armys new combat uniforms

[Eric Robinson]

Once again the army is trying to be like the Marine Corps. The army just released the new combat uniform that is very similar to the Marines. The new uniform is a mix of light green, tan and gray. And it only comes in one style which personally I think is really really ugly. They also are being issued new tan combat boot that don’t shin. (Hmmmm just like that Marines) This change will occur stating in October 2005 and the entire army will be dressed by December 2007. If you ask me its just another case of the army trying to be like the Marines but once again they did a poor job of it.

[enviro]

Post a link dang it - ;)

http://www4.army.mil/news/article.php?story=6042


http://www4.army.mil/OCPA/uploads/medium/zipper2004-06-14.jpg

[Eric Robinson]

Shaffer thank you for the picture i couldnt get it on my post for some reason but at the same time not thanks it hurts my eyes

[enviro]

Velcro for wearing unit patch, skill tabs and recognition devices

They say this as an improvement? :thumbdown

[TracGunny]

On the Net:

New uniform: https://peosoldier.army.mil/default.asp?sectionacu

http://wire.jacksonville.com/pstories/20040614/2236749.shtml

In the second link article:
it is similar to the Marines' digital camouflage uniform except that it has no black in the pattern

[CAS3]

VELCRO? NEED I SAY MORE.....

[Osotogary]

Of course the noise factor never entered into the design equation. Who thinks these things up?

[CrazyBrave83]

Oso and Cas are right, the addition of velcro is utter stupidity.

Shaffer, since when are uniforms designed to look pretty? This is the military, not a fashion show.

[TracGunny]

Don't laugh too hard at the Velcro... I knew plenty of Marines who put Velcro on their cammies... DI's did it, NCOs & SNCOs in the FMF did it... The Velcro allowed the starched pockets to lay flat, thus providing a sharper look; you did not end up ironing the pocket buttons through the cammies thus rendering them unserviceable; in the field the pocket flaps were less likely to catch in the bush... etc...

I never did it to my cammies, and woe to the devil dog that got caught wearing the unauthorized alterations in an inspection...

The first time I saw Velcro on uniforms was on the old Sateens in '78 before they were phased out...

[mrbsox]

:no:

It's like Deer hunting....

ALL that camo, scent, cover, then throw 500 sq. inches of BLAZE ORANGE on top of it.

Maybe this is that DAZZLE-FLAGE they worked with years ago !!

[enviro]

CrazyBrave83 - I guess you think the new Marine Corps cammies are stupid as well - there's velcro on my pockets. That's how they were made....

And you are dead wrong about this not being a fashion show. Learn your history and you will find that the distinctiveness of the Marine uniform has saved many a Marine life and put the fear of hell in many of men's mind. From our high collars, 8 sided cover, and rolled up sleeves - the enemy has known who we are.

"Yellow Legs" (as the North Koreans called Marines) because of the yellow leggings Marines wore. N Koreans hated and feared the Yellow Legs.

"Do not attack the First Marine Division. Leave the yellowlegs alone. Strike the American Army."
- Orders given to Communist troops in the Korean War; shortly afterward, the Marines were ordered to not wear their khaki leggings to keep the enemy from immediately fleeing.

And I can go on and on citing examples -

[PooleeWebber]

I just think these new cammies are horrid. They remind me of the Marine Corps' urban combat cammies. These new Army cammies are supposed to be for forest, desert, and urban envoirnments? They seem like they'd stick out like a sore thumb in the desert and in the forest.

I hope they plan on making the body armor the same pattern as these new cammies when the time comes, because the tan and/or green colored armor would look horrible up against these new cammies.

Thumbs down! Marine Corps cammies are by far the best in the world.

[Tokean]

When they re-colored the Marine Corps design, do you think they remembered to remove all the little Eagle, Globe and Anchors that are integrated into the pattern?

And Enviro, what are some more of those examples? I like that one alot. But are is it real? or was it just an exagerated fact or something...?

[snipowsky]

ALWAYS TRYING TO BE MORE LIKE US! THOSE UNIFORMS ARE UGLY ASS HELL THOUGH. I'VE ALWAYS THOUGHT THE ARMY WAS A JOKE...NOW THEY JUST CONFIRMED IT FOR ME!

SEMPER FI!

[WillManning]

Originally posted by Tokean
When they re-colored the Marine Corps design, do you think they remembered to remove all the little Eagle, Globe and Anchors that are integrated into the pattern?

And Enviro, what are some more of those examples? I like that one alot. But are is it real? or was it just an exagerated fact or something...?

Read into the Korean War...

