them that the local authorities are ineffective. You do this by a series of violent acts, terrorist activities. We saw this in Vietnam. You saw it in classic insurgencies."

"You then move to convince people that the government is powerless and corrupt; that the outside intervention forces are there as powers to dominate colonial powers. And you try to make the case that you are the only viable representative they have. And eventually you move that to civil war. Unless the insurgency completes itself and succeeds, you’ll move it to civil war."

"The civil war will be between whoever, ethnic groups, more likely between those that support the good news, the change, the cooperation with the U.S. or whoever, and those that now reject it, that side with the other side."

"When this started to come about and I realized that it was wrong. I realized that if I speak out, I lose either way. If I’m wrong, you know, another guy who couldn’t figure it out. If I’m right, it means we have casualties, lost treasure and our image around the world is destroyed."

"It was a lose-lose proposition from the beginning. And so it was very painful to go down this road. I did not want to be right. I also knew by not being right, that was going to be painful too. But, it had to be said, because I can’t stand looking at the end of another news story and seeing the faces of those young kids."

"Let me give you an example – the War on Terrorism. I think we do a masterful job at the tactical level. We attack al Qaeda on the ground. We break down the finances. We break down the cells. We get law enforcement cooperation around the world doing wonderful damage to the organization. Yet, as an ideology and a movement, it has grown."

"If I were to analyze, from a strategic point of view, al Qaeda - and, I’m not saying this is the right analogy, but it’s just an example - the strategic center of gravity for al Qaeda and Osama bin Laden is a pool of angry, young men willing to die. What causes angry young men willing to die?"

"They’re willing to die because there’s a political, economic or social reason. Some sense of disenfranchisement. Some sense of oppression that makes them angry, fires them up, and makes them tempted to come to al Qaeda. Now, that isn’t enough to get them to blow themselves up and to do horrific acts. You need a rationale. You need something that justifies what they do."

"At the operational level, the center of gravity is the aberrant form of Islam that they’re able to use on them to provide the sense of reward, and rationale and justification for what the do. And then the set of tactics that work so well against us, because it is asymmetric."

"If you think about it on those three levels, I have to go after this “War on Terrorism,” which is even a bad name. I have to go after this movement of extremism at three levels. How do I cut that flow of angry young men? How do I make sure that aberrant form of Islam is rejected? Or encourage others to, and I’ve got some thoughts on all this, but I won’t go into it here. And do the things that we do well at the tactical level. But, you don’t have that kind of strategic thinking."

Semper Fidelis/Semper Fi
Ricardo

[Sgt. Smitty]

If Iraq is gonna be another Nam, then our troops are fighting another war with one hand tied behind their backs and the other in an oversized boxing glove. Why does this govt. send our boys off to war and then tie their hands like they did in Nam? We were put in no-win situations and expected to die fighting a regular army. The gooks in Nam and the ragheads in Iraq are of the same mentality when it comes to their outlooks on life. They think of life as a preperation for death, not as something to be enjoyed like we think of it. It's a strange mentality, and it's hard for people of this country to understand this kind of thinking. It goes against everything we were taught to believe in and can never be fully understood by the every-day American. The only thing i can say to our brothers and sisters over there is "TRUST NO ONE" except your brothers and sisters and you may just make it home alive and in one piece.

[hrscowboy]

I couldnt have said it better Sgt Smitty Trust No One and have all your guns loaded and ready..

[RichLundeen]

history lesson
Saigon and Saddam
The use and abuse of Vietnam analogies.
By David Greenberg
Posted Monday, April 19, 2004, at 3:16 PM PT



The Vietnam War is again dividing the country, this time by analogy. Doves liken the Iraqi occupation to the Indochina debacle. Hawks tick off the obvious differences. All this comparing and contrasting shouldn't be surprising. A law of rhetorical entropy seems to decree that every American war since 1975–Grenada, El Salvador, Nicaragua, Panama, Bosnia, Kosovo, Kuwait, Afghanistan—tends toward comparison with Vietnam.

Indeed, for more than a year, hardly a month has passed without some new invocation of the Vietnam parallel. Even before the Iraq invasion, critics of the rush to war pointed to Vietnam as a cautionary reminder about the arrogance of power. The ground war had lasted barely a week before skeptics and hacks began whispering the dreaded word "quagmire."

The Vietnam parallel returned with a vengeance during last fall's controversy over Saddam's missing weapons cache. The dawning recognition that the Bush team's zeal for war had led it to misread data—and consequently to misrepresent the Iraqi threat to the world—stirred memories of another phony casus belli, the Gulf of Tonkin attacks of August 1964. Meanwhile, the administration's relentlessly upbeat forecasts and its withholding of key information opened a credibility gap reminiscent of Lyndon Johnson's.

In the past few weeks, the occupation has inspired still more Vietnam comparisons—this time to the ill-fated "pacification" program. Violent uprisings have shown far greater Iraqi anger toward the American presence than was assumed. The enemy of our enemy, it turned out, wasn't our friend: Many Iraqis thrilled about Saddam's ouster nonetheless had little love for their occupiers. But the Vietnam experience suggested that the odds against winning the "hearts and minds" of the Iraqi populace were long. Pacification failed in Vietnam, after all, both because the Army always focused mainly on its military goals, and, more important, because most Vietnamese didn't wish to be pacified. Discouraged and sour, U.S. troops put stock in an officer's memorable line: "Grab 'em by the balls and their hearts and mind will follow." That approach failed, too.

