What Price Freedom? Heckle Bush, Lose Your Job

[thedrifter]

What Price Freedom? <br />
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- <br />
<br />
Heckle Bush, Lose Your Job <br />
By JOHN RABY <br />
Aug 21, 2004, 22:03 <br />
<br />
CHARLESTON, W.Va. - A man...

[hrscowboy]

hummm well i guess since our President and ashcroft have changed all the laws due to the patriot act we as americans dont have the freedom of speech anymore. But its ok to burn my flag and take my ten commandments away and tell our children we cant pray in schools or say the pledge of allegience.

[Catz1611]

That's Interesting...You guess we as Americans don't have freedom of speech?? I'd say you're very wrong...just ask all the Anti war protestors and people like Moore.

Not to mention I don't see where that Company was wrong..The guy should have kept his bearing and not caused a scene. Or shouldn't have been there to start with..

Perhaps that's the way he normally operates and the company didn't want a troublemaker or someone who would give the company a bad name on their payroll.

[HardJedi]

guy got what he deserved. plain and simple. it's not as though the GOVERNMENT prosocuted the guy. he obviously violated a company policy, and that is grounds for termination.

I sure as heck WISH i had freedom of speech at a WORK RELATED or WORK CONNECTED event, but I don't and no one DOES.

I agree that it is wrong to burn the flag, could care LESS about the ten commandments, and every kid I know STILL praysin school, so it's just a restriction of ORGANIZED prayer inPUBLIC schools, and that I also agree with.

:D

[d c taveapont]

its been awhile since i posted but what happened is plain BS..those who speak out against the present Gov well be blacklisted and silenced at all costs..geez the next thing to go will be your rights be bare arms..let the homeland security protect you...Naaa

[HardJedi]

tc HOW does this situation have ANYTHING to do with the GOVERNMENT?

[hrscowboy]

hardjedi if your grandmother or momma heard you say that about the Ten commandments your arse would be grass and they would be the lawn mowers....

[HardJedi]

nah, my family is used to my "godless" "heathen" way's. I have made a lifelong study of religions, and they know my opinions. Though they DO still tell me that I am gonna burn in hell :D

[hrscowboy]

Yep i knew that they was jumping on ya.

[al20852]

In many countries in this world heckling the president or even writing a critical article or letter gets you dead. I thought that's why we (among other reasons) are in Iraq. Notwithstanding the Patriot Act, one of the best things about America is that you can state your opinion without fear of punishment or retribution. At least I thought you could.

What's next? The stormtroopers come out of the woodwork and beat the crap out of you.

[HardJedi]

Good LORD Captain! are you SERIOUS? what is it people are having trouble understanding here? HIS EMPLOYER fired him for projecting an image that hurt their BUSINESS! THAT is ALSO the American WAY.

Or wait, since we are all Americans, and we have freedom of speech, that means, as a PFC , when I was in the Corps, becuase I had freedom of speech, I shoulda just told my platoon commander he was a jerk faced little weenie who could kiss my A$$? Cause that's what I thought of him. And no one coulda punished me for it, correct? After all, I AM and American, with freedom of speech and expression.

[eddief]

I don't see how he embarrased the company. The article says that the fascists drowned him out with their "Four more years!" chants.

[al20852]

You know l that our rights as Marines were not the same as they were when we were civilians. I will grant you tho that if you called your boss a jerk he could fire you unless you had a pretty good union. I just don't think that making a poilitical statement outside the workplace is the same thing. Besides, I'll bet you that few people would have known who his employer was until the employer made it an issue.

[2091351]

There are other contries to live in, maybe this guy shoud consider a change of station? Perhaps Sudan?

Employees need not embarrass their employer. Losing his job might have been the better deal, working under real abuse is tough duty.

Take care-Steve

[hrscowboy]

Nope hardjedi i believe if i am correct and until i stand corrected when you signed that dotted line you lost your rights, The only rights you had was the UCMJ if i am not correct.

[enviro]

I guess we're all fascists now if we support Bush? Damn Eddie - I thought you'd get it right by now - we are Nazis!

Seriously though, in the corporate world if you embarrass the company, you're fired. While you may not have seen why the company was embarrassed, they felt they were. He's fired. He was an invited guest of a client. That's never a time to act like an ass.

Let's say you were a big shot executive that supported John Kerry. You come to my advertising company (cause we provide your advertising) and offer up some tickets to a John Kerry event. My boss sends me and a few others to be your guests. We are all having a good time until I stand up and start reaming John Kerry for being a chickensh|t traitor. I'm just speaking my mind right? Freedom of speech right? Sure it is - but I just embarrassed the hell out of you. Even though you and everyone else at this function supports Kerry, I had to stand out and act a fool.