[enviro]

Yes the qoute is real. Instead of giving you a bunch of examples, you should read up on it. There's so much more to WHY we scared the hell out of our enemies. The uniforms didn't do it by themselves. The uniforms gave the enemy a way to identify us. Most of them had wise commanders that would choose their battles wisely.

Chesty ordered his Marines to take of the yellow leggings until an Army officer advised against it. He told Chesty that the enemy was afraid of the Yellow Legs. Chesty ordered his men to put them back on. - Read "Marine! The Life of Chesty Puller"

Somali's were at a relative calm when the Marines were in country. They respected (feared) us. A quote from that conflict:

They told (us) to open up the Embassy, or "we'll blow you away." And then they looked up and saw the Marines on the roof with these really big guns, and they said in Somali, "Igaralli ahow," which means "Excuse me, I didn't mean it, my mistake".
Karen Aquilar, in the U.S. Embassy; Mogadishu, Somalia, 1991

After a certain amount of order had been established the Marines withdrew and passed operational control to the U.S. Army. And it wasn't very long after that that the Somali militias began testing the waters and making aggressive actions in a way they never would have dared against the Marines. There was a terrible series of events which left Army Rangers surrounded and being killed in ferocious street fighting. It was a devastating time for the U.S. Forces.

[DSchmitke]

Just goes to show than the Army can't design their own uniforms. They always look like they just slept in the uniforms. with summer creases and there and every wherean Army of one.

[Patrick8605]

Army sucks. Go MARINES!!!!

[Echo_Four_Bravo]

Well, I think the Marine Corps digital cammies are horid, these are even worse. If they were to be worn only in the field, it would be acceptable, but no miilitary person should look that poor in garrison. Not having shined boots is a joke, not being able to iron and starch your uniform is making old Corps Marines roll over in their graves, and velcro on a combat uniform is just retarded.

There has been discussion of velcro here, so I will tell of my experiences with it. Yes, I was one of those people that thought the buttons needed to come off to give a better apperance. Plus, I actually thought that it would make sense to be able to get into my pockets easier in the field. While it worked for apperance sake, it did not work in the field. Darndest thing happened. All of a sudden I had grass, dirt, twigs, and mud sticking to the "furry" side of the velcro, leaving the pockets open at all times. The velcro simply wouldn't stick when it was all clogged up. I left radio info log books all over the place, had to dummy cord the ACOI to myself, was always leaving pieces of MRE's behind, and in general couldn't wait to get buttons put back on. This is in addition to being aware that I wanted something out of my pocket, but couldn't afford the noise velcro makes while opening. In my never humble opinion, it was the dumbest thing I have ever done, and I hate that so many others now have no choice.

[cjwright90]

Here is my opinion on this issue. I think the Army utilities are butt-ugly. I did not get to see the new digital cammies the Corps has, because of EAS. No problem,. I have seen pictures of them and I feel they are a good addition to our Team. I am a computer geek who sees tons of pixelated pictures. I saw a picture of a cammied up Marine in the bush wearing the new uniform and had a darned tough time seeing the guy. That to me seems like a very good reason to have them. If the enemy cannot see me, all the better. I would think that proves the argument right there.

[enviro]

We are going to have to disagree on this one Echo. Pictures don't do the unifrom justice. They are actually real nice looking up close. In addition, it is a far superior camouflage than any other pattern out there. This I have seen with me own eyes! The pattern blends in perfectly with surroundings. Take a picture on your computer and zoom in real tight - you see pixels. Now zoom to a normal size and it looks like everything is blending in just fine. No lines or squares. Looks natural. The same holds true for this uniform. From 10 feet, you would be hard pressed to spot a Marine using basic concealment techniques.

The boots are much more comfortable and are far more practical. Marines aren't turning over in their graves, because prior to the black spit and polish boots, these are the boots Marines wore. Starch and polish serve no purpose for a COMBAT utility uniform. The designers of this uniform have done a great job in making sure wrinkles and creases stay out of this uniform. These boots cut down on the blisters and the jungle rot a lot better. Plus they have that little eagle globe and anchor on the side - that's cool!

The velcro on the uniform is of the high speed type - quite and doesn't attract grass and twigs. Noise is not a factor for this uniform. Noise of opening up your flak jacket with the big ass piece of velcro holding it together is more of a noise hazard. Can't get to your uniform pockets without opening that one first. In addition, the face of combat has changed. Noise discipline isn't required as much because of the terrain and the tactics our enemy uses. We aren't sneaking through the jungles of Vietnam or the forests of Bosnia at this time. I admit we may find ourselves there in the future, but I'm sure the velcro on these cammies will be the least of our problems.

