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MillRatUSMC
07-15-04, 01:43 PM
Survivor Guilt - a deep feeling of guilt often experienced by those who have survived some catastrophe that took the lives of many others; derives in part from a feeling that they did not do enough to save the others who perished and in part from feelings of being unworthy relative to those who died.

Related Words;
Guilt, guilt feelings, guilt trip, guilty conscience, post traumatic stress disorder, PTSD

While many died in the war, there are also many survivors who were profoundly affected. While one's survival is a joyous fact for one's friends and family, many survivors themselves find it hard to celebrate. They feel guilty that they survived the war and someone else did not. Many survivors question why they survived and someone else perished, particularly when their survival seemed to have more to do with coincidence or luck than some conscious choice. This reaction is called "survivor guilt" and it is a very normal response to a traumatic event. It is difficult for human beings to feel grateful for being alive while at the same time feeling intense sorrow for those who did not survive.

Now many of us, used words such;
"I'm living on borrowed time."
"I will live my life for those that died in the war"
Or "Am I living life to fullest, for the many that died in the war?"
Some of question the WHY of it all,

Recognize that the fact that you survived while others did not is a total mystery. No one can answer the ultimate question, "why" so try not to spend too much time trying to answer the unanswerable. Instead, look to find a purpose in your life and meaning in the things you can do as a result of having survived.

Don't let feelings of guilt keep you from responding to your own needs. There is a difference between mourning the losses and punishing yourself.

Recognize your powerlessness over any of the negative outcomes of the war and focus instead on the things that you have control over today. Being present-focused will help you channel your energy in the most productive way.

Consider turning to spiritual resources for help in finding a framework for the events that took place and for resolving strong guilt feelings.

I was at first going to go with the Vietnam War, but survivor guilt has been with us since war began.
Many went to their grave suffering and questioning the WHY of the madness named war.

<MARQUEE BEHAVIOR=scroll DIRECTION=left LOOP=infinite>The meaning of professionalism: P-People, R-Responsibility, O-Objective, F-Focus, E-Expectations, S-Standards, S-Safety, I- Integrity, O-Obligation, N-Knowledge, A-Accountability, L-Leadership, I-Inspire, S-Simplicity, M-Mission</MARQUEE>

http://www.geocities.com/millrat_99/cmem.html
My new and improved site on the Community Veterans Memorial.

"The saddest part of the job that I have undertaken is that the armed services by their nature, represent the last resort,
when rational solutions to the country's problems have failed."
~ Lt. Cmdr. Harry Mossman US Navy ~
Remains recover in 1992 and indentified recently.

"A man or woman is measured
by the footprint,
he or she leaves behind".

"They were the best you had, America,
and you turned your back on them".
~ Joe Galloway ~ Speaking about Vietnam Veterans

Semper Fidelis/Semper Fi
Ricardo

thedrifter
07-15-04, 02:52 PM
Good Post......

Thanks


Ellie

Sgt. Smitty
07-17-04, 09:48 AM
OUTSTANDING!!!!!!!!!! I know first hand about survivors guilt....been there, done that and it was a real mind bender to have to deal with it. Can't say as I'm completely over it, but I try to live each day to it's fullest for all our brothers and sisters that never got the chance. They will always be remembered and missed by me and my family. Sometimes I feel like they were the lucky ones because they didn't have to see how the govt. and this country have turned their backs on us for so long.

radio relay
07-17-04, 10:35 AM
It's kind of wierd, but I've never felt guilty per se. I did what I could, and gave what I could. Luck of the draw...etc.

However, I have a strong desire to make sure the sacrifice is remembered. And, to always remind people who haven't served, that our freedoms are owed to those who have died, as well as to those who have been maimed, as well as to their families. We cannot forget their sacrifice.

For me, in "Saving Private Ryan", the Capt (Tom Hanks) is dieing, and tells Ryan to "Earn This". That is the penance we survivors must observe every day of our lives. Pay those back who have given their lives or their physical well being, by living productive, honest lives, and never forget why we were spared!!!

"All Gave Some. Some Gave All."

Sparrowhawk
07-17-04, 11:29 AM
Everyday

Sparrowhawk
07-17-04, 11:50 AM
Originally posted by Sgt. Smitty
Sometimes I feel like they were the lucky ones because they didn't have to see how the govt. and this country have turned their backs on us for so long.

Sometimes I feel better, knowing that they died and did not see the anti-war protestors, the demonstrators against the war at home.