The guy shouldn't have gone to a Bush rally if he doesn't support Bush. He shouldn't have gone under the pretense that he would support Bush. Otherwise, I'm sure the guy who invited them would have left him at home.

The guy is a moron. The guy hates Bush. Coincidence? I don't think so.

[cknow]

I agree that the individual had the right to express his views.... but he should have made those views plain to the person he got the ticket from.

[James C Simpson]

U girls want some cheese 2 go w/that whine

[eddief]

enviro
I wouldn't fire anyone for expressing opposing political views. I would make them throw darts at my Bush dartboard though. As for my comment about fascists, that's aimed at the chanting and glazy eyed Bush fanatics.

[enviro]

Then simply put, you would not stay in business very long.

What do you call the chanting and glazy eyed anti-Bush fanatics?

[HardJedi]

chanting and glazy -eyed. like a cult tight? LOL as opposed to the reserved, refined, Kerry fanatics LOL

[GunnyL]

al20852,

He wasn't outside of the workplace, he was at an event with tickets provided by a client. He offended the client and he got fired for it, plain and simple. It has nothing to do with the Govt. or free speech.
When I'm out with clients, I keep my political opinions to myself. If I go out of my way to voice my opinion about something and I offend a client and cause potential damage to my company, they can terminate me. Quite frankly, if one of my clients offered me tickets to a Kerry rally, I'd have to politely refuse them. This guy like most liberals I know was obviously devoid of common sense. If the guy was Anti-Bush and knew he couldn't keep his mouth shut, he shouldn't have accepted the tickets.

My two cents!

[HardJedi]

right on , Gunny!

for SOME reason, som fairly intelligetn people are missing that point, no matter HOW hard I try to tell it to them.

oh well, no man is so blind, as he who will NOT see.

[al20852]

If he was "at an event with tickets provided by a client" then he wasn't at his workplace. Where does it end? In Iraq under Saddam Hussein, he'd have been killed, so I guess he came out ahead here. If there is any right we ought to be protecting, especially post 9/11 and post the Patriot Act, it is the right to state our opinion no matter what. If we suppress that right at home, then we should just bail out of Iraq because we are being hypocritical.

I don't know where you draw the line. I am not that smart. Maybe that's why the geniuses who wrote the Constitution didn't give us a line. They just said we all have freedom of speech. If we don't protect that right and protect the right of those we disagree with the majority to express themselves without fear of retribution or punishment, then we have no rights. It's no different than the right to bear arms, or freedom of the press, or the right to practice our religion.

[enviro]

It's real easy to understand where the line is. You can say what ever you please. Understand, though, that there may be consequences for spouting off at the mouth.

It's my constitutional right to hold an anti-immigration rally in downtown LA, but when I get my ass kicked, I won't go screaming that I don't have freedom of speech.

Sometimes, you never know just how stupid a person really is until they open their mouth.

This guy exercised his right to free speech and his employer exercised his right to can his ass.

[CplCrotty]

Right on enviro. I agree.
I wasn't surprised at all to see that this moron was a graphic designer with an ad agency. The agency should have known before handing out the tickets. Having worked in marketing and now as a commercial photographer, I can safely conclude that most of these ad agencies are full of "creative" types that are far to the left of the political spectrum.

[eddief]

HardJedi
I see the Kerry fanatics in the same way as I see the Bush fanatics. You will never catch me at a political rally for either side, because all those people to me are just sheep that want to be led to a slaughter. I don't hate these people. I really pity them and their children that will be living with the consequences no matter who wins, because Kerry believes in building up the American empire (although a more sensitive one) just like Bush.

[GunnyL]

al20852,

He was in the presence of that client at the event with tickets provided by the client. That makes it work!
If you work for a Design/PR firm or Sales Organization, it doesn't matter when you are in the presence of a client, be it in your office, at a social event, political rally, dinner, lunch or wherever, you represent your company.
If he knew he couldn't control himself, he should have declined to attend. The fact that the client provided the tickets should have given him a clue that the client was Pro Bush.
As was stated above by others, he wasn't perscuted or in any way harrassed by the Govt. He was fired by his employer for less than Professional conduct in the presence of a Client.

I guess that makes it 4 cents now!

[Sparrowhawk]

Originally posted by eddief
enviro
I wouldn't fire anyone for expressing opposing political views.