The ONLY thing I am disappointed in when it comes to uniforms is the gear don't match. Never has. Marines in Desert Cammies wearing Wooland Green gear - just don't make no sense.....

[cjwright90]

I agree, Kenny. Green on tan makes for a sure target. The pixelation is exactly what I was speaking about. The enemy can't see you, but they can target your flak vest. Don't they have some sort of cover to wear over that green?

[enviro]

I'm not sure if the new MARPAT covers are out for the gear. The old pattern covers are far and few in between. I noticed Braigade QuarterMasters is selling the pattern without the Eagle Globe and Anchor. Not really authorized, but I'm sure Marines are getting stuff from there.

http://www.actiongear.com

[Seeley]

sickening...

[WillManning]

Originally posted by cjwright90
I agree, Kenny. Green on tan makes for a sure target. The pixelation is exactly what I was speaking about. The enemy can't see you, but they can target your flak vest. Don't they have some sort of cover to wear over that green?

I don't think that the Marine Corps has anything to use to cover the "green gear". Would like to see how they plan on pixelating the vehicles and other "hard" gear.

[enviro]

There are covers for the flak jacks, ALICE Packs, and helmets. The 782 gear (canteens, ammo pouches, etc.) still stick out as green. Of course, those colors haven't changed since the Civil War.

[Echo_Four_Bravo]

Enviro, I agree. The uniform is GREAT (other than velcro) for COMBAT and FIELD wear. I just don't like it being worn in garrison. I know how they look up close, because I have a set in the closet (not the boots though, so I don't know about those. I picture them being much like the old desert boots though) If I need to hide from the bad guys, I want the new uniform. If I am looking at a morning formation of Marines, I would to see starch, creases, and mirrored boots.

[ks4oc]

Yes, I saw an article in some newspaper somewhere, where the Army ADMITTED it was trying to "emulate" the Marine Corps MARPAT uniform BDU's, but on a shoestring. What they did was use all the standard colors EXCEPT black.

As I understand it, if you look closely at the pattern of the major portion of the black coloring on the MARPAT uniforms, it gives an outline of Eagle, Globe and Anchor. I have a set of MARPATs and I have been able to pick out the pattern. Supposedly it was to reduce the incidence of friendly fire when looking at our Marines though IR goggles or other IR devices.

The army bdus don't take any of this into account. I have a nephew in the army, and even he has said they new uniform sux, and that he really likes the MARPATs that I have.

Just my thoughts on the subject.

Frank,

[Echo_Four_Bravo]

ks4oc, there is an EGA pattern in the new uniforms, but there is also a civillian version of it (not authorized for wear) that does not have it. If they REALLY wanted to be like Marines, they would have used it.

Has anyone seen the AF 8 point cover they are switching to? That is one that really gets to me. First they invade Arlington Ridge, then they steal our cover!

[Blindside8162]

I bought the civilian version of the MARPAT combat utilities from TruSpec and i use them for paintball. I can honestly say some people have not been able to see me from 20 feet away.

[yellowwing]

All the photos of Falluja show our Marines in the desert theme of the digital camo uniform. They blend in great to the mud brick built up areas.

Paintball is a rush! I've been trying to convince my home Indian Resevation to set up a course. Heck, set up a combat town and we'd get money from all sorts of military and police budgets.
:banana:

[pstinky]

I am amazed, not only at the Army's top brass, but also at the Air Force, because of the level of stupidity that they've shown concerning their new cammies. Not only are their poor decisions a waste of American tax dollars, they could potentially put the lives of Amercian servicemen at grave risk.

I think that over the next 10-15 years, their decisions will prove to have been very detrimental for their recruitment, retention, and effective warfighting capability.

At least our top brass has this in mind when they make decisions: We are Warfighters.

And we will continue to be victorious.

[TracGunny]

Last modified Sun., June 20, 2004 - 01:23 AM
Originally created Sunday, June 20, 2004

New Army uniform has looks that kill

By TERRY DICKSON
Times-Union columnist

If you have any stock in starch and shoe polish, sell now before it becomes worthless.

With the introduction of a new combat uniform, the U.S. Army has officially adopted a policy that allows wrinkles and embraces ugly shoes.

A new Army combat uniform, or ACF, will replace the battle dress uniform, or BDU.

Back in my day, we called our non-dress uniforms fatigues. We had the basic fatigues, which we put on freshly starched and pressed every morning we were stateside. In combat zones, we wore jungle fatigues. The recon guys got to wear camouflage jungle fatigues which made the rest of us jealous.