For all the resemblances, however, even most occupation critics agree that history isn't repeating itself. The Vietnam parallel, like all historical analogies, admits as many differences as similarities. Each time Vietnam is invoked, some administration booster effortlessly reels off the countless contrasts: the relative brevity of the American term in Iraq; the lighter casualty toll; the wholly different nature of the enemy. Most significantly, in Iraq the main battlefield victories have already been won. And so the Vietnam parallels and contrasts degenerate into partisan claims and counterclaims.

(What does genuinely echo Vietnam, however, is the barrage of scurrilous attacks against those who question the occupation. Richard Nixon used to argue, in a textbook case of black-is-white newspeak, that protesters who demanded an immediate end to the war were actually prolonging it—rather like saying that Martin Luther King Jr. was prolonging segregation. Now, sadly, that twisted logic is being revived to try to disparage administration critics.)

But if Vietnam offers little in the way of usable lessons today, it remains relevant as history and as a large part of the explanation of how we got into Iraq at all. Among the American public, especially on the left, Vietnam conferred a deep wariness—"the Vietnam Syndrome"—about military intervention. The war chastened many Cold Warriors, teaching them the wisdom of humility in foreign affairs. It demolished the domino-theory logic that had transformed the moderate policy of containment into an untenable duty to police the world for Communist influence.

But the Vietnam Syndrome had harmful consequences, too. If it rightly showed many liberals that the Nicaraguan Sandinistas posed no threat to the United States, it also blinded them to the wisdom of such interventions as the first Gulf War, which stopped a regional menace from taking over its neighbors, or the Balkan interventions, which saved thousands of Muslims. And the Vietnam Syndrome also saddled the Democratic party with a reputation as soft on defense, which Republicans have regularly exploited at the polls.

Along with the Vietnam Syndrome on the left, however, the Indochina war also bequeathed a different neurotic complex to the right. The Vietnam humiliation naturally spawned the sorts of "stabbed in the back" myths that accompany most lost wars: wishful claims that even more American troops and firepower could have, somehow, prevailed; that only a lack of will led to defeat.

Such thinking influenced conservative policymakers disenchanted with the realpolitik of Nixon and Henry Kissinger. In the 1970s, most leading diplomatic thinkers shared Nixon and Kissinger's view that America was declining as a hegemony and had to share global power with the Soviet Union, China, Europe, and Japan. Many on the right, however, including Dick Cheney and other key Bush advisers today, concluded otherwise.

Vietnam helped convince them that America had to deploy armed force around the world more often and with fewer qualms. The exercise of American might could not only achieve diplomatic ends but also dispel the debilitating shame of Vietnam.

This outlook gained strength in the 1980s. The movie Rambo: First Blood, with its narrative of avenging the Vietnam defeat, embodied the spirit of the age. Ronald Reagan's invasion of Grenada didn't much affect the long-term security of the United States, but it did induce waves of patriotic pride. George Bush Sr.'s 1989 invasion of Panama similarly did little militarily but remove a thorn in the president's side. Symbolically, though, it showed that the American armed forces were back and ready for action. Two years later, after the successful expulsion of Saddam's army from Kuwait, Bush could claim he had kicked the Vietnam Syndrome once and for all.

But the claim was premature, and not just because Saddam remained in power. The Vietnam Syndrome endures because Americans remain profoundly ambivalent about the use of military force to work our will. As well we should.

David Greenberg writes the "History Lesson" column and teaches at Rutgers University. He is the author of Nixon's Shadow: The History of an Image.

Article URL: http://slate.msn.com/id/2099168/

[ridingcrops]

Well I see shades of the Nam here too.
Friends by day and ready to shoot you at night. And I agree the hell with what everyone else thinks. If they don't like it they should take over the duty in Iraq. We can turn it over to those real heros the French.
But until then let's quite screwing around with these people and show then that we won't olerate this BS any longer.
And the best way to start is to get rid of these reporters. Every time someone sneezes on a civilian thses *******s are there to make a big thing out of it. Our guys are not bad guys and they sure aren't going to do anything that isn't called for but the reporters make us think they are.

[Sgt. Smitty]

So what if Iraqi POWs get mistreated, at least they get to keep their friggin heads!!!!!!!!!!!! I say do unto others as they do to you.......see how they like gettin their heads lopped off for a change!!!!!!!

[Toby M]

The Iraqi's need to be made to understand that due to the current situation in THEIR country, each and every Iraqi is to be considered fair and open game (regardless of their official affiliations at the moment) and will be dealt with accordingly! Our country needs to stop screwing around and start getting a different attitude or we will most assuredly end up with another Viet Nam! We aren't there yet but are rapidly moving in the direction...

[MillRatUSMC]

What bothers me that Rules of Engagement has reared it's ugly head again as it did in Vietnam, Beirut Lebanon, now in Iraq.
We worry about damage to some that might be combatants.
Those oppose to us have no qualms about who they kill, harm or what they damage.
Again the military is fighting with hand tied behind their back...

Semper Fidelis/Semper Fi
Ricardo

[MillRatUSMC]

Correction my last;
What bothers me that Rules of Engagement has reared it's ugly head again as it did in Vietnam, Beirut Lebanon, now in Iraq.
We worry about damage to some that might not be combatants.
Those oppose to us have no qualms about who they kill, harm or what they damage.
Again the military is fighting with hand tied behind their back...

Semper Fidelis/Semper Fi
Ricardo

[Namvet67]

All excellent comments by those who have seen action in Vietnam. If you haven't been there you would not understand or if you have to ask you would not understand. Sorta like asking a biker why he chooses to ride a Harley.

[hrscowboy]

I say move our troops out of harms way and nuke this damn country just like truman did the japs and let these other countries know if you harbour terriorist you can get the same. its time for the united states to get tough if where going to be the police department for the world then its time we really showed these countries where not going to tolerate this ****...