Because home was what we fought for, what we dreamed about, where our loved ones were, where we marked off the short timers calendar everyday and looked forward to that day. Home was where America was, home was suppose to be safe.

These men died because they were honorable men and God would not allow such brave souls to witness the disrespect of such foolish, selfish people at home, who would never experience or know the true value of life.

MillRatUSMC
07-17-04, 11:08 PM
I was think back to May of 1965, if a round had been a few inches closer, I wouldn't be here typing this.
I would have been another name on the Vietnam Memorial.
What now is known as Improvised Explosive Devices (IEDs).
We knew as Booby Traps.
Even if don't admit it, there was always the thought on your mind.
It could have been me, but by the grace of God.
Many came back questioning the Why of it.
Why did I survive, while others died.
Our tears were private, no one got to see those tears.
It wasn't because we were callous, it was a normal reaction in combat, without it you would have gone insane.
We did what we had to, without going into particulars or being graphic, it was madding the actions we were required to do before we could medvac the body.
We weren't what some now called "robotic", we had feelings.
Maybe that why some of us came back "angry" and the reception we got did nothing to improve how we felt.
We came back to indifference if not all out hostility, that too did nothing to improve our anger.
So that one reason, I was looking for answers to "Survivor Guilt".
I hope that I given you thoughts of what we endured and many more will have to endure before its all over in this war on terrorism...

<MARQUEE BEHAVIOR=scroll DIRECTION=left LOOP=infinite>The meaning of professionalism: P-People, R-Responsibility, O-Objective, F-Focus, E-Expectations, S-Standards, S-Safety, I- Integrity, O-Obligation, N-Knowledge, A-Accountability, L-Leadership, I-Inspire, S-Simplicity, M-Mission</MARQUEE>

http://www.geocities.com/millrat_99/cmem.html
My new and improved site on the Community Veterans Memorial.

"The saddest part of the job that I have undertaken is that the armed services by their nature, represent the last resort,
when rational solutions to the country's problems have failed."
~ Lt. Cmdr. Harry Mossman US Navy ~
Remains recover in 1992 and indentified recently.

"A man or woman is measured
by the footprint,
he or she leaves behind".

"They were the best you had, America,
and you turned your back on them".
~ Joe Galloway ~ Speaking about Vietnam Veterans

Semper Fidelis/Semper Fi
Ricardo

Choppergunner
07-18-04, 06:07 AM
I wasn't a Grunt, I was a UH-34D gunner, but I knew youse guys from flying you in and out of LZ's....no matter how small the area was we found a way to get to you when you needed us.

I often have intrusive thoughts of the medevacs I was on during my 2 tours in RVN - I have nightmares where I can taste the smell of blood that cooked upon the aluminum deck. It was my job to clean the blood out of the belly before our next mission ...
Today, I get physically ill 'tasting' that cooked blood.
It's 'survivor's guilt' which rocks me the most....and brings tears to my eyes when looking at my lithograph "REFLECTIONS".
I am here, and they are not.
WHY.....has always plagued me
It's why I'm still in ptsd therapy.

POPASMOKE MOTTO:
"The best medal was a live man's smile"
Youse Grunts have us combat aircrewmen in awe of what you did.
At least I had a base to return to...often in angst over not being able to retract a team of Marines stuck in the bush.
Yes, I have survivor's guilt.

Thanks for bringing this stigma of mental illness to light.
It's very difficult explaining the "Black Hole" to those who don't understand why, if you've no wound, you can't just get over it.

July '66 on this date, Operation Hastings was in full swing.
To all who fought on this day: greetings Marines
.....and, Welcome home.

Semper Fi
HMM-361 Flying Tigers
RVN '65 - '67

Choppergunner

Devildogg4ever
07-19-04, 05:33 AM
Some of the problems I have with survivor guilt are the times when at work they have a vets breakfast type deal, anything of that nature I usually don't attend! I find it hard to celebrate when I think of my brothers who are not here to do it with me! I quietly disappear!

snipowsky
07-19-04, 05:51 AM
Something I live with everyday! Rest in peace PVT. Jose A. Nevado! You will never be forgotten as long as I live!

Semper Fi bro and God bless you!

Sgt. Smitty
07-21-04, 08:18 AM
None of the people that never came back will be forgotten by this Marine whether they were Marines or not, they were still part of this generation that this country tried to sweep under the rug and ignore. Everyone that did come back has asked themselves at least once "WHY ME?" There is no answer.........I've looked for it since i came back from my second tour in the Nam. I'll go to my grave with that question in my head.