We were always rumpled in Vietnam. On long missions, resupply choppers would bring out freshly washed and wadded fatigues to replace the ones we had worn for 10 days straight.

On its 229th birthday last week, the Army introduced a tan and light-green camouflage outfit that will work in deserts and woodlands. With the new uniforms, soldiers will no longer have to change clothes when they change wars.

And the print pattern is a computerized pixilated pattern. Pixilated is what happens on cable TV during national championship games.

Some folks say these new uniforms look like pajamas and I'm inclined to agree partly because of the drawstring waist.

In emergencies, such as having consumed some bad rice paddy water, it is sometimes necessary to frequently and rapidly deploy one's trousers. I know this from personal experience. If one's drawstring becomes knotted, one might find the rapid deployment slowed considerably. The Army is famous for hurry up and wait. This is more a case of hurry up and can't wait.

The uniforms substitute Velcro and zippers for buttons. Zippers are OK, but Velcro?

Velcro rules out stealth in jungle warfare where it is important to be unheard as well as unseen.

Let's say you're sneaking through the jungle and you need something that's secured beneath the Velcro. You rip that open and it sends out the message, "Hey! Yoo-hoo! I'm over here.''

You might as well smoke a cheap cigar and play rap music on a boom box.

And then there's this mandarin collar that the Army says will make body armor more comfortable. I'm all for comfort, but in pictures this thing looks like a camouflage Nehru jacket or something.

The new uniform removes the rank from the collar and places it in the center of the chest and the branch insignias that officers wear will be removed altogether. The Army explained that some soldiers consider some service branches more prestigious than others.

Really? You would think the chemical branch's crossed laboratory retorts and the bands' gold lyre would demand the same respect as the infantry's crossed rifles and the cavalry's crossed swords.

I worry about losing the black boots, the ones soldiers coat with Kiwi wax polish and buff to a mirror glaze. If you're walking around an Army base in peace time, you need highly polished black boots.

Admittedly, in Vietnam you could always tell the new guy by his jungle boots. If he had any black finish left at all, he hadn't been in country long enough. Until he scuffed the toes and heels to raw leather, you looked at him with a sneer.

After saying all that, I heard someone on National Public Radio last week fire back at critics who called the new uniforms ugly. This individual said it doesn't matter how the uniform looks so long as it works. As she put it: I'd rather have my loved one in an ugly uniform than a beautiful coffin.

Who can argue with that?

terry.dickson@jacksonville.com, (912) 264-0405

http://www.jacksonville.com/tu-online/stories/062004/dic_15907454.shtml

[enviro]

Progress is impossible without change; and those who cannot change their minds cannot change anything.

--George Bernard Shaw

[grayshade]

The color sceam of the new Army uniforms is horrid, the velcro is by far a wrong mistake. "Even if Charlie can't see me, they sure as hell will hear me." The Marine cammies are alot more practical. And that's not because they're my brothers neither.

Oh well,

Semper Fi,

Grayshade

[enviro]

While I have no personal experience with the Army uniform, I do have experince with the new MARPAT uniform.

The pockets have velcro.

Our velcro is of the semi-silent design that doesn't pick up grass and briars, etc...

I'm would be willing to guess that the Army is using the same velcro. They used our pattern, I'm sure they used our velcro.

And again I point out that the flak jackets have the absolute worst kind of velcro and a ton of it. In combat, if you want to undo your top for whatever reason, you would first have to rid yourself of the flak jacket. The little squares of high-speed low drag velcro will be the least of your concerns.

And again from personal experience, anytime we have to maintain noise discipline, the flaks and blouses will not be removed.

God forbid if it is raining and you are wearing Goretex. Velcro is all over that thing! Even the old Gumby suits had velcro.

Changing a magazine in your M-16 makes more noise than the velcro. So does unsnapping your canteen or unfolding a map.

Velcro is a non-issue.

Their color scheme sucks. But, I do remember voting on the new Marine Corps combat uniforms and MANY people wanted the velcro and MANY people *****ed about the change. I have vigorously defending the change from day one. As a scholar of military history, I will tell you that it wasn't the first, nor the last.

The only time I was ever irate to the point of wanting to choke someone on this issue was when a wet-behind-the-ears PFC wrote a letter to the Marine Corps Times bashing the idea and saying it infringed on our traditions.

Now, you guys here that have been around much longer than I have, tell me, how many changes have taken place since you have worn the uniform??

The Army should be lambasted on their color decisions, but not the choice to change or the choice to use velcro.

Semper Fi

[TracGunny]

Now, you guys here that have been around much longer than I have, tell me, how many changes have taken place since you have worn the uniform??um... depends on which day that has passed since I retired is in question...