Heck with it, eddief

"They should have shot that SOB..."

LOL

[HardJedi]

nahh shooting was too good for 'em. tar and feathers woulda been better :D ;) LOL

[hrscowboy]

daaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaamn you boys are rough today.........

[CAR]

Wow, and we wonder how the truth gets distorted and why "the story" gets bigger and bigger.

I agree with Hardjedi,
1) Not even closely related to Government.
2) Has nothing to do with "freedom of speech"
3) Man was not at work, but at a work related function.
4) The guy himself even knows he was wrong.

As for comments to "we are free to speak our minds... Everything has limitations- I can drive a car legally, but not at 110 mph. I wonder what would happen to me if I decided to speak my mind the next time I pull someone over for speeding?????? Hmm should I try it? Common sense tells me not to, "COMMON SENSE" seems to be in short supply in this country.

Capt- plaese site me one ligitimate case in which a civilian has had their rights violated by the Patriot Act. Don't buy into the retoric.

[al20852]

CAR, I can't cite you an instance. But this whole issue troubles me a lot. I know we are under attack not just aborad but here at home. I also know that we have do things during wartime that we wouldn't otherwise consider (ex placing Japanese Americans in camps during WW II). And I can even accept the fact that an employer, unless there is a binding contract which prohibits it, can fire any of his employees for any reason.

But I also can't help thinking that the thing that makes the US unique is the ability to state an opinion contrary to the majority view without getting arrested or worse. Every time sometihing like this happens, I worry that the very things we are fighting for overseas might be getting overlooked here at home.

[Sparrowhawk]

Originally posted by al20852
But I also can't help thinking that the thing that makes the US unique is the ability to state an opinion contrary to the majority view without getting arrested or worse. Every time sometihing like this happens, I worry that the very things we are fighting for overseas might be getting overlooked here at home.

It is a shame, but attend any large political rally and if you have a anti-candidate poster or button that candidates police will harrass you or take your poster away, citing security reasons. They will book high school auditoriums and not allo kids into it that do not share that candidates views.

This is a recent issue, within the past decade that has escalated and the only alternative left is to sue the candidate for violating your first admenment rights, but that is too expensive and time consuming and all you can expect to gain is an apology in the end if that.


This has happened several times here in Southern California, I have seen it practiced more by Democrats, in Riverside, Rialto, Colton, Palm Springs, Los Angeles then in Republican functions, Riverside was the one incident I know of and that persons signs were returned immediately afterwards, but it does happen usually it may just be an over zealous campaign volunteer but it goes on.


SF

Cook

[al20852]

SparrowHawk, I remember during the Democratic convention therer were barbed wire enclosed areas set aside for "dissenters" and "protesters". Something about that troubled me at the time. I know that part of the justification for that was the terrorist threat.

Heck, all throughout our history there have been times when individual rights have had to be limited because of the greater good. From the Alien and Sedition Acts, to the suspension of habeous corpus during the Civil War, to the Japanese American Camps during WW II, and maybe even to the Patriots Act, we have been flexible and taken whatever steps we needed to to protect ourselves. We've always recovered, and the Constitution is as powerful a statement of individual rights as it has always been.

I'm just not sure where we draw the line. I don't think it makes sense to fight for individual freedom overseas and then suppress it here at home. We are much, much, stronger than that.

[Sparrowhawk]

just spend a few days at your old stumping grounds at the Washington Naval Yard, what was your duty there?

Need to go back and do some more research...



Cook

[al20852]

It's been over 30 years now. Probably wouldn't recognize the place.

[CAR]

If your looking for ways our freedom of speech is now being violated take a close look at the ACLU. They have turned into a crazed organization that fights for 1 persons "right" while failing to recognize the thousands they effect. Take a read on "www.tongue tied.us/" it has daily stories of how freedom of speech is being taken away for the ever so popular political correctness. Now a days I can't hate anyone, I can't offend anyone, I can't call someone a name, I can't dis-like homosexuality, I can't have a favorite team called the Redskins, Can't call someone Fat or Thin for that matter.... and on and on. When does it stop? I'm not worried about Bush trying to take away my freedom of speech, I'm worried about the liberal left lawyers and their judges.

I think it is HardJedi's quote (sorry if I get it wrong)
My words cannot offend you, you can only choose to be offended.

[GunnyL]

CAR,

AMEN!

[HardJedi]

Actually it's " you can only choose to take offense", but close enough :)


couldn't agree with you more though CAR