Namvet67
07-21-04, 08:48 AM
I've got a touch of it too....Thank god I don't have it everyday like Sparrowhawk. Seems to grab me most when I'm having a few cold ones with my brothers.

Sgted
07-21-04, 09:12 AM
The scope or "big picture" of what was going on around me when I was in country (for 19 months) didn't register. I thought I was in a safe place because I never actually engaged in combat. Oh, I heard distant fire fights and saw flares dropped and experienced rockets being dropped on the Da Nang airbase.
The first time I had contact with a hardened Cobat Marine was in the 1st Mar Div E-club one evening. Their unit (I never knew which unit) was passing through and they stopped for a couple of cold ones.
A few of us were engaged in conversation about the situation they had just come out of. A story was told by these men of a particular individual who was point. This Marine stepped on a land mine. I won't go into the gory details but will tell you that there was not much left of him as his fellow Marines helped him smoke his last cigartette. To this day, I want to know his name.
The chances of that happening are next to impossible.
But it haunts me.
The first Marine KIA I ever saw was in Chu Lai one day when I transported an officer to Graves Registration.
As he went about his business, I stayed with the truck. I had a view of a tent which was about 300 yards from me. The side flap was open and there was a body bag on a steel gurney. As I stood there smoking a cigarette a Marine walked over to the gurney and opened the body bag. What I saw was a young Marine, blonde hair (I don't know why that stands out) with black spots covering his body.
I thought, his parents, siblings or girlfriend don't know that hes gone but I do.
Then began a confusing series of thought that ran through my head.
For his family in the US, was he killed yesterday, tomorrow ?????
These thoughts made me crazy for a few days until I spoke with my Chaplain.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that, I too still suffer from survivor guilt. There was a time when I it overwhelmed my thoughts.
I cannot imagine what it was like for those who developed friendships, who saved and were saved only to loose those very men. Right in front of their eyes.
And those words "don't mean a thing" are dead wrong because, in the long run it means a whole hell of alot.
Survivor guilt is just part of what labels us as human.
To ease these thoughts I found that getting involved was a good thing.
I visited the Wall, even did volunteer work there for a number of years. Got involved with Veterans, their families, did Veteran fund raisers, did memorial services for fallen men & women.
My thought was to thank whatever force allowed me to survive so I could go on to serve my brothers.
It has helped but it will never go away.

I have ranted here and I apologise for saying too much that might be hard for some of you.
You can chew me out.

Sparrowhawk
07-21-04, 09:35 AM
Thanks Bro

you said it well.

Namvet67
07-21-04, 10:04 AM
Sgted...well spoken...what years where you there? Was the eclub you mention in the 1st Mar Div 11th Marine compound?

Sgted
07-21-04, 12:10 PM
Landed in Chu Lai at the LST ramp in May, 1966. <br />
Was moved up to Da Nang in November, 1966. <br />
Was in Da Nang till November, 1967. <br />
I extended my tour for 6 months while in Da Nang. <br />
<br />
You know gbudd,...

Sparrowhawk
07-21-04, 08:01 PM
Originally posted by Sgted
Call me crazy.....but talking about these things brings tears to my eyes.
Deep inside I want to go back to that time and place and "re-live" the experience. Is that unusual and do any others feel the same thing ??. Is it part of a deeper memory or experience that is not apparent ??.
I know most would not set foot on the soil of Vietnam again.

I would return and want to do so, just to sit for hours at the site of those battlefields.

...and yes, just thinking this makes my eyes water.

Reminds me of another post, another story that echos what you have said and my response, when a U.S. Navy ship returned to Vietnam last year.;




U.S. Navy ship Returns to Vietnam (http://www.leatherneck.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=10263&highlight=docked)



****************************

MY RESPONSE
****************************

Do you think.......
that while the Navy is docked in Vietnam they may be able to send a couple of guys just a few miles south pass the Song Thu Bon River, into an area we used to know as Arizona and pick up a young kid.

He's a skinny fellow about 19 years of age, helmet cocked on one side. People there say they still see him carrying the M-60 over his right shoulder. The kid ran out of ammo during an operation in that area sometime ago and has been in a dream like state for over 35 years.



Marine Corps records were never stamped showing he returned to the states, so they may find his shadow sitting with his back up against a gravesite waiting for the Marines to come back and get him.

All this time his soul has just been wondering around between that world and this world and sometimes I don't know which is which.

Semper Fi

Marines

Cook

Sgted
07-21-04, 08:32 PM
Originally posted by Sparrowhawk


I would return and want to do so, just to sit for hours at the site of those battlefields.

...and yes, just thinking this makes my eyes water.

Reminds me of another post, another story that echos what you have said and my response, when a U.S. Navy ship returned to Vietnam last year.;




U.S. Navy ship Returns to Vietnam (http://www.leatherneck.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=10263&highlight=docked)



****************************

MY RESPONSE
****************************

Do you think.......
that while the Navy is docked in Vietnam they may be able to send a couple of guys just a few miles south pass the Song Thu Bon River, into an area we used to know as Arizona and pick up a young kid.

He's a skinny fellow about 19 years of age, helmet cocked on one side. People there say they still see him carrying the M-60 over his right shoulder. The kid ran out of ammo during an operation in that area sometime ago and has been in a dream like state for over 35 years.



Marine Corps records were never stamped showing he returned to the states, so they may find his shadow sitting with his back up against a gravesite waiting for the Marines to come back and get him.

All this time his soul has just been wondering around between that world and this world and sometimes I don't know which is which.

Semper Fi

Marines

Cook

Thanks Cook......
Talk about making eyes water.

Stepping foot on soil that, at the time I was clueless as to how it would affect the rest of my life.
I left part of myself there that I need to go back and find, get reaquainted with.
Vietnam and the experience is the single most important chapter of my life.

Choppergunner
07-22-04, 10:07 AM
I live somewhere in the air between a hot LZ and a surgical tent, or a hospital ship while flying in the belly of a UH-34D with wounded Marines. Blood everywhere. I had dreams of 'red rooms' for years never knowing it was those medevacs.
Problem is for us aircrewmen was, we never knew if they made it or not...and that has been a problem of mine for years

My world is a red room filled with wounded Marines. I 'go away' at times when thinking of them..still wondering if those Marines made it or not. I never knew their names....like youse guys did; they were Brothers to me, and it was my job to save them, but I don't know who they are. It bothers me they may be on the WALL and I don't know it.
So many...I lost it on my first visit to The Wall in D.C. - anger overcame me and I smashed my camera on a post so that it can never take pictures of anything else....ever.

I'm still there too .
100% ptsd disabled.
....attend combat group therapy once a week,
and take meds which slow me down. (I hate them).

Always Faithful
Marines,

Choppergunner

Sgt. Smitty
07-23-04, 09:39 AM
It wasn't easy for any of us over there whether you were in the Bush or back in the support area. Anyone that came back alive will live with the eternally unanswered question "WHY ME?". There is no answer, and that frustrates the hell out of me. I came back in one piece, physically, after being missed by a piece of shrapnel that missed my head by less than 4 inches. It came from a rocket that landed less than 10 yards from me. (It also had Russian writing on it) I made a necklace out of it and wore it like a defiant banner to all the VC. I was young and invincable and nothin they could do could hurt me after that. That's what i thought until around 10 years after i got out of the Corps, then the survivors guilt set in and set me back a bunch or years. My ex told me that Nam screwed me up in the head big time and i needed some help. Well, after years and years of denial i finally had a good long talk with myself and started to realize that she was right. Then i saw the list of PTSD symptoms and my whole world fell apart right in front of me. Now all i can do is live every day one day at a time and try to live with all the GHOSTS of Nam. It's not gonna be easy for any of us that came back to deal with what this govt. put us through as kids. There is no way i could ever go to the Nam memorial in D.C. cause if i did they would have to carry me out of there. WAYYYYYYYY to many emotions to go through at one time for me now. I tried to live and forget, but there is no way in hell i can ever forget Nam. Semper Fi

Sparrowhawk
07-23-04, 10:29 AM
brings back memories...


Medevac (http://choppergunner2.homestead.com/FORUM5.html)

Choppergunner
07-23-04, 11:21 AM
Pleasure to be here, Cookie; I hope my presence isn't disturbing to anyone here.

You didn't pop any smoke....and I didn't just find you by accident.
I came looking for you and found a thread about survivor's guilt.
What's remarkable about that is, I found other's who feel like me.

No big surprise, but it is to me to find others who'll talk..... at all!!

To you all who've shared your stories, I salute you for having the gonads to speak up. I see this thread has many viewed...
If you've a story to share.....go ahead.
It sure helps me reading what ya'll have on your minds.
Maybe it'll help you.

as we say in the wing:
"Keep your turns up"

thanks for the welcome. Cook
Sempers M-60 brother